Installing Floor Tile Over Vinyl Flooring

[Jeff Wright]

I am having porcelain tile installed on our floors. One of our rooms currently has vinly flooring installed. It appears to be firmly attached to the terrazo cement floor underneath. The vinyl still has its shiny surface.

I just finished removing vinyl flooring in the kitchen prior to laying the porcelain and it was a big pain to do. I tried using my Fein Multipurpose tool without success. Ended up using a hammer and rigid window glazer's knife, chipping two inches at a time. I don't want to go through that again if I can help it.

1. Have you ever installed tile over top of vinyl?
2. Did you use a bonding agent prior to applying the multi-purpose thinset?
3. Did you abrade the vinyl surface (by sanding or some other method) to rough it up to help insure a better bond?
4. Has the installation held up without joint failures?

[Tom Henry]

I am no professional but I was told that any give in the floor would end up in a loose tile. I would say putting it on top would be a bad move.

[Matt Meiser]

My aunt just did her kitchen and every pro she talked to wanted to do it that way. Her house was built about 1978 and there was concern that the floor might contain asbestos. She was told that encapsulating it under a layer of cement board and tile is considered to be an acceptable method of managing it. In the end she did it herself and ripped up the vinyl and underlayment.

[Eddie Watkins]

It really is messy to take up. I have always pulled up the vinyl because it tends to come loose when it is exposed to moisture for long periods of time like when cement or grout is drying (DAMHIKT). By sanding it before you put down the tile, it could create cuts/openings to allow the moisture to penetrate easier. I personally don't believe it will stay down much longer than it takes a check to clear.
Eddie

[bill kiss]

If the existing vinyl is firmly attached, you can successfully put down tile over it. Scuff the surface for some bite and use a quality modified thinset such as Mapei's Ultraflex 2:)

[Paul Girouard]

Pull the vinyl up lay your tile on the cement.

Depending on your room you could use a big digging bar with a chisel like end on it . Or maybe rent a walk behind vinyl stripper .

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images/prod/1/16427.jpg


http://static8.ur.com/images/eqimages/587_m.jpg

The second one should work for vinyl , it may be hard to find if your not near a big city.

You really do not want to lay tile over vinyl , no matter who well it appears to be glued down. They also sell glue residue remover , a good floor shop or goggle to find out more on glue removal. If it doesn't scrap up with a razor knife scraper.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/ProductImages/7639140-11.jpg

They make that last one with a long handle and about a ten inch blade , not much fun but way better than redoing that tile work in a year.

[Chris Padilla]

What are the sizes of the tiles you plan to put down? The larger they are, the more they do not like deflections of any kind in the floor support but since you did this elsewhere in the house, odds are decent you are fine.

I see the flooring is attached to a cement slab. I do not know if this would help but in my very small (6'x5') bathroom I redid a few years ago, I simply choped up the vinyl flooring with my circular saw and a crappy blade set just deep enough to not cut into the subfloor but to cut through the vinyl and its underlayment. Vinyl smells awful (and I don't think it would be too good to breathe in anyway) when being chopped up like this so be forewarned...and good luck to you.

[Brian Weick]

You should not install Ceramic/stone/natural stone over an existing vinyl flooring with out a backer for the new tile,. In your situation there will be a weight factor as well - to many layers, to much movement, the result may be problems you don't want to have to correct ~you should not do it the way your intending to do it- you are asking for a nightmare Jeff - that floor - no matter what you use (and that's not correct either- specific applications for mastics) as an adhesive to go over existing vinyl flooring, it is going to move around and -hence cracking grout, loose tiles or cracked tile ~ You need to install a new backer - or "sub" floor first. If it were me, which it's not, I would remove everything on that floor down to the sub floor and start fresh , bust everything up and get it out of there and then when the sub floor is nice and clean start with a vapor beerier- #30lb felt then Use ether - concrete board or Hardy board - you can get away with using the 1/4" HB if the floor joists and the sub floor calculations are rigid enough to handle the weight (should be 3/4" sub floor /concrete or Hardy board for the backer and 16" oc spacing for the joists that should be at the least 8" in depth or more) Trowel thin-set over the Felt field using a 1/4" notched trowel first then install the hardy board in sections-no lateral joints should line up- use a stepping process - nail every 6" - I use a ribbed nail - they say you can use roofing nails- not a big fan of that choice - nothing to keep the shank in the sub flooring and I do not want the backer to become loose. then use a good thin-set mortar mix- latex thin-set application - use 3/8" square notched trowel or more- this helps you adjust for leveling the tiles on the entire field . Do NOT USE THE WHITE premixed adhesive- that should only be used on walls and not in a bathroom shower or where water is going to, or has the chance that it will come in contact with the tile grout area. - I don't use that type of mastic anyways, spend the extra money and do it write the first time- you will thank yourself later.
I do this for a living Jeff -I am a High end remodeling craftsman and you are asking for trouble if you try to bypass the proper steps for laying a good application for tile/stone on a floor/wall- what ever the application is ~ there is the write way, and then there is the- do it all over again way.
Do it write and you will be much happier with the results in the years to come. and do not forget to apply the proper grout; sanded grout is used for 1/8" gaps or more, non-sanded grout is used for 1/8" gaps or less and is a much finer grout- not usually used on floor grout gaps- they should be at least 3/16" gap in the flooring and no less from my experience in laying tile. Also- use a good quality grout and the proper sealer on the grout - something that will hold up for a long time- more expensive yes- more problems latter-no.
I hope this helps Jeff. :)
Brian

[Nancy Laird]

It's also easier to get that old tile up if you have a heat gun to heat up the mastic/glue/adhesive that's holding it down. It comes up soooo much faster and easier, and in larger pieces, too.

And don't remind LOML - we have about 800 square feet of vinyl to get up before we lay our parquet!!

Nancy (18 days)

[Jeff Wright]

A lot of great suggestions from many of you. Thanks! The views are conflicting, with no real concensus. I called the thinset manufacturer who said their product was fine to use over vinyl flooring if that flooring was securely attached to the cement underneath and that I first used TileLab Heavy Duty Cleaner Stripper on the vinyl first to etch it. My tile setter is using a system where he first spreads the thinset on the floor surface, then puts down a mud, then butters the tile with more thinset and sets the tile.

When I removed the vinyl flooring in the kitchen, the vinyl flooring came up ok but the glu residue was what concerned me. That is what took hours to get off. I was concerned that the thinset on top of that glue residue would not work well together.

As it stands now, I believe I will use the TileLab stripper on the vinyl, then after it dries take a coarse sander over the vinyl flooring prior to laying the thinset directly on the vinyl flooring.

Just as a point of interest, the kitchen had had a ceramic or porcelain file laid over that old vinyl flooring ten years ago and showed no failures. That gives some reason for hope in leaving the vinyl down in the other room.

[Brian Weick]

hear me out here~ OK? something for you to think about after it's completed ~- that expands and contracts like you would not believe- /consider the materials expansion/contraction deflection rate, not to mention the adhesion problem,,,,,-do yourself a favor, for your own edification-and save yourself a lot of aggravation and time, and best of all it will be done wright, above installation requirement standards- a floor that will last a lifetime if maintained properly.
experiment time: take some of that thin-set from the wonderful guy there that told you it's OK to use over Vinyl flooring for the adhesion of ceramic tile. take some scrap vinyl flooring 16" square foot - a scrap piece, doesn't matter what the brand is, none of that matters, just the same type~ ,then trowel that thin-set he recommended using the same notched trowel size your going to use for the project and run the farmers plantation "the grooves left by the trowel" with the thin-set in one direction- , do the same to a 1/4" hardy board 16" squared, after that dries , per their instructions ~ place them over 2x4's on each end and push down with your index finger in the center causing a sudden depression on the both test examples ~ watch what happens- ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this is my point exactly - - sometimes, actions speak louder than words ~ just trying to save your floor and your back Jeff - :) , just my opinion buddy:)
Brian

[bill kiss]

Brian, I respectfully disagree with your opinion. His floor is concrete which is plenty stiff with no deflection. Aquality modified thinset is designed to work on 1 layer of vinyl tile provided it is well adhered. Product data sheets from both TEC and MAPEI spell this out very well. :)

[Brian Weick]

I do this for a living Bill and I have been installing ceramic floors for over 20 years - and to be point blank ~ It is highly not recommended Bill, your taking your chances and I have seen massive problems from clients that I have acquired- they hired someone that installed it wright over the vinyl flooring with disastrous results after a short time, tile popping up, grout cracking , tiles cracking ~ just as the mastic product said~per their instructions. What a manufacturer tells you is another story, the roofing nails is a case in point- I never use them, I have witnessed problems with this type of installation as well ~ I have lost just a few jobs because the client wanted to skip the backer board installation - I will not install ceramic tile/stone/marble over a vinyl floor- I am more concerned about the job being done correctly and with attention to detail ~ period! read this and maybe you will have a different opinion.

http://www.floorstransformed.com/installnotes.html


http://www.floorstransformed.com/ceramic_tile/messages/23423.html

No offense Bill- really- I just am trying to save him from a disappointment later, there are other ways,proper ways, to apply a good tile installation, or remove the vinyl flooring. I look at it this way , when it gets into layers- I did not install those layers of flooring, I don't know what is actually under the vinyl flooring - that's why I like to start from scratch,if at all possible, so i feel better about the substrate before the tile application - or at least see what I am dealing with under the Vinyl flooring. I just do not agree with this method of tile installation. again Bill- no offense buddy-really, I am just trying to help him avoid a problem later-:)
Brian