Lamello Fixo

[Jerry Mah]

Has anyone had any experience with these new "biscuits"?

http://www.lamello.com/en/downloads/application-videos/wood-joining-system/joining-wood/fixo-the-self-clamping-biscuit.html

I've tried to find out more information about this new product.

I'm curious to see how they compare in versatility and strength with dowels, pocket hole screws, and of course Festool's Domino.

[Will Blick]

I use them, their claim to fame is, they are FAST! They are also very effective at pulling the boards tight. I initially experimented leaving a 1/32" gap between the boards, one bang with the hammer, and the biscuit pulled the boards VERY snug... so this is where the speed comes in, cut a slot, glue, smack, DONE.... no clamps, no waiting.

Of course, like all joinery techniques, they have a place, but is not suited for everything. There is stronger joinery techniques, but quite often, max. joint strength is not an issue.... so, if you value time, more than money, these are truly a brilliant invention. For high volume, a bit costly.

Be sure to use the small metal tool provided to drive the fixo all the way to its limit, otherwise, it can open the gap on the opposite side....

[John Stevens]

After seeing the movies and reading what Will said, I'm not sorry I bought the Domino...but here's one more reason I'm glad I didn't sell the Lamello. Gotta have some of these on hand.

Regards,

John

[Bill Roland]

Got to get some of those for several projects I have to do. They look like they have a good thing going for certain applications.

[Chris Padilla]

I'm curious to see how they compare in versatility and strength with dowels, pocket hole screws, and of course Festool's Domino.

Not to go too off-topic here but I think biscuits would be at the bottom of the strength category. I prefer to think of them as alignment tools versus strength tools.

[John Stevens]

Not to go too off-topic here but I think biscuits would be at the bottom of the strength category. I prefer to think of them as alignment tools versus strength tools.

I dunno, I think you're on topic. I agree with your thoughts about the strength, although they should strengthen narrow "butt" joints that rely on glue for strength. Sorta like the technique of using clear packing tape to "clamp" a box together, but with more pressure for the glue. I'm pretty surprised at how much abuse a joint like that can take.

Regards,

John

[Will Blick]

Considering the Fixo is not really a biscuit, cause you don't glue it... at least that is what the instructions say....I would not classify it as a strong joint, as often you have end grain to end grain glue line.

Its only purpose is two join the two boards together tight with no clamps. The glue at the joint is where the strength is.... and agreed, its NO Domino, its NOT a dowel, etc. I would consider these Fixo's great for low stress joints where time is money, they will pay for themselves as they are so easy to use.

OTOH, the "short" Fixo biscuit has a very unique application, as it will join together a box, at the miter top / bottom..... the example in the videos is of an hexagon. It provides excellent clamp pressure at the desired angle, something not easy without time consuming set ups.... The Fixo is very little effort..... so in this application, I would suggest it's a much welcomed newcomer to the crowded joinery market.

[Tom Veatch]

Has anyone had any experience with these new "biscuits"?

http://www.lamello.com/en/downloads/application-videos/wood-joining-system/joining-wood/fixo-the-self-clamping-biscuit.html

I've tried to find out more information about this new product.

I'm curious to see how they compare in versatility and strength with dowels, pocket hole screws, and of course Festool's Domino.

Watched a couple of those videos. I'm very likely missing something, but I didn't see where there's much conceptual difference between them and the old corrugated fasteners (http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14043/css/14043_103.htm).

[Bill Huber]

Watched a couple of those videos. I'm very likely missing something, but I didn't see where there's much conceptual difference between them and the old corrugated fasteners (http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14043/css/14043_103.htm).

The big difference is these pull the joint together, the old corrugated ones just held things where they were.

I have a friend that uses them and it is really need to see the glue just come out of the joint when you hammer them down.

[Jerry Mah]

The big difference is these pull the joint together, the old corrugated ones just held things where they were.

I have a friend that uses them and it is really need to see the glue just come out of the joint when you hammer them down.
Bill-
What would you say the strength of these joints would be?

[Karl Frey]

Bill-
What would you say the strength of these joints would be?

The strength of a joint using Lamello FIXO self clamping biscuits will vary depending on the type of wood, the thickness, the densisty, etc. Also, in most cases glue is recommended and of course that will increase the strength. A test was done by Lamello Switzerland using various types of wood *without* glue, it is a simple tension, pull strength test measuring how much force it takes to pull apart the joined pieces with ONE self clamping FIXO.

Particle board joined with one FIXO has average strength of 1850 Newtons or 416 pounds force.

Beech joined cross grain with one FIXO has an average strength of 3000 Newtons or 674 pounds force.

A question was asked... "why not just use a corrugated fastener?" Depending on the joint and what species of wood, corrugated fasteners sometimes split the wood. Also, the FIXO will be precise and strong.

FIXO self clamping biscuits are strong, they are fast, they are easy to use. They reduce clamp time, reduces space due to no clamps, they increase production because they are fast. If anyone is interested in trying a few just let me know, I'll be happy to send you a sample.

Karl Frey
Lamello Product Manager
www.csaw.com (http://www.csaw.com)

[Will Blick]

karl, how did these Lamello joint test results compare to other fasteners? Isn't that what they should be tested against?

I like the Fixo's, but you must be careful with them. When using thicker woods, if you don't place the Fixo deep enough, it pulls the back of the joint ultra tight, and opens up the other side of the joint a bit. Other than that, I am impressed with the product.... the only factor IMO that will prevent it from becoming mainstream is the price..... where pocket screws will suffice, they are almost as fast, and much stronger.

For mitered boxes though, I think the Fixo application is very unique, as the Fixo clamps the joint with the force exerted in the "ideal" direction, creating a perfect mitered corner. Achieving this same directional force with clamps can be very time consuming.

Question: why does the instructions suggest NOT gluing the Fixo itself? I would think this would only add to strength?

[Russ Sears]

Do the Fixo's work with any plate joiner?

[Karl Frey]

karl, how did these Lamello joint test results compare to other fasteners? Isn't that what they should be tested against?

I like the Fixo's, but you must be careful with them. When using thicker woods, if you don't place the Fixo deep enough, it pulls the back of the joint ultra tight, and opens up the other side of the joint a bit. Other than that, I am impressed with the product.... the only factor IMO that will prevent it from becoming mainstream is the price..... where pocket screws will suffice, they are almost as fast, and much stronger.

For mitered boxes though, I think the Fixo application is very unique, as the Fixo clamps the joint with the force exerted in the "ideal" direction, creating a perfect mitered corner. Achieving this same directional force with clamps can be very time consuming.

Question: why does the instructions suggest NOT gluing the Fixo itself? I would think this would only add to strength?

I am not aware of any comparisions with other fastening methods at this time, but I will look into it and suggest it.

I concure that when using the "L" style [long shape] in a face application, by setting the FIXO in the back, the tighter that backside gets, means that it eventually it opens the opposite side. Also as pointed out, the thicker the wood, the more it will occur. However it does'nt always happen, it can be controlled somewhat with the amount of tension one applies when setting the FIXO and the tighter the pieces are together before setting, the less it will occur. Some users have jigs set up and that seems to make a difference. Also, stacking a weighted piece on the front side of the joint until the glue dries can solve that issue.

I also agree that "H" style [horizontal] FIXO's are very beneficial in miterd boxes, especialy when they are unusual shapes or any application where clamps sometimes difficult to use.

Regarding the instructions not recommending gluing the actual FIXO biscuit... In most cases, water based PVA and alphatic resin adhesives do not adhere well to platics, they are best suited for more porous materials such as wood. Unlike a beech wood biscuit that is designed to swell and strengthen with cured glue, the plastic FIXO does not react the same way. However the glue adhered wood joint is very strong, and a glue joint with beech wood biscuits is even stronger.

Will, thanks for sharing your experiance and practical use of FIXO with the group. All comments and questions are appreciated. The offer for samples is still open to anyone.

[Karl Frey]

Do the Fixo's work with any plate joiner?

Yes they will work with any biscuit joiner that can cut a #20 slot

[Will Blick]

> Also, stacking a weighted piece on the front side of the joint until the glue dries can solve that issue.

Possibly, but IMO, that defeats the biggest benefit of the Fixo - SPEED! What I like about the Fixo is, you can be relatively sloppy with your joinery, work fast, and still have a fabulous joint. When I first got my Fixo's the first test i did was to separate the boards about 1/16th of an inch, I whacked two Fixo's down, and whamo, the boards were so tight, the joint was almost usable with no glue... leave it to Lamello to revolutionize a biscuit!

As for the front/back issue.... I would suggest some better documentation. Here is the key :-)

Cut your biscuit slot deep enough so that the Fixo will be a bit more than 1/2 way through the wood thickness... the metal tool that comes with the Fixos allows one to hammer the Fixo down below the surface of the wood. If you center the Fixo's, both sides of the joint are equally pulled tight...

Karl, that might cost ya few samples, as I wasted a bunch of them experimenting to figure this out :-)

[Will Blick]

Karl, since you are a biscuit guru.....

When edge joining ply, a biscuit will swell, creating slight bumps above the biscuit locations. But will the swelling return to normal in due time? With all woods? All biscuits? How long till the swelling noticeable, how long till the swelling subsides?

If you want to avoid this swelling, is it better to use an epoxy glue?

[Nathan Odle]

On the topic of glue:

Since PVA and alphatic resin aren't appropriate, then a polyurethane glue like Gorilla Glue or Elmer's Nano may be just the ticket if you're intent on gluing the plastic Fixo biscuit itself. Polyurethane glues are good at gluing plastics to wood, and are ridiculously strong as we all know. I may do some testing on this myself when I receive my samples!