Buying rough sawn lumber

[Dave Stoler]

Hope you guys are kind to new guys with simple questions. I,m about to buy some cherry lumber. I have a 6 in jointer, 12 in planer and a table saw.
When I go to the sawmill I would like to have at least a basic idea.Of what to ask.
Plus..What is a average price?

[John Thompson]

You want to refer to thickness as 4/4.. 6/4.. 8/4.. 12/4.. etc..
Four (4)= 1" inch. Consequently 6/4 is 1 1/2", 8/4 is 2".. etc.

Then you need to make the call on how many sides you want already surfaced..
S-1.. S2.. S-3.. S-4... Rough

S-1 is one face surfaced.. S-2 is 2 surfaced.. etc.. etc... Rough is self descriptive.

What you will find is that most suppliers will have stock averaging between 5" and 8" as a saw-mill cut will usually taper as the tree did going to the top.

With a 6" jointer you will either have to rip amn 8 wide piece to get it through or make a dual pass on your 6" jointer by removing the guard and adding a temporary over-head bridge guard you make. And I don't suggest you do that if you are anything but experienced with a jointer.

So... go buy some stock as any good hard-wood supplier will be glad to help you wade through details. As far as price.. I won't go there as it varies from region to region and you did not post a location. That makes it difficult for anyone to even venture a guess.

Have fun...

Sarge..

[Don C Peterson]

Welcome to the Creek!

It sounds like you are pretty well set up to prep lumber, but your question is really hard to answer. It depends on the project you have in mind and it also depends on your experience level.

I usually ask for FAS lumber, and usually plan for about 20% waste. That number could be quite a bit higher if you want to avoid the sapwood completely, but some folks like the contrast...

As for prices, they are all over the board, depending on where you live. In my area 4/4 FAS Cherry goes for anywhere from $3.45/board foot to $6.80/Board foot. If you are buying direct from a mill, I would expect the price to be towards the lower end of that range (at least that's where I find the prices are cheaper)

[Dave Stoler]

Now I have a base to work from..And after a search of threads on the subject at least i have a idea.
Seems from what i,ve gathered is that letting the mill do a bit of the rough work is good as long as the price is within reason.
Cleveland ohio area.

[Greg Cole]

Dave,
I agree on the 20% overage. If you are just a tad short, it's murderous trying to make grain-color etc from one lumber purchase to another for the same project. If nothing else, you wind up with some leftover for the next project or to have on the rack.
Honestly, I enjoy a day of rough lumber prep. Seeing the grain pop out of the sawmill fuzz & drying haze..... machining to YOUR desired thicknesses & width or what the stock will allow is nice IMO.
You are paying for the shavings & machine time when you buy S4S material, ya might as well get use out of the tools you already paid for & get the hours of experience on the tools too.
The rough lumber prep to S4S material isn't as daunting once ya make up your mind to do it.

Greg

[Don C Peterson]

I usually prefer to buy lumber rough sawn. Why? I want to see and choose for myself which sides to clean up and use rather than have the mill do it. They don't know what I have in mind, and they don't have time to care. Besides, I wind up shooting straight edges anyway and the mill may surface a face, but that doesn't mean that the piece is actually flat.

So, I wind up doing the work anyway, after I paid the mill an extra $.20 a board foot to do it.

[Brad Shipton]

I too purchase only rough sawn. S2S/S4S is never straight or true enough and in my neck of the woods the upcharge is significant. The other issue, is you will not truely know the straightness until you have rough sized to the req'd piece dimensions as cutting releases internal stresses within the wood and bending can occur requiring yet further milling. I find the milling enjoyable too, and friends are always surprised when I show the final pieces v. the starting stock.

Good luck, and everyone is very helpful here.

[Gary Keedwell]

I like rough sawn lumber too, but there is a downside. Just like it is pleasing to see some of the hidden wonders when it is milled, it is also risky because you can uncover some nasty stuff you wasn't expecting. :( And you usually can't bring it back.
Gary

[Steve Milito]

I have also found some things increase cost for cherry:
1) Is it red on both sides or one.
2) Thicker wood cost more per board-ft
3) Does it have a nice grain pattern (ie 'figured')
I have picked up nice cherry, one side red, 4/4, standard grain for $3.00
Really nice cherry, 8/4, red both sides, good figure will go for well over $6.00.
12/4 would have been over $8.00 and up.


Maple is sort of the same, except the cost for board-ft of 12/4 highly figured maple soars.

[Don C Peterson]

I like rough sawn lumber too, but there is a downside. Just like it is pleasing to see some of the hidden wonders when it is milled, it is also risky because you can uncover some nasty stuff you wasn't expecting. :( And you usually can't bring it back.
Gary

True, but I've had the same thing happen with 1 and 2s lumber too, the risk is a bit higher with rough, but it's there with both. The converse is also true, you can find some interesing and beautiful things too. My last order of Ash had two boards in it with some pretty remarkable curly figure. Figured Ash isn't something you come across every day...

[Sean Kinn]

Check out the "Wood Whisperer" website. Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about. There is a nice (and humorous) video that explains the basics of buying rough lumber.

[Dave Stoler]

Many thanks guys...Truely appreciated..I guess now it,s a matter of finding a good mill.

[Gary Keedwell]

True, but I've had the same thing happen with 1 and 2s lumber too, the risk is a bit higher with rough, but it's there with both. The converse is also true, you can find some interesing and beautiful things too. My last order of Ash had two boards in it with some pretty remarkable curly figure. Figured Ash isn't something you come across every day...
At least if the lumber is at least "skip milled" you can see something. I had a batch of maple that I wanted as light as I could find. I picked the boards I thought would be great but when I brought them home and milled them there was alot of "dark" that I didn't want. If I had the chance to pick the maple already milled, I could have seen the actual color.:)

gary

[Jim Thiel]

I'd point you to Mike Morgan Dave. He has a forum in the manufacturers section, and he hauls stuff around quite a bit. You might strike a bargain with him.

Welcome to the creek.

Jim

[Dave Stoler]

After watching a video I have one last question..Quarter sawn,rift sawn or flat sawn?

["Jason Belous"]

My father taught me a valuable lesson when purchasing rough sawn lumber and that is to always take a small hand plane with you and to do a surface check so that you are aware of what you are getting, usually if it is air dried it will grey and youll need to rediscover the wood. Also build yourself a nice straight line sled for your table saw with a piece of ply and some clamps.

[Scott Loven]

I got 200 bf of cherry from a guy with a saw mill for $.60/bf. It was air dried outside for about 3 months when I got it.

[Paul Johnstone]

Now I have a base to work from..And after a search of threads on the subject at least i have a idea.
Seems from what i,ve gathered is that letting the mill do a bit of the rough work is good as long as the price is within reason.
Cleveland ohio area.

Check out hartville tool, they have a good selection. They have a big sale every november (you just missed it) and Feb.

Also, check out Willis Lumber. I think they deliver anywhere in Ohio if you order 500 board feet. Not 100% sure on the limits of this.. Anyhow, I get friends and family together on group buys from Willis. It's a good deal as well. Also, you get a price break depending on how much you buy, so that's another reason to get the buddies together on a big order. They have a website that you can google for (they are in Washington Court Huse)

To me, it's also worth getting FAS grade. Although if you are making something with a lot of smaller pieces, you might save a little money by using a lesser grade. It does add more time into the project to plan around more knots/defects though.

[John Thompson]

After watching a video I have one last question..Quarter sawn,rift sawn or flat sawn?

Again... a personal choice depending on what you want to spend and if QS is even available at the moment you need it in the species you have chosen for the project.

The majority of lumber these days is "flat" sawn as that method leaves less waste and more to take to market. So... count on finding "flat" sawn with no problem. And... with flat sawing it will produce some "rift" sawn as that's just the way "flat" sawn will come off the log when flat sawing. So there is usually a mix of both in stock you have to chose from.

QS is going to cost you more money as again... the nature of how you have to quarter it will produce much narrower stock. But.. it is more stable with climate and weather changes than FS and well worth the extra $$ in given situations.

Personally, I would love to use QS in every situation if it were available regardless of extra cost and usually more glue up. But.. it's not always so I definitely want it for table tops, etc. that are wide and prone to have more movement. Flat and Rift are fine for face boards and carcass work as long as you consider it is flat or rift and in-corporate that thinking as you prepare joints, etc.

Hope that helps as I have to go rag down some Danish oil that got applied a few hours ago. Finishing is not my favorite thing to do as it involves more work than chosing stock and construction. It's just a necessary evil as I see it... but one that will bite back if you don't have patience and try to rush it or take short-cuts. :)

Sarge..

[Greg Cole]

Ditto what Jason said about the sled.
Having a sled to "SLR1E" (stright line rip one edge) is very valuable with rough lumber. That straight face will be your reference for a few steps on the way to making S4S lumber. Also break down longer lengths to make the flattening of both faces & edges easier, assuming you get longer lengths. It's easier to manage 4-5 footers that 8-9 and the machining is much more accurate on hobbiyist sized tools that way. Feeding 12 footers through a lunchbox planer (never mind attempting face jointing) is a task for one man in a garage err, shop. DAMKHIT.
Lastly, you'll be able to cut out the badly twisted, bowed, cupped, warped sections then to save time & material when planing & jointing.

Greg

PS- Love that #6 Sarge... she's ULTRA sharp, waxed & happily making curlies.

[Doug Shepard]

The place I get most of my hardwood is real reasonable on milling charges. If I'm getting boards that exceed my 6" jointer's width I'll often have them just do one face. The edges I can do at home and the other face too as long as I don't go past my planer's capacity too. Dont think I'm likely to run into that problem too often though.

[John Thompson]

Ditto what Jason said about the sled.
Having a sled to "SLR1E" (stright line rip one edge) is very valuable with rough lumber. That straight face will be your reference for a few steps on the way to making S4S lumber. Also break down longer lengths to make the flattening of both faces & edges easier, assuming you get longer lengths. It's easier to manage 4-5 footers that 8-9 and the machining is much more accurate on hobbiyist sized tools that way. Feeding 12 footers through a lunchbox planer (never mind attempting face jointing) is a task for one man in a garage err, shop. DAMKHIT.
Lastly, you'll be able to cut out the badly twisted, bowed, cupped, warped sections then to save time & material when planing & jointing.

Greg

PS- Love that #6 Sarge... she's ULTRA sharp, waxed & happily making curlies.

Not much to not love with a LV #6, Greg. Glad you are enjoying it as it needed a good work-out. The LV design is out-standing IMO..

Sarge..

[Dave MacArthur]

Dave,
concerning flat/rift/quarter sawn lumber:

There are two areas to consider, the wood movement and the look.
Wood movement: consider the grain in the wood as if you were looking at the top of a tree stump/log. The yearly growth ring is the grain. When wood gains moisture, the entire ring will swell and exert pressure around the circumference of the tree. This pressure normally cancels itself out. However, when you cut a board from the log, the rings don't "end on themselves" and thus cancel out the pressure. Flat sawn wood goes tangent to the ring--that is, as the ring swells and expands, the board will actually WIDEN because it is just a tangent slice of ring. Rift sawn wood will also widen, but not as much. Quartersawn means the tree rings go through the thickness of the board, so most of the expansion goes to making the board a bit "thicker" rather than wider.
Because flatsawn lumber usually has edges that are rift sawn, and the center is flatsawn (if it slices across a whole trunk), the changing expansion rates between the center and edges can result in cupping of the board.

Look:
The main effect of look comes from the "rays" being exposed in quartersawn. This is structure that goes from the center of the tree outwards, and is more noticeable in wood that has a large or coarse "vessel" cells or pores, like oak. In fact, wood that does not have seasonal growth patterns (many tropical woods have less pronounced rings) will exhibit much less pattern. Tree rings are comprised of a set of both annual growth rings: the springwood (early wood), which is a wider and lighter area, and the summerwood (latewood), which is darker and more compact. In tropical wood, no discernable rings may be present as growth is continuous, and not seasonal; wood with these conditions is said to be even-grained.

Please read this thread:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=60075
It is BY FAR the best single visual explanation of the different looks/combos of flat/rift/quarter sawn woods I've ever seen. He made many frame/panel combos of the different sawn wood for you to look at, check it out!

Also, for a really great review on basic wood anatomy and charicteristics, read this (I'm not big on the organic jewelry aspect, but it is a phenomenal paper!):
http://www.organicjewelry.com/woodanatomy.html Skadsen, Erica Nicole. "Basic Wood Anatomy and Behavior."
organicjewelry.com/woodanatomy.html April 2007.



Good luck!

[Lance Norris]

I guess now it,s a matter of finding a good mill.

Someone mentioned Hartville Tool. I agree, they have a good selection of hardwood. They are just a little high on the price, but the quality is good. If you dont mind a little road trip, Check out Keim Lumber in Charm, Ohio. If you have never been to a real lumber dealer, you will be amazed. Its well worth the drive. They have just about every domestic and most imported hardwoods and have lots of lumber grades, so if you want to save some money and buy the lower grades, you can. They are pretty decent on price and if you are looking for something unique, they are the place.

[Rick Gifford]

If you dont mind a little road trip, Check out Keim Lumber in Charm, Ohio. If you have never been to a real lumber dealer, you will be amazed. Its well worth the drive. They have just about every domestic and most imported hardwoods and have lots of lumber grades, so if you want to save some money and buy the lower grades, you can. They are pretty decent on price and if you are looking for something unique, they are the place.

I am up that way from time to time. I haven't stopped in at Keim but now I certainly will. Thanks for the heads up. Now I have another reason to go that way and get more cheese at Heini's and some wood on top of it :D

[Mike Harrison]

How much are you planning on getting? Some mills don't care how much, or how little, you purchase while others only sell in 100bf incriments. Usually 100bf lots are cheaper.

The most important question to ask is, whether or not you can look throught the material, prefacing that with, promising to put things back as you found them. If the answer is yes, make sure you do it!

To save a little money know how much FAS, select and #1 common you can use. No sense cuttin up hi dollar FAS for stuff that won't show. Often face frames can also be made from select and #1.

Watch the color match, or contrast.

Second most important thing is to select only the straight, flat boards, no cupping and no wind. Being rough cut and being flat are two distinctly different things. This will save you countless hours of prep time and the price is the same.

Speaking of price, I don't have a clue what the going rate is. I have always found a tree trunk and hauled it to the mill to cut and dry. I usually pay 50 to 75 cents a foot for both. Granted, my selection is limited to what I can find locally but the price is great. A good reason to get to know the tree trimmers in town.

[Dave Stoler]

Turns out this guy does this as a side line at his farm. Has I bandsaw type saw mill..
He planes both sides and takes it to a thickness of 13/16..
He grades from A+(premium) to D
So there are no suprises as to what your getting..A large selection and I could go through the stack to my hearts content. $4 a bf for his best cherry. And to my untrained eye it looked very nice..
I ended up with quite a bit of Cherry,White oak, red oak, sasafras,Walnut ($3.50 for a+)and some poplar.. Plus some 2in thick by 10in wide cherry turning stock..
So my first experience was positive as for now..Thanks guys

[Mike McCann]

the 4 dollars for the cherry is a great price.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Dave, I'm glad you found what you were looking for, and as usual, you received some good advice on the forum.

I never have the mill face any of my material because they just run it through the 52 inch planer both sides, so you get parallel, warped and twisted wood.

If you have them joint it prior to planing, that's different.

I always take a block plane with me, and remove a couple of shavings in different areas to see if I like the grain before purchasing.

I've found that going back to the same mill often enough to develop a good relationship with the staff is very important. They take good care of my requests, and allow me to sort my own material, something that many local mills no longer allow for insurance reasons.

P.S. As an aside to the good relationship idea, the mill I deal with will straight line rip long pieces for me if I need the length, and they don't charge me for it if it's a few pieces.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Stoler]

I questioned the final product but he is set on how he does it.So I examined it for cupping and twists and got (to me) some decent material to start with.
I,ll keep looking for different places to buy from.