Putting treads and risers on existing staircase

[Dave Malen]

Hi,
I need some advice from the experts on this forum. I"m having prefinished oak hardwood flooring put in my house and have decided to rip up the rugs on the staircase and put treads and risers to match. A few questions.
1. Should the treads and risers be independent of each other to allow for expansion?

2. I would like to paint the risers white. Should I just use oak or some other material?

3 Should I use some kind of mastic? Or just wood glue at the front of the tread and middle of the riser to allow for expansion

4. What kind of fasteners should I use?

5. Should the tread and riser be cut slightly smaller (maybe a sixteenth of an inch) to allow for seasonal expansion and contraction?

Thanks for your time,
Dave

[Randy Cohen]

I built a staircase a few years ago. theres a fine homebuilding that has a good article about the how to. My treads are fastened to the stringers but not the risers. The glue is in the dados with the wedges. If i remember right its a pretty tight fit. let the lumber acclimate to the house for a few days.

[James Phillips]

Hi,
I need some advice from the experts on this forum. I"m having prefinished oak hardwood flooring put in my house and have decided to rip up the rugs on the staircase and put treads and risers to match. A few questions.
1. Should the treads and risers be independent of each other to allow for expansion?

2. I would like to paint the risers white. Should I just use oak or some other material?

3 Should I use some kind of mastic? Or just wood glue at the front of the tread and middle of the riser to allow for expansion

4. What kind of fasteners should I use?

5. Should the tread and riser be cut slightly smaller (maybe a sixteenth of an inch) to allow for seasonal expansion and contraction?

Thanks for your time,
Dave

1. Use glue (construction adhesive) and brad nails to attach the treads. I THINK construction adhesive dries rubbery and should give enough to allow for expansion and contraction.

2. Use ply for the risers (no worries about expansion here)

3. If you are only going to glue the tread in one place glue the back. Glue several inches and be sure you get good adhesion.

4. Brad nails (they are easy to hide if set below the surface and you are just using them as "clamps"

5. No. The riser is ply and the tread can expand and contract over the lip.

[Dave Malen]

Thanks for your replies. James yours answers make a lot of sense. I'll probably use 1/4 inch ply for the risers and 4/4 oak for treads. Your suggestion to use construction adhesive sounds good. Maybe all over to keep things solid.

Dave

[David Epperson]

Thanks for your replies. James yours answers make a lot of sense. I'll probably use 1/4 inch ply for the risers and 4/4 oak for treads. Your suggestion to use construction adhesive sounds good. Maybe all over to keep things solid.

Dave
Well your situation sounds like it might be a bit different from what my wife would like to do, but close enough to ask this question.
Is the wood flooring you are having installed also 4/4 ?
Will the 4/4 treads leave you with uneven rise between the first, last and middle steps?
We were thinking about ripping the carpet off the stairs and putting wood down, but we were not going to do the whole floor, upstairs or down, Just the stairway. We also weren't planning on replacing the "construction" grade treads under the carpet. I was a bit concerned about using any wood much thicker than what the carpet is, or about 1/2", 3/4" max. Otherwise I end up with a taller step at the bottom and a shorter one at the top up to the carpeted upper floor.

[Richard Wolf]

Hi,
I need some advice from the experts on this forum. I"m having prefinished oak hardwood flooring put in my house and have decided to rip up the rugs on the staircase and put treads and risers to match. A few questions.
1. Should the treads and risers be independent of each other to allow for expansion?

2. I would like to paint the risers white. Should I just use oak or some other material?

3 Should I use some kind of mastic? Or just wood glue at the front of the tread and middle of the riser to allow for expansion

4. What kind of fasteners should I use?

5. Should the tread and riser be cut slightly smaller (maybe a sixteenth of an inch) to allow for seasonal expansion and contraction?

Thanks for your time,
Dave

Here is some answers to your questions.
1) The treads and risers and also the stringers should all be firmly attached to each other. Wood rubbing on wood is the cause of squeaks in staircases and very distracting.
2) Never paint oak, it will always look like painted oak.
3) PL construction adhesive works very well.
4) I like to use 3" screw and cover them with face grain plugs.
5) Don't cut pieces smaller than need be, once again, it makes squeaks.

The biggest problem, as David pointed out, is changing the rise on the first and last step. If 3/4" is going in the foyer, you will be alright adding 3/4" to each step, until you get to the top. The top step will now be 3/4" shorter than the rest which is a dangerous situation, unless you carry the new flooring onto the upstairs balcony.

Richard

[Charles Greenway]

The way Richard describes is pretty much the way I do it. A lot of times I'll use C & better pine for the risers if they're to paint, and it turns out pretty nice. As far as the 3/4 you come up short on the final step, you could use a piece of landing tread on the 2nd floor and just bring the carpet up to it. It's what I've done in the past, because few people we work for put wood floors upstairs.

[Dave Malen]

Thanks for your responses,
David,
The manufactured flooring is actually 3/4 thick hardwood. I'm buying 4/4 oak and planing it down to 3/4 of an inch.
Richard,
First off - I admire your work, shows great craftmanship. Thanks again for your comments. What material would you suggest for the risers?
Charles,
I'm having the second floor hallway done with the 3/4 inch manufactured hardwood as well. So I shouldn't have a problem with the height of the top riser.

Best Regards,
Dave

[Richard Wolf]

Richard,
What material would you suggest for the risers?
Dave

I like to use 1/2" Birch ply wood. It paints well and is stable.

Richard

[Dave Malen]

Richard for your advice!

Dave

[Matt Meiser]

Dave, keep us posted on your progress and results. I'm planning an almost identical project at our house.

[Danny Thompson]

I did the same project about 3 years ago. We used poplar for the risers, nailed in place, and construction adhesive for the treads. So far everything has been solid.

[Gary Muto]

Good question. I would like to add wood treads to my stairs as well. I have some questions too
so when you take off the carpeting, how much do you account for that thickness?
Is it better to just take off the "sub-floor" treads and only have hardwood.
I would like to leave teh plywood tread and install flooring over them. It appears to be within code, except I don't know what teh requirement is for step to step rise variation. Any one else?

[James Hart]

Hi,

I just finished the project you're working on. So far, so good, wife is pleased, no squeaks. Just repaired wall, isn't shown in these pics.

Here's a couple of pictures, I hope the links work;

http://members.cox.net/jimhart9/P1010100.JPG
http://members.cox.net/jimhart9/P1010098.JPG
http://members.cox.net/jimhart9/P1010097.JPG

Used oak planed to 3/4 with a piece glued to the nose creating 5/4 nosing rounded over.

Risers are 1/4 oak plywood. Working from the bottom up, riser is installed with liquid nails and brads, then tread lip sits over the riser. Tread is trimmed 1/8" short of the back of the next step. 1/4" riser sits flush on top of the tread, covering the 1/8" expansion gap.

Top stair is 1/2 depth tread to give continuity to design and stair height.

Inlay is walnut to give the stairs some definition.

Jim

[Danny Thompson]

We left the plywood tread in place, added a smooth riser (poplar) from the top of the lower tread and flush with the top of the upper tread--the plywood tread was covered by the riser and the riser edge was visible from above. After all this was complete, we then laid the mahogany (or oak) treads.

We started the tread with a dry-fit. First, a rabetted bull-nose strip that covered the exposed edge of the riser and hung down about 3/8". Then, tongue-and-grove slats all the way back to the next riser. This meant that we had to rip the backmost strip to width. Once the fit was right, we removed the strips and bullnose, shot a ton of construction adhesive and carefully laid the strips back in place, this time starting with the ripped backmost strip. With everything in place, and the seams blue-taped every few inches, we piled a stack of books on the step and double-checked the back seam (a few treads drifted forward during the process, so we had to slide them back ever so slightly while still wet.

[Chris Padilla]

Hi,

I just finished the project you're working on. So far, so good, wife is pleased, no squeaks. Just repaired wall, isn't shown in these pics.

Here's a couple of pictures, I hope the links work;

http://members.cox.net/jimhart9/P1010100.JPG
http://members.cox.net/jimhart9/P1010098.JPG
http://members.cox.net/jimhart9/P1010097.JPG

Used oak planed to 3/4 with a piece glued to the nose creating 5/4 nosing rounded over.

Risers are 1/4 oak plywood. Working from the bottom up, riser is installed with liquid nails and brads, then tread lip sits over the riser. Tread is trimmed 1/8" short of the back of the next step. 1/4" riser sits flush on top of the tread, covering the 1/8" expansion gap.

Top stair is 1/2 depth tread to give continuity to design and stair height.

Inlay is walnut to give the stairs some definition.

Jim

The inlay made all the difference...nice touch!

[Dustin Thompson]

Randy mentions a stair that has a housed stringer, which is an amazingly strong way of constructing a stair. All of the housed stairs I have had a chance to study are surprizingly stiff.

My first rule is, glue till you can't glue no more! I esssentially cover the tread portion of the stringer with glue, then use either 15 or 16 gauge finish nailers to afix, 3 nails per stringer. I don't used loose nails anymore, I found that the loose nails pushed too much of the construction adhesive out.

The construction adhesive really limits squeaks. I also like to run a bead of adhesive where the riser meets the stringer, and on the hidden portions of the cove molding under the tread nosing.

Almost any spot that has potential to chafe and squeak, I like to glue.

Residential stairs according to IRC need to have a minimum 10" tread, max rise of 7-3/4, and maximum difference of highest and lowest risers must be 3/8" or less.

I am with Richard, ply is a great riser material, minimal movement, relatively inexpensive, and paints well.

I have seen a stair assembled where the riser had a rabbet that slid into a groove on the top of the tread, that was a housed stringer.

For the record, I have had great luck with PL premium construction adhesive. Their 400 series ain't half bad, either, and a bit cheaper.

Jim's inlay gives a nice visual contrast-also a safety factor! Sometimes the rounded tread bullnose isn't super visible in certain lights. I like that detail!

That was a long-winded one, hope someone finds it helpful.

Dustin (who loves building stairs)

[Gary Muto]

Dustin,
Thanks for the great info.

[Dave Malen]

Matt, My first step will be to match the finish on the bruce hardwood. The sales guy says pittsburgh paints sell a matching stain. Then to get the smooth glossy finish I'll probably have to fill the grain on the oak. Which will be a new experience for me. So it might be a while before I'm posting any progress.

Gary,If you have well constructed steps I think it's easiest to just cover them rather them ripping them apart. I won't have any problems with riser size after I rip the rug up. That's because the first and second floors are covered with the same material - manufactured hardwood flooring.

James, I hope my project turns out half as good as yours. The walnut inlay is a beautiful touch.

Dustin, Good post. Lot's of useful info - thanks.

Dave

[Dave Malen]

Guys,
Before doing the risers and treads I decided the original newel post needed to be replaced. Some pics of the unfinished project are below.

Question: Those of you who said to use brad nails and adhesive to put in the treads and risers - what gauge brads would you use 18 or 15.

Thanks Dave

[Paul Girouard]

Guys,


Question: Those of you who said to use brad nails and adhesive to put in the treads and risers - what gauge brads would you use 18 or 15.

Thanks Dave

Which one do you have? Small-ish head / shortest brad that will hold it till the glue dries , easier to fill the hole.

[Dave Malen]

I have both

Dave

[Dustin Thompson]

The Newells look great, Dave! Your design?

The 15 gauge will pull the tread a bit tighter, smallest gauge I have ever used is 16. But the 18 gauge nailheads are noticeably smaller. I might give them a try, at least 2 inch in length.

Post some pics when you are done. Looks great so far!

Dustin

[Dave Malen]

Thanks for the compliment, Yes it was my design.
Dave

[Paul Girouard]

I may have missed something in the early part of the thread . So your pulling that carpet and adding prefinished wood treads and paint grade riser to the last pictured stair? Full width treads , or false / fake side treads with a center carpet runner?

[Dave Malen]

Paul,
Thanks for your reply. I'm putting in full width prefinished treads.
Dave

[Paul Girouard]

Ah so you'll be cutting off the existing tread noses? That are under that carpet.

So you new pre-finished risers & treads can take there place.

I think you'll be re thinking the plan some what as generally those old treads under carpet are pretty rough stock to begin with , generally riped down 2x12 Fir around here . But I think they will be rougher / worst than you think.

Also will you be covering that Oak flooring at the landing with a floating / Pre- finished flooring?

[Dave Malen]

Paul,
The prefinished oak flooring on the landing is new and is staying. Yes, I will cut the bull nose off the pine treads under the carpet. Haven't taken a look yet at the treads - hope there not as bad as you expect.
Dave

[James Hart]

Mine were 5/4 particle board and they extended out an inch and a half. Used a sawzall to trim as flush as possible. Wound up installing a 1/4 plywood spacer on the riser that butted the bottom of the tread, just too hard to trim it flush all the way across.

Jim