Grizzly G0513X2 vs G0636X

[Kevin Wiebe]

Can anyone explain the differences between these two saws. I mean besides the obvious stuff like motor size and re-saw height. The G0636X weighs nearly twice the G0513X2 (620lbs vs 352lbs). The motor size difference doesn't account for 268lbs. The G0636X even weighs more than the G0531 which is a 5hp, 21" saw.

IMHO the Grizzly site doesn't really do much to sell the G0636X. I would like to see a better explanation of why this saw is "actually better than any bandsaw on the market in its size range."

[John Hedges]

Totally different class of saw. Looks like the 636 is trying to compete in the MM16 and Laguna 16 space. The extra resaw height means a lot more weight in the frame to keep from flexing. Also imagining that since it is competing in the MM16 space everything about it is thicker and beefier. If I were in the market I think I would still opt for an MM16 (well actually I think I would go with the Agazzani B20 but that's a different story).

[Steve Milito]

I'd like to know the diiference between the G0531 and the G0636x. Although one is a 21" and the other a 17" they seem to have very similiar specs and costs.

[John Bailey]

Totally different class of saw. Looks like the 636 is trying to compete in the MM16 and Laguna 16 space. The extra resaw height means a lot more weight in the frame to keep from flexing. Also imagining that since it is competing in the MM16 space everything about it is thicker and beefier. If I were in the market I think I would still opt for an MM16 (well actually I think I would go with the Agazzani B20 but that's a different story).

John is right on the money. The G0636 was developed to directly compete with the MM and Laguna models. I think if you compared it to those two, you'd find them similar.

John

[Kevin Wiebe]

That is very true the MM16, LT16HD and G0636X do all have similar features. However the G0531 also has similar features but is much bigger machine. This larger machine is also cheaper. What am I paying for with the G0636X? Wouldn't it make more sense to buy the larger machine?

I love high quality equipment and believe it usually worth it to pay too much for something. It's like the ol' saying "Which is worse paying too much for something that does exactly what it is supposed to do, or paying too little for something that doesn't do what it is supposed to do?" The kicker is, does the more expensive machine get me more something? I suspect it does and hope an owner of the 636 can tell me.

[David Weaver]

I have a WW buddy who is keenly interested in this topic.

I would be, too, if I hadn't just bought a band saw.

[Steve Milito]

That is very true the MM16, LT16HD and G0636X do all have similar features. However the G0531 also has similar features but is much bigger machine. This larger machine is also cheaper. What am I paying for with the G0636X? Wouldn't it make more sense to buy the larger machine?

I love high quality equipment and believe it usually worth it to pay too much for something. It's like the ol' saying "Which is worse paying too much for something that does exactly what it is supposed to do, or paying too little for something that doesn't do what it is supposed to do?" The kicker is, does the more expensive machine get me more something? I suspect it does and hope an owner of the 636 can tell me.

I always aim for the 'sweet spot'. :D

It would be great if Shiraz would comment.

[Justin Bukoski]

Kevin, the 21" saw is only bigger at the throat. I would actually consider it a smaller saw since it has less resaw height. I'm sure most of the extra cost on the 636 is the large amount of steel required in the frame to keep from flexing when you tension a blade that big with such a large opening.

No question in my mind that I'd buy the 636 if I were in the market for a bandsaw. In fact, I'll probably order one in the near future. Just have to sell my 514X first!

[Steve Milito]

Kevin, the 21" saw is only bigger at the throat. I would actually consider it a smaller saw since it has less resaw height. I'm sure most of the extra cost on the 636 is the large amount of steel required in the frame to keep from flexing when you tension a blade that big with such a large opening.

No question in my mind that I'd buy the 636 if I were in the market for a bandsaw. In fact, I'll probably order one in the near future. Just have to sell my 514X first!


So a MM16 is a bigger bandsaw than a Agazzani B-24? :confused:
I'm not sure that resaw height is the end-all-do-all of bandsaw specs.
Many would argue that the bigger wheels are the more important spec. I've always found grizzly's product line hard to decipher.

[Justin Bukoski]

It really depends on what you do with the saw. I have never needed a bigger throat opening on my BS but I have wished for more re-saw height.

And no the Agazzani is 15 3/4 in resaw height whereas the mm16 is 12" so by my metric the agazzani is bigger

[Steve Milito]

It really depends on what you do with the saw. I have never needed a bigger throat opening on my BS but I have wished for more re-saw height.

And no the Agazzani is 15 3/4 in resaw height whereas the mm16 is 12" so by my metric the agazzani is bigger

FWIW: the MM16 has a 16" resaw height.

[David Weaver]

I always thought the newer MM16s had a 16-inch resaw height or thereabouts.

[Justin Bukoski]

David you are right, I looked at the wrong saw from MM. So yeah, personally I'd consider it "bigger" by a 1/4in but in my book that's close enough to be the same.

[Steve Milito]

David you are right, I looked at the wrong saw from MM. So yeah, personally I'd consider it "bigger" by a 1/4in but in my book that's close enough to be the same.

Both of them may be really nice saws, but a 24" Agazzani and a 16" Minimax are not the same size, regardless of the resaw height.

[Kevin Wiebe]

I think the import factor in choosing re-saw height is the size of the jointer and planer you have. Except for maybe turners prepping large stock or ripping your own lumber out of logs you are going to be putting these freshly re-sawn boards through planers and jointers at some point. I have an 8" jointer and 15" planer which I think is pretty typical for most non-production shops. What am I going to do with 16" of re-saw height?

That wasn't really my question though. I would like to quantify how the 636 is better. Grizzly's site claims, "It is our opinion that this saw is actually better than any bandsaw on the market in its size range. Check out the features below and you will agree!" Please tell me why. The list of features is the same or very similar to many other saws some of which are much larger. All things being equal or very close to equal I will buy that larger saw (G0531).

[Shiraz Balolia]

Can anyone explain the differences between these two saws. I mean besides the obvious stuff like motor size and re-saw height. The G0636X weighs nearly twice the G0513X2 (620lbs vs 352lbs). The motor size difference doesn't account for 268lbs. The G0636X even weighs more than the G0531 which is a 5hp, 21" saw.

IMHO the Grizzly site doesn't really do much to sell the G0636X. I would like to see a better explanation of why this saw is "actually better than any bandsaw on the market in its size range."

Here are some weight differences:
Motor: 93 lbs compared to 48 lbs on the G0514X2
Machine frame: 302 lbs compared to 176 lbs on the G0514X2
Fence: 22 lbs compared to 15.4 lbs on the G0514X2
Table: 89 lbs compared to 55 lbs on the G0514X2
Cast iron wheels: 60.7 lbs compared to 50.6 lbs on the Go514X2.

Also, there is the geared table mechanism which gives extra support to the table for handling very heavy loads.
FYI - the 21" bandsaw frame weighs almost the same as the G0636X.

I am extremely busy and would love to engage in a dialogue about these machines, but am spending mega hours on a special project. This is the best I can do for now.
Thanks for the interest.

[Kevin Wiebe]

Some good information, thank you Shiraz.

If any other users of either the 636 or 531 could comment on the 'usability' of these saws that would be great.

[Justin Bukoski]

Kevin, I think you'll be happy with either one.

I've owned two bandsaws from Grizzly and have been very happy with both of them. I plan on buying the 636 soon. For me resaw height is important for making veneers. I frequently will take a wide board and peel off 1/16" veneers to apply to panels and such. I have a 16" wide piece of gonco alves in the shop right now that is destined to be veneer but I'll have to cut it down to 12" because I don't have the height. I don't bother jointing between slices since I get a pretty smooth cut and I just move the fence and use the same jointed face over and over. If I really need to joint it I'd do it by hand.

I don't really need the extra throat opening for cutting circle and long curved pieces.

Please report back on which way you go. Seems like there are a lot of people interested.

Good luck!

[Dave MacArthur]

Great thread! I've been looking at larger bandsaws for almost a year now, and had decided on the 514x2 as the best value out there--love it's table support and trunnions.

I also posted a thread asking about the 636 and any info on it from users, after it was revealed at the AWFS, but got no responses... this is the first thead on it I've seen here at SMC since it was introduced in Jul. I believe it wasn't available until Nov, so I didn't expect many inputs from users. I'm also very interested in how/why the 636 compares to MM and Laguna, and hope some mag does a review soon (or someone here at SMC!).

[Steve Milito]

I looked at the Griz bandsaw line-up today. The steel frame on the G0636 is at least 50% thicker than another bandsaw with the exception of the massive 24" G0569. The G0566 (which is a 3HP G0531)weighs ~50 Lb less than the 636 despite being a significantly larger machine. I think the steel on the 636 is 3/16", and no more than 1/8" on the 566. The G0514x2 is a nice saw, and a good bargin, but not nearly as massively overbuilt as the G0636.

[Scott Seigmund]

First, I would like to thank Shiraz for shedding some light on the specifications for the G0636X. I think a lot of people are highly interested in this saw. I certainly was, and after reading the claim that it is as good or better than the Italian bandsaws in this class, I set about doing some detailed research. Anyone interested in this saw should download the owner’s manual and spend some time studying the excellent illustrations. The photos and parts illustrations in the manual scale extremely well when enlarged allowing you to get a detailed look at some of the key components of the saw. Still, without being able to physically examine the saw, the pictures can only provide so much information. I sent a list of questions to Grizzly Tech Support and had a reply the following day. Actually I had a reply the same day and answers to my questions the following day. One area that Grizzly has absolutely gotten right is customer service. I so wanted to buy a bandsaw from this company that it really hurts not to. I am the type of customer that will go out of my way to reward a company that respects their customers, and Grizzly is a company that I want to patronize.

So why did I end up buying a Laguna LT18HD? Because I wanted a best-in-class saw and the G0636X is not that saw. The LT18HD is not my perfect saw either, but it comes the closest to having all the features and quality that I expect in a best-in-class tool. Pay particular attention to the word quality in the last sentence. I will also add that Laguna has been a pleasure to deal with through the entire purchase, although their business and sales model is much different than Grizzly’s. I’m not going to cover every single item that influenced my decision, but I will share my thoughts on the big items that made the most difference to me. I actually used a matrix to score different saws on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being the top score.

1. Frame: I think Grizzly has gotten the frame on the G0636 right. It appears to be massive, heavily built, and should easily allow proper tensioning of any blade that will fit. Based on the saws that I looked at back in September when I visited the Grizzly showroom in Bellingham, the fit and finish of the frame should be excellent. I score the frame a 5.

2. Wheels: The wheels look to be heavy and of excellent quality and finish in the user manual, and from the earlier post by Shiraz, they weigh over 30 pounds each. What about the amount of crown in the tires? None of the manufacturers give this specification in their literature, but it is well known that the Italian saws have very little crown, which favors tracking wide blades. This is one of the questions that I asked Grizzly Tech Support. Here is the reply from Angela; “I am showing that the crown on the tire of the G0636X Band Saw is approximately .145, and the tires are vulcanized on the wheel.” That is more than 1/8inch of crown. I’ll give them a 4.

3. Trunnion: The trunnion appears to be a knock-off of the one on the Aggazani 20 inch saw which I regard as the best trunnion design going. I think this is also the same unit as on the G0531 21inch saw which I looked at in the showroom. I give it a 5.

4. Dust Extraction: The G0636X has two dust ports, one of which is a nicely designed dust chamber just below the trunnion. I give dust control a 5.

5. Upper wheel carrier: The three dominant Italian saws all use a very similar design for this critical component; i.e. beautifully machined and fitted castings with a giant shaft to carry the upper wheel. At least on the Laguna, this component also allows for some adjustment other then for blade tracking. The Grizzly part is fabricated out of mild steel that is bent, welded and screwed together. Additionally, the two parts that guide the axel/block assembly are small square bars (#21 in the part breakdown, called a “locate plate”) attached to the folded metal housing by 4 small screws. I have a hard time with the idea that such a fabricated part can be as accurate and smooth-operating as a machined casting. I understand that tolerances and accuracy are not that critical as long as the lower axle has enough mobility to compensate for any inaccuracy of the upper wheel carrier. Still, there is just nothing about this assembly that I can like. It may be effective, but it is quite crude in comparison to the Italian saws. Even Jet now uses machined castings for the upper wheel carrier on it’s 18 inch saw, although it is a much smaller and lighter component than the Italian saws. I give it a 2.

6. Guides: Judging bandsaw blade guides can be pretty subjective. The one thing most of the designs have in common is that they have been around for a long time, and are pretty well proven. The Laguna ceramic guides represent the most innovative thinking in bandsaw guides in many years. While not everyone is fan of the design, most users are overwhelmingly positive in their praise for them. I am obviously one of the fans, and this was a significant factor in my purchase decision. In fact, as far as I’m concerned the price of the G0636X is increased by the cost of these guides, because I would have added them to the G0636X had I purchased it. As for the Grizzly guides, they are neither great nor poor, so I give them a 3.

7. Upper Guide Carrier: There is much variation in the design of this assembly among the various manufactures. I’ll say right up front that any bandsaw manufacturer that wants to have a best-in-class saw should look at this component on the MiniMax MM16. Even the other Italian manufacturers have some catching up to do here, but with the G0636X, Grizzly is not even in the game. I couldn’t tell from the Owner’s manual what material the guide bar on the G0636 is made of, so I asked this question of Grizzly Tech Support; “Is the upper guide shaft a hollow tube or solid bar stock?” Again from Angela; “The upper guide shaft is hollow.” It is hard to be the best-in-class when the competition is using machined/ground solid steel. I also know from examining other saws at Grizzly’s showroom that the rack gear is stamped from fairly thin mild steel and attached to the tube with screws. The housing that supports this guide did not impress me with great quality either. The fit and operation of the hand wheel on all the saws in the showroom seemed wobbly and poorly fitted. Although I was not able to get any measurements, I also felt that the amount of deflection in these guide carrier assemblies was much more than I would like. I gave the G0636X guide carrier a 2.

8. Motor: Here, experience is the best teacher. If we could agree that a U.S. made Baldor motor gets a ranking of 5, then its hard for me to give any Asian made electric motor better than a 3.

9. Price: It never was about price. Certainly if I could get my perfect bandsaw for under $2K, I would be falling all over myself to buy one, and I wouldn’t care where it was made. I paid $830 more for the LT18HD than I would have spent for the G0636X. If I add the cost of Laguna guides to the G0636, the difference is now less than $500 bucks. If the motor fails early, then there is no difference at all in cost. Can I overlook the faults of the G0636 for $500, or even $830? No way! Unlike the blade guides, I can’t fix the Guide Carrier or the Upper Wheel Carrier. The poor quality is built into the tool forever. I’m not buying this saw with the intention of “upgrading” in the future.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope it will provide some useful information to others looking to purchase a high performance bandsaw in this class. I also hope it is useful information for Grizzly Industrial Inc. If Grizzly’s intention is to offer the best bandsaw on the market, then they have come very close, but they have essentially dropped the ball in the endzone on what might have been the game winning touchdown. In my view, the deficiencies of the G0636X are easily corrected at the design and manufacturing level. If the disorganized bandsaw product line is cleaned up into two classes of saws, they could achieve economies of scale on shared components; i.e. a “value” line of bandsaw that mostly consists of products already produced, and a professional line consisting of 14, 17 and 21 inch saws that are truly best-in-class.

Regards,

Scott

[Tim Marks]

great stuff, Scott. Thanks for the detailed analysis. It definitely shows that you have spent alot of time agonizing over this purchase, and brought up some comparison points that I would have never dreamed of.

I hope Shiraz Balolia can break away from his special project (please throw us a bone... is it something that I will want to buy? I just sold my house, and....oh wait, I have almost NO shop space where I live now... rats!) to provide a response to some of your critiqe. Who knows, maybe we will have to call the G0636X2 in 2008 the "Scott Seigmund model"...

[Steve Milito]

Thanks Scott. That really helps as I look at bandsaws.

[Tom Godley]

Great stuff Scott - Thanks.

I also am looking to buy a new saw in the next few weeks - it is very hard to tell the important differences between the players. The inability for me to go and to see them, just adds to the problem.

Also, the need for a future upgrade (the guides to you) can make the price difference of the less expensive saw not worth the savings.

After some looking around I thought I would just order the MM16 - They sent me a quote last week -- but I think I should spend a little more time on this.

With the cost of the HD being what it is - you must have looked at the MM16 and an Agazzani ?? - do you have any thoughts with regard to them.

Thanks again for spending the time to write down your thoughts

[Lee Hingle]

Scott,
FYI, I just checked the Grizzly site and Laguna site, the Grizzly G0636 is $1995 and the Laguna LT18 is $3100 so there is an $1100 difference in the two saws now (both prices are before shipping). Sounds like you got a great deal on the Laguna or maybe they had a price increase?
Lee

[Tom Godley]

Quick question -- I do not see a LT18HD listed on the web.

Was it the 18 -- They do have a LT16HD?

Thanks


TAG

[Scott Seigmund]

Tom and Lee, thanks for the kind feedback.

As an ex-professional woodworker, I learned a long time ago that there is rarely any real economy in trying to save money on equipment purchases if it means compromising quality. In my experience, quality in woodworking tools (both portable and stationary) is highly correlated to performance and ease of use. When I was poor, in the early days of my business, I purchased several Grizzly machines. I came to view them as a “kit”, and ended up basically disassembling, tuning, fitting, fabricating, and fixing them until they worked. I also found out when I eventually upgraded everything, that the resale value was virtually nonexistent. I remember the painful economic lesson of selling a 20 year old, worn out Powermatic 66 saw for more than a Grizzly jointer, planer and small shaper combined. I know that Grizzly tools today are magnitudes better than when I bought these early tools, but I’m not sure the resale value stigma has improved much. Resale value is a hard thing to quantify when making a purchase decision, but if you find yourself having to “upgrade” later because of too many disappointments in a “value” oriented tool, I promise you will never forget the lesson a second time. FWIW, NEVER buy a tool that is less expensive than a better tool with the notion in the back of your mind that you “can make it work”. With the G0636X, Grizzly has the foundation of a world class saw. Unfortunately they compromised significantly on a couple of key components, and these are components that cannot be upgraded by the owner even if he wanted to. To me this more than erases any initial savings. When I find myself looking at a machine and thinking about how I would reengineer it, I know it’s time to look at something else.


Yes, I seriously considered the MM16 and the Aggazani 16 and 18 inch saws. In my scoring matrix, the MM16 was nearly tied with the LT16HD and LT18. I wish they made an 18 inch saw, as this is the optimal capacity for my needs. Unfortunately, I couldn’t get a response to my request for quotes from either vendor. This doesn’t bode well for a guy living in Anchorage, AK, so this narrowed the options to Grizzly and Laguna. Both companies have experience shipping equipment to the last frontier and had very competitive shipping quotes. I remember looking at Aggazani saws when I was buying tools from Adwood in High Point, NC. They are great saws, but I can’t tell that they have seen any development for several years. Maybe if it isn’t broken it doesn’t need fixing! Still there are some features that I would like to see on these saws.

Sorry for my error on the LT18 “HD”. It is simply the LT18, and is the same thing as the LT16HD, just 2 inches more capacity. The “Heavy Duty” version of the LT18 is called the Resaw Master and does not handle blades smaller than 3/8 inch. The $3100 is the ‘list’ price for the saw. Laguna is always running specials, and I negotiated a price for just the saw, as I did not need another dust collector (the November special was for a saw and dust collector). Laguna also gives good discounts at trade shows. I would wait for a special or attend a show if possible. Of course with Grizzly, the price is the price. No negotiating. As noted in my earlier post, it’s a different business model.

-Scott

[Lee Hingle]

Hi Scott,
I agree with your points completely about price. I bought a 20" grizzly planer (starting out in business - read: poor - seems you can understand that;). Nice machine but it's worth every bit of $1150. The resale concept never entered my mind but you are absolutely correct - I see the gold stuff go for top dollar every day on the 'bay and the Grizz stuff goes for the average 50-60% if it's in top condition.

I appreciate your taking the time to post your candid views on the bandsaws. I have dealt first hand with Laguna and have been disappointed with their customer service - however the product is very,very well built. (I put their TSS sliding table on my Powermatic '66). Maybe when the time comes to get the bandsaw I will give them another shot.
Thanks,
Lee

[Ed Beers]

2. Wheels: The wheels look to be heavy and of excellent quality and finish in the user manual, and from the earlier post by Shiraz, they weigh over 30 pounds each. What about the amount of crown in the tires? None of the manufacturers give this specification in their literature, but it is well known that the Italian saws have very little crown, which favors tracking wide blades. This is one of the questions that I asked Grizzly Tech Support. Here is the reply from Angela; “I am showing that the crown on the tire of the G0636X Band Saw is approximately .145, and the tires are vulcanized on the wheel.” That is more than 1/8inch of crown. I’ll give them a 4.


If you are only intending to use the saw with a resaw blade then the crown isn't a plus but I'm not sure it hurts. If you want to use a narrow blade to cut curves, you will wish you had it. Assuming that the crowned tire works well with a wide blade also, I think the crowned tire is the one that should be getting a 5.



5. Upper wheel carrier: The three dominant Italian saws all use a very similar design for this critical component; i.e. beautifully machined and fitted castings with a giant shaft to carry the upper wheel. At least on the Laguna, this component also allows for some adjustment other then for blade tracking. The Grizzly part is fabricated out of mild steel that is bent, welded and screwed together. Additionally, the two parts that guide the axel/block assembly are small square bars (#21 in the part breakdown, called a “locate plate”) attached to the folded metal housing by 4 small screws. I have a hard time with the idea that such a fabricated part can be as accurate and smooth-operating as a machined casting. I understand that tolerances and accuracy are not that critical as long as the lower axle has enough mobility to compensate for any inaccuracy of the upper wheel carrier. Still, there is just nothing about this assembly that I can like. It may be effective, but it is quite crude in comparison to the Italian saws. Even Jet now uses machined castings for the upper wheel carrier on it’s 18 inch saw, although it is a much smaller and lighter component than the Italian saws. I give it a 2.


When I was shopping for a bandsaw a few years ago, the bracing for upper axle carrier guides was one place where the Italian saws really stood out. The Grizzly saws looked pretty good compared to other Asian saws (Jet included). These aren't really a high precision application where you are going to have two cast iron surfaces scraped to mate. I don't see any obvious reason that a cast axle carrier is better or that a fabricated one is cheaper. Execution will make a bigger difference than the materials. You can probably count on the Laguna's execution being very good in this area. The Grizzly is more of an unknown.

I also note that the Grizzly has a quick tension release lever. I view this a real plus and it deserves a little extra consideration as does the window so you can observe tracking.



6. Guides: Judging bandsaw blade guides can be pretty subjective. The one thing most of the designs have in common is that they have been around for a long time, and are pretty well proven. The Laguna ceramic guides represent the most innovative thinking in bandsaw guides in many years. While not everyone is fan of the design, most users are overwhelmingly positive in their praise for them. I am obviously one of the fans, and this was a significant factor in my purchase decision. In fact, as far as I’m concerned the price of the G0636X is increased by the cost of these guides, because I would have added them to the G0636X had I purchased it. As for the Grizzly guides, they are neither great nor poor, so I give them a 3.


Obviously you need guides that work well for the blades and operations you intend to perform. The Laguna guides came on my LT18 and have worked well for me but I am not convinced that they are the one true guide and no other will do. They don't exactly scream value to me if you are buying them to retrofit a saw.



7. Upper Guide Carrier: There is much variation in the design of this assembly among the various manufactures. I’ll say right up front that any bandsaw manufacturer that wants to have a best-in-class saw should look at this component on the MiniMax MM16. Even the other Italian manufacturers have some catching up to do here, but with the G0636X, Grizzly is not even in the game. I couldn’t tell from the Owner’s manual what material the guide bar on the G0636 is made of, so I asked this question of Grizzly Tech Support; “Is the upper guide shaft a hollow tube or solid bar stock?” Again from Angela; “The upper guide shaft is hollow.” It is hard to be the best-in-class when the competition is using machined/ground solid steel. I also know from examining other saws at Grizzly’s showroom that the rack gear is stamped from fairly thin mild steel and attached to the tube with screws. The housing that supports this guide did not impress me with great quality either. The fit and operation of the hand wheel on all the saws in the showroom seemed wobbly and poorly fitted. Although I was not able to get any measurements, I also felt that the amount of deflection in these guide carrier assemblies was much more than I would like. I gave the G0636X guide carrier a 2.


I don't see any reason that a solid rod is superior to a hollow tube given proper sizing and wall thickness. I think a square guide bar (Grizzly) is probably a better concept because it will be better at controlling rotational force than a round guide bar that is located by the clamping flat. I'm not exactly overawed by the Laguna's provision for adjusting the guide bar to be exactly parallel with the blade and the blade guard always seemed kind of kludgy. It is rigid when clamped down though.

I think your evaluation criteria for the upper guide carrier are off base. I would favor something more performance based.



8. Motor: Here, experience is the best teacher. If we could agree that a U.S. made Baldor motor gets a ranking of 5, then its hard for me to give any Asian made electric motor better than a 3.


There is no magic that says good motors can only be made in the US. I don't see either of these motors working up a sweat. Grizzly probably has some numbers but I would guess the odds of your motor failing prematurely are nowhere near 1 in 10. If it were that high your expected cost for a motor replacement would only be around $40.



9. Price: It never was about price. Certainly if I could get my perfect bandsaw for under $2K, I would be falling all over myself to buy one, and I wouldn’t care where it was made. I paid $830 more for the LT18HD than I would have spent for the G0636X. If I add the cost of Laguna guides to the G0636, the difference is now less than $500 bucks. If the motor fails early, then there is no difference at all in cost. Can I overlook the faults of the G0636 for $500, or even $830? No way! Unlike the blade guides, I can’t fix the Guide Carrier or the Upper Wheel Carrier. The poor quality is built into the tool forever. I’m not buying this saw with the intention of “upgrading” in the future.


I don't think you or I have enough information to really evaluate the quality of either the guide carrier or the wheel carrier. Just because Grizzly made different materials choices doesn't mean that the result isn't as good or better. Or they could suck. The proof is in using it.

While you are speculating on the cost of some deficiences, note that only the Grizzly comes with lifting lugs. What is the value of not dropping your saw?

Regards,

Ed

[Shiraz Balolia]

I just had to take some time to respond to Scott’s "evaluation" of the G0636X saw without ever having laid eyes on it.

Crown on the saw is 3 mm (.125"). This is a good crown for both resawing as well as regular bandsaw applications. There are no plans to change the crown as it works really well.
Upper wheel carrier (part #21). Actually the "small square" bars you refer to are fairly substantial bars and plenty strong to last several lifetimes. It is hardly practical to evaluate a part based off an exploded view of a parts list. Those renderings are never to scale.
Guides – Ceramic versus double ball bearing (on G0636X) versus flat disc (Euro Style) versus large iron wood "dowel" type are all subjective and completely a user preference. Some people don’t like the ceramic because they spark if you have a bad blade. I personally prefer the heavy-duty double ball bearing ones that are on the G0636X.
Upper guide carrier. I must apologize for Angela’s mistake in misinforming you that this is hollow. It is actually solid steel bar stock machined to 1 3/16" square. She is getting "acquainted" with that saw a little more personally today.
The rack gear is 1/8" thick plate that has hardened teeth.
Motor is another subjective issue. Baldors are good motors, but the motor on this saw comes from the best motor factory in Taiwan and they cost substantially more than other Taiwan motors. Plus it is 5 HP on the G0636X versus 4.5 HP on your saw.
The upper wheel shaft on the G0636X is pretty heavy-duty by any standards – 1 ¼". The wheel has double sealed ball bearings and both upper and lower wheels are fully balanced. Attached are some photos we took of the saw this morning.
Does your Laguna have a geared tilting table that also acts as a second stability point for table flex? We would love to do a table flex test between your saw and ours. For that matter, between any saw on the market and ours.
Perhaps you may be able to explain where your saw cut corners on weight as it weighs about 110 lbs less than the G0636X.Please see the attached photos of various parts of the saw taken this morning.

http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_1.jpg
http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_2.jpg
http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_3.jpg
http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_4.jpg
http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_5.jpg

[Al Garay]

Anyone considering these level of Bandsaws (big investment) should visit a Grizzly warehouse. Your visit will be worthwhile.

I am lucky to live close enough to visit Bellingham, WA. It's truely like visiting Santa's workshop in the North Pole.

[Scott Seigmund]

Shiraz,

Please accept my sincere thanks for taking the time to participate in this discussion of high-end bandsaws. Far too many people running $100M+ companies have long forgotten who their customers are. I also appreciate the fact that you are a talented woodworker as well, and your guitars are beautiful. I feel very badly for getting Angela in trouble with the boss. Angela, I am deeply apologetic. In using the quotes, I wanted readers to know that I’m not just making this stuff up.

I think the greatest lesson from this discussion is that it underscores the difficulty of obtaining enough information of sufficient quality to make informed purchase decisions. The business of producing and marketing woodworking machinery is vastly different from 20 years ago. You, perhaps more than any other individual, have driven that change. Your company has three large distribution centers and showrooms, and mails more than 1 million paper catalogs each year. Still, most customers cannot easily get to one of these centers to examine the products personally, and the catalogs with over 12,000 items can provide only limited information. In my "evaluation of the G0636X saw without ever having laid eyes on it” I used every bit of information that was available to me. I searched this forum and found others asking the same questions that I had. I combed your website for information. I downloaded owner’s manuals for most of your saws and spent a lot of time examining illustrations and parts diagrams to understand how the G0636 is put together. I sent questions to your tech support department. I visited your Bellingham showroom this past September specifically to look at bandsaws (the G0636X was not available then). Lastly, I relied on knowledge and experience gained from my years as a professional woodworker. I will add that my father was also a professional woodworker and had a shop full of green Powermatic machines (and still has many of them). These machines were made in McMinnville, TN, about three hours from our home, and I can recall the yards full of castings ageing for many seasons at the McMinnville factory before they could be machined. I have used great tools and very poor ones, and it is very possible that my expectations are not reflective of today’s “normal” woodworker. I make no apologies for my personal expectations for quality. These expectations are the result of my own experiences paid for with my own cash, and they are invaluable to me in “evaluating” machinery. They allow me to take seemingly disparate information and develop a framework from which I can draw fairly reliable conclusions. The fact that I have not physically examined this particular tool does not make the method invalid. The additional information that you have so graciously provided above might have changed my decision had it been available. Right now, the best information available on the G0636X bandsaw is here at Sawmill Creek, and I have helped to provide it to my fellow woodworkers and your potential customers (no thanks necessary;-). I hope that you can find a way to present more detailed information on your website in the future. You are already bearing the expense of operating the site, and the marginal costs of loading it up with useful information is relatively small. If you care to know, there are other factors that went into my decision that I can share with you that I don’t wish to belabor in a public forum.

Lastly, I hope you don’t think that I have enjoyed dissing your newest bandsaw publicly. I came very close to buying one even with imperfect information. If you can make it up to Alaska in June or July, I’ll take you fishing for King Salmon, and you can yell at me (or maybe thank me) in person while I net your fish.

Best Regards,

-Scott

[Shiraz Balolia]

Scott – no hard feelings!


You are correct; your post generated a response from me that straightened out some misinformation as well as brought new details about our G0636X saw to the rest of the folks here at SMC.

As easy as it is to show extra details and specs of each machine on our website, it becomes a juggling act when we are faced with many other issues with each new machine. For example, when we add a new machine it starts a chain reaction within the company:

Parts lists have to be created, sometimes from scratch
Parts have to be ordered for stocking.
Warning labels of all kinds have to be prepared and called out for the manufacturer.
Photographs of the machine for the catalog, website and ads have to be taken.
Dozens of photographs have to be taken of the various parts of the machine for the manual.
A full manual has to be written by our in-house tech writers.
Specs of the machine have to be put together.
Description of the machine’s features have to be written for marketing, catalog and the web.
Information has to be uploaded to the computer and the website.
We also have information in Spanish so translation has to be done.
Information has to be disseminated to our employees, techs, etc…. Now multiply that by thirty to fifty times per year as we introduce a large number of new machines every year. We added 50 pages of new products in our 2007 catalog and another 50 pages have been added for the 2008 catalog which is due out next month.


We will certainly try to improve the amount of information being presented for each machine, even beyond the current extensive spec sheets, manuals and parts lists that we make accessible to our customers on the web.


Thank you for the offer for fishing in Alaska. Actually, I love fishing for Kings using a 10’ mooching rod with a "knuckle buster" reel. I also fish for Halibut and run my boat up to the West Coast of Vancouver Island every year. Time is at a premium and it gets pretty hard to get away, although we also fish and crab here locally in the San Juan Islands.

[Steve Milito]

If you are only intending to use the saw with a resaw blade then the crown isn't a plus but I'm not sure it hurts. If you want to use a narrow blade to cut curves, you will wish you had it. Assuming that the crowned tire works well with a wide blade also, I think the crowned tire is the one that should be getting a 5.



I looking to buy a BS in the very near future. My budget will allow for a BS in the 16-20" size from any of the big BS vendors. It needs to be competent at resawing as well as general purpose bandsaw work including cutting curves. I only have room for one saw, and am willing to spend more (if needed) to get the right tool, but I do not want to spend more money for a presumed "better" saw that is not as versatile.
Can someone go into more detail about pros and cons of the wheel crown? I also would like to know the pros and cons of the tire being vulcanized on the wheel.
Is the lack of a quick release mechanism a major issue?
Is the lack of a window for viewing the tracking a major issue?
Is bigger better, would I regret getting a 16" if I can afford and have room for a 20" saw?

[Ed Beers]

I looking to buy a BS in the very near future. My budget will allow for a BS in the 16-20" size from any of the big BS vendors. It needs to be competent at resawing as well as general purpose bandsaw work including cutting curves. I only have room for one saw, and am willing to spend more (if needed) to get the right tool, but I do not want to spend more money for a presumed "better" saw that is not as versatile.
Can someone go into more detail about pros and cons of the wheel crown?

A crown tends to make the blade center on the wheel. With a flat tire and narrow blade threre is little to keep the blade from wondering around. Most 14" band saws sold in the US have crowned tires for this reason. Flat tires require a more precise alignment.

This might not be a big deal in an ideal bandsaw that didn't flex at all. However, even though the high end band saws are built like tanks, they still do flex when you tension a wide resaw blade and some adjustment will be required to track a narrow blade.

Another consideration is that the guides you would choose for a 1" resaw blade aren't going to be the ones you want for an 1/8" blade.



I also would like to know the pros and cons of the tire being vulcanized on the wheel.

Not sure. I suppose it is less likely to come off and harder to replace.


Is the lack of a quick release mechanism a major issue?
Is the lack of a window for viewing the tracking a major issue?

I personally would consider them a luxury but it all else was equal...


Is bigger better, would I regret getting a 16" if I can afford and have room for a 20" saw?

That really depends on what you are going to cut. I have been thinking about adding a 14" saw for general use so I don't have to disturb my resaw setup. Then I think about how hard it is to do anything if there is nowhere left to stand.

[Kevin Wiebe]

Wow! This information is awesome. Thank you everyone!

I think I should made the title G0531 vs G0636X though. What I am taking away from this is that the 636 is a great saw and very much worth it's price. What about the 531 though? Is it equal in quality? I suspect it is not. It is cheaper and lighter yet it overall a larger saw. I would call it larger even if the re-saw is less by 2".

I still have the same question as Steve does. What about size? In this case I think it boils down to re-saw vs throat capacity. I am hoping to buy a BS that I can start using much more than my TS. I would like to even phase the TS out of my shop. I have never liked table saws. I think they are inherently more dangerous than a BS. Plus I am starting to think that a rail saw (i.e. Festool) is a better way to work with large material anyway. Eliminating the TS would free up a lot a space in my smallish (20' x 26') shop. If I eliminate the TS will I be disappointed with a 17" BS?

Shiraz, does Grizzly plan to sell any other sizes as an "Ultimate" saw? Maybe a whole line of "Ultimate" tools?

[Steve Milito]

I'm struggling between the Griz G0636 and the MM20. I've concluded that the Griz is a whole lotta saw for $2K. I'm not sure I need the capacity of the MM20.

[james sandel]

This has been a great forum. Because of this, and lots of additional research, I have decided to purchase the 636.

The comments made by all of you has helped a lot and Scott, due to your posted research Kevin, the original poster of this thread, and the rest of us was able to get some questions answered by Shiraz. Thanks Shiraz for being active on this forum. Not only are you active you have identified yourself. IMO it says a lot about a company when the chairman will from time to time answer questions about his products. It would be nice to see the three Italians do the same. I also like that no matter which forum I have gone to I always hear almost all positive things about Grizzly. Even most of those who do not purchase a Griz are not talking bad about it. I know that making such an expensive purchase will often make a person go to a more expensive product because, quite often, it is a better overall choice but I believe that Grizzly is somewhat changing that opinion. I will order in a couple of weeks and will keep you all posted.

Shiraz, I believe it would be a little easier to compare your inventory against itself, as well as against others, if you provided a comparison chart/spreadsheet. You have such a large selection, in each category, which can get somewhat over whelming when trying to make a decision.

[Bret Leishman]

You will be very pleased with the quality of this bandsaw. I just received and set up mine. Consider the greatlakescaster.com stabilizing casters at $11.49 each they work great. They bolt right into existing holes used to bolt saw to the delivery pallet. Moving saw takes about as much effort as pushing an empty grocery cart on a smooth concrete floor. Resawed some 6in redwood with included 1" blade took some effort with good results. Put a lenox trimaster 2/3 put on today cuts same boards with almost no effort and very smooth finish. Saw is heavy, I had the good fortune to have a forklift available, you will need assistance and some creative mechanical help if no forklift. Note the eyebolts that came with mine were too small size for bolt hole. Probably size sent was for other saws. Yours may come with correct size, did not use mine (pretty minor negative). Will try to put together proper gloat with pictures. So happy with the value and quality of this saw I put in my order for the G0633 jointer/planer to be received end Feb.

[james sandel]

Thanks Bret for that info I will order the same casters at http://www.greatlakescaster.com/products.php?cat=262. I'd never heard of the company before your post. That will save me some money. I'll need the extra to buy new blades.

How do you, operate, get the wheels to contact the floor?

[Shiraz Balolia]

Shiraz, I believe it would be a little easier to compare your inventory against itself, as well as against others, if you provided a comparison chart/spreadsheet. You have such a large selection, in each category, which can get somewhat over whelming when trying to make a decision.

James - Thank you for the business. I am working on a comparison chart that will make it easy to quickly see the various differences between the Grizzly saws.
Bret - Thank you for the business as well. The G0636 is selling encouragingly well. So far, everyone that has bought one seems extremely pleased.

[Bob Willcox]

You will be very pleased with the quality of this bandsaw. I just received and set up mine. Consider the greatlakescaster.com stabilizing casters at $11.49 each they work great. They bolt right into existing holes used to bolt saw to the delivery pallet. Moving saw takes about as much effort as pushing an empty grocery cart on a smooth concrete floor. Resawed some 6in redwood with included 1" blade took some effort with good results. Put a lenox trimaster 2/3 put on today cuts same boards with almost no effort and very smooth finish. Saw is heavy, I had the good fortune to have a forklift available, you will need assistance and some creative mechanical help if no forklift. Note the eyebolts that came with mine were too small size for bolt hole. Probably size sent was for other saws. Yours may come with correct size, did not use mine (pretty minor negative). Will try to put together proper gloat with pictures. So happy with the value and quality of this saw I put in my order for the G0633 jointer/planer to be received end Feb.
I just recently bought a G0636X as well. So far I haven't been able to try it out yet (lots of unrelated distractions) but I am very interested in the casters that you used to mobilize yours. I have mine currently on the mobile base that I got from Grizzly, but it takes me, my son, and great deal of effort to move it around. Are the casters that you used the 1.75" Stabilizing Casters on the greatlakescasters.com website?

[John Bush]

Hi Bob,
Do a google search here on SMC for a post I made on 1-9-08: Got Mig???Home made mobile bases". I made bases for my G531 and G609X using the Great Lakes Castors. They are the ~$12.00 ones and have worked very well. I move the jointer just a foot or so as needed, but these castors allow me to tuck the BS against the wall and pull it out and rotate as needed with minimal effort. I haven't needed to tighten the "feet" yet when using the jointer but do tighten on the BS. With regard to the use of the castors on the lathe, I had mentioned that there was no shaking when larger out of balance blanks were spinning, Well that is not entirely true. A friend was using it the other day spinning a large cherry blank and there was some vibration. I am new enough at this that I don't know what to expect, but my friend didn't seem to be bothered by it. Good luck, John.

[Bill Jepson]

Shiraz,
Please let me second or third the comments of thanks for your taking the time to comment on the forum! Your time is well spent as I will also be taking a renewed look at the G0636X. I'm a mechanical engineer at a large manufacturer of vacuum (scientific) products in California and I sympathize about doing the increased paperwork. The farther you go in business the more difficult it can be to enjoy the end product! I might also add that without lots of experience it can be very difficult to evaluate sizes and construction in exploded-view drawings. The direct explaination you have provided is invaluable. Often products I have drawn myself, "don't look right", when I put them in an EXACT scale drawing generated by a CAD solid model system! Most people don't have a perfect sense of perspective OR micrometer eyeballs. Thank You again Shiraz.
Bill J

[Shiraz Balolia]

James - Thank you for the business. I am working on a comparison chart that will make it easy to quickly see the various differences between the Grizzly saws.


Here is a copy of the comparison chart as promised:
82114

[Lance Norris]

Here is a copy of the comparison chart as promised:
82114

Thats a great reference. Im sure it will help many people make an informed decision.

[Jody Malinich]

Shiraz,
Thanks for being here. It helps knowing that we can get no "bull" answers from you. :D

[Peter Quadarella]

That's great Shiraz, thanks a lot! That will help in my decision immensely.

[John Keeton]

As in all things, one generally gets what one pays for. Tomorrow I am getting delivery of my 4th and last (at least for a while) Griz tool. I pondered all of them as this was a revamp of my entire shop. On the bandsaw, I ended up with the 513x2 and, for the money, it is a lot of saw. That said, there is a lot more saw in the 636x and, if it fits your needs, has to be a better saw. For my needs, the choice clearly was the 513x2. I sold my 15 year old 16" Griz BS and it served me well, but the quality has vastly improved. I am sold on the Griz!! Good tools, good company, and great service.

[James Biddle]

Here is a copy of the comparison chart as promised:
82114
Anyone got the same specs that Shiraz listed for his bandsaws for the MM16 and Laguna LT16HD? The specs on their websites don't contain a lot of the same info.

[Ron Kellison]

Does anyone have any experience with using 1/2" or 3/8" blades on the G0636?

[Eddie Darby]

Scott - In view of the new information, would you have gotten the Grizzly BS now?

[Scott Seigmund]

Scott - In view of the new information, would you have gotten the Grizzly BS now?


The short answer is no.

[James Tetreault]

I just purchased a G0636X and I am very impressed, its a tank. I've been cutting a lot of white pine 8-10" thich at about 0.25" x 10' with no problems, motor doesn't even know there is wood being cut. I also cut some black walnut at 1/16th of an inch thick using a Timberwolf 3/4" AS-S blade. Everything on this saw is heavy duty, I cannot see how anyone could go wrong with this saw. Just ordered a G0604X 6" jointer through Grizzly's e-bay site, some paint blemishes but only $450 + $94 shipping. If it's as well built as the G0636X I am sure to be happy.