Dowelmax vs. tradition and the intangible mystique thing

[Bill Bryant]

From what I've been able to read about it, the Dowelmax takes the dowel joint to a new level of strength and precision rivaling that of the mortise and tenon, at least for all practical purposes.

Nonetheless, there seems to be a sense among woodworkers that the Dowelmax doesn't have the "Zen" of M & T.

Leaving aside the intangible mystique thing--curls of transparent shavings on the floor, hide glue bubbling, mules dragging the timber up the slope from the canal, Grandpa spitting tobacco--is there any real reason not to use a Dowelmax to make, say, a mission-style chest of drawers of the very finest quality?

[James Phillips]

The cost of a dowelmax gets you almost halfway to a Domino.

For mission style the dowel max is not going to give you the look of a through tenon unless you do a false tenon on the front.

From a practical stand point it is going to be strong enough, but if you are trying to speed up the building process I would consider loose tenons, either with a domino or router table. Since there is a flat surface you can make the slots SLIGHTLY to long to aid with the fit and not have to worry about compromised strength

[John Viola]

Strength aside, why not? If it's a hidden joint, then I don't think it really matters what method you use. I agree with your original sentiment, though. Kind of goes back to the hand-v-power tool debate, which will never be agreed upon.

Personally I would not use a DowelMax. That is because I do not own one. ;)

[Jim Becker]

From what I've been able to read about it, the Dowelmax takes the dowel joint to a new level of strength and precision rivaling that of the mortise and tenon, at least for all practical purposes.So compliments of Google, I took a look at the DowelMax. It looks like a nice product and certainly should be able to help insure that dowels are placed accurately for maximum benefit. Whether it "rivals" anything is not so clear-cut in my mind...there are too many possible permutations. Considering that dowels are merely "loose tenons", like Dominos and "traditional" loose tenons, it's more matter of execution and scale...joinery is an exercise in providing strength for the kind of stress that said joint will need to deal with. Do that well, and all will be peachy. Do it badly and your "customers" will be displeased...

[Bill Bryant]

The cost of a dowelmax gets you almost halfway to a Domino.

I already own a high quality cordless drill. That gets me almost half way to a DowelMax system. :D

[Bill Huber]

I think this debate could go on forever and ever and there will still be no real define end to it.

For me I really like the DowelMax, it has done very well for me in what I have used it on. Now I have not built any fine furniture as of yet and I do think a thou tenon is a really nice looking joint.

The things I have built with the DowleMax it has really proven to be a great tool, yes it was a little high priced but then look at the Domino.

I guess if I was making a living at building furniture and cabinets then a Domino would be a very good tool to have. I do feel the Domino is faster but then again I am not really worried about the time.

[Chris Friesen]

From what I've been able to read about it, the Dowelmax takes the dowel joint to a new level of strength and precision rivaling that of the mortise and tenon, at least for all practical purposes.

1) You can't pin a dowel joint, so if the glue ever fails you're out of luck.

2) Unless you're butting the end grain of two boards together, you have very little long grain to long grain gluing surface in at least one of your boards.

3) No long-term testing. How will dowel joints last over 100 years? We know that well-made traditional M&T joints will last that long.

Personally I might use dowels for alignment, but I'm not sure I'd trust them as a structural fastener in solid wood. In particleboard/MDF I bet they'd work great though, since the material doesn't have grain and they usually aren't used for things that are expected to last a long time.

[Rick Gooden]

I purchased a dowelmax a few months ago and I am quite pleased with the results. This is just another option for joinery, and a very good one. When used with the "expansible" dowels, which expand when glued, I would say the joint will stand the test of time. In reality I wont be around 100 years from now and don't think I will be concerned with longevity at that time. I use M&T also but really like having the dowelmax in the arsenal. For what it's worth.

[Jim Becker]

3) No long-term testing. How will dowel joints last over 100 years? We know that well-made traditional M&T joints will last that long.

I'm not so sure about this one, Chris...there is an awful lot of production furniture out there that was factory made using dowels. While dowel construction isn't my personal cup of tea, it does produce strong joinery when done correctly, especially with today's more advanced glues.

[Charles Green]

I've had the dowelmax for a few months. It is much faster (for me) than M&T joints.

I have built two table with it so far. Each table had about 40 dowels and it went together perfectly with no alignment issues. It took me about 30 minutes to drill all of the holes for the table. It is extremely strong. I personally do not believe it to be any weaker than mortise and tenon. I have stood on top of one of the table and bounced up and down without any movement. How much more do you need?

As far as cost I disagree with the comparison to the Domino. The Domino is $700 and $300 extra for all of the things most people buy to use it. The Dowelmax is $270 and includes everything you need. Add $30 for a cheap corded drill and the price difference is huge. I have played with the Domino and if the price were the same I would go with the Domino but for the $700 difference (once you buy all the accessories) I'll buy myself something else.

Anyway after all the rambling, since I bought the Dowelmax I don't miss an opportunity to talk about it. It really is amazing.

[richard poitras]

One more vote for the Dowelmax, I build two sets of double bunk beds and used a total of about 400 dowels and it save me a lot of time and effort, every thing lined up perfectly with not issues. The beds work just great and they have a lot of strength, if you think about it each bed can hold 4 adults and some of them were of good size, you do the math! They are holding up just fine. As fare as strength most people are thinking a single row of dowels but if you need extra strength all you need to do is double up the dowels very easy to do with the dowelmax system …

[simo sentissi]

Anybody wanna sell theirs ?
I worked with it on a demo and I liked it very much (I am a M&T guy myself)
but wouldn't spend 300 on it yet.

[Chris Zenda]

I'd love to have a dowelmax if it weren't obscenely priced.:eek::eek::eek:

[Wade Lippman]

It is purely a matter of taste. Properly used it will be stronger than you need and last as long as you could ask.

Personally I don't like the look of through tenons; they are scars. Okay, the piece might not be "authentic" without them, but it will look better.
It is much like "beauty marks". I have remarked to my wife that a woman ought to have a mole removed; she would be much better looking without it. She tells me they are not moles, they are "beauty marks" and make the woman more beautiful. Okay, sure. Same with tenons.

[Mike Cutler]

From what I've been able to read about it, the Dowelmax takes the dowel joint to a new level of strength and precision rivaling that of the mortise and tenon, at least for all practical purposes.

Nonetheless, there seems to be a sense among woodworkers that the Dowelmax doesn't have the "Zen" of M & T.

Leaving aside the intangible mystique thing--curls of transparent shavings on the floor, hide glue bubbling, mules dragging the timber up the slope from the canal, Grandpa spitting tobacco--is there any real reason not to use a Dowelmax to make, say, a mission-style chest of drawers of the very finest quality?

Bill
There is nothing wrong with dowels. they have been around for many centuries now. The biggest problem with dowels them was the accurate placement of multiple dowels to provide enough integral strength in some bigger joints. I see nothing wrong with using dowel max.
Forget the "Zen" of the M&T joint. If the joint has strength,and will last. That is the most important criteria. ( I'm a dyed in the wool traditional M&T guy too.)

However..... There always has to be one right?
The last line of your final paragraph tells me not to recommend the DowelMax in this instance.
The purist in me feels that if you want to replicate a mission piece "of the very finest quality". That you should use the traditional joinery of that style/period, which is the M&T joint as an integral design element,and functional joint.
Greene and Greene used a lot of "Faux Tenons" in their Arts and Crafts style, and Dowel max could be utilized in that type of style piece. But the Mission Style was Stickley here in the US, as influenced by Morris. Heavy timbers, and through M&T joinery.
There is nothing wrong with the Dowelmax though. It's not cheap or sleazy. It's just not "pure Mission".
By the way, I deviate from tradition with Mission and A&C furniture. I do not like the appearance of Quartersawn white oak. So I don't use it.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I own neither the Dowelmax or the Domino but...


The cost of a dowelmax gets you almost halfway to a Domino.

Check your math. This really isn't the case. And even if it was true, just because it costs 1/2 the price doesn't mean that you might as well spend the rest of the money and get the one that costs twice as much. For many/most wood workers the cost of a tool is one of the biggest limiting factors when making a purchase.

For mission style the dowel max is not going to give you the look of a through tenon unless you do a false tenon on the front.

Since you're comparing the Domino to the Dowelmax, the Domino won't be any better at the through tenon than the Dowlmax.

From a practical stand point it is going to be strong enough, but if you are trying to speed up the building process I would consider loose tenons, either with a domino or router table. Since there is a flat surface you can make the slots SLIGHTLY to long to aid with the fit and not have to worry about compromised strength

From what I've read and seen of the Dowelmax it will be faster than loose tenons on the router table. The Domino is certainly the fastest though. I'm not in that much of a hurry though. ;)

[Art Mann]

I am another Dowelmax fan. I would like to have a Domino, but just can't justify the expense. Either device is much, much faster than using M&T joints in my experience - and I have done quite a few of both types of joints. Recently, a magazine article evaluated the strength of dowels vs. the Domino joint and their findings were that the dowels are slightly stronger. I like Jim Becker's description of dowels which is pretty insightful. Dowels are nothing more than small round loose tenons that are used in multiples. Dowels are not a new innovation as someone implied, but have been used for centuries in fine furniture.

I still like to use M&T in certain applications where strength is really important. Recently, I used them on the door frame for a curio cabinet with fairly thin rails and stiles and very heavy glass. Dowels would probably have been fine, but I just feel a little more confident with the strength of a nice snug M&T joint.

[Tim Sproul]

I'm not so sure about this one, Chris...there is an awful lot of production furniture out there that was factory made using dowels. While dowel construction isn't my personal cup of tea, it does produce strong joinery when done correctly, especially with today's more advanced glues.


Get a copy of Hoadley's "Understanging Wood" book. He gives a pretty good explanation for why dowel joints generally don't hold up over many years. It basically has to do with differential shrinkage in tangential versus radial shrinkage for nearly any wood. Then again, many joints don't hold up well over many years....although certain ones such as wedged or drawbored mortise and tenon do.


In general, joint longevity is dependent on execution of the joint and proper engineering of the joint - size and type of joint for a given purpose. IMO, execution is the most critical...a little bit of slop in a joint quickly becomes a lot of slop over a few years of stress. Woos choice also plays a critical role in joint execution...cutting your parts out so that thay have a lot of grain runout versus cutting out parts so the grain goes with the length of the part is very important for both aesthetics and joint strength. Grain runout makes the face and/or edge of the board act more like endgrain in terms of glue adhesion. It also makes the part more prone to fracturing under stress....just like it makes the part more likely to split/break if you try to bend the part.

The Dowelmax is a great doweling jig, but I wouldn't rely on dowels for a longlasting joint.

[Dan Barr]

i agree with having the mortise and tenon for the TRUE mission style piece. otherwise, the dowelmax or dowels will do just fine.

do you have a mortiser and/or tenon jig? (or a dado set) i have all three.

i use my tenon jig and dado set in tandem and can have the tenons done in no time at all. i can get my mortises done really quick too with the mortiser. minimal checking and paring after that.

v/r

dan

[Scott Brihn]

Get a copy of Hoadley's "Understanging Wood" book. He gives a pretty good explanation for why dowel joints generally don't hold up over many years. It basically has to do with differential shrinkage in tangential versus radial shrinkage for nearly any wood. Then again, many joints don't hold up well over many years....although certain ones such as wedged or drawbored mortise and tenon do.

The Dowelmax is a great doweling jig, but I wouldn't rely on dowels for a longlasting joint.

IMHO the perception of dowel joints by woodworking enthusiasts is analogous to the perception of veneer by non-woodworking enthusiasts. For a college speech class I created and delivered a speech entitled "Veneer is good". If memory serves I scored well with that piece.

Prior to purchasing a Dowelmax this fall I referenced Hoadley's research on doweled joints (pg.170 of "Understanding Wood"). In an end grain to side grain joint Hoadley indicates "...a high degree of integrity can be expected."

He does acknowledge that dowels are often misused when used to align an edge grain to edge grain joint. In his opinion if dowels are used for alignment purposes they should be short, not glued, and the bores should be slightly deeper than the dowels. The misuse occurs when we chose dowels which are "good and long" and glue them in "good and tight". In this scenario swelling and shrinkage can compromise the joint.

I'm delighted with my Dowelmax. It is one of the few woodworking related items I have purchased that exceeded my expectations.

[Art Mann]

The dowel pins sold and recommended by Dowelmax are compressed and not just machined to size. The moisture in the glue tends to swell the pin to it's original size. This property eliminates a lot of the failure issues assocaited with dowels in the past.

My MIL has a credenza I built for her over 30 years ago using dowel joints. The piece is as strong today as it was then. No cracks or looseness has appeared in any of the joints. That tends to give me confidence in the long term durability of the dowel joint.

[simo sentissi]

I would go with a bench mortiser way before going to dowelmax and just because of the price. for other joint I can make dadoes with the router or dado blades.
If dowelmax was at about $150 then it would have been ok.

obviously, I have no problem with the dowel joints since I think there is a place, people and usage for all types joints.

Cheers !

[Bob Lang]

Although dowels may seem good enough for now, I don't consider them to be a viable long-term joint. Having seen lots of 100 year old pieces, the ones falling apart are the ones doweled, while mortise and tenons hold together.

The issue is seasonal movement. Given enough time the dowel or the hole distort and become out of round, at that point there is precious little holding the joint together. R. Bruce Hoadley wrote about this in an article in FWW some years ago, I believe the title was "Why Round Tenons Fall Out of Round Holes.

Bob Lang

[Bill Bryant]

I would go with a bench mortiser way before going to dowelmax and just because of the price. for other joint I can make dadoes with the router or dado blades.
If dowelmax was at about $150 then it would have been ok.

The difference between $150 and $250 means nothing if you intend to make many pieces of furniture with your tools. What matters more is efficiency, accuracy, and strength. If a person could make twenty coffee tables using a Dowelmax in the the time it would take to make fifteen using M&T, and if the dowelmax didn't compromise strength in any meaningful way, the asking price of the Dowelmax is no barrier whatsoever.

Something just occurred to me. If Dowelmax was made as a specialized head on a motor that drove the bit in, if it in fact looked a lot like a biscuit cutter or Domino, it might be regarded in a different light. Put a motor on something (instead of relying on the user to supply his own) and up goes the percieved value of both the tool and the result. No? OK, just a thought.

[Richard Dragin]

....................I build two sets of double bunk beds and used a total of about 400 dowels and it save me a lot of time and effort, every thing lined up perfectly with not issues. The beds work just great and they have a lot of strength, if you think about it each bed can hold 4 adults and some of them were of good size, you do the math!...............…

OK, I'll give it a shot.

two sets of double bunk beds = 4 beds
4 adults per bed x 4 beds = 16 adults
400 dowels / 16 adults= 25 dowels per adult

What do i win? And, why do you have so many adults sleeping in bunk beds?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, first off, I don't own a plate joiner, a Domino or a Dowelmax. I normally make furniture with box joints, dovetails, dadoes, M & T etc.

Many antique pieces of furniture incorporate dowels in their construction, as do many modern pieces.

The failures of dowel joints that I have seen have all been in joints that would have traditionally been a mortise and tenon, AND have been subject to severe loads and racking such as chair applications.

For less severe duty such as table legs, dowels would probably be a good compromise between speed and strength. Most furniture designs are a compromise, there's always a stronger method of doing anything, the good design will be the one that provides the required service at the required price.

I have to admit however that I use M & T joints, whether the design requires them or not. I guess in that case, my furniture is not optimally engineered.

Regards, Rod.

[Eric Franklin]

How does the BeadLOCK compare with the DowelMax and M&T?

[Kurt Loup]

Anyway after all the rambling, since I bought the Dowelmax I don't miss an opportunity to talk about it. It really is amazing.


No kidding. This guy doesn't lie. He came over to my house and told me about it. :D

Kurt

[Jim Becker]

How does the BeadLOCK compare with the DowelMax and M&T?


Just another way to do loose tenon joinery...

[Dan Barr]

also,

just of note and maybe not applicable at all here.


Unless you bounce around from method to method with numerous projects you will probably have a primary mothod of joinery. Once you are practiced or buy one product and work that way for a while, it will be your primary method. you probably wont move on to something else unless the project calls for it specifically and even then, you might design your primary method into the project anyway due to not wanting to learn something new or risk a mistake.

i tend to use mortise and tenon joinery for just about everything. plenty of dovetails, rabbets and dados as well. basically anything i can do with hand tools, tablesaw and drill press. and thats A LOT!

im not equipped for biscuits or dominoes but can do dowels. i just dont do them though because i design with mortise and tenon so much. i dont want to buy anymore equipment than i have to either! :) YEA RIGHT!!! if it werent for the S.O., i'd have a warehouse for a woodshop and a sawmill for a playground! :D

this being said, its easy to stick to one thing once youre set up for it and well practiced.

the question is this: What method would you choose assuming that it might become your primary method for a good long time?

v/r

dan

[Robert Mayer]

I love my dowelmax. You wont find a single person saying anything negative about its performance.

My biggest issue is that sometimes I feel a bit lazy for using it. Its so easy and quick, but I have complete confidence in the dowels strength. When I have more time on my hands and can spend more time making traditional joints I would like to. Kinda like using mostly handtools, I just dont have the patience or the time right now. But I would eventually like to split my time 50/50 between power tools and handtools.

Until then the dowelmax rules the shop. I used a few hundred 2" dowels on this fishtank, its holding up 700 pounds of water with ease. I used the dowels on the entire frame and doors. The dowels on the center support and sides were done at an angle which took some creativity.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-2/1246550/DSCN2290.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-2/1246550/DSCN1808.JPG

[Dan Barr]

just what im talking about. :D

v/r

dan

[Jim Lindsay]

Although dowels may seem good enough for now, I don't consider them to be a viable long-term joint. Having seen lots of 100 year old pieces, the ones falling apart are the ones doweled, while mortise and tenons hold together.

The issue is seasonal movement. Given enough time the dowel or the hole distort and become out of round, at that point there is precious little holding the joint together. R. Bruce Hoadley wrote about this in an article in FWW some years ago, I believe the title was "Why Round Tenons Fall Out of Round Holes.

Bob Lang

I have read all the posts and comments on the value of dowels in comparison with various other wood joining methods. At the outset I was not prepared to comment, however since I have lived and breathed dowel joinery for the past 15 years, I felt I would have something to contribute, particularly since the question appears to remain unanswered.

I have just begun reading the article by R. Bruce Hoadley and it should be noted that this article, whilst excellent, was written in January 1980. Mr. Hoadley states on the second paragraph – "the very nature of wood ensures that it eventually can come loose. However some recent research encourages me to believe that soon we will have a dowel joint that is successful, virtually indestructible."

In the dark distant past, the problem with wood joints was of course, moisture and alternating temperatures and conditions. The mortise and tenon is an incredibly efficient system of joining wood but why it is immune to these varying conditions at the moment escapes me.

Four crucial changes have taken place since the article was written by Mr. Hoadley, these are as follows: (1) accuracy has improved ten fold (2) multiple, single, double and triple rows of dowels are now the norm (3) kiln dried, compressed dowels are now available and (4) the quality of glues available now is exceptional.

Approximately six years ago as a project and example, I joined the front end of an end table (a 1 x 6 to a 2 x 2) using 6 dowels on the one joint. It was clamped without glue and subsequently I could not get it apart. It is in my workshop now and it still will not come apart. I am convinced the wood would break before the joint would open up.

I have conducted numerous destructive tests on various joint systems and the results have been enlightening. These tests have, to the most part, been witnessed by independent parties. The last test showed that a multiple dowel joint was 30.8% stronger than a routed mortise and tenon and 58.9% stronger than a double domino.

What I am saying is true and it seems apparent that this knowledge should be imparted to the woodworking fraternity. Therefore my challenge is to member Bob Lang, who it would appear would have the ability to make this information available. If a related article could be published, I would at my own expense, travel to the magazine location with all joining systems, including biscuit, beadlock, domino, mortise and tenon and multiple dowel, so that joint strength can be tested under rigid controls, following which the question will finally be answered. Alternatively under the same conditions, I would like to invite member Bob Lang to come to our offices and supervise the testing in person.

Jim Lindsay,
Inventor and President of Dowelmax

[Bill Huber]

I have read all the posts and comments on the value of dowels in comparison with various other wood joining methods. At the outset I was not prepared to comment, however since I have lived and breathed dowel joinery for the past 15 years, I felt I would have something to contribute, particularly since the question appears to remain unanswered.

I have just begun reading the article by R. Bruce Hoadley and it should be noted that this article, whilst excellent, was written in January 1980. Mr. Hoadley states on the second paragraph – "the very nature of wood ensures that it eventually can come loose. However some recent research encourages me to believe that soon we will have a dowel joint that is successful, virtually indestructible."

In the dark distant past, the problem with wood joints was of course, moisture and alternating temperatures and conditions. The mortise and tenon is an incredibly efficient system of joining wood but why it is immune to these varying conditions at the moment escapes me.

Four crucial changes have taken place since the article was written by Mr. Hoadley, these are as follows: (1) accuracy has improved ten fold (2) multiple, single, double and triple rows of dowels are now the norm (3) kiln dried, compressed dowels are now available and (4) the quality of glues available now is exceptional.

Approximately six years ago as a project and example, I joined the front end of an end table (a 1 x 6 to a 2 x 2) using 6 dowels on the one joint. It was clamped without glue and subsequently I could not get it apart. It is in my workshop now and it still will not come apart. I am convinced the wood would break before the joint would open up.

I have conducted numerous destructive tests on various joint systems and the results have been enlightening. These tests have, to the most part, been witnessed by independent parties. The last test showed that a multiple dowel joint was 30.8% stronger than a routed mortise and tenon and 58.9% stronger than a double domino.

What I am saying is true and it seems apparent that this knowledge should be imparted to the woodworking fraternity. Therefore my challenge is to member Bob Lange, who it would appear would have the ability to make this information available. If a related article could be published, I would at my own expense, travel to the magazine location with all joining systems, including biscuit, beadlock, domino, mortise and tenon and multiple dowel, so that joint strength can be tested under rigid controls, following which the question will finally be answered. Alternatively under the same conditions, I would like to invite member Bob Lange to come to our offices and supervise the testing in person.

Jim Lindsay,
Inventor and President of Dowelmax

Jim, welcome to the forum !!!!


I would like to thank you for an outstanding tool, I use it a lot and it is one the the tools I just couldn't do without.

Thanks !!!!

[Robert Mayer]

Its the only tool I dont have a single complaint about.

[Chris Friesen]

I have conducted numerous destructive tests on various joint systems and the results have been enlightening. These tests have, to the most part, been witnessed by independent parties. The last test showed that a multiple dowel joint was 30.8% stronger than a routed mortise and tenon and 58.9% stronger than a double domino.

What I would really like to see is accelerated-aging testing of various joints.

I believe that a dowel joint could start out stronger than a M&T joint (for some number of dowels vs a specific size of M&T), but I have a hard time believing that it would last as long as a wedged or pinned M&T in the face of repeated stress and humidity/temperature cycling.

Also, in many of the tests I've seen the comparison is not realistic. They tend to try to compare "equivalent wood size", or "equivalent gluing area", or some such.

If I'm building for strength in a M&T joint I'm not going to use a stubby little tenon. I'm going to make it a long tenon, with it's thickness maybe a third the thickness of the stock so the mortise walls are strong, and I'll either wedge it or pin it as appropriate.

[Bill Bryant]

I have read all the posts and comments on the value of dowels in comparison with various other wood joining methods. At the outset I was not prepared to comment, however since I have lived and breathed dowel joinery for the past 15 years, I felt I would have something to contribute, particularly since the question appears to remain unanswered.

I have just begun reading the article by R. Bruce Hoadley and it should be noted that this article, whilst excellent, was written in January 1980. Mr. Hoadley states on the second paragraph – "the very nature of wood ensures that it eventually can come loose. However some recent research encourages me to believe that soon we will have a dowel joint that is successful, virtually indestructible."

In the dark distant past, the problem with wood joints was of course, moisture and alternating temperatures and conditions. The mortise and tenon is an incredibly efficient system of joining wood but why it is immune to these varying conditions at the moment escapes me.

Four crucial changes have taken place since the article was written by Mr. Hoadley, these are as follows: (1) accuracy has improved ten fold (2) multiple, single, double and triple rows of dowels are now the norm (3) kiln dried, compressed dowels are now available and (4) the quality of glues available now is exceptional.

Approximately six years ago as a project and example, I joined the front end of an end table (a 1 x 6 to a 2 x 2) using 6 dowels on the one joint. It was clamped without glue and subsequently I could not get it apart. It is in my workshop now and it still will not come apart. I am convinced the wood would break before the joint would open up.

I have conducted numerous destructive tests on various joint systems and the results have been enlightening. These tests have, to the most part, been witnessed by independent parties. The last test showed that a multiple dowel joint was 30.8% stronger than a routed mortise and tenon and 58.9% stronger than a double domino.

What I am saying is true and it seems apparent that this knowledge should be imparted to the woodworking fraternity. Therefore my challenge is to member Bob Lang, who it would appear would have the ability to make this information available. If a related article could be published, I would at my own expense, travel to the magazine location with all joining systems, including biscuit, beadlock, domino, mortise and tenon and multiple dowel, so that joint strength can be tested under rigid controls, following which the question will finally be answered. Alternatively under the same conditions, I would like to invite member Bob Lang to come to our offices and supervise the testing in person.

Jim Lindsay,
Inventor and President of Dowelmax

That sounds like a fair challenge, Jim, and thanks for joining the conversation (pardon the pun). After a lot of research, I've decided to ask my wife for only one thing this Christmas--a Dowelmax. That's because I can't find a single owner who isn't totally positive about it. Now that's truly amazing, given the nature of the Internet, not to be able to find a single Dowelmax owner who isn't enthusiastic about it.

[Mike Henderson]

I have read all the posts and comments on the value of dowels in comparison with various other wood joining methods. At the outset I was not prepared to comment, however since I have lived and breathed dowel joinery for the past 15 years, I felt I would have something to contribute, particularly since the question appears to remain unanswered.

I have just begun reading the article by R. Bruce Hoadley and it should be noted that this article, whilst excellent, was written in January 1980. Mr. Hoadley states on the second paragraph – "the very nature of wood ensures that it eventually can come loose. However some recent research encourages me to believe that soon we will have a dowel joint that is successful, virtually indestructible."

In the dark distant past, the problem with wood joints was of course, moisture and alternating temperatures and conditions. The mortise and tenon is an incredibly efficient system of joining wood but why it is immune to these varying conditions at the moment escapes me.

Four crucial changes have taken place since the article was written by Mr. Hoadley, these are as follows: (1) accuracy has improved ten fold (2) multiple, single, double and triple rows of dowels are now the norm (3) kiln dried, compressed dowels are now available and (4) the quality of glues available now is exceptional.

Approximately six years ago as a project and example, I joined the front end of an end table (a 1 x 6 to a 2 x 2) using 6 dowels on the one joint. It was clamped without glue and subsequently I could not get it apart. It is in my workshop now and it still will not come apart. I am convinced the wood would break before the joint would open up.

I have conducted numerous destructive tests on various joint systems and the results have been enlightening. These tests have, to the most part, been witnessed by independent parties. The last test showed that a multiple dowel joint was 30.8% stronger than a routed mortise and tenon and 58.9% stronger than a double domino.

What I am saying is true and it seems apparent that this knowledge should be imparted to the woodworking fraternity. Therefore my challenge is to member Bob Lang, who it would appear would have the ability to make this information available. If a related article could be published, I would at my own expense, travel to the magazine location with all joining systems, including biscuit, beadlock, domino, mortise and tenon and multiple dowel, so that joint strength can be tested under rigid controls, following which the question will finally be answered. Alternatively under the same conditions, I would like to invite member Bob Lang to come to our offices and supervise the testing in person.

Jim Lindsay,
Inventor and President of Dowelmax
I would be very interested in such a comparison but there'd have to be an agreement as to what is being compared. For example, it may be appropriate to make sure that each of the joinery techniques have the same glue surface. It may also be appropriate that each technique have the same penetration into the wood. There's probably a bunch of additional specifications that would have to be agreed to.

There's no one with a financial interest in the traditional M&T, but the Domino people may be willing to go head-to-head with Dowelmax in a comparison where everyone agreed in advance as to the conditions of the tests.

Left to themselves, the Domino people will produce conclusive proof that their technique is best, and the Dowelmax people will produce conclusive proof that theirs is the best.

I must admit that my opinion of dowel joinery has been somewhat below M&T or floating M&T. I've seen too many failed chairs put together with dowels. But I am willing to be convinced by a well thought out, unbiased test.

Mike

[richard poitras]

All said and done there are a lot of opinions about the jig and the strength of the joints. One of the great things about the system is it versatility. I recommend going to their site and check out the videos and if you have questions give them a call, you can talk to the owner of the company. He is a very nice guy and can fill you in on any and all your concerns (granted he is the owner of the company but you be the judge)….

[Brandon Shew]

1) You can't pin a dowel joint, so if the glue ever fails you're out of luck.

Sure you can. The size of the pin obvoiusly is relative to the size of the dowel, but on a 3/8" or larger dowel, I could see that it could be pinned.

[Bruce Glazier]

I have the dowelmax. Works fine for me.

[George Bregar]

By the way, I deviate from tradition with Mission and A&C furniture. I do not like the appearance of Quartersawn white oak. So I don't use it. That's just the lacquer fumes talking ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/Hellrot325/qswo.jpg
QSWO
1. 1/3 Trans-tint Reddish Brown 2/3 TT Dark Mission Brown and Distilled water
2. BLO rub out w 0000 to pop the medullary rays
3. 2# blond shellac barrier coat
4. Old Master Dark Walnut Gel Stain graining...apply across, wipe off with grain
5. 2# blond shellac barrier coat
6. 3 coats General Finishes Hi-Perf H2O Poly sprayed

M&T only. That's why I woodwork.

[Norman Hitt]

1) You can't pin a dowel joint, so if the glue ever fails you're out of luck.

2) Unless you're butting the end grain of two boards together, you have very little long grain to long grain gluing surface in at least one of your boards.

3) No long-term testing. How will dowel joints last over 100 years? We know that well-made traditional M&T joints will last that long.

Personally I might use dowels for alignment, but I'm not sure I'd trust them as a structural fastener in solid wood. In particleboard/MDF I bet they'd work great though, since the material doesn't have grain and they usually aren't used for things that are expected to last a long time.

For STRENGTH information, check out the Joinery strength tests (both pull and shear) in the latest issue of (Wood Mag IIRC), and there was another article in one of the Mags recently that was a little surprising (to me at least) that showed that the Pinned tenon gave no more strength than a regular tenon and showed that the tenon broke out between the "Pin hole" and the end of the tenon.

Note: The above is for information purposes only, as I do not have a Dowelmaster, (but would kind of like to), and have formed no solidly irreversible opinion as yet on the above topic.:confused::D

[Dan Barr]

Very nice pieces. Thanks for the tip on the finish too.

dan

[Mike Cutler]

Nice work George. Those are beautiful!!

The QSWO comment I made wasn't meant to bring any offense. If it has I apologize for that.
I made the comment to Bill to raise the point that deviating from tradition is perfectly acceptable, and is done. If Bill wants to build Mission Furniture with Faux Tenons and a DowelMax.There's nothing wrong with that, it's his project, time and $$$$.

I see you use the same "feline brush applicator" that I use sometimes.:D,;)

Once again. Beautiful work, especially on the finish.

[Tim Sproul]

For STRENGTH information, check out the Joinery strength tests (both pull and shear) in the latest issue of (Wood Mag IIRC), and there was another article in one of the Mags recently that was a little surprising (to me at least) that showed that the Pinned tenon gave no more strength than a regular tenon and showed that the tenon broke out between the "Pin hole" and the end of the tenon.


There was an even older FWW article that showed dowels were much weaker than mortise and tenon or biscuits. They did outdo a lag screwed rail/stile joint. Maybe today's dowels are better than that. Maybe they're not.

All 3 of the above reference articles are about as reliable as you farting enough while cooking to burn down your house. That is, I think they are far from being sound science. They don't have replicate samples and don't repeat the experiments showing average values and standard deviations, etc.

To me, there are 3 stresses that would need to be tested - tensile, shear and racking and under different conditions - slowly applying the force (perhaps over a minute), medium application of force (perhaps over 10 seconds) and then a 'shock' test where the force was applied very very very quickly and abrubtly. So we're up to 9 different test conditions. All that was tested was 1 condition in all three articles, IIRC. And the conditions tested in all 3 articles is very vague other than testing tensile, shear or racking stress.

As someone else pointed out, I'd also like to see a durability test. Constantly apply say 25% of the force to breakage and see how many cycles it takes for the joint to fail. And note how the joint fails - the older FWW article was kind of revealing in describing that the different methods could fail in very different manners even if the ultimate strength of the joinery methods were similar.

And then do the durability test in conjunction with an accelerated aging cycle - lots of wild moisture swings. I don't know how pragmatic an accelerated aging test would be since it is difficult to imagine getting the moisture content of the wood pieces to change quickly without raising the temperature a lot. And raising the temperature a lot will make all the commonly available adhesives much weaker.

[Gary Keedwell]

Gentlemen (and Ladies) I was ready to go to bed last nite when I clicked onto this very interesting thread. ( Thanks for keeping me up:mad::) ) It was very stimulating as it seems like there is alot of newbie stuff lately. (not that there is anything wrong with newbie stuff ).
Basically I'm bumping this up so maybe there might be more posts.
My only knock on dowels is the repetition of hole drilling. When I hear the numbers that are in the hundreds I kind of whence. I know that drilling the holes are probably faster then mortise and tenons, but being a machinist in my other life, usually hole drilling was avoided by the most experienced. Lets really be honest...does anybody look forward to drilling dozens, if not hundreds, of holes?
Gary

[Art Mann]

Gary,

I will be honest. I do not enjoy drilling dozens of holes. But, I enjoy tedious machine setup and trial cuts even less. I can use the Dowelmax to drill all the holes, glue, clamp and assemble a cabinet frame in less time than it takes to get my mortising and tenoning jigs set up to make the first joint. With the Dowelmax, there is no setup or trial cuts. Just follow the procedure and you get perfectly aligned joints every time.

M&T joints have their place and I do use them from time to time when maximum strength matters.

Art

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary,

I will be honest. I do not enjoy drilling dozens of holes. But, I enjoy tedious machine setup and trial cuts even less. I can use the Dowelmax to drill all the holes, glue, clamp and assemble a cabinet frame in less time than it takes to get my mortising and tenoning jigs set up to make the first joint. With the Dowelmax, there is no setup or trial cuts. Just follow the procedure and you get perfectly aligned joints every time.

M&T joints have their place and I do use them from time to time when maximum strength matters.

Art
I guess it depends on one's definition of tedious. It also depends on one's definition of woodworking. I'm just a hobbyist so speed is not in my equation for enjoyment. I find the enjoyment of concentrating on set-ups to be stimulating as opposed to the mindless motions of drilling. Not that there's anything wrong with drilling. There are times in a busy life that the results are more important especially if you are thinking of other things as you work.
I guess it's different strokes for different folks. :) As a compromise, it probably would be a good thing to have a method of easy joinery available for those times where a job has to be done expediently.
Gary

[Jim Lindsay]

My thanks to the members who welcomed me to the Forum. As you know, manufacturers have to be aware of Forum Etiquette, so I try to keep my posts to information only, however I wish to change a glaring error (noted by my better half!!) in my last post. When I mentioned woodworking "fraternity", it gave the impression that all woodworkers are men, and that is certainly not the case. So my sincere apologies to the ladies and I would like to change that post to "woodworking community". This thread has been extremely interesting and if there are any technical questions you think I might be able to help with, I would be pleased to offer my thoughts.

[Art Mann]

I guess it depends on one's definition of tedious. It also depends on one's definition of woodworking. I'm just a hobbyist so speed is not in my equation for enjoyment. I find the enjoyment of concentrating on set-ups to be stimulating as opposed to the mindless motions of drilling. Not that there's anything wrong with drilling. There are times in a busy life that the results are more important especially if you are thinking of other things as you work.
I guess it's different strokes for different folks. :) As a compromise, it probably would be a good thing to have a method of easy joinery available for those times where a job has to be done expediently.
Gary

Gary,

I don't know how you cut mortises and tenons, but I can't think of any way to do it that does not degenerate into mindless repetition after a while. The fact that you have to do so many of them in a typical piece of furniture pretty much assures you of that. To get any kind of productivity at all, you have to set up something of a production procedure where you do the same thing over and over again. I suppose you could chop out mortises with a chisel and cut tenons with a handsaw, but I am not skilled enough to do that and not patient enough to learn.

Art

[Bill Bryant]

My thanks to the members who welcomed me to the Forum. As you know, manufacturers have to be aware of Forum Etiquette, so I try to keep my posts to information only, however I wish to change a glaring error (noted by my better half!!) in my last post. When I mentioned woodworking "fraternity", it gave the impression that all woodworkers are men, and that is certainly not the case. So my sincere apologies to the ladies and I would like to change that post to "woodworking community". This thread has been extremely interesting and if there are any technical questions you think I might be able to help with, I would be pleased to offer my thoughts.

I very much appreciate your professionalism here. I haven't been a member of the woodworking "community" very long, but in other internet communities, shameless hawking of wares under the pretense of simple information sharing seems to be the norm. Thanks for your approach here. It's refreshing.

Jim, I don't have one of your tools yet, but I'm hoping very much that you've heard from my wife recently about that!

[Dan Barr]

Yes, mortises and tenons have to be done production style at some point. But they are still mortise and tenon joints after they are made. I dont take very long at all to set up my moritser, tenoning jig or dado stack.

with either method, you have to be conscious of the exact position of the joint to include all the dimensions, angle, depth, etc. whether its a mortise and tenon or a dowelmax, you have to get to that same degree of accuracy when it comes to the critical dimensions and measures.

maybe im rambling here, but the only real diferences are in the shape of the pieces in the joint. once practiced i believe both can be equally fast.

v/r

dan

[Bill Bryant]

Jim,

How did you arrive at using the 9.7mm drill bit for 3/8" dowels? Did you do a trial and error kind of thing, testing joints to destruction using various bits both smaller and larger than 3/8"? Did you start with one particular company's dowels and design from there, or what?

What is the drill bit size supplied with the 1/4" dowel bushings?

What is the actual inside diameter of your 3/8" and 1/4" bushings? (What are the biggest-diameter bits that can be used?)

[Art Mann]

. . . once practiced i believe both can be equally fast.

I don't want to offend, but I must disagree. I have done enough of both types of joints to know. There is zero setup with the Dowelmax. You just align the guide with the edge of the workpieces, shoot the holes, and you are done.

Even if you had someone to come set up your tablesaw and router jig or mortising machine for you ahead of time, you literally can't make the cuts nearly as fast as you can just drill the holes with the Dowelmax.

The Dowelmax website has some video clips that illustrate just how easy it is. I just think the owner should have gotten some nice looking girl to do the demo instead of himself, like the guy on woodshopdemos.com does.;)

I have been using dowel joinery for a long time. I built a credenza for my MIL thirty years ago using dowels for the face frames and doors. That piece looks as good now as it did then and there is no sign of the joints separating. That tells me a lot about the reliabiity of dowels.

I must be starting to sound like I am preaching, but I can assure everyone I am in no way affiliated with Dowelmax or the Jim guy. I just think that people are missing out on a very nice way to do wood joinery. The Dowelmax offers all the strength and reliability of the Domino and nearly the same speed and convenience, for 1/3 the cost. For most situations, dowels are just as good as M&T (IMNSHO).

[Dan Barr]

Art, i am not offended in the least, hopefully you wont be offended either.

But,

I beg to differ with your posted opinion though.

"There is zero setup with the Dowelmax"

I'm afraid you are wrong and that is very misleading to say the least.

What about those spacer blocks and the FOUR different configurations you have to SET UP, Choose and Align with the piece?

You still have to line the dowelmax up, very precisely to say the least. Its not as easy as you make it sound.

If i have a 2 1/2" x x2 1/2" leg and i want a rail to connect it to another leg and i want that rail in the center of the width of the leg and the rail is 1 1/8" and 2" and i want the 2" edge vertical and the 1 1/8" horizontal, then i cant just go slap on the dowelmax and think that it will align the holes where i want them. i have to get my spacers out and adjust up to the point where i want the holes, check the setting on a test piece and then go for the real thing. then i have to re-adjust my dowelmax and spacers to tackle the other piece in order to put the holes on center.

these legs and rails also need to contain a dado for a panel. i surely need to be very precise if im going to have that dado line up all the way around.

"You just align the guide with the edge of the workpieces, shoot the holes, and you are done."

Sorry, not that easy.

You have to choose how many dowels youre going to use in the piece and line up and center accordingly. You cant just go Shooting holes and expect one edge to line up with something else unless they are meant to be flush in the first place, which not all joints are flush.

YOU have to compensate and measure and ALIGN the dowelmax to make it do what you want.

I think you have misled a few people reading this post.

I stand by my statement. Once practiced, i believe both can be equally fast. I dont take hours to do mortice and tenons. i take minutes. I have to do them seperately of course. but, once i get the pieces off the saw or the mortiser, they usually fit pretty snug right off the tool. minimal paring.

v/r

dan

[Tim Marks]

How does the BeadLOCK compare with the DowelMax and M&T?
Would you like to buy the complete setup, including router bits to make the tennons (for both 3 and 5 hole tennons)? I will make you a REALLY great deal on them:D

The problem with the beadlock is that the internal drill guide tends to shift since the supplied thumbscrew do not put enough pressure on them to keep them in place. Adding larger handles onto the clamping bolts helps somewhat.

The other real problem is that it is not easy to make the tennons; I just never could seem to get the right thickness or get the edges aligned right.

I was initially excited by the idea; bought the whole system. After building a train table for my son with it (which incidently has held up very well for three years of him climbing on it), I decided that it just was too much work and there had to be better ways (like dowelmax for example).

[Art Mann]

Dan,

From your comments, it seems that either you haven't actually used a Dowelmax or you haven't used it as it was designed. If you are making trial cuts then you are doing something wrong. The design of the tool is such that the results are deterministic - no trial cuts are necessary. It is true that you sometimes use spacers, but you just drop them in place and tighten a screw. That is not the same thing as adjusting a tablesaw to cut the tenons to a precision thickness are setting up a router to cut the mortise exactly in the center of the workpiece.

I will say at the outset that the table scenario you described would require you to make some kind of special spacer to use the Dowelmax. The tool only comes with spacers to work with common sizes. In that case, I am not sure I would even use the Dowelmax, although it might still be easier than trying to set up a router or mortiser to do the job. But, the Dowelmax is not appropriate for every job. I think I already said that.

Your comment about centering the jig on the workpiece is not how the tool was designed to be used. You don't have to center anything. The key to precision with this tool is that it uses the edges and faces of the workpieces, rather than any kind of centering, to position the jig. For example, with face frames you line up the edge of the jig with the edge of the workpiece. Then, just drill as many dowel holes as will fit. It doesn't matter that the holes are not centered on the wood. The face of the material is used as the reference in the narrow dimension. Once again, it doesn't matter if it isn't exactly centered. It only matters that the drill pattern on the two workpieces is the same and are a consistent distance from the face surface. Take another look at the video on their website and you will see what I mean.

Recently, I built a curio cabinet out of cherry. I decided to use M&T for all the joinery because the door must support the weight of the heavy glass and I just wanted a little extra confidence in the strength. It took me a couple of hours to set up and cut all the joints using my router jig for the mortises and tablesaw and dado blade for the tenons. If my mortising stuff was out on the workbench to start with and I used it everyday, I might have done the job in an hour and a half. I remember thinking that if I had used the Dowelmax, I would have been done in about 30 minutes. That is my real life experience. Yours may be different.

Art

[Bill Bryant]

If you want dowels centered in a 2-1/2" table leg, you have Jim cut you a 7/8" spacer and off you go.

As Jim said it in an e-mail to me, "The rule for locating centers on any size of wood (also on page 17 of the instruction manual) is half the size of work piece and subtract 3/8 inch. So for your rails, a 3/8 inch spacer is required and is included in the kit. The 2 1/2 inch leg requires a 7/8 inch spacer. I can cut you spacers . . ."

[Dan Barr]

Me personally; I would not put the dowels off center.

maybe your saving a lot of time by doing that.

If i did put the dowels off center, then i would have to somehow match up the other pieces dowel holes. so then i would have to do the math on the new offset measurement.

either way, you have to adjust, measure, align, etc. how are you going to get that dado to match up perfectly with an offset like the one i mentioned?

no getting around it.

Yes the dowel max can be deterministic for perfectly cut pieces. but, if your piece is off dimension by a 1/64" or a 1/32" then what size spacer am i going to use then? just add half of that huh? how many spacers should i have at my disposal in order to FULLY utilize the system? I could just make one of every dimension, in incrementrs of 1/64" up to 2 or 3". thats only 128 or 192 spacers minus the ones supplied.

I know the dowelmax is a great product and that it speeds numerous projects up. but it cant speed them all up and if you are practiced at M&T then you could do those in the same time.

v/r

dan

[Art Mann]

Dan,

All I can tell you is that you are making some assumptions about how the jig works that are not correct. If you are really interested in understanding, I encourage you to watch the videos at their website carefully and see what I am talking about. I could show you in a few minutes if you were here. In most cases, all you have to do is configure the jig, align with an edge or a mark on the workpiece, and drill holes. If you don't believe me then there are no other words I can say that will make any difference. I would not be too quick to make judgements about the merits of different joinery techniques unless you have actually tried them.

Art

[Jim Lindsay]

Jim,

How did you arrive at using the 9.7mm drill bit for 3/8" dowels? Did you do a trial and error kind of thing, testing joints to destruction using various bits both smaller and larger than 3/8"? Did you start with one particular company's dowels and design from there, or what?

What is the drill bit size supplied with the 1/4" dowel bushings?

What is the actual inside diameter of your 3/8" and 1/4" bushings? (What are the biggest-diameter bits that can be used?)

Excellent questions Bill, and in fact you almost provided the answers. When the first or second prototype was finished around 1998, I was working with alder, referred to as a hard wood, but in actual fact quite soft with a beautiful grain. Initially I was using a 3/8" drill (.375") and it worked beautifully. I decided to try using white oak (the 1" x 6" to a 2" x 2" referred to in my previous post), however I couldn't get it apart after dry fitting! I then discovered that there were three other drill sizes which, depending on the mean external diameter of the dowels available (3/8" dowels usually approximate .377" in diameter), could be used for compatibility purposes. These are a letter "V" drill (= .377"), a 9.6 mm drill (= .378") and a 9.7 mm drill (= .381"). In my test the 9.7 mm drill seemed compatible with most dowels and in particular the Laurier compressed dowels.

There is approximately a 2 thou clearance between outer periphery of drill and inner periphery of the steel guide.

A 6.5 mm drill appears most compatible with the 1/4 inch dowels.

In my opinion, dowels should be snug and resistance should be felt when inserting same.

Hope this has answered your questions Bill.

[Michael Melo]

Having had an oppurtunnity to use a Domino recently and also being a long time user of the DowelMax product I am quite certain our DowelMax system is considerably faster than the Domino.

We are big fans of Festool and use a lot of their tools daily so no this isn't a shot at Festool we love them!

Our DowelMax system also consists two DowelMax units each set to a specific configuration. A full compliment of drill bits and stop collars each pre set to the appropriate depth for the material and dowel sizes we use. With this setup, a monkey could run the joinery aspects of our day to day business with no setup time ever.

We also have designed a few jigs that increase the versatility of the DowelMax including the following unit which allows us to use the DowelMax much like a biscuit joiner (useful where clamping the unit is not possibe):

The things we would use a Domino for are all things that we currently use our biscuit joiner for (finish carpentry tasks where a 3/4" material centering base is needed.) For these tasks the strength of a bisuit is more then enough.

My son and daughter will get the DowelMax's when I move on and their children after them. Few tools in our shop will last that long...

Our 2 cents.

Michael

[Art Mann]

Wow. That is the first time I have heard from anyone who has actually used both joinery systems and can directly compare them. Just looking at the Domino videos out there, it would seem to me that it would be a little faster.

[Tim Sproul]

Having had an oppurtunnity to use a Domino recently and also being a long time user of the DowelMax product I am quite certain our DowelMAx system is considerable faster then the Domino.


Michael,

In what situation? If you are only considering the cutting of mortises/boring of holes, I might agree with you but the alignment pins on the Domino allow you to forgoe any marking of the mortises. Just mark the front edges of the pieces and the top/bottom and start mortising.

But how about including the whole picture?

Here is an example: A bank of drawers for a base cabinet. You've got 6 drawers so 7 horizontal members and 2 verticals. Cutting the pieces of plywood to size is the same - butt joints reinforced with dowels or dominos.

Now cut the mortises/bore the holes - say 4 or 5 per butt joint. I'll give you the Dowelmax is faster, although I'm not so certain given you're not boring holes only on edges but also in the middle of the faces of the vertical members.

Now assemble. With the Domino, you cut the mortises over-width for all but the front mortise, giving you enough margin-of-error to assemble all 9 pieces in one sitting. I've tried this with dowels...It ain't pretty. It could just be me. But trying to get 50+ dowels all lined up to match their mating holes just right all at the same time is an excersize in near futility. Especially when you're under the gun having a limited open time from your glue. All it takes is one dowel to be a little bit off and your assembly is toast. I'm not saying this assembly with Domino's is a 'snap your fingers' type of deal, but it isn't beyond the realm of most woodworkers.

[Mike Narges]

I have had the Dowelmax for a while now. It is extremely accurate in the placement of the dowel holes in mating pieces. I have done standard M/T, I have done biscuit joinery, I have used Kreg pocket screws. All are great for their purpose. The Dowelmax seems to me to be quick and most like traditional M/T joinery " Zen" notwithstanding. Yes it was pricey, but I feel it is worth the investment.

Sincerly,

Mike Narges

[Christopher Kanda]

Anyone have a dowelmax that they want to part with?

[Charles Green]

No kidding. This guy doesn't lie. He came over to my house and told me about it. :D

Kurt

I'll bring it over for a demo whenever you are ready.

[Michael Melo]

Again it should be mentined that we own two units each configured to their appropriate task along will bits pre set to their appropriate length. We never spend time setting bit depths our swapping configuration of the DowelMax. Though even if we only had one DowelMax and just the bits pre set it would still be faster than the Domino.

The unit I tested was used to build a 17 foot long by 8 ft high custom home theatre unit. I occassionally, when time allows try a different building method to see if it is faster and provides the same level of quality for my customers. We have built custom cabinetry using:

Pocket screws and glue - didn't work for us (not site friendly, too much movement during fastening and finicky with MDF and particle board)
Screw and glue (Fastcap system) - slow and same issues with composite sheet goods, caps can be unsightly
Air nailer and glue - fast but alignment issues require creative clamping and almost acrobatic assembly

The method described with accomodating alignment and the dominoes was used and worked fine. Though with the DowelMax this is not necessary we just don't have alignment issues, ever. The DowelMax allows us to manufacture and bore for dowels in the shop, flat pack to the site and assemble (confident that it will go together like lego.) Other things we like are dowels are inexpensive and readily available. The DowelMax will never break down if a drill goes it is also easily replaceable. All important to a business.

It kind of sounds like we're slagging the Domino. We did like it. It offers dust collection and a 3/4 base offset so as I previously mentioned would be good for use in certain finish carpentry tasks (like say; extension jamb installation.) But then so does a bisuit joiner and for those same tasks biscuits are plenty. I guess I just don't understand all hype around it, is it really a joinery revolution? Hardly.

We're pretty pragmatic about tools though.

Michael

[Bill Bryant]

UPDATE !!!!!

A beautifully-wrapped package has appeared under the tree with my name on it--and it's the perfect size for a Dowelmax to be inside! Under penalty of death or dismemberment (or both) I am not allowed even to touch it before Christmas morning.

My wife is the living definition of cruelty! :p

[frank shic]

we expect a full report, bill, in, errrr... 10 more days? :p

[J. Z. Guest]

Probably like a lot of other Dowelmax customers, I had to deliberate about this for a few months prior to purchase. It is up to $280 + $17 shipping now. (from amazon)

I revived this zombie thread, because it was one of the most helpful. I like how Jim Linday participated in it. It doesn't seem like he has stuck around, but it was good nevertheless.

In another thread, another guy referred to canadianwoodworking forum ("What is stronger - the results") in which one guy ran an independent racking test on a T-joint, which found Dowelmax (w/ five 3/8" dowels) to have the strongest joints:


Biscuit: 250 lbs.
Pocket hole joinery: 420 lbs.
Traditional M&T: 480 lbs.
Double Dominos: 540 lbs.
Leigh FMT: 680 lbs.
Dowelmax (five 3/8" dowels) 890 lbs.


They said that they are all quick to do, except the Leigh FMT, and traditional M&T.

I don't know about you other Dowelmax users, but I am going to use the HELL out of this thing. I have to, to justify the price.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this old thread. I'm looking forward to receiving the Dowelmax and making a nice case for it.

[Bryan Berguson]

Actually, I blame Matt Meiser for bringing the Dowelmax to my attention. It was his thread about his gambling money that got me reading about it and really shed some light on it. I had seen the ads before but really never paid attention to them. Thanks Matt!!!;)

I ordered mine directly from OMS and had a very nice conversation with Mike (Jim's son). True to his word, it was shipped the same day I talked to him and arrived 8 days later. Unfortunately, I was home with the flu and althought exicited about it, I had no interest in using it. That was a week and a half ago and I still haven't been up to doing any woodworking yet. I think today is the day.

I did take the time to unpackage it and made one joint with two boards of different thicknesses just to see how good they would align. They were perfect! I'll admit, it did take me about 3 minutes to do the joint but I think with practice they will get quicker. ;) I've had my Dewalt biscuit jointer for about 10 years and I've never had a joint that aligned that good and that quickly.

Yes, it is more expensive then other doweling jigs but when you get it out of the box, you'll see it's alot more than just another doweling jig. Very well engineered and very well machined. Expensive is the $3.25 a gallon gas to the tune of $250 a month that I put in my truck. For a little more than the cost for 1 months worth of gas, I have a jig I'll use the rest of my life (I'm only 42) and will pass down to my son. It's all in how you do the math!:rolleyes:

The Dowelmax will get well used in my shop too. My shop time is precious (with 2 young children to spend time with) so when I'm there I want to be productive. I have no desire to "dink" around with M&T joints. The Dowelmax will give me the strong, accurate joints I need in much less time.

Bryan

[Heather Thompson]

Seems like a lot of us got twitchy, mine was received at the post office last Tuesday and they claim to have attempted delievery on Wednesday, funny thing is I watched the mail truck do a drive by. :( Went to the main post office next AM and they could not find the package, :mad: went back Friday at 8:01 AM with a full clip, package was in my hands and home by 8:30 AM. :D I will still use M&T, sliding dovetails, ect but now just have another choice.

Heather

[robert micley]

please explain to me how this jig works.also do you use your dowelmax in the middle of horizotal boards -for instance instead of dados for shelves.how would you use your dowelmax to attach cabinet sides to face framesthank you-robert.i have a dowelmax and use a small clamp.anotherthing i love my dowelmax and absolutelt need it even when using poketscrews.i need the wood securely aligned because the wood always tends to shift when using pocket screws.


Having had an oppurtunnity to use a Domino recently and also being a long time user of the DowelMax product I am quite certain our DowelMax system is considerably faster than the Domino.

We are big fans of Festool and use a lot of their tools daily so no this isn't a shot at Festool we love them!

Our DowelMax system also consists two DowelMax units each set to a specific configuration. A full compliment of drill bits and stop collars each pre set to the appropriate depth for the material and dowel sizes we use. With this setup, a monkey could run the joinery aspects of our day to day business with no setup time ever.

We also have designed a few jigs that increase the versatility of the DowelMax including the following unit which allows us to use the DowelMax much like a biscuit joiner (useful where clamping the unit is not possibe):

The things we would use a Domino for are all things that we currently use our biscuit joiner for (finish carpentry tasks where a 3/4" material centering base is needed.) For these tasks the strength of a bisuit is more then enough.

My son and daughter will get the DowelMax's when I move on and their children after them. Few tools in our shop will last that long...

Our 2 cents.

Michael

[J. Z. Guest]

i need the wood securely aligned because the wood always tends to shift when using pocket screws.

If you clamp the pieces properly, they don't shift. You can use the Kreg right angle clamp, either of their face clamps, or even a handscrew clamp clamped behind the "T" so it cannot shift.

[Matt Meiser]

Robert, there is a MS Word document on Dowelmax's site that shows how to use the DM in the middle of a panel as you describe. Basically you need to clamp a guide board across the workpiece, strip the DM down to the bare guide block, and clamp it to the guide board. This is similar to how you use a biscuit jointer or Domino mid panel.

[robert micley]

by using the dowelmax i do not have to clamp at all because a few dowels keep the boards from shifting when i pocketscrew.


If you clamp the pieces properly, they don't shift. You can use the Kreg right angle clamp, either of their face clamps, or even a handscrew clamp clamped behind the "T" so it cannot shift.

[Robert Mayer]

Ill post some pics of my most recent project using the DM after I get home. All I can say is after a year of using it heavily I still love it.

[J. Z. Guest]

Ill post some pics of my most recent project using the DM after I get home. All I can say is after a year of using it heavily I still love it.
I'm glad to hear it Robert. I'm hoping I wind up the same way.

I just got word that mine shipped today, then I got a follow-up email that they had refunded the shipping! I bought it through Amazon, (to help support SMC) and didn't expect a shipping discount. But they honored a free shipping deal they had through their own website! Nice.

[Robert Mayer]

I'm glad to hear it Robert. I'm hoping I wind up the same way.

I just got word that mine shipped today, then I got a follow-up email that they had refunded the shipping! I bought it through Amazon, (to help support SMC) and didn't expect a shipping discount. But they honored a free shipping deal they had through their own website! Nice.

Short of buying a domino its the best $280 you could spend.

A few tips:

- Buy your dowels from Lee Valley, they are much cheaper than dowelmax. I use mostly the longer ones. Buy a lot of them because you will be surprised how many one project can use. I built a huge fish tank recently and used about 250 of them.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32732&cat=1,250,43217

- Buy your replacement 9.7mm drill bits through amazon, they are about 1/3 the price of dowelmax's. I would recommend you buy 4 or so of them and replace them every so often. A dull bit causes you to push harder which makes the jig move ever so slightly. DO NOT use anything but a 9.7mm drill bit or the dowels will either fit way too tight or too loose.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006FIA9W

- Harder woods can be a bit of a bear to drill. You will have to pull the drill bit out 2-3 times per hole and clear the chips off the drill bit. In the dowelmax videos I think they are drilling shorter holes with softer wood. Use a can of saw blade lubricant on the bit occasionally.

- When you do your glue ups inject the glue from a bottle then use a plastic pen to move the glue on the sidewalls. If you dont use too much glue it wont push out around the dowels and get everywhere. One some projects I glue the dowels in one side first.

I cant remember if posting links is cool here or not, if not I can PM them.

[Joe Vincent]

Robert, Great info.
As someone mentioned above, for edge to face joints in the middle of a board, I guess you'd use a straight fence or board clamped across the face board in order to position the Dowelmax for drilling. I guess it's not rocket science and depends on how straight / square the "fence" is clamped, but do you have any tips on setting up for making these types of joints? Thanks

[Robert Mayer]

Robert, Great info.
As someone mentioned above, for edge to face joints in the middle of a board, I guess you'd use a straight fence or board clamped across the face board in order to position the Dowelmax for drilling. I guess it's not rocket science and depends on how straight / square the "fence" is clamped, but do you have any tips on setting up for making these types of joints? Thanks

I have done it two ways. Clamping a board across is the easiest for sure. You can also use a marking knife and made a small mark to line the DM up to.

I have also done some more unusual joinery with it they dont show on their website. Heres the frame I made for the fish tank, it has some angles to it. I used all 2" dowels on it. Theres actually 4 2" dowels per joint.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-2/1246550/DSCN1808.JPG

[J. Z. Guest]

The write-up for the dowels says that they swell with water-based glue. That's regular yellow glue, right? Does that include Titebond III? (which I have a big jug of)

Thinking the other way, would I be OK to use conventional dowels (with the straight ribs) and poly glue, since poly glue doesn't shrink as it cures? Has anyone tried that?

I haven't bought any dowels yet, so now's the time for me to decide. Aside from the difficult clean-up, I really love poly glue. The fact that it expands rather than shrinks and has a little give to it should make it more reliable in the long run.

[Robert Mayer]

The write-up for the dowels says that they swell with water-based glue. That's regular yellow glue, right? Does that include Titebond III? (which I have a big jug of)

Thinking the other way, would I be OK to use conventional dowels (with the straight ribs) and poly glue, since poly glue doesn't shrink as it cures? Has anyone tried that?

I haven't bought any dowels yet, so now's the time for me to decide. Aside from the difficult clean-up, I really love poly glue. The fact that it expands rather than shrinks and has a little give to it should make it more reliable in the long run.

Any yellow glue should be fine. I have titebond 2 & 3, and both of them work just fine.

You could use the regular dowels, but you will have problems with them being extremely tight and probably wont let the glue go around them properly. You would probably end up with all the glue being scraped to the bottom of the hole. You could also take the chance of the joint not closing all the way.

[Joe Vincent]

I thought I read somewhere, perhaps here, that the dowels NOW being sold by the Dowelmax company are no longer of the compressed variety. Not 100% sure if my recollection is correct but if this is right I wonder if they no longer feel there is a benefit to the compressed ones -- or if it's merely a supply or cost issue.

[Robert Mayer]

I thought I read somewhere, perhaps here, that the dowels NOW being sold by the Dowelmax company are no longer of the compressed variety. Not 100% sure if my recollection is correct but if this is right I wonder if they no longer feel there is a benefit to the compressed ones -- or if it's merely a supply or cost issue.

I havent heard they changed them. The only reason I didnt keep buying from them was price.

Stay very far away from woodcrafts fluted dowels, I have bag of them and each one is a slight different size. To say it nicely, they suck.

[J. Z. Guest]

I just sent an email to O.M.S. Tool Co. (Dowelmax) asking for answers to a couple of questions regarding the use of conventional dowels with poly glue vs. expansible dowels with water-based glue.

Also, I asked about whether current dowels sold by O.M.S. are still expansible. I would assume they are, based on Jim's previous comments in this thread.

I also pointed them to this thread. If they don't reply here, I'll post the response here.

[Bryan Berguson]

I just sent an email to O.M.S. Tool Co. (Dowelmax) asking for answers to a couple of questions regarding the use of conventional dowels with poly glue vs. expansible dowels with water-based glue.

Also, I asked about whether current dowels sold by O.M.S. are still expansible. I would assume they are, based on Jim's previous comments in this thread.

I also pointed them to this thread. If they don't reply here, I'll post the response here.


Jeremy,

Your Dowelmax will come with a small bag (50) of dowels. I also ordered 1 bag each of 1.5 and 2 inch dowels. They are the compressed dowels from what I can see. When I talked to Mike at OMS, he told me they have the same dowels as Lee Valley so I'll probably place an order with them sometime soon.

Bryan

[Matt P]

I'm thinking of getting a Dowelmax.. my only problem with it is that the price seems a bit steep! Every business has a right to charge whatever they want for their product, but $300 seems a bit greedy..! They couldn't do just fine by charging $150?

[Bruce Benjamin]

I'm thinking of getting a Dowelmax.. my only problem with it is that the price seems a bit steep! Every business has a right to charge whatever they want for their product, but $300 seems a bit greedy..! They couldn't do just fine by charging $150?

What do you suppose it costs for them to stay in business? How much does it cost to manufacture each one? What is the rent on the building? How much of that $300 is above and beyond the costs?

I don't know much at all about the Dowelmax other than what I've read here and what I've seen on their website. So maybe they're making a killing on these things. Maybe they're just barely getting by. But making a big profit isn't only their right, it's the American Way. I wish I could do it. Good for them if they can make it work. If you think they charge too much then that's up to you. I think festool gets way too much for their gadgets but apparently some people are convinced their stuff is worth it so good for festool, and good for Dowelmax.

Bruce

[Ron Dunn]

Matt, it is a very well made product. Lots of solid metal in aluminium and brass, all very well machined. Not a rough edge in sight. Beautifully finished.

This is a rhetorical question, but do you think a Lie Nielsen plane is worth the considerable price more than a hardware store Stanley? That is the same question for Dowelmax against other dowelling jigs, a few of which I also own, and the answer is definitely YES.

It wasn't cheap, but I expect it to outlast me. There aren't many other tools in my shed about which I could make that claim.

[Robert Mayer]

I'm thinking of getting a Dowelmax.. my only problem with it is that the price seems a bit steep! Every business has a right to charge whatever they want for their product, but $300 seems a bit greedy..! They couldn't do just fine by charging $150?

If you think $300 is too much I challenge you to find one single person who wrote one bad thing about this product.

[Matt Meiser]

Jim Lindsay posted right on this forum that they aren't making money on the business and never have--I can't link to the thread since it was moved, but that was the gist of what he said. One could argue that if they lowered the price they'd sell more but it sounds like their costs are up there. I suppose they could lower their costs by having the thing made in Asia, and as soon as their patent expires or someone comes up with a significant enough improvement to be able to obtain a new patent I'm sure someone else will try that.

[J. Z. Guest]

I'm thinking of getting a Dowelmax.. my only problem with it is that the price seems a bit steep! Every business has a right to charge whatever they want for their product, but $300 seems a bit greedy..! They couldn't do just fine by charging $150?

I believe the company would make money if they could make & sell them for $150 ea. But I don't know the details of their company. I don't believe for a second that they are not making money on them. Why would they be in business otherwise? Out of the goodness of their hearts?

After a good amount of deliberation, I took the plunge and bought it. I think all of us owners deliberated for a while and only bought it after thinking: "$300 for a dowel jig?" But after that pain is done, nearly everyone has been happy with it.

Matt (above) decided he'd prefer a Festool Domino because it seems to work better for him with stocks of different thicknesses.

I think the Dowelmax will last longer, as it is less complex, and anything that wears out can easily be replaced by a machine shop, if it comes to that. On the other hand, if Festool decides to obsolete a $700 joinery tool, good luck getting parts for it in 20 years.

Bruce's point about making money being the American Way isn't valid here, as O.M.S. Tool Co. is a Canadian company, and the founder sounds Scottish to me. Is it the Canadian way too?

[Robert Mayer]

Your paying for the quality of it and the innovation. Once you use it you will realize its a joinery tool, not just a dowel jig. DM deserves $300 for it IMO.


The festool has some advantages over the DM. Its faster and it has great dust collection. The downside of it is that its definitely going to break eventually, and may not be user repairable.

The DM will easily provide 100 years of use assuming you dont drop it or tighten the nuts way too much. If I was running a shop selling my own furniture and needed extra speed I would get the festool. But I build the furniture for myself alone, so spending a bit extra time using the DM is fine with me.

[Tim Marks]

I don't believe for a second that they are not making money on them. Why would they be in business otherwise? Out of the goodness of their hearts?
This is a mom & pop operation. We aren't talking about suits laughing all the way to the bank with your money.

Jim Lindsey stated here that he sunk all of his retirement savings into this company, and so far is struggling to stay afloat. He is staying in the business because otherwise all of that money would just be money down the drain. Hopefully at some point he will start seeing some decent return on his investment, and he can recopue what he has lost.

It is called the American Dream. Think up a great invention, manufacture and market it yourself. I hope he wins. Of course, he lives in British Columbia... which is much more like the U.S then it is like Quebec...

[Heather Thompson]

This is a mom & pop operation. We aren't talking about suits laughing all the way to the bank with your money.

Jim Lindsey stated here that he sunk all of his retirement savings into this company, and so far is struggling to stay afloat. He is staying in the business because otherwise all of that money would just be money down the drain. Hopefully at some point he will start seeing some decent return on his investment, and he can recopue what he has lost.

It is called the American Dream. Think up a great invention, manufacture and market it yourself. I hope he wins. Of course, he lives in British Columbia... which is much more like the U.S then it is like Quebec...

I spoke with Mrs Dowelmax when I ordered mine a few weeks back, you are not entirely correct, this is actually a mom, pop and son operation. Saw a post here where someone just ordered a Dowelmax and got free shipping due to using the advertising on this site, have to admit that I thought about that myself, decided to order direct so more money would go into their pockets ( I am a Contributor here that has covered myself and a few members as well). There are so many threads on this sight that talk about the BORGS putting the little guy out of business, the talk of cost for a well engineered, machined, and might I add well packaged product makes me ill. Dowelmax is a High Quality tool that has earned the right to sit on the same shelf as my Lie Nielson hand planes, saws etc.

Heather :)

[J. Z. Guest]

...The festool has some advantages over the DM. Its faster and it has great dust collection...

I don't think that is necessarily true. (regarding the speed) It's hard to know without owning both, and most folks don't buy them both.

There is a link here somewhere I think (maybe its in another dowelmax thread) to a tool reviewer who compares them. I seem to remember his video review stating that it isn't any faster, but I could be wrong. Maybe it's time for a shoot-out! :D

[Bryan Berguson]

Matt (above) decided he'd prefer a Festool Domino because it seems to work better for him with stocks of different thicknesses.




Did I miss something? Matt bought the Dowelmax. In fact, I blame him for me buying one! :D Did something change?

Bryan

[Bryan Berguson]

I think it should also be noted that the Dowelmax does not *require* dust collection in comparison to the domino. The drilling process creates wood chips, not dust. I can deal with the wood chips.

Bryan

[Bruce Benjamin]

Bruce's point about making money being the American Way isn't valid here, as O.M.S. Tool Co. is a Canadian company, and the founder sounds Scottish to me. Is it the Canadian way too?

They may be a Canadian company but they're doing a lot, (most?) of their business here in the U.S.A. You don't have to be an American to benefit from the idea of, "The American Way". I think it's a completely valid point no matter where you do it. And I'm not trying to make it sound like it's a bad thing. Charge whatever you can get for your product, make a lot of money, live happily ever after. What's more American than that? :cool:

Bruce

[Robert Mayer]

I would actually love to see which one is faster. For me the DM is fast enough, but im not sure its faster than the festool. If you include set up time, it might be close.

[J. Z. Guest]

Did I miss something? Matt bought the Dowelmax. In fact, I blame him for me buying one! :D Did something change?

Yep, you did missing something. He sold it and got a Domino because it was a bit more difficult to set up the Dowelmax to make a joint that is offset different than a standard amount allowed by the Dowelmax spacers.

I don't know which thread it is in, but if you click his name somewhere, then select "See all posts by this user" I'm sure you'll find it. He may also read this and post up about it.

[Matt Meiser]

Did I miss something? Matt bought the Dowelmax. In fact, I blame him for me buying one! :D Did something change?

Yes, I returned the DM and bought a Domino (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=76581) a few weeks ago. There's an explanation in the linked thread.

[Rick Gooden]

Actually, Canadians are Americans, just not U. S. Americans. I do realize that we have a tendency to think of Americans as people from the United States. I guess I'm just nitpicking. Anyway the DM is awesome, I have owned mine for about a year and it's worth every penny, probably more.

[Bryan Berguson]

Yes, I returned the DM and bought a Domino (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=76581) a few weeks ago. There's an explanation in the linked thread.


I guess I did miss that. I was sick with the flu for a week starting the Feb 14th so I missed quite a bit...:(

Well, Matt, it was your thread that opened my eyes about the DowelMax and I bought one. :D I'm very happy with the purchase and have zero intentions of returning it for a domino. So, you can tell people that when you talk, people listen, but not all the time. :)

Bryan

[Bruce Benjamin]

Actually, Canadians are Americans, just not U. S. Americans. I do realize that we have a tendency to think of Americans as people from the United States. I guess I'm just nitpicking. Anyway the DM is awesome, I have owned mine for about a year and it's worth every penny, probably more.

That's one heck of a nitpick. "A tendency"??? Go anywhere in the world and make reference to an, "American" and I'll bet you don't get a single person anywhere that thinks an, "American" might mean from Canada...Well, except for some Canadians that might nitpick a little too much.:rolleyes:;)

And, I'm glad you like your Dowelmax no matter where it's made. When I can afford one I'll seriously consider buying on. It looks impressive.

Bruce

[Matt P]

Yes, I see the point - the Dowelmax seems worth the price. I don't have any problems with laissez-faire capitalism. Not that OMS is a case of this, but I believe that the motive to purely make as much money as the market will allow can sometimes have deleterious consequences for society and individuals - e.g. Enron, this Subprime mess.

[Mike Henderson]

Actually, Canadians are Americans, just not U. S. Americans. I do realize that we have a tendency to think of Americans as people from the United States. I guess I'm just nitpicking. Anyway the DM is awesome, I have owned mine for about a year and it's worth every penny, probably more.
There's a reason people from the US are called Americans.

People from Canada are called Canadians.

People from Mexico are called Mexicans.

People from the United States of America are called Americans.

It has nothing to do with being from the continent of North or South America and everything to do with being a citizen of the United States of America. It wouldn't work to call us "United Statesans".

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Not meaning to knock DowelMax, but one place that dowels do not seem to work well is to attach the seat rails to the back stile on a chair. I do some restoration and every chair I get that's attached with dowels is loose or worse. I think the reason is that the grain of the dowel is perpendicular to the grain of the back stile. That means that part of the dowel is facing end grain which doesn't provide any strength. So there's just not enough face grain to face grain contact to provide the needed strength. And most of the chairs only have two dowels on that joint.

To my mind, that's one place where a regular mortise and tenon or a loose tenon is called for.

Mike

[Phil Thien]

Not meaning to knock DowelMax, but one place that dowels do not seem to work well is to attach the seat rails to the back stile on a chair. I do some restoration and every chair I get that's attached with dowels is loose or worse. I think the reason is that the grain of the dowel is perpendicular to the grain of the back stile. That means that part of the dowel is facing end grain which doesn't provide any strength. So there's just not enough face grain to face grain contact to provide the needed strength. And most of the chairs only have two dowels on that joint.

To my mind, that's one place where a regular mortise and tenon or a loose tenon is called for.

Mike

But if it is restoration work, wouldn't be possible that the glue was to blame? Many older chairs used hide glue, which doesn't harden as much as PVA glue I think? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. What is your fix for this type of problem?

[Mike Henderson]

But if it is restoration work, wouldn't be possible that the glue was to blame? Many older chairs used hide glue, which doesn't harden as much as PVA glue I think? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. What is your fix for this type of problem?
It could be - sometimes it's hard to tell what the root cause is. The back joint on a chair gets terrible stress, especially if there's no stretchers on the legs. It just seems reasonable that the small amount of face grain to face grain in that joint is a problem, no matter what the glue - especially compared to a regular mortise and tenon, which has a lot more face grain to face grain surface.

When I get a chair that's loose - that is, if you grab the back of the chair and push and pull, you see movement at that back seat joint - I first try to remove the seat rail by using a clamp in reverse - pushing the legs apart. Often that will not work - actually, I'm afraid to put too much pressure because I might break something.

If I can't separate the joint, I push down on the seat - holding the back - so that I get as much separation between the seat rail and the back stile. Then I use a very thin saw - I usually use a small flush cut saw - and I cut the dowels.

To repair the seat, I then drill out the dowels and cut a square mortise where the dowel was - often I use a mortise of 1/2" by 1/2". I do this in both pieces and do two loose tenons where the dowels were. I then glue with slow epoxy glue.

These chairs are not 18th Centruy stuff - they're factory made 19th and early 20th Century stuff (that's why they have dowels) so they have little historical value - but they have value to the customer.

If those joints ever came loose, I'd cut them the same way to separate them, and re-do the mortise, maybe making the mortise wider up-and-down to get even more face grain to face grain surface.

Mike

[I just want to add that often when I get a chair, it's not what I'd call virgin. Often, someone has tried to repair one or more of the joints, using who knows what glue. I've also gotten chairs that some butcher tried to repair earlier - won't go into details but often the repair is one that will last about just long enough to collect the fee for "fixing" it. It's just amazing what you see sometime when you open up a joint.]
[To be fair, I don't see the well made repairs because they hold. If I see it and it's been repaired before, it's usually because the previous person did not do a good job. I hope no one ever sees my repairs.]
[Just one more comment. The problem with multiple repairs is that you wind up with a lot of wood taken away, which can leave a weak stile. I haven't had one break yet, but some, I know, are at the limit of repair - you couldn't take any more wood away.]

[Matt Meiser]

Well, this (http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/158164/DowelMax-Kit-with-38quot-Drill-Guides) should certainly help their sales in the US. And I just saw it announced on the Festool Owners Group forum of all places.

Edit: Or one would think. McFeelys charges $20 for shipping??? That's excessive IMHO since its more than OMS charges to ship it from another Canada. Apparently they charge shipping by cost, not weight. So a 5lb box of mixed screws ships for $7 but a <5lb DM ships for $20. At least you get it in 4 days or less though which is a big plus.

[Ron Pegram]

Well, this (http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/158164/DowelMax-Kit-with-38quot-Drill-Guides) should certainly help their sales in the US. And I just saw it announced on the Festool Owners Group forum of all places.

Edit: Or one would think. McFeelys charges $20 for shipping??? That's excessive IMHO since its more than OMS charges to ship it from another Canada. Apparently they charge shipping by cost, not weight. So a 5lb box of mixed screws ships for $7 but a <5lb DM ships for $20. At least you get it in 4 days or less though which is a big plus.

Hey Matt,

S&H is tough for everyone but I'd also like to add that we use UPS which is traceable and fully insured and the DowelMax folks use the USPS which is slower and not traceable. Also, consider the fact that we don't have quite the margin on this that the fine folks at OMS have. :)

I think having it here and available for shipping via UPS within a few days is a pretty good deal but I am sensitive to the cost of shipping. I'll do some digging around to see if there's some promotion we can do to make this more palatable.

[Bryan Berguson]

Hey Matt,

Also, consider the fact that we don't have quite the margin on this that the fine folks at OMS have. :)


Ron,

I'm a huge fan of McFeeleys and have been a customer for over 10 years but... Please don't make assumptions about another companies margins. Not fair to them at all. I recently purchased a Dowelmax and I doubt very much their margins are all that high. It is that nice. ;) Get McFeeleys to put them in the catalog and sell a few thousand of them so the price may come down... :)

Bryan

[Phil Thien]

Ron,

I'm a huge fan of McFeeleys and have been a customer for over 10 years but... Please don't make assumptions about another companies margins. Not fair to them at all. I recently purchased a Dowelmax and I doubt very much their margins are all that high. It is that nice. ;) Get McFeeleys to put them in the catalog and sell a few thousand of them so the price may come down... :)

Bryan

Well, if Ron buys them from OMS, and then sells them at approx. the same price, he is guaranteed to have lower margins than OMS.

[J. Z. Guest]

Today, I cross cut a plywood panel which had solid wood trim on it that I had attached with Dowelmax.

By chance, I cut right through the middle of a dowel.

Attached are pix of my best & worst ones.

Note that even the worse one is a nice fit as far as face grain to face grain gluing area. I think it was a different brand of dowel, because the holes are the same.

Another poster mentioned that he didn't like the fluted dowels; that he prefers the spiral cut dowels. From what I see here, the glue is still grabbing in the flutes easily, since the flutes aren't that deep, and the flutes ensure even glue distribution when you push the dowel down into a puddle of glue in the hole.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Jeremy, regardless of what kind or brand of dowels you used, those sure are some clean, tight, and even joints. Very impressive.

Bruce

[Art Mulder]

Attached are pix of my best & worst ones.

Cool photos Jeremy. But I think you could argue that it is the worst and best, rather than the best and worst. That is, the first, with some gap at the end to give the glue a bit of space, might actually be the better of the two.

[Brian Penning]

If I can't separate the joint, I push down on the seat - holding the back - so that I get as much separation between the seat rail and the back stile. Then I use a very thin saw - I usually use a small flush cut saw - and I cut the dowels.



Mike

[]

Man, that is a great tip!! I've been repairing chairs for a while and that tip is a keeper. I'll be using that dead blow hammer a lot less now and cutting down on the collateral damage.
Thanks Mike

[J. Z. Guest]

hat is, the first, with some gap at the end to give the glue a bit of space, might actually be the better of the two.

I think if it were poly glue, that might be the case. But yellow glues shrink as they set, so extra space doesn't buy me anything.

With these fluted dowels, as I press the dowel into the hole, the excess glue wicks up the flutes of the dowel and just spills onto the butt part of the joint.

[Robert Mayer]

I think if it were poly glue, that might be the case. But yellow glues shrink as they set, so extra space doesn't buy me anything.

With these fluted dowels, as I press the dowel into the hole, the excess glue wicks up the flutes of the dowel and just spills onto the butt part of the joint.

For many of my glue ups I start gluing the dowels in one side first, then cleaning up the glue after it squeezes out, waiting for it to cure, then doing the whole glue up. It really cut down on the squeeze out and makes it easier overall.

[Ron Pegram]

Ron,

I'm a huge fan of McFeeleys and have been a customer for over 10 years but... Please don't make assumptions about another companies margins. Not fair to them at all. I recently purchased a Dowelmax and I doubt very much their margins are all that high. It is that nice. ;) Get McFeeleys to put them in the catalog and sell a few thousand of them so the price may come down... :)

Bryan

I meant no disrespect to the folks at Dowelmax at all. Quite frankly, I'm a huge fan of those guys.

And yes, the Dowelmax will make its catalog debut in May. I'm hoping we can do a LOT to expand the marketplace for this deserving item.

[Ron Pegram]

Well, if Ron buys them from OMS, and then sells them at approx. the same price, he is guaranteed to have lower margins than OMS.

That was my point but I worded it badly, Phil.

In any case, you can't go wrong with either of us. I'm hoping we help the folks at OMS make 1,000,000 of these items. I'm shocked but happy no one else has taken a chance on it. Together, I think we can do wonderful things!

[Chris Padilla]

...if Festool decides to obsolete a $700 joinery tool, good luck getting parts for it in 20 years.

I believe I heard that Festool still has parts and support for their products going back 40-50 years. Considering how well built their stuff is, I am not surprised by hearing this.

Just had to counterpoint that partial statement.... :)

[Ron Pegram]

I believe I heard that Festool still has parts and support for their products going back 40-50 years. Considering how well built their stuff is, I am not surprised by hearing this.

Just had to counterpoint that partial statement.... :)

I believe Shane Holland made that exact point in a thread on the Festool Owners' Group. Apparently, Festool maintains replacement parts for decades-old tools.