waterlox question

[Anne Gray]

First. thanks so much for the help I have gotten here.

I'm using waterlox to finish the outsides of mahogany kitchen cabinets. I have had great results with the original/sealer, but I'm not thrilled with the test pieces I have done with the satin on top of that. I'd really like a "semi-gloss" look, but waterlox has satin or high gloss, nothing in between.

So.......should I/can I:

1- mix the satin and gloss?
2- do one coat of each?

thanks!

Anne

[Alex Yeilding]

Try the sealer/finish. It is between the gloss and satin. Don't be put off by its name; while thinner than gloss (and presumably than satin) and thus recommended for sealer coat, it will build if that is the look you want. If it is still too glossy, I'd suggest rubbing with grey abrasive pad lubed with wax or oil.

[Anne Gray]

I like the finished texture/hardness of the satin, so I dont want to leave the wood with just the sealer/finish on it- I'd like that final 2 coats of something over the sealer/finish.

[Bob Childress]

I like the finished texture/hardness of the satin, so I dont want to leave the wood with just the sealer/finish on it- I'd like that final 2 coats of something over the sealer/finish.

Anne,

I admit it is easy to get confused about fnishes. The WaterLox Original Sealer-Finish dries to the same hardness as the satin or gloss, but has a semi-gloss appearance. There is no other difference between the three finishes except final appearance, they are all wiping varnishes and will dry hard. I have just finished a jewelry chest with 5 coats of the original sealer/finish and it is quite durable. :)

[Anne Gray]

Anne,

I admit it is easy to get confused about fnishes. The WaterLox Original Sealer-Finish dries to the same hardness as the satin or gloss, but has a semi-gloss appearance. There is no other difference between the three finishes except final appearance, they are all wiping varnishes and will dry hard. I have just finished a jewelry chest with 5 coats of the original sealer/finish and it is quite durable. :)

really??? The wood REALLY does seem different in hardness and smoothness between where I applied 2 coats sealer/finish and one coat of satin compared to where I applied 4 coats of the sealer finish alone.......

Steve suggested 4-6 coats of sealer finish, then 2 coats of satin or gloss depending on the desired look.

Another poster here- Howard- said that I'd end up with a harder more durable finish if I used fewer coats of sealer/finish, and did more coats of gloss or satin on top of that.

I know that there will not be full consensus on the "best" way to go, but this is a LOT of divergence in opinions! :)

[Greg Cole]

Anne,
Steve & Howard are going to give the best advice ya can ask for (considering the price paid for it....;)).
They are the resident guru's for good reason.
I've found for most top coats-finishes, you can always buff down the "shine" but it's awful hard to go the other way with them.

Cheers & Good Luck.

Greg

[Steve Schoene]

If you like the sheen of the Original/Sealer then there is no reason not to stay with that. Most kitchen cabinets these days are low sheen, but there is no reason yours has to be. You will be giving up nothing in terms of durability.

[Anne Gray]

If you like the sheen of the Original/Sealer then there is no reason not to stay with that. Most kitchen cabinets these days are low sheen, but there is no reason yours has to be. You will be giving up nothing in terms of durability.

OK, sorry to be so dense, but I thought (based on a couple posts here, and the guys at the woodworking store) that the sealer/finish was intended to be *under* either the satin or gloss finish. The only difference between the three is appearance? That would makes things much simpler....... :)

[Alex Yeilding]

The only difference between the three is appearance?
Well, no, I think that would be overstating it a bit. The sealer/finish has a lower solids content than gloss (and about the same as satin) and more tung oil. That is why I like to use gloss as the final coat, to get a harder finish to rub to desired sheen. But if you are looking for a flatter finish without rubbing, I still think the sealer/finish fills the bill. The finish may not "look" quite as hard to an approaching piece of pumice, but will be just as hard, for all practical purposes, to the vase you put on the table top.

From the Waterlox web site: "Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish is a clear, medium gloss sealer and finish coat (two products in one),"

But back to your original question, I see no problem with mixing the gloss and satin. Make sure your satin is well stirred before you do. I assume it has flatting agents, and if you have to mix another batch, you want to get the same amount of flattening agent in the second batch.

[Tim Sproul]

If you want semi-gloss from satin:

Let the satin finish settle for a day or few. Without shaking the can or stirring the finish, open the can and pour most of the contents into a new container. Most of the 'satin' part of the finish will be at the bottom of the can. Add some of this to the new container, but not all of it. You'll have a glossier version of the Waterlox and you won't have to worry about if the Waterlox sealer is different than the Waterlox satin.

[Anne Gray]

wow- lots of great ideas. I think I'll pick up a can of the "gloss" and try it on a bit of scrap, and see if rubbing it down gives a "semi" gloss shine. If it is too shiney, it'll be $17 wasted, an I'll try Tim's idea.

I really think I'll love whatever the outcome is, it is just that I'm trying to make my extremely amature finishing skills worthy of my dad's cabinets, and it is scary. :)

[Steve Schoene]

There is no tung oil in the Waterlox Satin, Original/Sealer, or Gloss; they are not oil/varnish mixes, they are strictly varnishes. The varnish uses tung oil as an ingredient but once the chemical reaction has been completed the oil has been reacted with resin to create a new compound -- varnish--which is not a mixture of oil and resin. Thinner is added to bring the varnish to wiping consistency.

Low solids content means more thinner, not more oil--besides oil would count as a solid in the measurement. There may be some small differences in the varnish used to make the three varieties, but it's not something obvious. The reason to use Gloss for rubbing out isn't that it is harder, but that having less thinner it goes on in thicker coats. It's easier to avoid rubbing through thicker coats.

[Alex Yeilding]

There is no tung oil in the Waterlox Satin, Original/Sealer, or Gloss; they are not oil/varnish mixes, they are strictly varnishes. The varnish uses tung oil as an ingredient but once the chemical reaction has been completed the oil has been reacted with resin to create a new compound -- varnish--which is not a mixture of oil and resin.
Understood, but I thought that the ratio of oil to resin changed the nature of the varnish, e.g. "long oil" and "short oil" varnishes. But I don't understand the chemistry; just have heard the terms.

In any case, I looked online, and read the labels for my cans of sealer/finish and high gloss, and can't figure out where I got the impression that sealer finish has more tung oil. The only difference I see is that it has some linseed oil, which is not listed for the gloss finish. I wonder if that is what makes it have lower sheen. It comes in a non-stirrable can like the gloss, so presumably it doesn't have flatteners that could settle like the satin does.

[Mike Dauphinee]

Anne, here is something to consider. A satin finish has light deadeners added to make it appear satin. So you would be building muddy all the way down. You really want to build with clear finish and then add the last coat as near to what your final finish is wanted. That way the grain shows the best and the top layer looks like you want. JME

Personally, I use clear all the way and after curing I use 0000 SW and some wax if gloss is not wanted.

[Anne Gray]

Thanks, Mike- I was concerned about that. Actually, as I continue to work on them, I think that the look achieved with just the sealer/finish is very nice. I did a little gentle "wet sanding" with 0000 SW and then buffing after about the 6th coat, and it looks and feels good. The can of satin may go unused this time.

[david babcock]

i love this website.
my wife now hates it.

[Rob Amadon]

i love this website.
my wife now hates it.

Ha, ha!

Wait till she sees you spending 3 hours a night on the FWW site! Don't tell her I had anything to do with it. :)

Rob

[david babcock]

Ha, ha!

Wait till she sees you spending 3 hours a night on the FWW site! Don't tell her I had anything to do with it. :)

Rob

Rob, I was doing root canals today on only 4 hours of sleep thanks to your FWW recommendation! :cool:
(still a little confused about a finishing regimen)