Help: Securing 2x6 to concrete

[daniel lane]

The subject says it all.

I've read several threads regarding this (e.g. John Hain's 25 July post, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=62338), and I'd like to ask for a little more detailed help.

Basically, I've got the .22 Ramset and it won't sink 2.5" nails through 2x6s into the concrete in my basement using the yellow #4 charges. I went to buy the level 5 charges, and it turns out they don't make those in .22, only in the larger calibers. So I groaned and bought some Tapcons and the drill bits to use them. Turns out they don't work, either. I must have drilled for 5 minutes and made no more than a 1/4" deep hole in the floor. There is no way that I'm going to do that for all of the fasteners I need.

Has anyone run into this problem? My basement is 35+ years old, and while it passes the Ramset test (basically, "set the fastener on the surface and hit it normally with a hammer, if it makes a dent then the fastener will drive into the surface"), yet with the #4 charges I only get about 1/4" (if that) into the slab.

I really don't want to pay the $200 to upgrade to the .27 caliber system (which supports the #5 charges), and unless Tapcon sells the world's crappiest drill bit, I'm not sure that switching bits or drills will make a huge difference. No, I don't have a hammer drill, but does it make THAT much of a difference? I'm looking to drive ~150 fasteners, I don't want to spend 5 minutes on each.

HELP!! Anyone got some advice?

(Also: If anyone in the St. Louis area has a .27 Ramset system, I'll gladly pay to rent it, especially if I can test it first and it works!!)



daniel

[Paul Girouard]

Go rent a rotohammer that takes a SDS type bit.

http://www.kkind.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/SDSmax.gif


Also get some Rawl split drive anchor pins.

http://www.concretefasteners.com/headers/split-drive.gif

Warning IF your using ACQ PT lumber for your plates the fasteners should be ZMAX (a "special" galv. process) One pin about every 4' and always within 12" of the end of your plate stock.

If it will be dry, always , and you don't have a code / inspection to pass you should be Ok with just steel drive pins.

Good luck.

Of course get the right size bit for the drive pin you find , about 1/4" dia. pin and bit should be fine for interior wall partions.

[Rob Will]

Throw that pistol away and buy a SDS drive hammer drill. Use 3/8" x 5" wedge anchors.

Rob

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Daniel,

Roto-hammer or hammer-drill is the tool for the job. Rent one locally for this small job. I'm a pretty good sized lad and I've done some pretty physical labor. I once tried to use a star drill to cut a "trough" in my basement floor to move a shower drain for a new shower I was building. 4 hours later with chisels, star drill and sledge hammers of various weights, I had 1 1" hole. I rented a roto-hammer or hammer/drill and in 20 minutes I had the trough to move the drain 18".....

P.S. Hammer drills are excellent for driving ground rods for electrical entries into the ground too! Put a socket on it just slightly larger than the diameter of the ground rod. Stand the ground rod where you want it (out side of course) Put the socket over the end of the ground rod, a drill it in....in less than a minute in my cases....I had to put 2 in to meet code on my shop eletrical entry.

Good luck!

[Jim Kountz]

Hmm this is strange, what you are doing is a fairly common practice and one that can usually be accomplished using a ramset. I have done this countless times on many of my jobs and never had it not work honestly. Oh you do get the occasional stubborn nail that wont set but its the exception. Is your ramset new? I have done this with the 3" fasteners with much success.

[Scott Seigmund]

Daniel,

Rent (or buy) a Hilti hammer drill (best fastening systems by far), and get some Kwik-Con II anchors in 1/4 or 3/16 with the matched tolerance driver/bit. You can recess the head of the anchor and use washers to prevent splitting the wood. If you need to remove the 2x6 in the future, just back the anchors out. These anchors cause minimal damage to the concrete, unlike powder driven nails, and have much greater pullout strength.

http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/modules/prcat/prca_navigation.jsp?OID=-14459

--Scott

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

No, I don't have a hammer drill, but does it make THAT much of a difference?
Absolutely a hammer drill makes a huge difference.
A 5 to 7 amp one will suffice for Tapcons. <$100. (HF has one on sale right now for $29.00)
For anything beefier - like 3/8" fasteners, you want 8 amps or more.>$100.
(My Firestorm 6.0 amp bogged down on the 3/8" holes I drilled when they got beyond 2 1/2" deep - I had to back it out and blow out the dust to continue).

If you go with Tapcons, you'll want to drill pilot holes in the wood first with a regular twist drill. The masonry bit in the hammer drill takes forever to bore through the wood. I picked up two 10 packs of the HF 1/8" bits for $.99 on sale. For ~ 150 holes, you'll probably go through ~ 20 bits. It's nearly impossible to keep the twist bit from hitting the concrete when it breaks through. A couple of "hits" will dull the point in short order. Expensive bits, in this case are a waste of good money, since they dull just as quick.

I had to run about 50 Tapcons through some treated 2x4's and into cement block a few months ago. I ran 3 drills. One had the 1/8" twist bit, the hammer drill had the Tapcon bit, and the third had a screwdriver bit.
It was drill - hammer drill - screw, then on to the next hole. Once I got into a rhythm, it was maybe, 20 min(?) to run them all. (I didn't keep a real close watch on the time)

[Richard Wolf]

You can put a new charge into the gun and shoot the nail again as long as the orange feathers are still in tack. I know this is a common practice in the trades and have done it myself with excellent results.

Richard

[Jeff Miller]

Get a good concrete bit and use these.

http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=52032


We've done this before we had a hammer drill.

Have at it:D




JEFF:cool:

[Rod Sheridan]

One word............Hilti....

[Randy Cohen]

I've done what Jeff suggested. Was way easier than it looks. this is how the breaker box is held onto the poured concrete wall in my basement...and has been for 8+ years.

[David G Baker]

I have never used a Ram-set, I have always used the carbide tipped concrete drills and had great success 99% of the time. You can rent the equipment you need but if you need the equipment very often it is much cheaper to buy it. I use the Milwaukee hammer drill and a good grade drill bit. Some of my concrete was poured in the early 40's and is very hard but the drill goes through it like butter. Like someone suggested, pre-drill your wood and make sure the hole you drill in the concrete is deep enough and cleared of any debris. I use the Fastenal type fastener.

[Jason Roehl]

1. Absolutely no comparison between a hammer drill and a standard electric drill. The more you spend on a hammer drill, the better they get, too. I used a $69 Sears hammer drill for a few dozen holes before part of the mechanism self-destructed. I now have a Milwaukee hammer drill that I paid $130 for, reconditioned. I've let probably half the smoke out of the motor, but it still is 10 times the drill the Sears was. Drills holes in concrete 4-5 times faster, too. The high-dollar spline-drive hammer drills go through seasoned concrete like a hot knife through butter.

2. I hope your lumber is treated. Non-treated lumber has no business being in contact with concrete.

3. Tapcons aren't that great. They break and strip pretty easily. Wedge-type fasteners are much better, whatever the style (bold and wedge as one assembly, or screw and molly).

4. Powder-actuated fasteners don't do well on seasoned concrete, it's too brittle. They do better on green concrete that has not reached its final strength.

[Prashun Patel]

Here's a second (tenth) vote for using a hammer drill. The hammer drill provides thousands of impacts per sec in addition to the rotational force. Those impacts are what make the bit go through the 'crete. You gotta use a hammer drill bit for it though.

Also, if you use tapcons, use air to blow the dust out of the hole 1st. Unlike wood dust, it won't compress and though the hole may be plenty deep, the dust will prevent the tapcon from achieving the right depth.

You can use a rotohammer or an sdsmax, but IMHO the max is more for light chipping and the r-hammer is too heavy to be used efficiently for setting a lot of bolts.

I wouldn't buy one. Rent from BORG or similar.

[Link Bowers]

Get one of the 1" SDS cheap hammer drills from Harbor Freight (cheaper than renting plus can be used for regular drilling and mixingpaint/mortar later). If you were going to do this everyday for a living I would sugest a better hammer drill but for a homeowner it will be just fine. A regular drill with a masonary bit would never be able to do the job. The difference between the two types of drill is like night and day. It took me an hour once to to a small hole with a regular drill and then went and got the cheap HF and came back and did 100 of the same hole in less than an hour.

[Eric Gustafson]

Get one of the 1" SDS cheap hammer drills from Harbor Freight (cheaper than renting plus can be used for regular drilling and mixingpaint/mortar later).

I second the vote for the SDS hammer drill at HF. Use it twice and it pays for itself. I personally like the full-sleeved redhead anchor bolts at HD.

http://images.doityourself.com/stry/5441.jpg

You can drill right through the 2x6 as it sits on the floor. Blow out the dust, insert the bolt, crank 'er down, and you are good to go.

[Denise Ohio]

For our toe-ups (parallel treated 2x4 on a 24" foundation wall for a loadbearing strawbale house), I had to install almost 300 anchors and used a rotohammer with SDS drill bit at exactly the size the of a Simpson Titen bolt.

I rented the rotohammer (should have bought one) and bought the bit. The Titen bolt goes in like a lag bolt, so while you have to pre-drill through wood and concrete, it just goes right in without epoxy.

Titens aren't cheap, but they do that we needed them to do. I drilled all the holes first, then the Titens. Be sure to bloe the hole out with a compressor---be sure to wear goggles and respirator because concrete dust will hurt ya.

Good luck.

[Ray Knight]

I second the Harbor Freight. A few years ago we burnt up a smaller older american commercial hammer drill, drilling several fairly large holes to mount a car lift, an hour getting only an inch or two in.. It was saturday, help was there, Harbor Freight was 2 miles away, $79 including a set of drills, 20 minutes later it was all done. I use it about 6 times a year, still works fine, plenty of power, bits holding up. For performance for dollar spent, for occasional use, you can't beat it. Ray Knight

[Tom Maple]

I'll add to the comments by Paul and Rob and Jason - a hammer drill is the way to go. Don't get a drill with a normal chuck and a hammer feature. They are better than a regular drill but a far cry from an SDS type drill. The SDS chuck doesn't loosen with vibration and the bits are designed for percussion use. Many straight shank carbide tipped masonry bits are only for non-percussive use and will fail when used in a drill with a hammer feature.
In our work we drill thousands of holes in concrete and stone each summer. We have used different drills and find the Bosch SDS drills offer the best combination of ease of use and price. They also don't transmit as much vibration to your hands, a real plus when drilling a few hundred holes in a day. And they are fast!

[daniel lane]

Folks,

Thank you so much for your replies. I'm honestly ecstatic at the number of responses over a few days. I wound up making an unscheduled business trip and haven't had time to check the site (this has been happening WAY too much lately, but getting better) and lo and behold, I return after 2 days and I have a second page of responses! Thank you, truly, that's why I'm a contributor.

Based on the responses, my plan is to find a place to rent, rather than buy something right away, but once I wind up fastening 2x6s (yes, they are all treated, PT on the floor, non-PT for the studs) I'll find new words to express my happiness and thank you all again.

Sounds like the hammer drill *is* that important. (And my old B&D is apparently a useless piece of...um...stuff. [That's the thing that drilled for 5 minutes and achieved a 1/4" depth.])



daniel

[Matt Meiser]

I got a Ryobi 1/2" hammer drill for about $60 a couple months back. I've used it with tapcons to mount some shelving to the basement wall and attach the slop sink in the garage to the floor and it was amazingly easier than using a regular drill. Unless you are going to use it a lot, I'd at least give an inexpensive drill a try. One nice thing for me about the Ryobi or the other non-SDS drills is that you can use them as a regular 1/2" drill--something else I rarely need to do, but when I need it I need it. At least on the SDS drill my brother rented, I don't think you could have used it as a regular drill.

[Rob Russell]

I bought a Hitachi rotary hammer from Home Depot's recon table. It looked like someone used it once and returned it. It takes the carbide tipped, SDS splined bits. I've been drilling 3/4" holes and (depending on the application) using lead inserts with lag bolts or the redhead wedge bolts. Even drilling a 3/4" hole, the descriptions of a rotary hammer and how quickly it goes into concrete are tryue. I can drill a 3/4" x 5" deep hole in 15-20 seconds, probably faster if I really pushed the drill.

It's one of those tools a use once a year but - when I use it - I think to myself that there is no other way I'd want to be doing this.

It's off topic, but the little horizontal metal cutting bandsaw (the $200 cheapie imports) fall into the same category.

Rob

[daniel lane]

Okay, I admit it, I'm a bit of a tool snob. I've purchased and used Harbor Freight stuff in the past, and felt like pretty much all of it was crap. That said, I think I finally see the light on "hey, it's cheap, and as long as it lasts for this one job, it's worth it". I will also add the caveat that I've not bought a LOT of HF stuff, so there could well be some decent stuff out there that I haven't seen/used.

Based on suggestions, I looked at HF for a drill for my shop walls/floor. They have three SDS hammer drills that I can see. The first (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41983) is ~$40, as is the second (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=2957), and the third (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47606) is ~$100. I can't see a major differences between the three, although there are several immediately obvious minor differences.

A quick search locally shows I'd be paying ~$40-$50/day to rent one, so I'm already ahead buying any of these. Anyone have a suggestion for which one to use? Should I look elsewhere for a better one?

I hate to spend money on yet another tool (seriously, did I just say that?), especially one for which I will have only one real job, but I'd rather get my shop done than work for 4 hours to achieve a 1/4" deep hole and 4-5 nails sticking 1/2" out of the bottom plates. :rolleyes:


TIA,

daniel

[Fred Voorhees]

Daniel,

Roto-hammer or hammer-drill is the tool for the job. Rent one locally for this small job. I'm a pretty good sized lad and I've done some pretty physical labor. I once tried to use a star drill to cut a "trough" in my basement floor to move a shower drain for a new shower I was building. 4 hours later with chisels, star drill and sledge hammers of various weights, I had 1 1" hole. I rented a roto-hammer or hammer/drill and in 20 minutes I had the trough to move the drain 18".....

P.S. Hammer drills are excellent for driving ground rods for electrical entries into the ground too! Put a socket on it just slightly larger than the diameter of the ground rod. Stand the ground rod where you want it (out side of course) Put the socket over the end of the ground rod, a drill it in....in less than a minute in my cases....I had to put 2 in to meet code on my shop eletrical entry.

Good luck!


Yeah, that's the first thing that I thought of. Were you using a hammer drill? If not, that is your answer.