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Greg Cuetara
11-25-2007, 12:12 PM
So I was into BJ's the other day and they had a deal for 6 - 60 watt equivalent energy saver bulbs for $2.50. I figured that I couldn't even buy regular bulbs for that so I bought a few packs and have them installed in most of the lights in the house right now. They are much brighter than a regular bulb and are supposed to save electricity. I am on a kick right now to make my house more efficient. For those of you that are curious it only has to do with economics....If the payback on a bulb is less than a year then it is worth it for me to upgrade and pay less in the long run but anyways...

Onto my question. The package says that the bulbs draw 13 watts and that they are a 60 watt equivalent. Can I put this type of bulb into a 40 watt lamp...It is only supposed to be drawing 13 watts which is less than 40 watts so it should be ok...right? The LOML is looking for a brighter lamp in the nursery and but most of them only come with 40 watt setups so I was hoping to put one of these into the lamp to get more light...

Thanks for any insight y'al can give me.
Greg

Joe Pelonio
11-25-2007, 12:21 PM
We just went through that trying to get brighter light at less energy cost. If the wattage rating of the bulbs (13) is below the maximum of the lamp then you are fine, the output equivalent is not significant, in fact they burn cooler
than traditional bulbs anyway.

Jim O'Dell
11-25-2007, 12:42 PM
I bought 2 4-packs from HD when they were selling for 3.98 per pack. If I had thought about it, I would have gotten the 100 watt equivalent ones, but got the 60. They seem ok.
Anyone seen a good price on the flood lights version? I could use some outside, but the ones I saw were almost 8.00 each! :eek: And they didn't say if they were usuable outside or not. Jim.

Mike Cutler
11-25-2007, 12:49 PM
We've been installing them all over the house also. They're nice. I like the fact they run cooler. We have a number of lamps with stained glass shades, and anything to reduce the heat is a benefit.
the WalMart and HD near me seem to always have a sale on them. Buy 'em in quanity and there really cheap.

The one's outside seem to light up a little slower in really cold weather. I have one on the back entrance,and I know it works at 0-5 degrees Farenheit outside.
Haven't see flood light versions as of yet. I'll have to look for them.

Randy Cohen
11-25-2007, 2:47 PM
can they be used with dimmer switches?

David G Baker
11-25-2007, 3:00 PM
Randy,
They can not be used on a dimmer switch but the dimmer switch can easily be replaced with a standard switch.
I bought the 100 watt equivalent daylight bulbs from Menard's and love the brilliant white color they produce. It takes some folks a while to adjust to the light color.
I also use the 100 watt bulbs as a light source for taking photos for Ebay auctions.

Jim Becker
11-25-2007, 3:10 PM
I've been using CF bulbs for some time now and there was a definite impact on our electric bill, even with certain little girls not being very good at turning off lights. I have them in every fixture that takes a regular light bulb except the three over the dining table and two above the mantle as those are on dimmers. Even my outside flood lights are fluorescent. (Mike's correct that they have a heating time that means you don't get bright instantly, but I can live with that) In the addition, all fixtures that are not going to be dimmed will have CF bulbs. Those that are going to be on dimmers are LV halogen.

glenn bradley
11-25-2007, 3:26 PM
I have run them in 40watt fixtures for years, no problem. The thing with these bulbs is to hang onto the package (or part of it) and the receipt. Many don't live up to the warranty period and I have gotten many free replacements. Talk about adding value.

Greg Cuetara
11-25-2007, 5:11 PM
Thanks for the help...Just wanted to make sure before I did something stupid...guess I do enough of that stuff anyways around here. Randy and David I do believe that you can use the energy saver bulbs on a dimmer switch BUT you have to have some special one's specifically made to be put on a dimmer...they are a lot more expensive than the regular energy saver bulbs. Y'all are correct that they do have a heating time so they are slow to get up to the light output. I have a few fixtures in the house which take forever to warm up and when I first moved in I thought there was an electrical problem but finally figured out they were just the energy saver bulbs.

I do have some flood light type bulbs in my overhead kitchen lights but not sure they are brighter than regular flood light bulbs.

Bob Genovesi
11-25-2007, 5:20 PM
Been using them here too. I have two variations, the warm incandescent light normally found inside and the bright white type in the basement. The bright white are just that, very bright and I can't believe you get all that for just 13 watts....COOL

Jim Becker
11-25-2007, 6:12 PM
And you can get them with higher than 13 watts...handy when you need to replace a 150 watt incandescent for some reason! I think that all the little "outages" that may exist now for certain situations with CF will go away real soon now. There is a bit of acceleration being encourage for adoption, including energy saving legislation in various jurisdictions. I think California is soon to mandate them if I'm not mistaken and that state does tend to take the lead on things like this.

mike wacker
11-25-2007, 10:13 PM
And you can get them with higher than 13 watts...handy when you need to replace a 150 watt incandescent for some reason! I think that all the little "outages" that may exist now for certain situations with CF will go away real soon now. There is a bit of acceleration being encourage for adoption, including energy saving legislation in various jurisdictions. I think California is soon to mandate them if I'm not mistaken and that state does tend to take the lead on things like this.

Spot on Jim. Sales guy last month dropped off a 65 watt CFL. It's meant to replace a 200 watt incandescent. Not something you need every day, but if you got that weird sopt with a prclean socket that you can fit a four foot flourescent in, they really rock. I used one "at camp" as a quick fix for a dark spot I wanted A LOT of lit in. Very happy with the result.

If you want to go to the absolute extreme, Framtek had a 200 watt screw-in flouresent lamp. No personal experience but OMG!

Mike Hood
11-25-2007, 10:46 PM
California plans to be off incandescents by 2012 and Australia just moved to be off by 2009.

Great legislation.

bill kiss
11-25-2007, 11:57 PM
:)GE manufactures a CF bulb that can be used with dimmers. They are called 'energy smart dimmable spirals' available at many Ace hardware stores.

David G Baker
11-26-2007, 10:13 AM
Bill,
Like everything else in my life, I am a few years behind the times. Did not know about the dimmer usable bulbs.

glenn bradley
11-26-2007, 10:20 AM
California plans to be off incandescents by 2012 and Australia just moved to be off by 2009.

Great legislation.

In California we are sometimes seen as forward thinking on environmental issues and thought of by some as 'tree-huggers'. Actually we just abused our environment so brutally and so fast, we have to get aggressive real quick.

I was raised here as were my parents and theirs. Pictures from only 30 - 40 years ago are staggeringly different than looking out the window. Bring on the CFL's :D.

Jim Becker
11-26-2007, 12:33 PM
Bill,
Like everything else in my life, I am a few years behind the times. Did not know about the dimmer usable bulbs.

Here's a useful piece I just found on dimmable CFL: http://www.thegreenguide.com/blog/freshfinds/340

David G Baker
11-26-2007, 1:31 PM
Thanks Jim. Now I am almost up to date on one thing.
I am using the CFL bulbs in 90% of my fixtures. My outside lights are what I am working on getting updated.

Greg Peterson
11-26-2007, 2:23 PM
We still use incandescent bulbs in some spaces, but nothing greater than the fixture specifications. Namely the bathrooms, hall light and overhead bedroom lights. These particular fixtures do not get extended use

My basement, or glorified crawlspace, originally had two 75 watt bulbs.

I ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit down to the basement, and wired in about a dozen new ceramic base lamp fixtures and am using 60 watt CF's.

The space is partitioned with a simple board wall, so I put the two spaces on separate switches as I usually don't go into the far side of the space. The total wattage draw of all the lights is 156 watts, while the two 75 watt bulbs was 150 watts.

Now, there are no dark corners in the basement. And given the relatively infrequent usage of the basement (yard working tools and storage), I expect the CF's to last many, many years.


This was an excellent opportunity to use CF's.

Chris Padilla
11-26-2007, 8:21 PM
I've got a T8 fixture in the laundry room in my garage on a motion sensor so you just have to walk in and voila, the light turns on for you. The sensor fits into the switch box and it was spendy at around $70 but LOML likes it with an armful of clothes.

Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread here but---->

What I really want in a CFL/Incandescent lighting application is this:

I have two lights on either side of the garage door plus a light at the front door/porch area. I'd like to operate them with a combination of motion sensors and lighting sensors in the following way:

(1) At dusk, the 3 lights should come on at like half-power and at dawn, they turn off.

(2) From dusk to dawn, the lights should come on at full-power when motion is sensed and stay on full-power until x amount of time after the motion is gone at which time they go back to half-power.

(3) During the day when the sun is out (dawn to dusk), they should be off.

(4) I also want the ability to turn any of these lights on to full-power at my whim thus overriding the light/motion sensors. This is handy for Halloween or when the pizza guy is delivering. :D

I see that CFLs have the ability to work at half-power (i.e. dimmable, thanks for the link, Jim). My system above may work with a combination of the two styles of lighting although I prefer all CFL if possible. I think my ideas above can fly using X10 technology although when I tossed this idea out to the guy at the SmartHome store, he scratched his head for a while and maybe came up with half of what I wanted.

Jim Becker
11-26-2007, 8:59 PM
Chris...you're a talented engineer...design something that can do that! In your copious free time, of course... :D

Al Willits
11-26-2007, 9:25 PM
They make three way ones also, wonder if they would work for what Chris needs?

We use a few of them, Minn winters are not kind to them so we don't have our security lights on them, plus I don't like the delay they have before they get to full power.
Work great indoors though.


Legislation for light bulbs...uh huh, just what we need is more gov't.....

Al

Jim Podsedly
11-27-2007, 9:18 AM
Has anybody changed out the lights in ceiling fans with the spiral ones?

I know that the fan lights are different than most lights and they withstand the vibrations from the fan.
I would guess the filament is stronger or built different. If the florescents do not have filament then they should be ok on a ceiling fan?

Pete Simmons
11-27-2007, 9:51 AM
Think I might move to Calif and light my house (inside and out) very bright with open air Carbon Arc Lights. Please be careful when visiting as we do not want any fires. I bet it might also decrease the dust in the shop by burning it as it is made.


I am all for the new energy saving bulbs, but it is a sad state of affairs when the state tells us what kinda light bulb I can use.

If old Tom Edison was still around I bet he would be all over this. Unless of course he invented the new kinda light!


I wonder if anyone has looked into how much energy it takes to build these energy saving lights?

As with many energy saving items we may be surprised if we look at the total package to find out what it is really being saved to green up the world!

1.Energy and resources to build.
2. Energy to use.
3.Waste items to dispose of.



And after all this - Yes - I do use the new CF lights everywhere I can. I just do not want the state to tell me I need to.

David G Baker
11-27-2007, 9:56 AM
Jim,
I have 3 ceiling fans with the floresecent bulbs in them. Each fan has four bulbs and so far they have been great. The bulbs have been in service for approximately 6 months. One of the ceiling fans we leave on 24/7, the others get used when it is hot.

Rob Bourgeois
11-27-2007, 11:45 AM
I wonder if anyone has looked into how much energy it takes to build these energy saving lights?

As with many energy saving items we may be surprised if we look at the total package to find out what it is really being saved to green up the world!

1.Energy and resources to build.
2. Energy to use.
3.Waste items to dispose of.



yeah they are made with mercury...if you break them inside you have spread mercury in your home. Read about how to clean up after they break.

There is a source for what you suggest about cost to benefit.( I just cant find it at this moment)

Take hybrid cars, they are actually generate more damage to the environment in the production of their batteries. So essentially you are trading one compartment of pollution to another. Carbon dioxide for heavy metal contamination in the mined areas that produce the metals in the batteries. Ethanol...is another myth..takes more energy to make it that it produces.

Sometimes "green" is just make you feel better about yourself, save you a few dollars all the while not really making a difference globally. Want to make a difference...just turn off the extra lights do with less

Chris Padilla
11-27-2007, 12:09 PM
Well, not to derail this thread any further but humans consume/use energy...period. Bikes take energy to build but probably not more than it takes to build a car.

I've seen "studies" that show how much oil/energy it takes to make all those plastic bottles we like to drink water out of. We all know drinking water is better for you than say soda or any sugary type of drink but someone will always find a way to make it sound bad.

The cold hard truth of the matter is that humans consume no matter what and more humans consume more resources.

Anyone familiar with the laws of thermodynamics? ;o) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

Greg Peterson
11-27-2007, 12:56 PM
As for those plastic bottles filled with water, they represent two very significant problems.

Billions of those bottles end up in landfills each year. This is a huge waste on many fronts.

The plastic used for packaged goods (bottles included) leech contaminants into the product. True, the FDA cleared various plastics as safe for food, years ago. But they never factored for extended, low dose exposure to these contaminant. The regulations regarding lead and asbestos have tightened over the years as the harm they present has become better understood.

We can be far more intelligent about our consumption than we have been up to now. Low volume toilets are (1.3 gallons / flush) so much better than the old fashioned toilets of years gone by. The first generation of low volume toilets weren't particularly good, but they pushed the engineers to find a better design.

We can do better in so many ways with little or no impact on our lifestyles. CF's offer a great solution for many applications.

The single most efficient machine ever known to man is the human body.

Bryan Berguson
11-27-2007, 1:55 PM
1000bulbs.com is a good resource for CFL's. They have every imaginable bulb there.

They do use less energy. I've built a display to show six of each on seperate 120v meters. Incandescent meter spins about 4 times as fast!

They do have mercury in them but it's very little, much less than a 4 foot flourescent tube. We could currently collect CFL's at our office for .65 per bulb. We don't do it but that is the going rate. Eventually, I think this price will come down.

The dimmable CFL's are way too inpensive right now, usually $8 and up. Not only that, they don't dim nearly as much as an incadescent will.

Cold start cfl's are available making them start better in lower temperatures. I have two "regular start" floods in recessed fixtures on my porch. They come on at zero degrees but very dim at first. Full brightness in less than 30 seconds.

CFL's can run about 180 degrees which is cold compared to the 525 plus of an incandescent.

LED's sound like the next great light but the truth is CFL's put out more lumens per watt than LED's making CFL's the better bargain, energy wise. Now, if you're talking about Christmas lights, LED's are the only way to go.

Bryan

Brian Elfert
11-27-2007, 2:00 PM
Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread here but---->

What I really want in a CFL/Incandescent lighting application is this:

I have two lights on either side of the garage door plus a light at the front door/porch area. I'd like to operate them with a combination of motion sensors and lighting sensors in the following way:


Light fixtures that do this are common and are sold at any home improvement store.

I have a light fixture outside that comes on at half wattage from dusk through dawn. If it senses motion it goes to full power. If the power switch is turned off and then back on the light will stay on full time. Turn the switch of and then back on again and it ges back to the normal mode.

My light fixture that does this quit working a while back. It would stay on all the time no matter how many times I flipped the switch. I bought a replacement fixture with a flourescent bulb, but have yet to put it in. The new fixture I think stays at full power all night, but it still uses the same or less power than running a regular bulb at half power.

Chris Padilla
11-27-2007, 2:01 PM
Now, if you're talking about Christmas lights, LED's are the only way to go.

Bryan

Bingo!! More and more of these are available every year, too! I think it is great! They don't waste energy in the form of heat (compared to other lights)...so they won't cause fires in real/fake trees. Also, they will last a very, very, very, very long time. Light emitting diodes...the way to go for decorative lighting.

Rob Bourgeois
11-27-2007, 6:52 PM
I've seen "studies" that show how much oil/energy it takes to make all those plastic bottles we like to drink water out of.

paper vs plastic debate is a good one also....more "oil " spent harvesting a renewable resource than creating the plastic from the oil.

Jim Becker
11-27-2007, 8:39 PM
Folks, let's stay focused on the subject, please...Energy Saver Bulbs.

Jim
SMC Moderator

Greg Cuetara
11-27-2007, 8:40 PM
Not to be a pain here but let's try and stay on point. The original question was regarding CFL light bulbs. The thread has shifted a bit to alternative CFL uses...LED's which I think is very good.....The bad part is getting into a wasteful debate on 'paper vs plastic' etc.

Chris, I wonder if Bill Gates house has the dimmer / light sensitive timer / switch that you are looking for. Good Luck and if you figure that one out it is probably a billion dollar idea because I think a lot of us would like something like that outside.

Randy Denby
11-27-2007, 11:11 PM
Chris,One thing that popped into my mind regarding dimmer/motion sensor type setup would be this,having a 2 bulb fixture, where both are controlled by a photo cell but one has a motion sensor in series . The one coming on with only photocell could be a 7 watter then when the 2nd senses motion it would come on with a higher wattage/lumen output.....
I'm gonna copyright that...so nevermind :D

michael gallagher
11-28-2007, 12:39 AM
Anyone seen a good price on the flood lights version? I could use some outside, but the ones I saw were almost 8.00 each! :eek: And they didn't say if they were usuable outside or not. Jim.


Sometimes HD has the outside version - it should say on the label if they are indoor or outdoor, but the easiest way to tell is they have the "bumps" on the outer glass (that covers the flourescent twist bulb) vs. the smooth glass. I was at HD Sunday, however, and they didn't have any in stock. It's kind of hit or miss on that at HD.

Lowe's, at least mine, has a better variety - many kinds of indoor / outdoor, plus 3-way flourescents for your indoor reading-type lamps.

I put some in our kitchen floods, and learned the $8 each hard-way you need to check the light output. While a buld, for example, may say it has the 60-watt equivalent, check the lumens output as well if it is rated a "soft," "medium", etc. bulb. My first attempt was getting the soft white and I heard nothing but complaints as the LOML couldn't "see." I told her it looked great, but quietly switched it out for a greater light output flourescent.

Greg Peterson
11-28-2007, 1:10 AM
The original question was regarding CFL light bulbs.

The original question was "The package says that the bulbs draw 13 watts and that they are a 60 watt equivalent. Can I put this type of bulb into a 40 watt lamp...It is only supposed to be drawing 13 watts which is less than 40 watts so it should be ok..."

The question was answered and many persons here presented the various uses for CF's as reinforcement for their answer.

LED's represent a superior alternative in specific applications. They aren't a silver bullet, but they are capable of delivering quality light in some situations. Traffic signals and motor vehicle indicator lamps are just two examples of their utility.

Curt Harms
11-28-2007, 8:35 AM
Randy,
They can not be used on a dimmer switch but the dimmer switch can easily be replaced with a standard switch.
I bought the 100 watt equivalent daylight bulbs from Menard's and love the brilliant white color they produce. It takes some folks a while to adjust to the light color.
I also use the 100 watt bulbs as a light source for taking photos for Ebay auctions.

We bought 6500K compact fluorescents for a 3 light fixture, 39 watts vs. 180 watts is a good thing and the 6500k bulbs, while putting out more of a bluish light than we're used to (we're used to incandescent bulbs) seem to illuminate well. There are a few dimmable CF's to be found but they're expensive. I suspect like the CF biz overall, give it a few months and dimmables may become more common and less expensive. I'm curious about the CF boom from the manufacturer's viewpoint. 2000 hour life vs. 10,000 hour life for CF's. They're going to eventually be selling 1/5 the number of bulbs annually compared to what they sell now.

Pete Simmons
11-28-2007, 9:01 AM
I need to keep a light on at night outside our townhouse (Assoc Rules - pretty good for a guy who does not want to be told what kinda light to use - I am told how to do most everything else! )

Well think and compare these -


1. Std light say 15 to 40 watt - with a light sensor.

A. Light sensor uses a little power all day.
B. Bulbs seldom seem to last more than 3 - 6 months.


2. CF 10 watt light left on 24 hours a day.

A. The ones I have in use have been on close to a year - never a blink.


I have neighbors who think I am wasting electrical power.

What do you think????

Which uses more power over a year?

Which is less $$ over a year - factor in cost of replacement bulbs.

Doyle Alley
11-28-2007, 1:02 PM
How do CFL's handle generator power - i.e. something significantly less than a perfect sine wave?

Chris Padilla
11-28-2007, 2:40 PM
1. Std light say 15 to 40 watt - with a light sensor.

A. Light sensor uses a little power all day.
B. Bulbs seldom seem to last more than 3 - 6 months.


2. CF 10 watt light left on 24 hours a day.

A. The ones I have in use have been on close to a year - never a blink.


I have neighbors who think I am wasting electrical power.

What do you think????

Which uses more power over a year?

Which is less $$ over a year - factor in cost of replacement bulbs.

A 40 W bulb uses 4 times the energy of the 10 W CFL HOWEVER, the CFL is on 24 hours per day and they 40 W bulb is on, say, 12 hours a day, or half as much. That still comes out in the CFL's favor by 2.

Create yourself a little "figure of merit" if you like:

40 W * 12 hours = 480 W*hours
10 W * 24 hours = 240 W*hours

If you wish to include cost, just put it in:

40 W * 12 hours * $ 4 = 1920 W*hours*$ (assume bulb is $1 at 4 per year)
10 W * 24 hours * $ 1 = 240 W* hours*$ (assume bulb is $1 at 1 per year)

That photo-sensor's energy useage is probably negligible compared to the bulb's energy useage.

They have CFLs that operate on motion sensors but I do not know if they have CFLs that operate on photo-sensors. The motion sensor is expensive...the one in my laundry room was $70...but I would hope it would last for years and years.

If you go to a much smaller incandescent, the numbers are a lot closer. CFLs, at least in California, are quite cheap due to the rebate the energy company provides so my cost for CFL might be WAY OFF for you.

I hope this give you an idea how you can compare them to decide what works best for you or at least gives you an argument to assuage the neighbors that you are trying to be miserly.... :)

Chris Padilla
11-28-2007, 2:44 PM
How do CFL's handle generator power - i.e. something significantly less than a perfect sine wave?

What does "significantly less than a perfect sine wave" mean? Are we talking 50 Hz instead of 60 Hz?

Are we talking 100 Vrms amplitude instead of 120 Vrms amplitude?

Are we talking a severly distorted shape of the wave or especially noisy? (that kind of falls in with the above Vrms question since rms is an average of the voltage over a single cycle of the wave)

Seems that the generator isn't very good if it cannot put out an appropriate signal.

Lee Schierer
11-28-2007, 4:35 PM
The one down side to the CF's is that they all contain mercury. What happens to that when the bulb goes to the landfill??

Chris Padilla
11-29-2007, 10:26 AM
I think because these CFLs last a long time, there won't be so many going to the landfill. Where do all the incandscents that don't last as long go?

However, the mercury content is there, it is small, but it is there. Recycling programs here in the Bay Area allow you to drop off things like this so that they are disposed of properly. Now I don't know exactly what that means to be honest.

Terre Hooks
11-30-2007, 10:23 AM
The one down side to the CF's is that they all contain mercury. What happens to that when the bulb goes to the landfill??



Hopefully they will be recycled properly in 2 years when they start getting replaced at a heavy rate.

Jay Jolliffe
11-30-2007, 4:51 PM
I had two 150/w CFL's to try in my shop and they worked ok except they weren't that bright. When I bought them didn't notice they were the soft light ones. I bought 6 120/w CFL's daylight ones & they all have a hum to them. The 150's didn't. Does anyone else notice a hum from them?

Jim Becker
11-30-2007, 5:16 PM
Jay, the one in the light on my nightstand has a high-pitched hum...I almost don't hear it due to my, umm...poor hearing...but it does bother Professor Dr. SWMBO. The one on her side of the bed doesn't hum. I just keep forgetting to change mine out...

Greg Peterson
11-30-2007, 7:20 PM
I imagine with the proliferation of CF's and rechargeable batteries, recyclers will begin offering more convenient collection. It wasn't all that many years ago that cardboard, plastic and glass curbside recycling was not available.

Now if I could just get our recycler to styrofoam. Have a couple of big pieces from my new SC mortiser I have to get rid of before SWMBO discovers them! :eek:

David G Baker
11-30-2007, 7:24 PM
I imagine with the proliferation of CF's and rechargeable batteries, recyclers will begin offering more convenient collection. It wasn't all that many years ago that cardboard, plastic and glass curbside recycling was not available.

Now if I could just get our recycler to styrofoam. Have a couple of big pieces from my new SC mortiser I have to get rid of before SWMBO discovers them! :eek:
Greg,
That was one sneaky gloat if I have ever seen one.

Brett Elliott
11-30-2007, 8:11 PM
can they be used with dimmer switches?

Yes some of them can be used with a dimmer. See GE's FAQ (http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/ask_us/faq_compact.htm#dimmer).

Brett

Greg Peterson
11-30-2007, 8:55 PM
Greg,
That was one sneaky gloat if I have ever seen one.

Did I get a gloat in there? Really? Why, I never meant to do that. :eek:;)

David G Baker
12-01-2007, 10:45 AM
Greg,
I am hoping for a few gloats before the year's end.
I put in a bunch of the earlier CFs in a home I had in California that had a very short life. So far the daylight ones I have been using have held up great. I am going to give them a try in one of my out buildings to see how they work in the 1 degree weather we have been having. It is 10:45 AM and the temp has finally reached 18*.

Chris Padilla
12-03-2007, 11:53 AM
T8 fluorescents work great in the cold, David, and and are nearly instantly fully on like a good old incandescent bulb.