My new cyclone separator lid design

[Phil Thien]

I've been working on this for some time: A cyclone separator lid that approaches true cyclones in separation efficiency and is scrub-proof.

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/cy.htm (http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/cy.htm)

I hope this is not a violation of the TOS. If it is, would whomever deletes it please let me know if there is a way to post such that it conforms? If at all possible?

[Darl Bundren]

Phil, that is awesome. Do you think a similar one would work if you used smaller pipes and a five gallon bucket and ran it with a shopvac? And did you do anything to ensure that the cyclone lid was snug against the trash can? How did you avoid leaks?

[Frank Hagan]

Very nice, Phil! I made a chip collector for my planer that used a trash can, but I cut into it and made an inlet air ramp on the side, then had a center discharge into a box sized for a 20" furnace filter ... the chip distribution was nearly the same in the bottom, with the chips swirled around and built up like a donut near the center rather than at the edges.

I like the simplicity of your design, and especially that it is so compact. I think its something I could "hide" under my table saw arm when not in use.

BTW - I tried to register at your forums but I couldn't get past the CAPTCHA security code ... I can never tell if some letters are upper or lower case. I'll try again when it changes letters (having several forums I currently run, you do need something to keep the spammers away, so I understanding having it in place ... I found SimpleMachines Forum -- SMF -- to be superior to phpBB for that type of thing ... and much easier to upgrade when the time comes.)

[Phil Thien]

Phil, that is awesome. Do you think a similar one would work if you used smaller pipes and a five gallon bucket and ran it with a shopvac? And did you do anything to ensure that the cyclone lid was snug against the trash can? How did you avoid leaks?

This small model I demo actually is used w/ a shop vac. I used a ten gallon steel garbage can, which really isn't that much larger than a 5-gallon pail. You might be able to squeeze the design into a smaller 5-gallon pail, but the performance would probably suffer a little unless (like you mentioned) you reduced pipe diameter accordingly.

There is another reason to avoid plastic pails, though. And that is to avoid static problems. I'm not concerned with the chance of explosion, but rather have noticed that static charged plastic can interfere with the operation of the cyclone.

The tops I've made during have been of MDF and sometimes (when I've got scraps that are large enough) baltic birch. I cut a lip on the plywood and it "snaps" down into the steel can quite nicely. No leaks, and I don't use any weather stripping.

[Phil Thien]

Very nice, Phil! I made a chip collector for my planer that used a trash can, but I cut into it and made an inlet air ramp on the side, then had a center discharge into a box sized for a 20" furnace filter ... the chip distribution was nearly the same in the bottom, with the chips swirled around and built up like a donut near the center rather than at the edges.

I like the simplicity of your design, and especially that it is so compact. I think its something I could "hide" under my table saw arm when not in use.

BTW - I tried to register at your forums but I couldn't get past the CAPTCHA security code ... I can never tell if some letters are upper or lower case. I'll try again when it changes letters (having several forums I currently run, you do need something to keep the spammers away, so I understanding having it in place ... I found SimpleMachines Forum -- SMF -- to be superior to phpBB for that type of thing ... and much easier to upgrade when the time comes.)

Thanks for the forum tip. I took phpBB because it was what was offered by the hosting guys. I'll look into the SMF, though, as it is still early enough to change. And I do regret the difficulty of reading the codes, had trouble myself when I was testing.

Thanks for the kind words!

[Chris Friesen]

I've been working on this for some time: A cyclone separator lid that approaches true cyclones in separation efficiency and is scrub-proof.

That looks great for a shopvac to keep the drum from filling up as fast. That sort of design typically doesn't scale well to larger collectors if the goal is to separate out the fine dust. Once you start moving more air the physical size required makes this design impractical. This is the reason for the popularity of the cyclone--done right it can separate out a large percentage of even the very fine particles.

[Phil Thien]

That looks great for a shopvac to keep the drum from filling up as fast. That sort of design typically doesn't scale well to larger collectors if the goal is to separate out the fine dust. Once you start moving more air the physical size required makes this design impractical. This is the reason for the popularity of the cyclone--done right it can separate out a large percentage of even the very fine particles.

My tests indicate that my design scales infinitely better than designs w/ no baffle. I'm trying to apply the 90-10 rule. That is, I'm trying to provide 90% of the performance of a true cyclone for 10% (actually, a lot less) of the cost and complexity (and size). I make no claims of outperforming or even being the equal of a large Torit cyclone.

[Rick Gifford]

Well I think it's pretty cool when folks do their own creating like this. You've put time and alot of thought getting this to work. Your video looks like it's doing pretty well.

I have heard alot of complaints about the performance of the trash can collectors. You might start changing some opinions.

[Phil Thien]

I thought I'd post part of an E-Mail I received from someone that had actually constructed one of my separators:




Given all of that, I ran one test. I measured out 13.7 oz (digital postal scale) of fines (not much coarse stuff), dumped it on the floor, slowly vacuumed it up into an empty and clean collector can and then measured 13.5 oz captured in the can. That is only 98.5% efficiency!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WOW. When I looked in the can, the collected material looked "skimpy" and I thought I had missed a lot of it, but the scale told the tale. Wow again.

98.5% ain't bad. I don't know what the separation efficiency of the Dust Deputy and Mini ClearVue are, but reports here and elsewhere say that fines still make it through to the filter.

So instead of buying one of those pricey cyclones why not keep your cash and build one of my designs for $10-$15 in parts? You can use some of your savings for a nice HEPA filter for your vac. You may even use some of it for a bag for your vac (I like to use bags because I like to keep my filter pristine and sometimes I use my vac in the garage and at work and I don't take the separator with me).

[Mike Goetzke]

Phil - great design and persistence!

I have a Jet DC with a canister on the top and bag on the bottom. I swear that if I clean the fine dust particles from the filter pleats and they fall into the bottom bag that they almost immediately find their way to the top again. Maybe a baffle like yours could be added to help reduce the lower bag turbulence which causes the small debris to always find it's way to the top while still having enough turbulence above the baffle to separate the dust from the air.

Mike

[Phil Thien]

Phil - great design and persistence!

I have a Jet DC with a canister on the top and bag on the bottom. I swear that if I clean the fine dust particles from the filter pleats and they fall into the bottom bag that they almost immediately find their way to the top again. Maybe a baffle like yours could be added to help reduce the lower bag turbulence which causes the small debris to always find it's way to the top while still having enough turbulence above the baffle to separate the dust from the air.

Mike

Mike, you need two: (1) Above the input that has a 7 or 8" hole centered in it. (2) Below the input, shaped as in the baffle on my page.

Of course, the input would have to be designed so it puts the debris into a circular motion already. I'm not an expert on single-stage collectors, but most of the ones I've seen and played with seem to do this.

Give it a shot, it substantially reduces the fines going into the filter.

[Al Willits]

Great post Phil, thanks.
Just wondering if you used the lid that comes with most garbage cans and installed a rubber seal around the edge if that would work??

Been looking for one of these, and I think I found it now...:)

Al

[Phil Thien]

Great post Phil, thanks.
Just wondering if you used the lid that comes with most garbage cans and installed a rubber seal around the edge if that would work??

Been looking for one of these, and I think I found it now...:)

Al

You could make that work. I'm not accustomed to metal work, so I made my tops from plywood.

The only challenge is using metal (as I see it) would be getting the elbow attached securely, and making sure there were no leaks between the top and fittings.

[Al Willits]

You could make that work. I'm not accustomed to metal work, so I made my tops from plywood.

The only challenge is using metal (as I see it) would be getting the elbow attached securely, and making sure there were no leaks between the top and fittings.


Thinking maybe a piece of 1/2" plywood under the lid with a bit of silicone, then screw the fitting right though the lid and into the plywood.

We're getting close to it'd just be easier to use a wood top aren't we? :D

Wood might just be the way to go, as I think something smaller than a 30 gallon thrash can is what I'd like to use.

Maybe about the size of a five gallon pail but twice as tall, then make a little mobile mount to put the vaccum and cyclone on.

Al

[Jim Chilenski]

Phil,

Fantastic work! You said the the idea would scale up in size, do you belive that it would work with a two-stage dust collector as well? I use a unit built by Cincinnati Fan ,model 200, marketed under the Delta name as model number 50-181.

http://www.cincinnatifan.com/portable-dust-collectors.htm

Do you believe that your baffle would work with this size unit as well? Again thanks for your sharing your hard work. :)

Jim

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

Fantastic work! You said the the idea would scale up in size, do you belive that it would work with a two-stage dust collector as well? I use a unit built by Cincinnati Fan ,model 200, marketed under the Delta name as model number 50-181.

http://www.cincinnatifan.com/portable-dust-collectors.htm

Do you believe that your baffle would work with this size unit as well? Again thanks for your sharing your hard work. :)

Jim

Funny that you ask because the gentleman that built the first (besides me) and sent me his test results is working to purchase a 2-stage to make the modification.

Yep, it will help. The baffle will shield the output tube from the somewhat chaotic chamber. If you look at the bottom of the baffles in my test units there is always dust on the bottom (the side that faces the bottom of the garbage can). Without the baffle, most of that dust (and the dust that didn't stick to the baffle) would have likely made it out the output tube.

BTW, there are some 2-stage units out there that have no elbow and others that have sorta a Tee on the input. Those problems would need to be resolved in order for the baffle to work.

[steve johnson]

Hi folks, I took the burned out motor off my old Sears shop vac and used the old vac top and bottom as the cyclone part of the collector. I used plywood, caulk and duct tape to seal where the motor had been. It might not swirl as others describe, but it works well. The chips etc. fall into it and pretty much dust gathers in the final shop vac.

[Bas Pluim]

I know I'm resurrecting an old thread here, but the results were so good I figured others might benefit from this.

I have the "2HP" Harbor Freight DC with Wynn cannister and home made trash can lid. I added the baffle designed by Phil, and it's made an amazing difference. Only a tiny amount of dust now escapes the trash can, which means I don't have to wrestle with the !^#$@!@#$#@ bag buckle more than a few times a year. Before the modification, I'd be lucky if half of the dust stayed in the can.

It's not a 'real' cyclone, but it's pretty darn good!

Total cost: $8 (2x2 piece of particle board, 3/4" poplar dowel).

Bas.

[Phil Thien]

I know I'm resurrecting an old thread here, but the results were so good I figured others might benefit from this.

I have the "2HP" Harbor Freight DC with Wynn cannister and home made trash can lid. I added the baffle designed by Phil, and it's made an amazing difference. Only a tiny amount of dust now escapes the trash can, which means I don't have to wrestle with the !^#$@!@#$#@ bag buckle more than a few times a year. Before the modification, I'd be lucky if half of the dust stayed in the can.

It's not a 'real' cyclone, but it's pretty darn good!

Total cost: $8 (2x2 piece of particle board, 3/4" poplar dowel).

Bas.

Thanks Bas, glad it is working for you. Reports are coming in from people making the separators and also adding my baffle to their 1-stage DC's and the comments have been very favorable so far.

[Gary Ratajczak]

Phil:
When you mentioned people adding to their single stage systems, is it via the trashcan, or actually internal to the system?

I have a Jet DC1200, and modified by adding a tin ramp on the inlet to get the material flowing in a downward spiral. I extended a pipe on the hole from the lower to the upper chambers.

This seems to help a lot in getting the material to break free from the airstream, and remain in the lower bag.

Your design could easily be adapted to the mid section of my DC1200 - is that what others have done?

Thanks

[Phil Thien]

Phil:
Your design could easily be adapted to the mid section of my DC1200 - is that what others have done?

Thanks

Exactly. The debris in the center of the bottom bag acts chaotically when the DC is running. The finer dust is constantly being separated and is running straight up the chimney to the filter on top. By adding my baffle, a particle in the bottom bag that has been lifted has to re-enter the cyclonic rotation before it can sneak up to the filter. If it was heavy enough to settle once, it will likely settle again.

This means the filter stays cleaner, longer.

For those of you that can't afford the full static pressure drop of a cyclone separator, you can still extend the life and reduce the necessary cleanings of your filters by using my design.

[Tom Cowie]

Phil

If it works as good as it looks you have a great design. I'm very impressed with your invention.

Tom

[Jack Ganssle]

I recently built Phil's trash can cyclone and use it with my 14 gallon Rigid vacuum.

All I can say is "wow!"

Previously the vac's filter needed cleaning on nearly a daily basis when doing a lot of woodworking. Now, well, it's been several weeks, with lots of shop time, and I've yet to clean it.

Phil said it's 98.5% effective, but I think it's better than that. I've emptied the trash can 3 or 4 times. The vac still has not accumulated more than a quarter cup of dust! What's amazing is that even the fines are captured in the trash can.

I modified the design a little by adding weatherstripping around the bottom of the plywood, to form a seal with the trashcan.

There are three advantages to Phil's idea vs just using a shop vac:
- Many fewer filter cleanings
- Emptying a vac is a pain, as it's an akward shape to carry. I used to scoop the chips into plastic bags. Now I just carry the trash can to the bin outside and empty it.
- The shop is much cleaner. Some small percentage of dust does get through the vac's filter, of course. But with the cyclone removing most of the dust (chips and fines alike), there's that much less to pass through the filter. My wife is happy as her stained glass shop is in the next room and used to get that fine dust on things.

The cost:
- $14 for the trash can at Ace
- $4 for the PVC from Ace
- $9 for two 2.5" hose ports from Woodcraft
- $0 for some scrap wood that was around
- $0 for the weatherstripping which was around
- $15 for an extra length of vac hose

Not having to clean the filter, empty the vac, clean the dust: Priceless!

Jack

[Gary Ratajczak]

Phil:
Another question on the 1 stage mods. My Father in Law has a Penn State I may experiment with - if it looks better than my Jet, I'll mod mine also.

When you install the baffle in a 1 stage, do you need to modify the dust inlet? It would normally come in horizontally to the side of the unit, and spin in a circular fashion. No real spiraling downward force. That's why i did the circular ramp in my unit - would you suggest the same?

Thanks for the info!!!
Gary R

[Phil Thien]

Phil:
Another question on the 1 stage mods. My Father in Law has a Penn State I may experiment with - if it looks better than my Jet, I'll mod mine also.

When you install the baffle in a 1 stage, do you need to modify the dust inlet? It would normally come in horizontally to the side of the unit, and spin in a circular fashion. No real spiraling downward force. That's why i did the circular ramp in my unit - would you suggest the same?

Thanks for the info!!!
Gary R

As long as your inlet spins the airstream then you don't need a neutral vane, just the baffle.

[Greg McCallister]

Phil,
How is the air flow using your separator?
I have a HF DC with the .5 micron filter and clear bag.
Was wondering if one were to take your design and mount the motor on the adapter instead of flex piping thus using the 5" inlet to the blade? One would have to mount the motor and such to be able to drop the can down to remove it.
Could probably be mounted on the same platform area as the DC motor and blade assembly.
Do you understand what I mean?

[Phil Thien]

Phil,
How is the air flow using your separator?
I have a HF DC with the .5 micron filter and clear bag.
Was wondering if one were to take your design and mount the motor on the adapter instead of flex piping thus using the 5" inlet to the blade? One would have to mount the motor and such to be able to drop the can down to remove it.
Could probably be mounted on the same platform area as the DC motor and blade assembly.
Do you understand what I mean?

I think what you're describing is using my design as a hybrid two-stage dust collector. If you google two-stage dust collectors, you'll find that Delta and others made units that used a drum on the bottom, and had the blower mounted to the removable top.

If that is what you're describing, my design will work fine for that. In fact, I already have corresponded with a building doing just that. You can mount the blower to the lid and lift the lid off when it is time to empty (HEAVY) or come up with some scheme where the bottom can be removed w/o having to lift the weight.

[Greg McCallister]

You understand exactly what I meant. OK, then you have thought about doing that. Lets us know how that works?
What I was really concerned about was the loss of air flow. I noticed when I had used a can lid separator before, the air flow was greatly reduced (static pressure I presume) and only really use it when I was planing due to large amount of wood chips. (Hate when those hit the fan blade :mad:;)). Would love a cyclone but the cost is not feasible now, nor in the near future and don't have the wiring nor ceiling height (weekend warrior at best with woodworking)
You sure solved the problem with the can separator though, you are right that the can would only really hold half a can full at most and usually still sucked up quite a bit through the DC.
I do have some scrap MDF around - might give it a try.

[Phil Thien]

What I was really concerned about was the loss of air flow. I noticed when I had used a can lid separator before, the air flow was greatly reduced (static pressure I presume) and only really use it when I was planing due to large amount of wood chips.

Many "stock" or commercial separator lids leak like a sieve and may reduce CFM by 40%. But still, there is no free lunch. My lid reduces my CFM by about 22%, which is probably about what a well-designed cyclone would do. If you want, you can modify your single-stage (w/ canister) DC using my baffle and at least your filter will stay clean longer.

[Chuck Lenz]

Very nicely done Phil.

[Phil Thien]

Hey Phil I just got mine working as I just got my DC. I ran an add in Woodnet that I was looking for one and a nice guy in Florida hooked me up with a Penn State 1-1/2 HP portable unit and it works great. I sanded and planed for about 4 hrs. yesterday and filled the 20 lb can with chips and dust and the bag didn't even have a handful of stuff in it! I'm going to get a high quality felt 1 micron bag and see what happens next. As you can see in the photos I mounted mine right on top of the separator lid. I wanted the shortest and most direct connection for the inlet into the DC. Also, as you can also see I put a lot of duct tape on the connections as I was paranoid about any air leaks because the 90 degree elbows were the metal ones that you could actually twist for the best angle. You have my permission to post these on your site and on Woodnet if you want as it was your design in the first place and I thank you for it.

Aloha,
Rob


This was received via E-Mail from Robert in Hawaii. Hopefully Robert will share his future observations as he uses it more. I've included a few pics of his finished project here. There are more at my site:

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/cy.htm