What is Ugliest Piece of Furniture Norm Has Made? [Archive]

Carl Eyman

11-24-2007, 3:24 PM

David G Baker

11-24-2007, 3:29 PM

I didn't see Norm making cowboy furniture but I looked at the thread here on SMC that had a photo of the Nanny Rocker on it and think it is one of the nicest pieces I have seen in a while.

Keith Starosta

11-24-2007, 3:37 PM

I was watching a re-run of NYW with Norm making "Cowboy Furniture" he found in Wyoming. I think it is the ugliest piece he's ever made. I wonder if there is enough interest on the Creek to take a poll and see what people think. If you will post to this thread nominating a piece you think the ugliest I'll set up a poll to check the opinion of others.

If you want to nominate the nicest piece also, we can run a poll on that.

LOL.....Carl, before I even opened up the thread to see the response to your question, I was thinking..."Cowboy Furniture". I loved that episode, only for the tour we got of that awesome house in the mountains, but HOLY COW, was that piece bad!!! :eek:

To each his own, I suppose....

- Keith

Norman Pyles

11-24-2007, 4:06 PM

Yes, yes, yes, that coyboy thing he built. :eek: I think he keep's one, and the Morash's get the other. Wonder were in their homes these went?

Norman Pyles

11-24-2007, 4:09 PM

Oh yeah, the nicest was the highboy.

Paul Girouard

11-24-2007, 4:11 PM

This one ?

http://www.newyankee.com/sketches/0706s.gif

Really the mark of a good builder / craftsman's is to be able to build what the client wants and build it well. design is a whole other matter.

That piece looks well made , the style is what it is , beautiful to some , ugly as sin to others.

This door is nice , although the panels , to me , are to dark and the bottom rail should have been wider than the center rail .

http://www.newyankee.com/sketches/0702s.gif

But that step up appears to be at least 8" , more than likely more ( about 9 ") to the sill , but of course Norm didn't build the landing , more than likely didn't have much say in the steps height , he should have , as it's way to big a step. Poor Grandma will have a hard time with that one .

Can't say I like the design on this dry sink either ,

http://www.newyankee.com/sketches/0703s.gif

those flat 3/8 (it appears) lip doors will warp and the center rail is to wide.

But again the workmanship is fine .

This one would be my vote for ugliest,

http://www.newyankee.com/sketches/0710s.gif

But of course the original piece that was copied here sold for close to 3 MILLION :eek: so what do I know :D
Again the work it self looks well done, I just don't like the pieces design.

Jamie Buxton

11-24-2007, 6:14 PM

I saw a rerun of what must have been a very early show. Norm looked postively young. He built a corner cabinet which he said was "early American" -- that's as specific as he got. He made it from pine and MDF. He put it together with glue and and lots of brads. He made no allowance for the difference in expansion rate between the lumber and the MDF. He finished it with milk paint. He went on and on about milk paint, like he had just learned about it. All in all, it was a pretty amateurish effort.

Doug Shepard

11-24-2007, 6:18 PM

Sheesh. That cowboy piece is ugly. I must have missed that episode. Looks like something you'd buy at the gift shop at some western themed tourist trap.

Jeff Raymond

11-24-2007, 7:18 PM

I'm not a big Norm fan.

There are lots of people who have their hands on the work during the course of taping and he's the frontman.

Show biz.

JayStPeter

11-24-2007, 7:23 PM

I'm not much of a fan of this one. Something about the proportions bothers me. The width vs. height and especially the top door width seem wrong. Though I have to admit in this pic it looks better than when I watched the show.
Personally, I thought the cowboy thing was pretty neat. But, I agree he didn't pick the nicest piece in the joint.

http://www.newyankee.com/sketches/0707s.gif

Paul Girouard

11-24-2007, 7:30 PM

I'm not a big Norm fan.

There are lots of people who have their hands on the work during the course of taping and he's the frontman.

Show biz.

Not on the New Yankee, it's all Norm , all the time , or so they say.

Yes they may have a camera crew guy help him move a heavy object , just like we have a friend, co worker or neighbor help move something , but the building / cutting etc is all Norm according to everything I've read or heard. They could be lying , I've never met Norm or been on-site / in his shop when he worked or filmed, maybe you have better Intel?

On TOH that may be some what true as they contract out almost all the work either to Silva Bros. or a general contractor in the area they are filming in. So some of that may be setup work , can say for sure.

Rick Gifford

11-24-2007, 7:32 PM

Jeff Raymond

11-24-2007, 7:33 PM

Gary Keedwell

11-24-2007, 7:44 PM

That is a pretty badly designed piece of furniture. But that's what happens when you have a carpenter try to be a cabinetmaker.

Happens every time.
Gee guys, why don't you cut him some slack. I'm sure he doesn't make the choice of his projects by his lonesome.:rolleyes: Norm's been a carpenter before he did serious woodworking. Do you think he would be a better WW if he was a baker or used car salesman?:cool:
Personally, I think he has done very good for the last 17 years or so. He has inspired alot of people regardless of skill level.
Gary

Jeff Raymond

11-24-2007, 7:52 PM

He has inspired alot of people regardless of skill level.

That is very true and good for him for that. There is some other wood guy on TV that is also good, but I don't remember his name.

Jerry Olexa

11-24-2007, 7:57 PM

Agree: the cowboy piece and the last pic in Paul's thread. Tie. Still think he's contributed much to the WWing community (even though he uses his nail gun too much IMHO)..

JayStPeter

11-24-2007, 7:59 PM

That is a pretty badly designed piece of furniture. But that's what happens when you have a carpenter try to be a cabinetmaker.

Happens every time.

That one was picked from the collection at Winterthur? in Deleware. It was picked to match another painted piece he built from there. The antique didn't look right either. If anything Norms is slightly better, but I suspect that's just the new paint. After 17+ years of NYW, I think Norm has progressed beyond carpenter trying to be cabinetmaker. I also think his own designs are usually pretty decent. This one even had some nice details that I like. It was a good show to watch ... just wouldn't build the piece as shown.

Jim Becker

11-24-2007, 8:03 PM

There are lots of people who have their hands on the work during the course of taping and he's the frontman.

Not true. Norm does all the work himself for both the prototype and the actual project which is taped "live". You can even watch them create the shows via the NYW webcam.

Cody Colston

11-24-2007, 8:14 PM

That is a pretty badly designed piece of furniture. But that's what happens when you have a carpenter try to be a cabinetmaker.

Happens every time.

I guess real cabinetmakers are born as such, huh?

Whatever, don't blame Norm since he did not design that particular cupboard. As with most of his projects, this one is a copy of an existing piece.

From the NYW web site:

Little is known about the handsome Painted Cupboard, which resides in one of the period rooms in the elegant country estate at the Winterthur Museum in Delaware. On a guided tour with Director of Conservation Gregory Landrey, Norm discovers the cupboard and is drawn to its scale, the unusual arched top door, and the “pinched” cornice that towers above the case. Norm will build his own version to the same dimensions back at The New Yankee Workshop and even matches the green blue paint on the exterior and the wine red color used for the interior

As for Norm's ugliest piece, I have to vote for the corner table that he made from the waterlogged Oak salvaged from a dam on Virginia's Rappahannock river. While the design and proportions of the table are fine, that black-colored Oak is just pure ugly to me.

Paul Girouard

11-24-2007, 8:16 PM

That is a pretty badly designed piece of furniture. But that's what happens when you have a carpenter try to be a cabinetmaker.

Happens every time.

Yanno Norm sure can bring out the comments , remember when FWW put him on thier cover , that sure chaffed a few hides of those , mostly , who never made a living as either a WW cabinetmaker or carpenter :rolleyes:

FWIW , from the site I snagged the photo's:

Little is known about the handsome Painted Cupboard, which resides in one of the period rooms in the elegant country estate at the Winterthur Museum in Delaware. On a guided tour with Director of Conservation Gregory Landrey, Norm discovers the cupboard and is drawn to its scale, the unusual arched top door, and the “pinched” cornice that towers above the case. Norm will build his own version to the same dimensions etc............

Link : http://www.newyankee.com/2007.shtml

So I guess bad design is nothing new eh:rolleyes: He copied it in others words he did not design it and most of what he's build for the show he has NOT designed , he copied pieces he or the staff have liked.

But yes carpenters can muck up a cabinet design almost as well as cabinetmakers can screw up building a house.

Ditto eh Cody! Yer fast!

Pat Germain

11-24-2007, 8:28 PM

How can anyone bust on Norm? After all, he's "The other Jewish carpenter". ;)

Seriously, while I think many Norm criticisms are justified, I also think he's a very good woodworker. When the show first started, he used only a small set of power tools. Now things have become downright ridiculous with the giant drum sander and all. I still like to watch his show, when I can catch it.

I think we should consider how difficult it would be to come up with new, multiple projects every year; for seventeen years!

I caught part of a NYW last night and, I must admit, the cupboard he made was pretty heinous. The interior was painted mint green and outside was stained a very deep red. It may have been authhentic to the original, but "blech".

John Lucas

11-24-2007, 8:53 PM

I'm not a big Norm fan.

There are lots of people who have their hands on the work during the course of taping and he's the frontman.

Show biz.

That 2nd statement sounds like you think he only has partial personal effort in the making of the piece? Have you not watched any of the webcam that shoots him at work live. One minute between exposures and you suggest a real master runs out and does 55 seconds of work. I think there may be a selection committee of what will be made (with Russell being the only voter) but after that, it is all Norm.

Al Killian

11-24-2007, 9:37 PM

The cowboy thing would be nice if it did'nt have all those designs on it. I was thinking the basice design would make a exellent hall table. There are many things he makes that I personally care for, however I watch him more for techniqes then for designs.

Ed Costello

11-24-2007, 9:40 PM

nic obie

11-24-2007, 9:50 PM

Norm's alright.

There are other things on tv that are worse.

Flip this ;)

Paul Girouard

11-24-2007, 9:51 PM

I would love to be able to make furniture for a living and not have to rely on selling it to put food on the table.

I have made allot of ugly furniture and not made a dime on it.

Norm makes money on every piece he makes!!!!! something to think about..regards

Ed made make something that looks nice instead of ugly ;)

But ya Norn's got"er' made eh :D No worries !

Gregory Stahl

11-24-2007, 10:05 PM

I don't think I have seen anything I care for on his show, but I do learn from him, so the show does have value to me.

I prefer David Marks style and I have learned much more from his show, WoodWorks.

Also, I would like to see Norm come-up with something original. In every episode I have seen, Norm is copying some existing piece of furniture or idea. But I guess that is his style, old world colonial.

Greg

Randal Stevenson

11-24-2007, 10:10 PM

When I watch his show I am always amazed at the tool resourses he has. I know sponsors load him down with tools. I mean seriously, is there anything his shop doesn't have?

I will admit as well, that cowboy peice is love it or hate it. I think it looks ok, as long as it's in someone elses home...

You just hit on my pet peeve about Norm. We have NEVER got to see HIS shop! Probably never will as longs as he is paid/sponsered with tools, as it would actually show his preferences.

I haven't watched enough of them the last few years to say what would be my idea of his worst project. To me it is more about seeing new skills/tools on the show (in the ugly cowboy furniture one, it would be combining woodwork, with my fathers leatherwork hobby).

Paul Girouard

11-24-2007, 10:26 PM

You just hit on my pet peeve about Norm. We have NEVER got to see HIS shop! Probably never will as longs as he is paid/sponsered with tools, as it would actually show his preferences.

His own shop is shown in one of his books , about building his own house . But it's a photo before it was tooled up IIRC.

The un funding of PBS was really a boom for TOH and NYWS in many ways . They couldn't take any thing , tools , direct dollars etc , prefunding cut , and if you remember all the manf. tags where taped over , so you had to know what brand tool he was using. Which made it harder to get a like and kind tool unless you really knew tools well anyway.

It would be a show I'd watch IF they did a NYWS visit to Norm's personal shop. That would be interesting.

I watch pretty sporadically these days as his stuff is sort of the same old same old for me. But I do think he's done more for amateur wood working than most.

Chris Barnett

11-24-2007, 10:52 PM

If the woodcrafters continue to fault the NYW, perhaps the folks who pay the bills could come up with another reality show, a whole lot cheaper :(. I believe both Norm and David do fabulous work, each in their own style; try to never miss a show [or forget to record :D]. Consider the Egyptian dresser as one of David's best, and the tiger maple drawer night stand as prime by Norm. Worst...haven't a clue! My hat is off to both these guys.

Kent E. Matthew

11-25-2007, 1:01 AM

Norm is a hell of a lot better than I am. So, I am going to shut up now.

Randal Stevenson

11-25-2007, 1:38 AM

[quote=Randal Stevenson;702131]You just hit on my pet peeve about Norm. We have NEVER got to see HIS shop! Probably never will as longs as he is paid/sponsered with tools, as it would actually show his preferences.

quote]

His own shop is shown in one of his books , about building his own house . But it's a photo before it was tooled up IIRC.

The un funding of PBS was really a boom for TOH and NYWS in many ways . They couldn't take any thing , tools , direct dollars etc , prefunding cut , and if you remember all the manf. tags where taped over , so you had to know what brand tool he was using. Which made it harder to get a like and kind tool unless you really knew tools well anyway.

It would be a show I'd watch IF they did a NYWS visit to Norm's personal shop. That would be interesting.

I watch pretty sporadically these days as his stuff is sort of the same old same old for me. But I do think he's done more for amateur wood working than most.

I will have to see about finding that book. Between Norm, the hardware store I worked at (for a short bit) and grew up in, and working on grandma's house (now mine), I caught the bug. But in a lot of respects, I prefer the early shows, because those "hand me down", etc. type of tools, are what I work with (and could afford). I saw/read/heard and interview where he talked about learning most from working with his father. I learned more from Norm, then I learned from my father (he made Afro engineering, seem like Hurst's castle). Now I teach my father.

Probably just because the people I know with $$$$$$$ for the Norm type shops, aren't into woodworking. I know more poor, functional woodworkers, and have a greater respect for them anymore (know what they work with).

Michael Schwartz

11-25-2007, 1:48 AM

I wouldn't call Norms work fine woodworking but I do think he is a bit more skilled than your everyday carpenter to say the least :rolleyes:

I think Norms Show is a solid example of woodworking with machinery. I think he does go a bit far with the use of composites, biscuits, and brad nails.

His methods are a good example of modern production methods. They are not an example of fine furniture making.

David Marks hands down does finer work, and I am assuming it is of a much more orriginal design.

I will give credit to Norm for the fact he is my biggest inspiration in woodworking. I watched his show in my early childhood and my mind has been set on furniture-making ever since. So I don't really care about the quality of his work because he does inspire people, and perhaps hopefully inspire many members of the next generation of woodworkers.

Bernhard Lampert

11-25-2007, 9:15 AM

First of all I not a Norm fan. I don't like his construction methods (staple guns on visible parts, never has to check squareness at glue-up, etc).

BUT I have to give him credit for one major accomplishment: Apparently he is making a good living from woodworking...more than I can say for myself, I have to keep my day job.

Cheers,
Bernhard

Gary Keedwell

11-25-2007, 9:36 AM

I am a Norm fan and my nose is not too high in the air to admit it.:) Norm worked as a carpenter so he knows what it is like to have a real job. He knows he has a great gig. He also knows to get a job done there are other employees besides himself. He is one of many that is needed to produce that show. Like Tom Brady of the Patriots, he knows that if all the people he works with don't do their jobs, he can't do his.
When he goes out to locations, do you think he does all the research and make all the plans? Of course not...there is staff people that takes care of all that. Also, to appeal to everyone, they have to come up with all kinds of projects. The show's longevity is proof of that.
Norm's show is what it is. It was not created to appeal to the advanced woodworker who strives to have his work in the Smithsonian. Shows like that would actually be boring to the masses, and probably have a short run like that other WW Marks.;)
Gary

Chris Barnett

11-25-2007, 9:46 AM

FWIW The Library of congress number for The New Yankee Workshop is 88-83986. Was a lucky find in a used book store a while back. Shows Norm's simple furniture of an earlier America.

Mike Heidrick

11-25-2007, 9:53 AM

That is a pretty badly designed piece of furniture. But that's what happens when you have a carpenter try to be a cabinetmaker.

Happens every time.

:rolleyes:

Jim Becker

11-25-2007, 9:55 AM

I will have to see about finding that book.

I believe it's out of print, but the title, is Norm Abram's New House published by Little Brown and the ISMB is 0-316-00487-1. A Google.com search shows that there may be copies available "out there".

I really enjoyed reading it as it showed a lot of insight into the man, his background and how he things. Professor Dr. SWMBO and I were also pleased that Norm and his family are also "bird people"...and our birds approved of that, too.

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a6/4e/17596230a8a09a8f86aff010._AA240_.L.jpg

Bill Wyko

11-25-2007, 10:04 AM

I look at it this way. If the only pieces that everyone seem to dislike are 2 or 3 of his works over 10+ years,. that's a pretty good track record. As for the comment that carpenters don't make good cabinetmakers. I disagree. I used to be a framer and I've never had a complaint about my cabinet work. Just more skills to add to the list. I also would say that he most likely doesn't decide what he builds for the show. Like David Marks, they had him submit 99 or so projects and the producers choose which make it and which make the chopping block. Nawm is AOK in my book. Over the years that shop has shown plenty of wear and tear so I'm sure it gets regular use. One last thing though. Someone, take his nailgun and hide it.:D

Mike Cutler

11-25-2007, 10:18 AM

That Cowboy furniture is pretty, uhh... questionable. It would look great in Frontierland at Disneyland though.:D

I have never seen Norm on TV, I don't own a TV, But I did meet him about 10-12 years ago in Boston. I didn't even know who he was at the time.
He seemed like a genuinly nice, down to earth person. Hard to knock the guy, or his success for me.
As for the level of difficulty of the pieces he makes on the show. Ask yourself this. If he was some making some intricately designed Newport Highboy, or other period piece. That would take 100's of shop hours to build. Would he have inspired more people, or turned more folks away from woodworking from the sheer complexity of such a piece?
If the task is too daunting. It can have the reverse effect. No one will even attempt to try their hand at woodworking
He makes projects that the "average person", with good motor skills, can reasonably expect to emulate. From that starting point a person can progress. The staples, brads and hot glue gun will be replaced with proper joints, clamps, and adhesives.
Ya' gotta learn to walk before you can run.

I like that black triangular piece myself personally.

Pat Germain

11-25-2007, 10:53 AM

I read the book about Norm's House. I also found it very good and very interesting.

People have been busting on Norm since NYW premiered. Go back and look at archives of the rec.arts.woodworking forum fifteen years ago and you'll find people criticizing Norm for his nail gun. I guess he was OK as long as he used only a hammer, nails and a framing saw on This Old House. As soon as he started making furniture, it seems he angered a lot of elitists. I think it's fine if people don't like Norm's style or methods. I also think it's elitist to say he's not a real woodworker or is just a "carpenter". To me, that suggests carpenters are low-level laborers. I disagree.

In today's world, I don't think it's possible to make a living making fine furniture. Very few people want to pay for all the labor it requires. David Marks is great, but he's more of an artist and, as I understand, his wife's money allowed him to persue his art while he had little or no income. I also think DJM has cranked out a few heinous examples, but that's just my opinion.

Paul Girouard

11-25-2007, 11:17 AM

[quote=Paul Girouard;702150]

I will have to see about finding that book. Between Norm, the hardware store I worked at (for a short bit) and grew up in, and working on grandma's house (now mine), I caught the bug. But in a lot of respects, I prefer the early shows, because those "hand me down", etc. type of tools, are what I work with (and could afford). I saw/read/heard and interview where he talked about learning most from working with his father. I learned more from Norm, then I learned from my father (he made Afro engineering, seem like Hurst's castle). Now I teach my father.

Probably just because the people I know with $$$$$$$ for the Norm type shops, aren't into woodworking. I know more poor, functional woodworkers, and have a greater respect for them anymore (know what they work with).

Randal PM me your address I'll send you my copy of the book.

Paul Girouard

11-25-2007, 11:24 AM

I've never heard of this Mark's fellow , I have to goggle him , he must be on a cable channel this ole carpenter / cabinetmaker can't afford :D

It's pretty tough to make a living off FWW-ing , a few do it , mainly they live or show their work in larger cities. And most that I know have either that well employed wife , or are on a second career and the base / basics of life are covered already.

Come on we all want Norm's shop admit it :) I'd love a 36" wide belt sander:cool: And a router for EVERY bit I owned:cool:

I look at Norm as one of me (carpenter's) that made it out :D

David Cramer

11-25-2007, 11:31 AM

I will admit that I am always have an opinion on Norm, but geez oh pete's, not a finewoodworker???? Has anyone who ever thought that seen the Highboy that he made? Not a finewoodworker? I strongly disagree and am always at a loss when someone posts something like that. Not the original poster, but a couple of the responses that have followed.

The guy absolutely builds it himself, and personally, I didn't need a webcam to verify it. But if you do, it's there to see plan as day. Dino is on the camera and Norm is building away. Yes, he does have help finishing "certain pieces", but he has admitted that.

How many woodworkers on this site can say they built something as nice and involved as the Highboy? Then for someone to say that's what you get when you have a carpenter try to be a finewoodworker is beyond puzzling. He's cut dovetail joints by hand, built a windsor chair, etc......not a finewoodworker.

Call me stupid, but I don't get it at all. Have the people who made those comments in this thread built something better, step forward and post a picture!!!!!! I for one would love to see it. It's a woodworking show and I for one love.

As far as ugly pieces, sure, there are some that aren't my favorite, but the execution of the project is what I care about anyways. That is strictly subjective anyways and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the question, but dear God, to say he's not a finewoodworker is a little off to me. Again, to those who posted the question, please post a picture of something better than the Highboy, I'd love to see it.

If he's not a finewoodworker, please tell me what he is. He built that Highboy and if it were me (I wish:)), I'd consider myself a finewoodworker, that's for sure. This post is not an attack, just kinda don't know where a couple of you guys are coming from, that's all. Please explain or pm me, because I am really curious.

Dave

Jim Becker

11-25-2007, 11:36 AM

[quote=David Cramer;702484Yes, he does have help finishing "certain pieces", but he has admitted that. [/quote]

I think that has to do a lot with "time"...we all know that finishing takes a lot of it and if Norm does have to sacrifice some small part of "hands-on", IMHO, that's the right place to do it if he must.

David Cramer

11-25-2007, 11:39 AM

I didn't mean it in a bad way Jim. I just meant that it is something that he does not do completely himself. Again, not a negative comment Jim, I just was setting the record straight:) I think the guy is a great woodworker, tv or not, but that's just my opinion:D

Dave

Cary Swoveland

11-25-2007, 12:57 PM

Norm's pieces are all gorgeous, at least compared to the projects seen on The Router Workshop.

Cary

Cliff Rohrabacher

11-25-2007, 1:20 PM

There are so many.

Jim Kountz

11-25-2007, 3:35 PM

If were talking about his ugliest work I would have to vote for the cowboy thingy too or that table made from the blackened oak.
I always love the Norm bashers, I would lay a dollar to a donut that most of them cant build a simple box and get it right thats why they bash others. Norm is a woodworker and carpenter to boot. You can be both, I am and so are others on this forum. To say that because you are a carpenter you cant make a good woodworker just shows ignorance to me. Thats like saying that a mechanic cant be a good machinist. Its apples and oranges. Both trades require different yet similar skill sets and if you have both, even better.
As far as Norm being a "fine woodworker" I feel there are so many different levels of skill that one can possess, its hard to blanket the masses and say "that guy is a master but that guy over there isnt". Thats just hard to say.
You have your "arteest" type woodworkers like David Marks, obviously a master as what he does but I really dont care for alot of the stuff he builds. I know its complicated and requires alot of skill but I just dont like some of it. Too artsy fartsy for me. And I really despise arts and crafts furniture. Its just my opinion mind you but to me its some of the ugliest stuff ever made.
But hey, thats just the way I see it!! LOL

Gary Keedwell

11-25-2007, 3:39 PM

Hey Jim, what do you like? :confused:

Gary

Jim Kountz

11-25-2007, 3:45 PM

Gary Keedwell

11-25-2007, 3:57 PM

Sorry Gary, I just read my post and realized I didnt really say did I? Im a Norm fan, Im just partial to the classic stuff I guess, period furniture, shaker and stuff like that. Dont get me wrong though it really bothers me somtimes to watch him drive a brad nail on the front of some of his pieces! Wish he wouldnt do that really!
:D LOL I was just goofing on ya Jim. We all have our different tastes. Alot of shaker fans here. I like Art & Crafts but not just the furniture. LOML really got involved involved in the whole era. Pottery, lamps, fixtures, bungalows etc. We used to get into it so much that when we watched a period movie like Green Mile, it would take 4 hours because we paused and rewound it so many times. LOL.

Gary

Alan Schaffter

11-25-2007, 5:21 PM

Interesting discussion-

Many folks are forgetting the title to the show "New Yankee Workshop" and the key words "New" and "Yankee". New meaning- modern-day and possibly new/novice woodworkers, using modern/new techniques and tools to make furniture in a Yankee and frugal way (Of course, the cost of all the tools adds up to more than frugal.) So, don't get upset when he uses MDF, pneumatic nailers, planers, wide belt sanders, etc. It is not "The Hand Tool Workshop" or the "Old World Craftsman Workshop" or any number of similar names. The show and projects are exactly what the name implies.

I think, in general, the NYW project complexity has increased and Norm's craftsmanship have improved over the years as has the ability of many of us. I think the NYW and TOH have contributed more than any other single factor to the growth of woodworking and the WW industry, including tool manufacturers and vendors including the Big Box stores, and even the proliferation of HGTV and similar shows.

As to ugliest project (frankly it is a personal issue- eye of the beholder thing)- there are a few- the Cowboy stuff is up there. One of my least favorites from the older shows was the Turkey Table

http://www.newyankee.com/photos/902.jpg

lowell holmes

11-25-2007, 5:55 PM

I thought the table he made from a sinker log was really ugly because of the color. :)

I didn't really appreciate the cowboy furniture either.

Tom Cowie

11-25-2007, 6:00 PM

sorry Norm I guess this proves that your only human too.:D

Tom

Ken Shoemaker

11-25-2007, 6:15 PM

nate hatfield

11-25-2007, 6:22 PM

Hey guys what time and channel can we catch your woodworking show on?.......... or don't you have one.

Norman Pyles

11-25-2007, 6:27 PM

Gary Keedwell

11-25-2007, 6:55 PM

If not for Norm, The Router Workshop, and Scott Phillips, I probably would not have started woodworking. I wonder how many others have been inspired to start woodworking, by at least one of them, or others on TV.
Back around 1990 or so, Normie was broadcast in my area early on Sunday mornings. Norm's easy going style and calm voice was a perfect fit for me and my first cup of coffee. I think if the Router show was on that early on Sunday morning I would have changed the station on my old 27" TV.:(:)

Gary

Thom Sturgill

11-25-2007, 8:07 PM

I've always heard that there were several 'traditional' routes to becoming a cabinetmaker and that being a finish carpenter was a very common one. One of the interesting things about woodworking is how many forms it takes. My father was a luthier and gunsmith/gun stocker. I learned woodworking and some metalworking in his basement shop. Not much on power tools, and most of his woodworking tools (besides a bandsaw and belt sander) were small hand-made carving tools. I know others that use only a lathe, or only a scroll saw.

I don't blame Norm for having come to cabinetry from carpentry, but it does show in his reliance on his pin nailer! As to his designs, most are copied from antiques with adaptations to modern tooling and materials, and sometimes to scaling. My main complaint would be the use of DARK stains.

I have learned a lot from him, and recently from watching David Marks, who's pieces are much more artistic.

Mike Langford

11-25-2007, 8:16 PM

I'm not a big Norm fan.

There are lots of people who have their hands on the work during the course of taping and he's the frontman.

Show biz.

Jeff (and other Norm bashers...)

Go to thewoodwhisperer.com then click on the "Archive" heading then locate and view Episode 24- David & Victoria Marks Interview (http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-24-david-marks-interview/)

Great interview with David where he speaks about his career and also gives a little insight as to what it took for him (and Norm too I suspect) to produce just a 20 minute :eek: woodworking show!!

David mentions that many times he's had other skilled craftsmen work on different portions of a shows projects (to his specs.) because he was busy with other aspects of the show......Norm builds all the projects for NYW as well as appears on TOH!.....IMO I think Norm does super fine woodworking!!

Bryan Berguson

11-25-2007, 8:37 PM

If not for Norm, The Router Workshop, and Scott Phillips, I probably would not have started woodworking. I wonder how many others have been inspired to start woodworking, by at least one of them, or others on TV.

He inspired me! If it weren't for The New Yankee Workshop, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be typing this post right now. :D I used to love to watch him on Saturday morning. I didn't like every project he built but I enjoyed watching him build them.

Bryan

Fred Voorhees

11-25-2007, 8:42 PM

God gave us two eyes, two hands, and one mouth. I suspect he wants us to use them in those proportions as well.

I think I'll just sit and watch Norms show with the respect he has "earned" over the last 17+ years of providing inspriation to us of little skill. I KNOW I will learn a techniqe or skill that will help me be a better woodworker.

I supect many of us are part of this forum because of him, not inspite of him.

I'd sure be embarrased for him to see this thread.

Ken

Ken, I couldn't have said it better! I would venture to say that thanks to Norm, our ranks have expanded and with that, so has the opportunities for better products and information out there due to our numbers. I know that besides my grandfather, my interest in woodworking has been mainly due to Norms inspiration. I think it is borderline blasphemy to even think negatively of Norm.

Todd Burch

11-25-2007, 9:32 PM

I used to enjoy watching Norm. I learned a lot. I haven't seen a show in years. From the era that I watched, the Turkey Table also stands out in my mind as being fugly. He obviously has since heard the answer to his question on that show "why did they call it a Turkey Table?" I yelled the answer at him every time I saw it. Duh.

I have respect for all the TV woodworkers, putting themselves out there and taking criticism from the armchair critics. I don't care for some of them, and even chuckle watching them.

I would have to say the worst TV woodworker I've seen was Bob Villa's guy "Riley" (I think). In one episode on some house restoration, I saw miscuts, really bad joinery, pneumatic nails shot and miss their target by inches (picture a bookcase and nailing through the side into the ends of the shelves, but totally missing the shelf - big time) and lots of blood. At the beginning of the show, his hand was good. After the 2nd commercial break, he had white gauze wrapped around it. By the end of the show, it was soaked through in blood and becoming unwrapped, like an mummy coming apart. I shuddered as I watched.

Last comment. I think the biggest disservice Russell has done was getting Minwax as a sponsor. That's just about the only finish Norm uses, and there are lots and lots of other finishes that the NYWS could demonstrate to its viewers. Minwax must be paying big bucks to hold that sponsor slot, and is obviously making big bucks from all the woodworkers buying their stuff.

If Norm makes a piece, and finishes it with a muddy Minwax pigment stain and topcoats it with Polyurethane - in my book, it ain't fine woodworking.

Todd

Mike Heidrick

11-25-2007, 10:27 PM

My tastes are different I guess. I really like the cowboy piece. I still have not figuresd out how he did all the detail work with the dremel though - they are pretty hard to control consistently. I really like Norm and currently the DirecTivo has 65 episodes of NYW on it and about 29 of WoodWorks. I am not a FWW but I think they both do some real fine woodworking. I am impressed that Norm makes all the projects twice - prototype and the one they shoot. I do hate all his brad use but that is personal taste again. His shop has been discussed in magazines and all his tools are listed on websites. Marks has an episode on his shop and tools.

Gary Keedwell

11-25-2007, 11:01 PM

If Norm makes a piece, and finishes it with a muddy Minwax pigment stain and topcoats it with Polyurethane - in my book, it ain't fine woodworking.

Todd
As been stated before, the show has to appeal to the masses. Any intermediate qualified woodworker could pick the show apart. If NYW really started to concentrate on minute details, they would definetely lose the audience.
One must also remember that the people that are watching the show at any given time is going to range from the beginner ( or one who hasn't even begun) to the advanced. To hold an audience with that range is like walking a tightrope, and I think the show's staff does an excellent job.
In closing...I'm sure that there are things done on the show that Norm would definetly change if it was his show. As far as finishing is concerned, I know guys who have been woodworking for over 20 years and don't know squat about it. As a matter of fact, alot of the finishing techniques that we know and read about online were basically mysteries 10-15 years ago, and are still mysteries to alot of seasoned woodworkers today.
Gary

Scott Kilroy

11-25-2007, 11:46 PM

I'm not a big Norm fan.

There are lots of people who have their hands on the work during the course of taping and he's the frontman.

Show biz.

I've got to take issue with this statement. Do you have anything to back that up you're comment? My brother-in law works pretty much next to the Ask This Old House set and from people he's met who work on both ATOH and NYW he's told me Norm does all of the NYW building, although the selection of what to make seems to be more based on the producer's guidance.

Scott Kilroy

11-26-2007, 12:03 AM

God gave us two eyes, two hands, and one mouth. I suspect he wants us to use them in those proportions as well.

I think I'll just sit and watch Norms show with the respect he has "earned" over the last 17+ years of providing inspriation to us of little skill. I KNOW I will learn a techniqe or skill that will help me be a better woodworker.

I supect many of us are part of this forum because of him, not inspite of him.

I'd sure be embarrased for him to see this thread.

Ken

I think it's kind of sad that this thread started in the first place. I always wanted to learn about woodworking but until I started watching NYW I never really thought I could do anything more advanced then the typical "HS shop class" spice rack. It's pretty easy to sit back and judge someone else's work when they've been in the public eye for so long however why not be a little more creative, ask people "what would you have done differently?", "What piece could be improved?"

I'll admit that the cowboy furniture wasn't my taste but I think his piece stands on it's own as a good example of that style, and as someone else mentioned it was also an example of working with leather and wood.

Gregory Lyons

11-26-2007, 12:08 AM

I owe Norm, as well as Bob & Rick from Router Workshop, and of course Roy (he of the calloused knuckes), for piquing my interest in WW. That being said; I'm not always crazy about Nahm's project choices, and I also don't always agree with his techniques. There are too many episodes where we visit so & so in such & such historical site and build a cheesy copy of whatever. And then we fill the damn thing full of nails and brads. I would never consider anything like the gilded mirror (blech!), but I guarantee that he can do it far better than I.

Anyway, I say this with the deepest love and respect for the above mentioned, and eagerly await the next installment...

...I'm sorry, I just got done re-reading 'The Fountainhead' and am feeling rather Howard Roarkey.

~g

Scott Kilroy

11-26-2007, 12:12 AM

I would love to be able to make furniture for a living and not have to rely on selling it to put food on the table. I have made allot of ugly furniture and not made a dime on it. Norm makes money on every piece he makes!!!!! something to think about..regards

With YouTube you could very easily live this dream, just start filming each thing you make, and as you're doing explain what exactly you're doing and why, oh and don't forget that you have no idea about the skill level of the people watching, and that anything you make will be criticized by every armchair quarterback.

Cody Colston

11-26-2007, 2:47 AM

I owe Norm, as well as Bob & Rick from Router Workshop...~g

I get too fascinated looking at that knot on the head of the Router Workshop guy. I miss a lot of the router work.

Gary Keedwell

11-26-2007, 8:02 AM

I get too fascinated looking at that knot on the head of the Router Workshop guy. I miss a lot of the router work.
I am embarrassed to say this but I also found myself looking at the poor guy's head. You would think that the people in charge would make him wear a hat or something so people could focus on what he was doing:o

Gary

Todd Burch

11-26-2007, 11:41 AM

The few times I watched the Router Workshop, I did notice the knot. Nothing the guy can probably do about it. No biggy for me.

What drove me away was the drone of the routers. It seemed like about 50% of the show was watching, and listening, to them route. Painful. And, several times I saw them do operations with the router, that while they could be done with the router, in my opinion, it was not the best approach. In my book, a router is a dangerous tool, and I use it when I need to use it, not when I can use it.

Todd

Gary Keedwell

11-26-2007, 12:06 PM

I think the point of the show is to demonstrate the versatility of the router. That being said, after many hours milling with a nice quiet Vertical Milling Machine,(Bridgeport) I find the router to be very annoying. It is very loud, messy and unforgiving, and I avoid it like the plague.:( But when you need it....your sure glad it is there. :>)
Gary

Jerry Olexa

11-26-2007, 12:54 PM

If Norm makes a piece, and finishes it with a muddy Minwax pigment stain and topcoats it with Polyurethane - in my book, it ain't fine woodworking.

Todd
Well said... I agree. Finishing IMHO is not Norm's forte'.

Gary Keedwell

11-26-2007, 12:58 PM

[

If Norm makes a piece, and finishes it with a muddy Minwax pigment stain and topcoats it with Polyurethane - in my book, it ain't fine woodworking.

Todd
Well said... I agree. Finishing IMHO is not Norm's forte'.
[/QUOTE]LOL Yea, Norm and about 80% of the woodworkers out there.:)
Gary

Darren Ford

11-26-2007, 3:04 PM

If I am not mistaken, Norm has said in the past that he uses the brads because he doesn't have the luxury of letting joints dry as long as they need to during assembly. Every show is shot in 2 days I think, so corners have to be cut.

Terre Hooks

11-26-2007, 3:48 PM

I'll go out on a limb and say that all of the folks here who bash Norm would choke like they had swallowed 3 chicken bones if they were put in front a camera to film them building a shoebox.

Michael Pfau

11-26-2007, 6:19 PM

I am in Cowboy country, a HUGE fan of Norm's but I would never have that thing he built in my house!!

Michael Gibbons

11-26-2007, 6:46 PM

Couple things to note:

1. Norm must have been doing something right all these years or they would have pulled him of the air. Corporate funding or not. Besides, a lot of folks think he's doing a geat job-me included.

2. I have no training in any field of any kind. So if I become a furniture maker, does that make me an outcast because I started late and have no classical cabinetmaking/furniture making training?

3. I think it's a neat idea that Norm doesn't have to do all the finishing. Besides, How would you like to watch him stain/polyurethane a peice for 5 minutes in a show? Like watching grass grow. He's also said he doesn't do all the finishing and also that it is his weak point in woodworking.

4. All you have to do is pick up a tool catalog or go online and you can figure out what tools he uses. Most companies have picked certain colors that are specific to their brands. Delta gey,Jet white,Powermatic mustard. General green,etc..

5. My least favorite design is the Turkey Table. By the way he found that table in a private collection. I did find however,that the turning and cutting of the legs were quite complex ( to me ). So the episode came in handy.

6. I really like the "historicals" as they call them which are the places that they find the ideas. Not all projects are exact repro's. Some have to be modified for size or materials to fit the needs. Norm also has a major say as to what goes on the measured drawings. It's his dimensions that are put down after ne figures out what is needed.

7. If you want a decent look at his shop go to his website and go to the tour the shop link, then to panoramic view.

....Mike

Curt Harms

11-26-2007, 7:16 PM

I'll go out on a limb and say that all of the folks here who bash Norm would choke like they had swallowed 3 chicken bones if they were put in front a camera to film them building a shoebox.

I think You're pretty safe on that limb, Terre;)

Joe Mioux

11-26-2007, 8:18 PM

You just hit on my pet peeve about Norm. We have NEVER got to see HIS shop! Probably never will as longs as he is paid/sponsered with tools, as it would actually show his preferences.

I wonder how many of the tools used in the early years were Norm's?

There is a list of all tools that have appeared on NYW. the list even shows the episodes they were used. Refer to the woodbutcher(dot)net.

it's actually kind of fun reminisicing...

joe

Jeff Norri

11-27-2007, 1:26 AM

I am not sure why Norm always get bashed for having so many nice tools???

He gets them for free guys! I pay for mine and I have a Unisaw, 8" jointer, lunch box planer, 12" CMS, 17" DP, 17" BS, a few routers, drills, sanders and what not. The NYW is a nice shop, but I know there is more then guy here that could rival it.

Jeff Norri

11-27-2007, 1:27 AM

PS can you tell I am a Norm fan? I just looked at my own post and saw old Normy on it! I forgot that was my Avtar

Michael Gibbons

11-27-2007, 8:29 AM

A few more notes;

1. Norm had a few articles written about him.
a. Fine Woodworking, March/April 1993. You need to buy the article online.
b. Popular Woodworking, August 2005
c. Woodworkers Journal, April 2007

2. Norm states that he would really like to add more hand tool work into the show but there is not enough time.

3. Folks bash Norms tools but he has evolved just like the rest of us. Just take a look at his shop in the first episode, "The Medicine Cabinet". His shop was pretty thin.

4. The only things he has that the average joe woodworker probably won't is the wide belt sander and the moulding machine.

5. Norm also states that the show was not meant to be a complete course on woodworking. It was meant to appeal to a wide audience and show them some simple projects that could be done with some basic "tools".

6. I have all 7 books.

Barry Beech

11-27-2007, 11:28 AM

I will just say that I am a FAN!!!

Darren Ford

11-30-2007, 9:12 AM

As luck would have it, I found a few minutes last night to browse through the shows my Tivo had recorded for me, and guess what, the Cowboy furniture episode was there.

I thought Norm did a pretty good job at reproducing the piece, it was just a horribly ugly piece to start with (in my opinion). I did think that there were several design elements worth noting, the relief routing was cool (the technique, not the content), as was the leather top. Its just the whole package was not to my taste at all.

My problem with that program was not the ugly inspiration, but the fact that it was so rushed it was impossible for me to really keep up with what was happening. He spent way too much time at the lodge. Definitely not one of his better ones.

Danny Thompson

11-30-2007, 9:48 AM

Whoa. Hold on there! Norm didn't design this piece. This, like many of his projects, was a an antique reproduction.

I don't like it. Doesn't fit my tastes. Truth is, I don't like the design of most of the antiques he reproduces. But I always find the shows interesting because I always learn a little about how things were done in the past and I learn or reinforce a few techniques that are applicable to more modern work.

Take this one for example, it had some interesting challenges (rosettes, curved door).

I'll keep watching until I've seen them all, that's for sure.

Danny Thompson

11-30-2007, 9:52 AM

LOL. He said, " . . . the other Jewish carpenter."

Gary Whitt

11-30-2007, 9:57 AM

I don't like it. Doesn't fit my tastes. Truth is, I don't like the design of most of the antiques he reproduces.
Same here.
I pretty much don't like most of what Norm re-produces.
But...... Norm has gotten a lot of people started in woodworking.

Ken Shoemaker

11-30-2007, 1:29 PM

This thread is like a government program.... It just won't die!!!

Anyway, I think the NYW is more about the demonstration of "TECHNIQUEs" rather than the "PRODUCT". We would learn very little if all Norm or David made were dados and rebates.

So maybe we should throttle down on the finished products and focus on the efforts it takes to make'em.

My humble submission, Ken

Rick Cicciarelli

11-30-2007, 3:05 PM

Lot of Norm bashers in this thread....as it has been mentioned, I am sure he doesn't have 1st choice on what is built....but still, I remember watching Norm when I was quite a bit younger, and I attribute much of my interest in woodworking to his shows and seeing what can be done. I am STILL striving to put together a shop like his some day. I'm slowing gathering the equipment...I just need to buy a different house with an outbuilding that I can convert into shop space :D
Thanks Norm for inspiring a new generation of woodworkers!!!

Gary Keedwell

11-30-2007, 3:15 PM

[Ken Shoemaker;707119]This thread is like a government program.... It just won't die!!!

Yea Ken, Like a "Temporary Tax" it won't go away. LOL I might be different but I always concentrated on Norm's methods and techniques more then what his project he was making.
Same when a new magazine come in the mail. LOML goes right to the pictures of each project...I on the other hand, will first gloss over new tools or methods.
Gary

Danny Thompson

11-30-2007, 3:17 PM

Focus . . .

The question is, "What is the ugliest piece of furniture Norm has made?" NOT "What is the ugliest thing you can say about Norm?"

Christopher Pine

11-30-2007, 8:56 PM

I recall an episode many years ago when he made a coffee table from sevaral old pallets he salvaged. Then a smoked glass top layed on the top... I did nto think it looked very nice.

I also have never understood norm bashing... commenst like " what he does is not fine woodworking" Well excuse him for enjoying woodworking and us common peasants having the nerve to try this gentlemans hobby! :)

Chris