Shop Service Panel Question

[Barry Londrigan]

Hello Freinds

I have a quick question about mounting a panel in my garage. I installed a "220 amp pass-through panel" under my meter outside. It feeds a 100 amp panel inside via the pas-through lugs and will be servicing another 100 amp panel in the garage through a 100 amp breaker installed inside this panel outside.

The question I have is when I bring the feed inside the garage it will be at foot level and then come up. The idea I have is to mount the panel upside down so that the wire can go directly into the panel. All circuit wiring will then come out of the bottom, go up into the attic and then feed wherever I want throughout the garage. I figure this was the cleanest route to get to all the walls, around doors etc and then bring wirind down to appropriate level for an "in-wall" mounting of all boxes. Is this kosher? Can the box be mounted upside down? I may run conduit out of panel and into attic...any ideas on that? Thank you for your input!

Barry

[Jim Becker]

Hmmm...I seem to remember someone posting about mounting their panel upside-down here at SMC some time ago. I would think it doesn't matter as long as the cover can be mounted properly but look forward to the "real" answer!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Barry,

If I was in your shoes, I'd contact my local electrical inspector. Regardless of how difficult it may make things, I always do things to code or better. I know of folks locally who haven't and when they went to sell a home, a home inspector caught the problem and informed the local building codes folks. It's almost always easier and cheaper to do it right the first time.

JMHO.

[James Waters]

\
The question I have is when I bring the feed inside the garage it will be at foot level and then come up. The idea I have is to mount the panel upside down so that the wire can go directly into the panel.
Barry


Are you running the panel feed through conduit? Either way there is usually a large knockout at the bottom of the panel as well so that a large connector can be used. Run the cable into the bottom and bring one leg and the nuetral up one side and the other leg up the opposite side.

Make sure you leave pleanty og extra cable to make "long swooping loops" into the main lugs at the top of the panel. If you ever have a problem (burn one of the lugs out, etc.) and have to remake the main connections you can simply loosen the wires and remove a short amount and hook it back up and not have to pull new feeders back in.


I did electrical work for several years and I would personally mount the panel upright and not upside down. The post about talking to the local inspector (as that job should require a permit in most areas) would be a good bet also. Especially if you are not sure. Nothing worse than doing a job and then either having to re-do it for the inspector or at some point down the road when you might sell your house, etc.

Just my 2 cents.....hope this helps.

JW

[Dixon Peer]

Barry,

If I was in your shoes, I'd contact my local electrical inspector. Regardless of how difficult it may make things, I always do things to code or better. I know of folks locally who haven't and when they went to sell a home, a home inspector caught the problem and informed the local building codes folks. It's almost always easier and cheaper to do it right the first time.

JMHO.

Not to mention the potential liability of doing things that aren't up to code and not permitted, not inspected, etc. If there's a fire sometime in the future and it is traced to electrical work done by unlicensed person(s) without a permit and thus not inspected, you could be in deep do-do.

[Wade Lippman]

It is okay if the breakers move side to side. If they move up and down it is not acceptable; as then they would be down when closed, which is the normal position for open.

[Rick Gifford]

I mounted mine "upside down" with the lead coming in from the bottom and main breaker at the bottom. It is square D with side to side movement breakers.

My step father assisted me and he is a retired electrician, still licensed and up with our local codes. No problems here. Doesnt hurt to ask though before you do it. You might get suprised if you dont.

[Jim Becker]

I forgot to mention earlier that the SD subpanel in the addition is mounted with the leads coming in from the bottom. I have no idea if that is upside down or not, however...I didn't look that close.

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim, does it have a main breaker in it? If so and it is at the bottom of the box, it's upside down. I also seem to remember the thread where someone here did this type of wiring. I do know one person that used to be on the Creek that has 2 boxes, both upside down. It wasn't a problem for his area.
If nothing else, I'd do as others have said and ask the local code people. No matter if it is "ok" by code, if they don't like it, you could still have trouble later on. Jim.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, a subpanel doesn't get a main breaker...that's back at the main panel.

[Jim O'Dell]

My bad! I was in the train of thought of breaker boxes in general and didn't think about it being a sub panel. Jim.

[Paul Girouard]

Jim, a subpanel doesn't get a main breaker...that's back at the main panel.



That is not always the case. A sub panel can have a main breaker as well. So that's a "it depends" thing.

[David G Baker]

Some boxes are designed to be used in both directions. I have a couple of sub panels that are wired where the input is in the base and the output is through the top. The panels are not upside down but are wired that way. I do not know if there is any code that dictates the mounting direction.
On the outside of my house I have a 200 amp panel with a 200 amp main breaker and 2ea 100 amp breakers that feed two separate 100 amp sub panels in my basement. I had it done this way so I could do wiring on my house and still have power from one of the breaker panels. Each of the 100 amp panels have a 100 amp breaker that cuts power to the individual panels. Not sure if they would be called "main" breakers because when I work in the panels I kill the 100 amp outside breaker. It is overkill but I feel much safer with no power feeding the panel when working in it.

[Paul Girouard]

On the outside of my house I have a 200 amp panel with a 200 amp main breaker and 2ea 100 amp breakers that feed two separate 100 amp sub panels in my basement. I had it done this way so I could do wiring on my house and still have power from one of the breaker panels. Each of the 100 amp panels have a 100 amp breaker that cuts power to the individual panels. Not sure if they would be called "main" breakers because when I work in the panels I kill the 100 amp outside breaker. It is overkill but I feel much safer with no power feeding the panel when working in it.

David I have almost exactly the same set up here at my place , only one sub panel CB feeds my shop. So we both have a lot of 100 amp C/B's.

[Rob Will]

Yes, it is ok to mount a panel with the main at either the top or bottom.
Personally, I try to avoid "upside down" but I have no reason other than asthetics. Of greater importance is the issue of bonding.

At the first point of service (first distribution panel), the ground and neutral are bonded to the case. This location also gets two ground rods driven 5' apart.

All panels beyond that point are considered "sub panels". These must be fed with a separate ground and neutral wire. Never bond the ground (equipment ground) and neutral (load carrying grounded conductor) together in a sub panel. The neutral bus is insulated from the case.

Rob

[Mark Rios]

Okay fellas, I just went and looked up this issue in the NEC Codebook. Under Mounting Panels it says, "If you mount a panel upside down all of the electricity could run out all over the floor creating a hazard".

Pretty much says it all, I think.










:D:D:D

[David G Baker]

Mark,
That happened to me once. I had to call the NEC for advice and it took me months to clean up all of the sparks and hazards when I followed their directions. I follow code when ever possible and get advice from experts if I have a question about interpretation or something I want to do electrically.

Paul,
Yup, I have 8 100amp breakers and 5 sub panels.

Rob,
The sub panel rule applies unless you run 220 volt power to a detached building using two hot legs, one neutral and no ground. The detached building panel no longer qualifies as a sub panel and is more like a main panel that gets bonded and needs 2 ground rods.

[Steve Mellott]

Yes - subpanels can be mouinted "upside down". My subpanel has a 100 amp main breaker and the wording "main breaker" is stamped on the top right side up and on the bottom upside down.

Steve

[glenn bradley]

I'm upside down as well. Did this for entrance ease and door position. As for all the electricity running out, I have that problem with data cables in the computer room now and then if they are damaged. It is a pain tying to sweep up all those little ones and zeros.

[Jim O'Dell]

I'm upside down as well. Did this for entrance ease and door position. As for all the electricity running out, I have that problem with data cables in the computer room now and then if they are damaged. It is a pain tying to sweep up all those little ones and zeros.

And you better hope you don't have a "Windows" system if you don't get all the ones and zeros back into the line! I hear Mac doesn't have that problem. Hmmm...Jim.

[Rob Will]

Mark,
That happened to me once. I had to call the NEC for advice and it took me months to clean up all of the sparks and hazards when I followed their directions. I follow code when ever possible and get advice from experts if I have a question about interpretation or something I want to do electrically.

Paul,
Yup, I have 8 100amp breakers and 5 sub panels.

Rob,
The sub panel rule applies unless you run 220 volt power to a detached building using two hot legs, one neutral and no ground. The detached building panel no longer qualifies as a sub panel and is more like a main panel that gets bonded and needs 2 ground rods.

David, I agree. Thanks for the clarification.
Rob

[David G Baker]

Jim,
I didn't know that Mac used ones and zeros? Hmmm! I thought that Windows Vista eliminated all of the ones so they could compete with Mac. Tee Hee.
If Vista doesn't get any better I may be Driving a Mac before too long.