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Scott Shepherd
11-22-2007, 9:36 AM
Thought this might be of interest with black Friday looming and all the great deals out there. I have an older Garmin GPS that's outdated. Cost $75 to update it, and I decided just to get a new unit, as there were many on sale for $150 (from $250). I figured I'd rather put the $75 towards a new unit than upgrade the old one.

So I decided to give TomTom a try. I've had it for a few days now and problems are becoming very apparent that I've seen no one talk about, even in stores at sales pitches.

On the Garmin, no matter where you are, you can search for any place by name. Looking for a place to eat, it's all there. Looking for a store, it's all there. Very inclusive.

On the TomTom system, it doesn't have all that. For instance, I decided to let it take me to a camera store that's been there for 20 years or so. I type the name in and get nothing. I type in the word "Camera" and get nothing. I type in a commonly used word for companies in this area. Not a single name came up. Hummm.....something is wrong.

Next day, driving out at lunch, sitting at a stop light in front of a McDonalds and hit the "show restaurants near here" and it shows McDonalds, but many miles away. That store has been there for at least 30 years, yet it's not listed. Granted, it may have decided McDonalds wasn't a restaurant worthy of eating at, but that's another story.

So I contact them (all based in the UK), so it's all via email. I ask them how to get the stores and restaurants to come up. They tell me via email that there are two ways. One is to get the stores to register with them, and then they will be included, and the second is to manually input them all myself.

What? You are kidding, right? So I'm supposed to anticipate where I might want to stop along a route that I've never been on before and manually enter all those places? I'm supposed to anticipate when I might need to stop and have a flat fixed and enter possibly places? I'm supposed to anticipate where I'll need an automotive repair place and manually enter the info myself? I'm supposed to sit down with a phone book in my area and manually enter every business in the phone book that I might possibly use in the future?

I honestly don't get it. I was ready for a change from Garmin, but this isn't quite the change I was looking for. Fortunately, I have two weeks to return it for a full refund, which I will be doing this weekend.

So just a little heads up to anyone looking at the TomTom units- they don't have the information you'd think they should. They do offer restaurant and shopping downloads that are supposed to add to it, but it's only 20,000 shops nationwide, and with companies like Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, etc. out there, that 20,000 isn't anything other than a handfull of chains.

If you are typing in an address, it appears to work fine, but if you only know the name of where you plan on going, then you're screwed.

Save your money folks.

Jerry Clark
11-22-2007, 9:54 AM
Thanks for the "Heads-UP" I was really considering a Tom Tom- because the price-:) Now I will look at others!:rolleyes:

Cliff Rohrabacher
11-22-2007, 10:16 AM
OnStar and Google and Yahoo and Mapquest all are entirely incapable of finding my home.

I wonder if Garmen is any better.

Every one places you about 5 miles down the road in another town.

Scott Shepherd
11-22-2007, 10:44 AM
Cliff, it would probably be the same, as Google, Yahoo, MSN, all use the same mapping as Garmin and Magellen. There are two commonly used mapping systems, NavTeq and TeleAtlas. Garmin and Magellen use NavTeq which is said to be the best for the USA, and TomTom uses TeleAtlas which is said to be better in Europe.

Here's a link to the differences :

http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2006/07/navteq_vs_teleatlas_which_one.php

Bryan Rocker
11-22-2007, 11:01 AM
I purchased one of the Garmin® Nüvi® 200

before I went on a trip back east. It worked like a champ. While sitting in my hotel room I looked for eating places close and it came up with a ton of them. Is it perfect? No, the option of telling me vocally to turn on such and such street would be nice but other than that its good to go. It has yet to not find a place I was looking for. It may not be a top end but it is well worth the money. The route recalculation worked well. It has seen more service than I expected it to.....

Bryan

Kevin L. Pauba
11-22-2007, 11:12 AM
I just saw yesterday that google has a new feature that lets you move their markers. I just did it to my residence and moved it from across the street to my front porch. If you move it more than some value (I think it was 100 meters), it won't show immediately but they have an administrator review it in a day or two.

Jim Becker
11-22-2007, 11:15 AM
The issue isn't limited to Tom-Tom devices...listings for stores, restaurants, etc., are all by subscription. Businesses pay to be listed. Garmin and Magellan have the larger part of the market along with the units built into vehicles, so it's understandable that there are more POI listings.

There is also variability in the routing logic among various units and manufacturers. I won a Pioneer AVIC-51 about a year and a half ago in a raffle and thought, great, one for Professor Dr. SWMBO to use. Not! It couldn't even find our house despite inputing the correct zip code...it thought we lived about 150 miles away. Then I won a low-end Magellan in another raffle earlier this year. Better than the Pioneer, but nothing as good as the unit in my Toyota Highlander Hybrid. That unit (and it better considering the cost...) has very rarely failed to find an address. There have been some errors on POI, but in many cases, it's because something went out of business or moved since it was put in the database. But even with that premium device, there are a lot of POI not in the listings because those businesses didn't anti-up to be included.

Tim A. Mitchell
11-22-2007, 10:27 PM
This comes down to the mapping company that they use. Garmin usis Navtec, and is signed on with them until 2015. Tom Tom uses Tele Atlas. Navetec has done a better job of mapping. They do actually drive the routes with multiple cameras to see the surrounding businesses.

In the GPS investment world, TA is though of to be a second rate mapping company, and the Navtec to be the better. This is partly why Garmin is the better of the manufactures. They also have the edge on the cell phone "GPS", as the cells do not use satalite, and are slower to recalculate a route than a dedicated unit.

Buy Garmin this season! (It will also help the stock price, and thus my investments.)

Rick Gibson
11-22-2007, 11:10 PM
I've had the tom tom for about 6 months and am very happy with it. We have 4 small restaurants in a town of 900 and on a good day 2 of them will only seat 15 people, they are all listed. I guess it depends on where you are. I mainly use it for directions when I go to the city and it has always got me where I wanted to go. It has turn by turn voice directions. The one thing it doesn't have I would have liked is MP3 playback.

Maybe the Brits are still upset with you guys about the Boston tea party:)
and it's their subtle way of getting even.

Jon Lanier
11-23-2007, 12:48 AM
I really don't travel outside of Ohio... thus I don't need one. I think it is safer that way.

Scott Shepherd
11-23-2007, 9:55 AM
Just a couple more points here. I have an old Garmin Street Pilot 2310 that cost about $1K when I bought it. It virtually has the entire yellow pages on it. I'm positive all those people didn't pay to be listed, as I know some small business owners who are listed and they were never contacted. So at some point, no one paid to be listed on the Garmin. Not sure if that changed or not.

I have had a couple of conversations with TomTom now and the unit is heading back for a refund today. Glad the guy mentioned "If you don't like it, we'll give you a full refund" before we walked out the door.

On TomTom's website, it lists a downloadable package of 20,000 stores. They consist of these stores :


Best Buy US
Best Buy Canada
BJ's Wholesale
Brookstone
Circuit City
Costco
Fry's
Future Shops
Office Depot
Office Max
Pep Boys
Radio Shack
Sam's Club
Sharper Image
Staples
Target
Tweeter
Wal-MartHardly an all inclusive list. Last email I got from them was that I could contact a 3rd party Point of Interest Provider and get more POI's. I went to the site, and here's a couple of random bits of information. They have, for the USA, 15 Pizza Huts across the entire USA, 1 Vet, 29 Targets, 64 Home Depots, 0 Lowes, 0 Hardware Stores, 10 coffee shops, 1 campsite. All those listed are free downloads by a 3rd party POI provider.

I guess it all depends how you use your GPS. If you put in addresses and go there, then you'd be fine with the TomTom. However, if you are like me, and often know the name of the place you want to go, not the address, then you'd probably stuggle a lot with the TomTom.

I also looked at a Magellan Maestro and it was said to have the same issues. The higher end Magellan units have over 4 million points of interest, yet the lower end models only have 750,000 nationwide. So there is a lot of info left off. The Garmin Nuvi's seem to have close to 6 million Points of Interest.

They actually posted a guide some time yesterday. Maybe they saw my post :) It's called "Don't buy the wrong GPS on Black Friday". It's also a killer site with a load of information and reviews.

http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2007/11/dont_buy_the_wrong_gps_on_blac.php

Dave Lehnert
11-23-2007, 2:51 PM
purchased a TomTom one 3rd edition GPS. (To get me to the saw mill) Reg $250. on sale for $229. had a 10% off coupon. = $206.10. $100 rebate takes it to $106.10. Then the store offered a $50 gift certificate good on anything in the store with purchase. (it's a one stop shopping store so I can get grocery) So $56.10 for a GPS ROCKS!!!!
I like the tom tom a lot. Guess you have to weigh what you need it for vs. cost. For what I paid I got a great deal. In the new Tom Tom you can make corrections and share them with other users on line.
My Tom Tom even list a little bar and grill near my house. People pass it everyday and still don’t know it’s there. Point is with ANY system you will find mistakes. It will be impossible for them to list everything
If looking for a GPS I sure would give the Tom Tom a look.

The link above is a great GPS info page. It list 13 models of garmins to avoid but only two Tom Tom’s ( all older models)

Scott Shepherd
11-23-2007, 8:31 PM
Dave, that's the same unit I bought. I think you're over selling it by a long shot. Yes, you can enter stores yourself. Now, explain how i'm supposed to travel with it? If I'm traveling to Chicago, do I need to get a phone book and map out and manually enter all the places I might like to eat on the route I might take?

Trust me, if you've not used one that has all that info on it, then you don't know what you're missing. Some people may use it differently than I do, you may be one of them. If you're the type of person who will be driving along and say "show me where the nearest Arby's is", then you'll be out of luck with the TomTom. At least mine doesn't list any Arby's.

On the other hand, the Garmin lists them all, along with sorting by food type.

Also, you mentioned it was mostly Garmin units listed to avoid and only two TomTom. You might want to read why they were units to avoid. Not because they were crappy models or their maps were bad, or because the points of interest were poor, but because they are older units and the technology in them has come up several levels and they didn't want you to get stuck with a brand new unit that still uses the older technology (which still works better than the TomTom on POI's). It's the lack of the SiRF chipset (which helps it cover better in areas with tall buildings, etc.) in all those models that's made them be on the list. Garmin would naturally have more on the list, since they have a ton more models that have been out for years before TomTom ever hit the states. Naturally they will have more legacy products, just based on the number of models they offer and have offered over the years.

If you look at the Top Rated items, Garmin has 4 out of the 5 and TomTom didn't make the top 6 or 7 listed.

Bob Genovesi
11-24-2007, 9:05 PM
Thanks for the heads up!

I just bought the Garmin Nuvi 650.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/BobbyG53/Garminnuvi650.jpg

Rick Gibson
11-24-2007, 10:00 PM
"show me where the nearest Arby's is", then you'll be out of luck with the TomTom. At least mine doesn't list any Arby's.

Scott I have the Tom Tom one and just out of curiosity I took your example punched in Chicago and under points of interest I looked for Arby's. It listed 24 of them. Don't know why yours doesn't list any. This thing of mine even lists the 4 small restaurants in Bothwell pop. (900) and I can be sure none of these people paid to be listed.

Mine works for me, I'll keep it.

Tim A. Mitchell
11-25-2007, 12:52 AM
I think you have made a good choice. I have heard a lot of good about the newer Nuvis. I use a handheld for my uses though. Not only do I use mine for on-road, but also for Geocaching (.com), hiking, mountain biking, and skiing. Lots of fun.

Phil Thien
11-25-2007, 1:09 AM
Scott I have the Tom Tom one and just out of curiosity I took your example punched in Chicago and under points of interest I looked for Arby's. It listed 24 of them. Don't know why yours doesn't list any. This thing of mine even lists the 4 small restaurants in Bothwell pop. (900) and I can be sure none of these people paid to be listed.

Mine works for me, I'll keep it.

Could this be a regional thing? Perpahs TomTom/Garmin purchase compiled lists (like from phone companies) of businesses, but in some areas the proper directories have not been added?

Scott Shepherd
11-25-2007, 8:53 AM
Rick, not sure, but all I can go by is what I have to look at and what TomTom customer service tell me. They tell me that the listing are very limited and I need to enter them all myself.

One place that comes up all over the place is a place called BurgerBusters. It says it's a 1/2 dozen of them within a few miles, yet I've lived here my entire life and have never heard of, or seen one. If you take the route to any of them, they are always something that's been there for 20 years. Not sure what's up with that. I'm glad your system works good for you. Wish it worked for me, but I can't see trying to manually update POI's myself by the 1000's, when that technology already exists.

Gary Keedwell
11-25-2007, 10:53 AM
We bought a magellan at our local warehouse store and didn't like it at all. We brought it back and exchanged it for the Garmin 350 and think it is the greatest little gadget. We even have a knickname for it: the "satellite lady". She tells us when were approaching our turn and tells us the name of the street. When we miss our turn she doesn't get rattled..she just re-calculates and gets us back on track. No matter where we are....we just press "home" and she just guides straight to our driveway. Wonderful lady!!!:)
Gary

Scott Shepherd
11-25-2007, 2:14 PM
Good point Gary, if I understand it right, there are two types, not sure what the first one is called, but the second one is "Text to speech". On most units, it will say "Turn left" or "Turn left in 300 yards", but with text to speech, it says "Turn left onto Main Street in 300 yards" or something like that (it includes the name of what you are supposed to turn on).

It's an option to be aware of if you are shopping for one and that interests you.

Darren Ford
11-25-2007, 7:04 PM
2 obsevations:

1. From the reviews I have read, TeleAtlas has caught up in the past couple of years, and the differences are supposedly insignificant.

2. I am currently considered a TomTom Go720, and I looked at the specs for it last night. 6 million POIs. Not sure why TomTom support would have said only 20k, unless its just that particle model and version.

Randy Denby
11-26-2007, 9:26 AM
I've got the Garmin Zumo 550. It comes with a car mount and bike mount. It has bluetooth and will automatically download my razer phone book and act as a speaker phone. Its great on the bike, as it lets me know who is calling...altho I never answer/call back until I'm stopped. It saves your tracks, which is great for riding in the boonies . Also has MP3 and can be utilized as an XM reciever.

Dave Lehnert
11-27-2007, 5:21 PM
Dave, that's the same unit I bought. I think you're over selling it by a long shot. Yes, you can enter stores yourself. Now, explain how i'm supposed to travel with it? If I'm traveling to Chicago, do I need to get a phone book and map out and manually enter all the places I might like to eat on the route I might take?

Trust me, if you've not used one that has all that info on it, then you don't know what you're missing. Some people may use it differently than I do, you may be one of them. If you're the type of person who will be driving along and say "show me where the nearest Arby's is", then you'll be out of luck with the TomTom. At least mine doesn't list any Arby's.

On the other hand, the Garmin lists them all, along with sorting by food type.



Also, you mentioned it was mostly Garmin units listed to avoid and only two TomTom. You might want to read why they were units to avoid. Not because they were crappy models or their maps were bad, or because the points of interest were poor, but because they are older units and the technology in them has come up several levels and they didn't want you to get stuck with a brand new unit that still uses the older technology (which still works better than the TomTom on POI's). It's the lack of the SiRF chipset (which helps it cover better in areas with tall buildings, etc.) in all those models that's made them be on the list. Garmin would naturally have more on the list, since they have a ton more models that have been out for years before TomTom ever hit the states. Naturally they will have more legacy products, just based on the number of models they offer and have offered over the years.

If you look at the Top Rated items, Garmin has 4 out of the 5 and TomTom didn't make the top 6 or 7 listed.

Over selling????? I am just making the point that the unit is not as bad as it may sound. I am sure the Garman is a great unit. It may very well be the best unit in the world. But look at what we are comparing. The Garman the person listed above is over $400. The Tom Tom one 3rd can be had for much less than $100 with Christmas deals going on. I have used the tom Tom a lot the last few days and am very impressed. Feel I got a very great deal. I personally have no reason to wish for a more expensive unit. My opinion only and no need to take it so personal.
I just looked up Arby's on my Tom Tom and it displays 22 Arby's within 10 miles from where I'm setting now. I can only think of 3 or 4.

Chris Padilla
11-27-2007, 6:22 PM
OnStar and Google and Yahoo and Mapquest all are entirely incapable of finding my home.

I wonder if Garmen is any better.

Every one places you about 5 miles down the road in another town.

You paid someone off real good, Cliff! I'd love to be not found it this day and age of everything at your fingertips...would be nice to be "off line" again! ;)

Scott Shepherd
11-27-2007, 7:55 PM
Dave, I'm not taking anything personal, I was simply pointed out that you noted that Garmin had a lot of units on the "do not buy list", and that TomTom didn't, and from your words, it appeared as if you were trying to say that the TomTom wasn't on the list because it was better. I was simply pointing out that your observation was correct, but perhaps not for the reason you implied. I could obviously have read your intent wrong, as it's very hard to read the written word and understand intent. If I misread your intention, I apologize.

I also agree, you can't compare a $450 (retail) Garmin to a $250 (retail) TomTom or anything else. Even the low end entry level Garmin units list less POI's than the higher end ones. I also said about a dozen times that if you use it differently than I do, it may very well be all you need and work like a charm.

My intention with this posting was to at least make people aware before black Friday that most of the units on sale are on sale for a reason. Either discontinued models or stripped down POI's. If anyone got that message, then I accomplished my goal.

I'm still researching them myself, for a family member gift, and it's probably one of the most confusing items to compare out there that I have run into. No one wants to list the important things and you really have to dig deep to find details about all the units.

I really liked the ease of use of the TomTom, just wish it had 6 million POI's :)

David G Baker
11-27-2007, 11:10 PM
I am waiting for the Garmin 350 goes on sale for under $300 from a reliable dealer. Hopefully it will do so prior to Christmas. From the the research I have done, the 350 is the one that will best fit my needs.