Papa Griz and Gass Duke it out!

[Dan Lautner]

Over on wood net there is a Saw Stop thread with some great insight into the product. Both Steve Gass and Papa Grizz are duking it out. It is intersting to note that papa Griz was very intersted making a TS with the Saw Stop.

Dan

[Dave Falkenstein]

Dan - you got my interest up enough to go to Woodnet and read the thread. I found it in Woodworking Power Tools, and it is titled, "SAWSTOP on "BIG IDEA" last night". Actually I skimmed the thread and read the posts back and forth between Steve Gass and PapaGrizzly. I'd hardly call a disagreement on whether the royalty fee they discussed several years ago was 10% or 15% "duking it out". But I agree that it is an interesting discussion.

Update - 6 hours later - Looks like the exchange is heating up a bit now!

[Mike Heidrick]

Too be honest, for a sawstop thread, it is really tame IMO.

[Lewis Cobb]

Over on wood net there is a Saw Stop thread with some great insight into the product. Both Steve Gass and Papa Grizz are duking it out. It is intersting to note that papa Griz was very intersted making a TS with the Saw Stop.

Dan


Almost as exciting as a Germany .vs. Brazil soccer match !

[Todd Jensen]

Thanks for the directions to the link; I had no idea a riff existed surrounding the SawStop. That said, after reading the volleys, I have lost a touch of respect for the Grizzly name. It seems the Sawstop guy(Steve) has kept the conversation very civil and professional, while the Papa Griz guy just seems like the bully that we envision the big conglomerates to be. As a small business owner myself with a few products in development, and having to frequently deal with larger companies, perhaps I'm not completely unbiased, but I really respect how much self-protection and self-preservation you must do at the early stages. I think Steve has played his cards very wisely and protected his niche and technology; had he played any weaker and one of the big guys would have swallowed him whole. JMO.
Anyways, thanks for the interesting read. And while I agree the table saw is a dangerous tool, I'm personally more frightened by my handheld power planer(which I've seen Gary Katz use in one hand while he held his workpiece with the other:eek:) and my Bosch fine cut power saw(a very torquey tool with a large amount of open blade).
Be safe out there guys and gals!:)

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for the "heads-up" Dan. I went over there and read the thread - interesting. And very civil, especially by Internet standards.

Mike

[Stan Welborn]

Thanks for the directions to the link; I had no idea a riff existed surrounding the SawStop. That said, after reading the volleys, I have lost a touch of respect for the Grizzly name. It seems the Sawstop guy(Steve) has kept the conversation very civil and professional, while the Papa Griz guy just seems like the bully that we envision the big conglomerates to be. As a small business owner myself with a few products in development, and having to frequently deal with larger companies, perhaps I'm not completely unbiased, but I really respect how much self-protection and self-preservation you must do at the early stages. I think Steve has played his cards very wisely and protected his niche and technology; had he played any weaker and one of the big guys would have swallowed him whole. JMO.
Anyways, thanks for the interesting read. And while I agree the table saw is a dangerous tool, I'm personally more frightened by my handheld power planer(which I've seen Gary Katz use in one hand while he held his workpiece with the other:eek:) and my Bosch fine cut power saw(a very torquey tool with a large amount of open blade).
Be safe out there guys and gals!:)
Funny how two people can see things different ways as I saw it the opposite of your interpretation. I saw a person making a statement on a public forum which was untrue and another person calling him on it. I especially liked this quote:

There is a lot more dirty laundry with you guys, so if you want to get into a public discussion, this thread will get very juicy, very fast! Makes me wonder what the dirty laundry is. :) Purely for entertainment purposes for me though. I don't even own a cabinet saw and have no plans to purchase one unless a deal I can't refuse pops up on a used one.

[Tim Marks]

Funny how two people can see things different ways

I have to agree with Stan on this one. Look what happens when the lawyer and the luthier fight. Maybe no surprise that Gass makes slick public statements; he is a lawyer after all. The Sawstop venture has been bitterly contested from the start. I am inclined to believe papagrizzly's version of things.

Reading Gass' statements on the fee negotiation side of things is enlightening, how he goes from "no set fee, thinking maybe 1%, settled on 10%, no way I ever said 15%". A lawyer goes to negotiate licensing a patent, and has no clear idea of how much to charge?

[Bob Aquino]

Thanks for the directions to the link; I had no idea a riff existed surrounding the SawStop. That said, after reading the volleys, I have lost a touch of respect for the Grizzly name. It seems the Sawstop guy(Steve) has kept the conversation very civil and professional, while the Papa Griz guy just seems like the bully that we envision the big conglomerates to be. As a small business owner myself with a few products in development, and having to frequently deal with larger companies, perhaps I'm not completely unbiased, but I really respect how much self-protection and self-preservation you must do at the early stages. I think Steve has played his cards very wisely and protected his niche and technology; had he played any weaker and one of the big guys would have swallowed him whole. JMO.
Anyways, thanks for the interesting read. And while I agree the table saw is a dangerous tool, I'm personally more frightened by my handheld power planer(which I've seen Gary Katz use in one hand while he held his workpiece with the other:eek:) and my Bosch fine cut power saw(a very torquey tool with a large amount of open blade).
Be safe out there guys and gals!:)

Having been a member of both Woodnet since 2000 and on this board for some time, I have seen many posts where PapaGriz/Siraz has posted and he has impressed me with his attitude to converse with his customers and deal with their requests as best he can. Having a shop full of delta equipment, one of the things that pushed me toward that brand in the past was their level of service after the sale. Unfortunately now after the buyout, that level seems to be gone. The good news is that companies like Grizzly and Steel City look to be taking up the cause and moving forward with it. If I were to buy an new large machine, it probably would be a Grizzly unless I found some old "ARN".

From what I know about SawStop technology, I would like to see it available across the board for a reasonable price. What is reasonable? I don't know, maybe 500 more per saw? Could Steve Gass and Shiraz work something out? I sure hope so. One thing that the thread makes very clear is the level of informality of the negotiations. I would have thought they would have been both singing off the same sheet of music, apparently they were not close.

Steve and Shiraz, if you are reading this, please put aside your differences and find a way to bring this technology to the public at a reasonable cost and time frame. Make it a Win/Win/Win (Sawstop/Grizzly/The rest of us) scenario and the industry will follow suit and we will all benefit.:)

[Greg Pavlov]

I have to agree with Stan on this one. Look what happens when the lawyer and the luthier fight. Maybe no surprise that Gass makes slick public statements; he is a lawyer after all. The Sawstop venture has been bitterly contested from the start. I am inclined to believe papagrizzly's version of things.
I don't believe that we have a complete story from either one of them. Both companies put out very useful products in their own way, but both men are marketers with a very understandable ax to grind on behalf of their companies.


Reading Gass' statements on the fee negotiation side of things is enlightening, how he goes from "no set fee, thinking maybe 1%, settled on 10%, no way I ever said 15%". A lawyer goes to negotiate licensing a patent, and has no clear idea of how much to charge?
Youve rolled into one phrase something that evolved over a fair amount of time, maybe a few years. I wonder how consistent any reasonable person can be who comes up with something quite new in an industry that has long-standing traditional views and ways of operating and probably not all that much of a margin to significantly retool? After running into negative responses, you might give up and walk away. Or if you're driven enough, you'll come up with another alternative and bet the farm on it. Having done that, and having some success and positive publicity, I don't think that you would then give it up and hand over control of the product to someone who hasn't been all that enthusiastic about it in the past.

[Todd Jensen]

That is funny Stan, because the quote you mention of Papa Grizz is the one that really turned me off. :) I guess I don't understand why Grizzly or any other company of its size would even care what one founder of a small(getting bigger apparently), single item startup would say. True or not, it doesn't appear that Steve's coming out and saying anything that bad about Grizzly. To me the bigger, professional response from Grizzly would be to hype its own safety features(if they're that upset that someone is alluding to the fact that dollars trump safety), and develop its own technology to compete. Engaging in an open forum he said/she said just seems unprofessional to me.
Either way it makes for great gossip and I'm sure in the end means increased sales for both companies.

[Bruce Benjamin]

That is funny Stan, because the quote you mention of Papa Grizz is the one that really turned me off. :) I guess I don't understand why Grizzly or any other company of its size would even care what one founder of a small(getting bigger apparently), single item startup would say. True or not, it doesn't appear that Steve's coming out and saying anything that bad about Grizzly. To me the bigger, professional response from Grizzly would be to hype its own safety features(if they're that upset that someone is alluding to the fact that dollars trump safety), and develop its own technology to compete. Engaging in an open forum he said/she said just seems unprofessional to me.
Either way it makes for great gossip and I'm sure in the end means increased sales for both companies.

I've been following the thread on that forum and from what I've seen one person has remained calm, civil, and professional while the other has has been none of those things and this doesn't surprise me at all.

Both parties are in the business of selling products. People in their line of work can use internet forums like these to promote not only their products but how potential customers perceive their company, (Is he a good guy or a bad guy?). Sometimes a company owner will let his true colors shine through, good or bad, depending on the circumstances. I'm finding that thread very entertaining and informative. I really hope it continues for a while longer. I don't think either party has said all they have to say on the subject and I think one of them is about to lose it.:)

Bruce

[Dave Falkenstein]

To put things into perspective, as of this morning there have been over 150 replies to the Woodnet thread. About 10 of those replies have been from either Steve Gass or Papagrizzly. Hmmm.

[Greg Pavlov]

I'm willing to bet that neither one is going to say anything more about the other one in that thread.

[Gary Keedwell]

I cannot find this discussion. Can some good Samaritan please print me a link?
Thanks,
Gary:o

[Dave Falkenstein]

I cannot find this discussion. Can some good Samaritan please print me a link?
Thanks,
Gary:o

We cannot post links to other forums here. It is on Woodnet in Woodworking Power Tools, and it is titled, "SAWSTOP on "BIG IDEA" last night".

[Todd Jensen]

:DBruce, I think you're right.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z66/grizzified/st_helens_bw.gif

And I'm a curious george, so I began a little research. Did you know that Papa Grizz aka Shiraz Balolia(a member here also) was running 11 other companies as well as of a 1996 article in Inc. magazine?
"I see opportunities out there that are so easy, I can't help myself," Shiraz said, "I have a bad case of capitalism."

One of these 11 other companies is Woodstock International, aka Shopfox.

[Bill Wyko]

What I don't understand is why doesn't Sawstop offer a bolt on set up for a variety of saws. Make a universal unit with adapters for individual brand saw models. He could up sales through the roof IMHO

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

What I don't understand is why doesn't Sawstop offer a bolt on set up for a variety of saws. Make a universal unit with adapters for individual brand saw models. He could up sales through the roof IMHO

The brake system constitutes way more than the brake cartridge itself.
There are also retraction springs and mounts. I don't see how the system can be retrofit on existing equipment w/o a ton of rework (read $$$).

Don't get me wrong I love the saw. Sorry Grizzly guy but even w/o the brake system it is by far the best cabinet saw on the market. And then when you add the piece of mind that comes with knowing the brake system is onboard it isn't fair to compare it with anything else.


I am just a poor cabinet maker but when it came time for me to buy a cabinet saw I couldn't justify NOT spending the 4100.00. I have had to clean up far too many cabinet shop bloodbaths made by people who "knew" what they were doing on equipment we all thought was "safe"
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f354/gen1crewcab/DSC00668.jpg

[Darren Ford]

Todd,

Grizzly and other manufacturers might be little put off due to the fact that Steve Gass shopped his invention around, found no takers (at his asking price), then lobbied the federal government to require his device on all tablesaws. I once asked Mr. Shiraz directly how he missed out on the SawStop phenomenon, since at the time he was the one innovating in the industry. His reply was just as polite as always, he said that Steve's royalty expectations were not in line with industry norms.

I have said this many times over the years of Sawstop arguments, I think its a great invention; but I don't appreciate Steve Gass telling me that I *have* to buy it, and thats exactly what he tried to do when he petitioned the U.S. Product Safety Commission to mandate the Sawstop technology.

I think if Mr. Gass wants to enjoy the fruits of capitalism, he should play by the same rules as the rest of us.

[Art Mann]

Having read the whole thread on Woodnet, it is clear to me which of the two gentlemen is the most skilled at sounding professional and convincing people of his position. That is understandable considering that one guy of the two guys is a tool manufacturer and the other is a lawyer. That certainly doesn't prove that one person or the other is more truthful in their assertions.

[David Weaver]

Well put - truth isn't a weighted average of style points.

[Gary Keedwell]

Having read the whole thread on Woodnet, it is clear to me which of the two gentlemen is the most skilled at sounding professional and convincing people of his position. That is understandable considering that one guy of the two guys is a tool manufacturer and the other is a lawyer. That certainly doesn't prove that one person or the other is more truthful in their assertions.
I was thinking the same while I was reading the thread. I guess it is residue from the fact that my wife has to work with them (lawyers) almost every day:o

Gary

[Greg Pavlov]

I'm willing to bet that neither one is going to say anything more about the other one in that thread.
... lost that one in less than two hours....:(

[Todd Jensen]

It seems you guys didn't read my post. While I agree that one of them is sounding more professional, and perhaps because of his law background, the other one isn't some mom & pop good ol' boy. He is a Kenyan-born businessman, owner of a conglomerate of large companies, including but not limited to, Grizzly and Shop Fox. I'm not arguing truth or not; to me the argument is rather petty and just a dispute of why or why not they chose not to do business with one another at the time. The fact is they chose not to and went their separate ways. I still think the more professional approach from the conglomerate businessman would be either to put up or shut up - explain why his saws are equally safe or introduce a competing technology to Sawstop. My opinion is he can't do either and has a hard time sitting silently while he can't. Also, while we can pick on the Sawstop founder's law background, we know nothing of Shiraz's educational or business background prior to Grizzly.

[David Weaver]

Nobody is saying Shiraz is a dummy, or giving him pity points - at least as far as I could tell.

From my standpoint, they only reason I was making the comment was to say that none of us know what the real story is - we can all pick sides, but none of us know the truth. In the end, it doesn't matter if Shiraz is the most tactless person (and I don't think he is in this case, just stating as an example) we've ever met if he's the one who is right - it just appears he has less of a filter, maybe due to training, maybe due to nature.

Who knows?

Who here thinks we're ever going to know factually what the real story is. I'm not raising my hand.

[Ralph Lindberg]

..... He is a Kenyan-born businessman, owner of a conglomerate of large companies, including but not limited to, Grizzly and Shop Fox.

He also has at least one patent

[Gary Keedwell]

It seems you guys didn't read my post. While I agree that one of them is sounding more professional, and perhaps because of his law background, the other one isn't some mom & pop good ol' boy. He is a Kenyan-born businessman, owner of a conglomerate of large companies, including but not limited to, Grizzly and Shop Fox.
LOL I missed it Todd. I think the volcano distracted me. There are many capitalists that hire mouth-pieces for the simple reason that they cannot always articulate what they are thinking. That being said, there are many capitalist that can handle words, Donald Trump comes to mind, as well as Sam Maloof can handle wood.;)
Gary

[Todd Jensen]

:D I'm not sure Shiraz knows which one that is, but its our local favorite.

[Carl Crout]

Thanks for the directions to the link; I had no idea a riff existed surrounding the SawStop. That said, after reading the volleys, I have lost a touch of respect for the Grizzly name. It seems the Sawstop guy(Steve) has kept the conversation very civil and professional, while the Papa Griz guy just seems like the bully that we envision the big conglomerates to be. As a small business owner myself with a few products in development, and having to frequently deal with larger companies, perhaps I'm not completely unbiased, but I really respect how much self-protection and self-preservation you must do at the early stages. I think Steve has played his cards very wisely and protected his niche and technology; had he played any weaker and one of the big guys would have swallowed him whole. JMO.
Anyways, thanks for the interesting read. And while I agree the table saw is a dangerous tool, I'm personally more frightened by my handheld power planer(which I've seen Gary Katz use in one hand while he held his workpiece with the other:eek:) and my Bosch fine cut power saw(a very torquey tool with a large amount of open blade).
Be safe out there guys and gals!:)

I don't have any respect for Steve or the way that he tried to make me and everyone else buy his technology. If it is so great, it should sell it's self.
Since Steve is a lawyer I take Papa Grizz's side and I don't have any Grizzly tools.

[Alan Trout]

I read the exchange and to me Papa Griz had the more compelling explanation. To me Mr. Gass just sounded like a lawyer. I should know I have 3 of them (lawyers) in the family. They tend to have pretty scewed prospective of the world. I had a Lawyer once tell me that all accidents are someones fault, and there is always someone to sue. It is very sad that many of us no longer take responsablity for our actions and decisions and always look for the deep pockets. I myself have been victim of a couple frivolous lawsuits. They were dismissed but it still cost me a bunch of coin. This reflects in what my buisness charges so these type of actions cost the consumer in the end.

It is my opinion that Mr. Gass was looking for those deep pockets and did not find any takers at the time. That is when He got the CPSC involved.

I think he has a great invention however his methods for implementation of the invention is what I find disturbing. As a hobby wood worker and knowing the cost of things these kind of actions could very well keep many from enjoying wood working in the future.

I think Darren said it very well.

Good Luck

Alan

[Bill Wyko]

The brake system constitutes way more than the brake cartridge itself.
There are also retraction springs and mounts. I don't see how the system can be retrofit on existing equipment w/o a ton of rework (read $$$).

Don't get me wrong I love the saw. Sorry Grizzly guy but even w/o the brake system it is by far the best cabinet saw on the market. And then when you add the piece of mind that comes with knowing the brake system is onboard it isn't fair to compare it with anything else.


I am just a poor cabinet maker but when it came time for me to buy a cabinet saw I couldn't justify NOT spending the 4100.00. I have had to clean up far too many cabinet shop bloodbaths made by people who "knew" what they were doing on equipment we all thought was "safe"
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f354/gen1crewcab/DSC00668.jpg
I will agree with you. I do believe it is one of the finest cabinet saws available. I've never cut myself on a saw but I did touch the side of the blade a few years back and trust me, I think about that lil touch every time I use the saw now.

[Chris Padilla]

I'm just waiting for the day for my 1023Z to die on me so I have an excuse to get the SS...so far, no dice. Grizz makes some fine stuff and I guess I'll have plenty of time to wait this one out and see what happens.

Many folks point at Gass' involvement of CPSC as a reason to shirk him but I personally think he was just trying to be a good little capitalist and use what was available to him to make some money. Was he being greedy? I dunno...subjective call there....

[Greg Pavlov]

The brake system constitutes way more than the brake cartridge itself.
There are also retraction springs and mounts. I don't see how the system can be retrofit on existing equipment w/o a ton of rework (read $$$).
There is also the sensing module, which might also be tough to retrofit.

[David Weaver]

There are probably a lot of opinions about the CPSC thing - to me it's more greed than it is playing capitalism fairly.

Was there an attempt to get manufacturers to pick up the technology first before there was an end-around to try to get legislative action taken?

I feel fine with a splitter, and to me, a PM 66 is an ideal saw. It would really disgust me to be forced to spend another $1,500 for a saw that does not do a better job when I'm just a hobbyist and I have time to think about each cut. $1,500 is a lot of stock, tools, you name it to someone like me who is a hobbyist. In fact, it more than covers the last 18-inch band saw that I got.

I really don't have any appreciation for someone who thinks that it's appropriate for them to pad their pockets by taking that choice from me.

[Chris Padilla]

There are probably a lot of opinions about the CPSC thing - to me it's more greed than it is playing capitalism fairly.

Was there an attempt to get manufacturers to pick up the technology first before there was an end-around to try to get legislative action taken?

To my understanding of the story, YES. It was what caused him to go the CPSC route. However, it was pointed out that he wanted too much in royalties and that caused everyone to turn him down in the first place.



I really don't have any appreciation for someone who thinks that it's appropriate for them to pad their pockets by taking that choice from me.

Most folks feel that way and that will always be a knock against Mr. Gass but the fact of the matter is that that avenue to make money does exist--so you can't really blame an entreprenuer for trying it out.

[Scott Coffelt]

Looks to me as two sides of a coin. Though it's nice to understand the inside of what is going on, it also is not really something that should be shared outside their own direct conversations. At this point, I blame the Sawstop guy as papa was drawn into the conversation. The Ss guy could have easily just said we took to them, they weren't interested... period. left it at that.

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

[quote=David Weaver;698241]

I feel fine with a splitter, and to me, a PM 66 is an ideal saw. It would really disgust me to be forced to spend another $1,500 for a saw that does not do a better job when I'm just a hobbyist and I have time to think about each cut. quote]


I once fished a guys thumb out a a dust collector bag house who was "thinking" about what he was doing. If you shine a powerful light into the dust pile the fingernail glows red and makes it easier to find...... PM 66.

I hate the gov't as much as the next guy (maybe even a little more than the next guy) but the fact is that this saw is safer than conventional saws. If you're ever unfortunate enough to hear a blood curdling scream when someone lops off a couple digits the $1500 will seem like the best money you ever spent.

[Todd Jensen]

More gasoline please:D

[Matt Meiser]

Let me start by being upfront by saying that I think the Sawstop technology is a great idea, but I'm not at all impressed by the busniess tactics of its creator.

I find it a little disingenuous to claim that the CPSC petition was made because it “was the right thing to do” but now they won’t license the technology to another manufacturer unless that manufactuer embraces it 100%. I can't see any business taking that risk as they would be forced to reengineer their entire product line in one fell swoop. Even airbags and seatbelts were phased in over time and those were lifesaving devices. While cutting off a finger or two would be life-altering for sure, we aren't talking life and death here. Wouldn’t it be “the right thing to do” to get the technology into as many hands as possible (or not into hands as the case may be :rolleyes: ?) Wouldn't the market forces created by competition be a good thing to drive down the cost of the technology? Steve Gass wants to make money and he would get a lot more respect just saying it up front.


More gasoline please:D


Does this work for you :D: Who will be first to include Sawstop technology: Festool or Eurekazone? Ducking for cover...

[Chris Padilla]

Who will be first to include Sawstop technology: Festool or Eurekazone? Ducking for cover...

Ouch...are the F vs. E wars still strong? :rolleyes:

[Tim Marks]

well the fun over there is over... the moderator stepped in and locked the thread... (edit: no its not)

dang, I wanted to read another:
-59 responses about how a SS cabinet saw is overpriced... $2500 for the saw and $1500 for the SS cartridge, good grief!
-37 responses about how it is the best saw in the world and the extra $1500 is worth it if it saves you from loosing a finger (and then they get hit by kickback the next day...)
-14 people asking for a hybrid saw to be released for the same price as the long awaited SS contractor table saw
-17 people decrying the undefendable business practices of SS
-5 people decrying the undefendable business practices of Grizzly and their ilk
-6 more statements from Gass about how he is on a moral trip to save the world all by himself and thet he would license the technology for virtually free as long as he was given a majority of the companies shares on the common market... and it is not his fault that not a single manufacturer wanted to license his product despite his offerring it to them for virtually free from the altruistic depths of his heart
-3 more statements from PapaGrizzly in the gruff style to which we have become accustomed
-2 people saying "death to the lawyers"

[Glen Blanchard]

Wouldn’t it be “the right thing to do” to get the technology into as many hands as possible (or not into hands as the case may be :rolleyes: ?)

Matt - The very significant investment that has been made in the R&D of the SawStop kinda precludes this altruistic behavior - don't ya think? IOW, at this point, the financial commitment has been made and a profit must be reaped to justify the investment and risk.

[Matt Meiser]

Glen, I'm not arguing against that fact. I'm just saying that I think the guy would be a lot better off in the eyes of the woodworking community if he just came out and said that was his intention. I've got to believe most of the animosity towards him is a result of the approach. By all accounts from those who've used them (I haven't) the SS cabinet saw is one of the best on the market even if you ignore the SS feature. Sure there would be detractors just based on price (just like Festool) but it seems like a lot of people hate the guy for who he appears to be.

[Dave Falkenstein]

IMHO:

Papagrizzly AND Steve Gass are acting inappropriately in being willing to take their private argument public to the woodworking consumers via the forum thread. It seems to me there is nothing to be gained for either of them at this point. Perhaps nanana, I told you so, makes one or both feel better?

The animosity expressed toward lawyers here and in the Woodnet thread is difficult to understand. Can't we all just get along? No, I'm not a lawyer.

There, now I feel better.

[mike wacker]

Probably been said before, but I don't care to humor either of these guys as my real fear, is in this world of litigation we will lose manufacturers of quality machines because people do not take responsibility for using them.

I will take my chances using my skill/fear/brains whatever using a $500 to $1000 or even $3000 dollar cabinet saw, set up correctly before I embrace such technology.

Just my 2 cents.

[Glen Blanchard]

I've got to believe most of the animosity towards him is a result of the approach.

<snip, snip>

Sure there would be detractors just based on price (just like Festool) but it seems like a lot of people hate the guy for who he appears to be.

Yes Matt, I agree with you there completely.

[Gary Keedwell]

IMHO:


The animosity expressed toward lawyers here and in the Woodnet thread is difficult to understand. Can't we all just get along? No, I'm not a lawyer.

There, now I feel better.
Never been divorced, huh David? ;)

Gary

[Jeff Norri]

A post on one to forum to discuss a post on another forum:p I have seen it all now.

Nearly 50 replies too!

[Jim O'Dell]

Jeff, make it an even 50! :D
I haven't read the entire Woodnet thread, though I have read some of it. I'm a little saddened that Shiraz got mixed up in the "fight", but I think he felt he needed to defend himself and his company. Something that most of us would do, even if we regretted it later.
I too think that Gass has a great safety device in the SS. I'd love to have the ability to have one, but I doubt it will ever happen. Do I begrudge him for making money off his idea? Nope. I am glad he didn't get a ruling that said every saw had to have this device, though. Is it surprising that a lawyer would go this route? Nope! This is what they have learned from the Law Schools that have trained them. It is their life and livelyhoods. It is a natural route for him to take. He may not have ever thought he would succeed. But it allowed him to test the waters, and he got a LOT of advertisement because of it. People stood up and wanted to see what the fuss was all about.
I'd love to see other manufacturers adopt a similar system. But it will take another Gass to develop a different but equally effective unit to make this happen. I'm not going to hold my breath. I also don't think Shiraz should have gone to this on 100% of his line. That is not his target audience. He has had equipment built that more and more people can afford, that are decent quality machines, and put his name on it. If he adopted the SS technology 100%, it would take him out of that market in table saws. It would be a bad move, for all of us.
This fight too will die. Do we have any more answers than we did? Or just more questions? Jim.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Never been divorced, huh David? ;)

Gary

Gary - Nope - married 45 years to one woman. I do know several lawyers though. They seem quite human to me. :)

[jack duren]

well the fun over there is over... the moderator stepped in and locked the thread... (edit: no its not)

dang, I wanted to read another:
-59 responses about how a SS cabinet saw is overpriced... $2500 for the saw and $1500 for the SS cartridge, good grief!
-37 responses about how it is the best saw in the world and the extra $1500 is worth it if it saves you from loosing a finger (and then they get hit by kickback the next day...)
-14 people asking for a hybrid saw to be released for the same price as the long awaited SS contractor table saw
-17 people decrying the undefendable business practices of SS
-5 people decrying the undefendable business practices of Grizzly and their ilk
-6 more statements from Gass about how he is on a moral trip to save the world all by himself and thet he would license the technology for virtually free as long as he was given a majority of the companies shares on the common market... and it is not his fault that not a single manufacturer wanted to license his product despite his offerring it to them for virtually free from the altruistic depths of his heart
-3 more statements from PapaGrizzly in the gruff style to which we have become accustomed
-2 people saying "death to the lawyers"

You didnt mention...
-1 One banning of Rebelwork from the forum for comments to SawStop topic:D.. Im such a bad boy....Jack

[Greg Pavlov]

The brake system constitutes way more than the brake cartridge itself.....

That is a great-looking outfeed/work/storage table!

[Yuchol Kim]

Grizzly or SS, neither live up to Radial Arm Saws.

[Greg Pavlov]

.......If he adopted the SS technology 100%, it would take him out of that market in table saws. It would be a bad move, for all of us.......


One thing I've been wondering: this technology can probably be adapted to band saws as well, no?

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

.I cannot help but think of how similar this is to Cirrus Aircraft and the BRS (Ballistic Recovery System). Here you have a safety device that is proven to save lives but Cirrus is currently the only company offering as standard equipment. They are making buttloads of money off of it and I say good for them. I can't afford to fly one but I don't get down on the Cirrus people for their pricing. Innovation should be rewarded.....even if you're a lawyer.

[Rick Gifford]

One thing I've been wondering: this technology can probably be adapted to band saws as well, no?

I'd rather see it on a bandsaw than the table saw. Hands are generally close to the blade on a bandsaw, but I use push guides on the TS. I have gotten myself on the BS, but never on the TS so far.

I had a friend that lost most of his fingers as a teen on a TS. So the potential for more damage is certainly there on the TS for sure.

But anyway, a bandsaw would be a great place for this brake system.

[Wayne Watling]

Picture a lawyer, a bear and a table vise. Somehow the lawyer managed to get the bears thumbs into the vise and looks to be having a great time of it watching the bear scream while he slowly bares down on the screws...

Something has to give, Gass is taking business away from all of these guys and they are beginning to feel the pain. It may be 10% now but in another 5 years they may not have a market left. If they want to remain in the TS manufacturing business I think the time to act for all the manufacturers is now if it hasn't already past. Despite my personal distain with the approaches taken in the past by a certain lawyer, you have to give him credit for what he is achieving (in business terms). A small startup company recognises there is an opportunity for safer saws, the rest of the industry has neglected the safety issues for years and wasn't likely to move their backsides any time soon and the woodworking industry would pave the way to his success by purchasing this product. Isn't the writing on the wall for them, either they act now or die a slow and painful death at the hands of a lawyer... not a fun way to go down.

And this is just the beginning, I'm sure Gass has plans of getting his SS technology into all the other equipment.

Wayne

[Gary Keedwell]

That sure is a gloomy picture your painting, Wayne. But looking at the stock market today and the value of the dollar and top it off with the housing fiasco.....maybe nobody will be selling many table saws.:(
Gary

[Todd Jensen]

I suppose one day we'll see it on everything; I'd sure like a Sawstop fillet knife.:D

[Randy Klein]

I'd rather see it on a bandsaw than the table saw. Hands are generally close to the blade on a bandsaw, but I use push guides on the TS. I have gotten myself on the BS, but never on the TS so far.

I had a friend that lost most of his fingers as a teen on a TS. So the potential for more damage is certainly there on the TS for sure.

But anyway, a bandsaw would be a great place for this brake system.

Check out this link (http://www.sawstop.com/products-future-products.htm) for the SS bandsaw demo.

[David Weaver]

[quote=David Weaver;698241]

I feel fine with a splitter, and to me, a PM 66 is an ideal saw. It would really disgust me to be forced to spend another $1,500 for a saw that does not do a better job when I'm just a hobbyist and I have time to think about each cut. quote]


I once fished a guys thumb out a a dust collector bag house who was "thinking" about what he was doing. If you shine a powerful light into the dust pile the fingernail glows red and makes it easier to find...... PM 66.

I hate the gov't as much as the next guy (maybe even a little more than the next guy) but the fact is that this saw is safer than conventional saws. If you're ever unfortunate enough to hear a blood curdling scream when someone lops off a couple digits the $1500 will seem like the best money you ever spent.

Why don't we take this to the end of the argument then? A slider is going to be safer than a sawstop (and light years more accurate), and the cost in lost wages, etc from any injury from a sawstop to the slider for anyone should be attainable - so why don't we just make everyone buy a euro slider?

And why don't we outlaw routers or require them to have some sort of safety handle where the bit only protrudes if you're holding the handle.

Some of us don't really have any desire for perfect safety in our lives. I've broken 5 bones in my life, all of them have healed. There was a chance that at least one of them wouldn't heal correctly because of the fracture. One of the legs was broken by a falling tree cutting wood with my dad when I was young - I guess we should've burned gas instead. One of them was a broken wrist with 15 stitches off of an ATV. Maybe I would've been safer if they would've required a roll cage on the ATV (I wouldn't have had it then because it would've been priced out of range).

What is the percentage of hobbyist woodworkers who lose digits and don't just get a nick? It can't be very high, and in a world where people are expected to have judgement and a sense of reasonability, they should be allowed to make that decision on their own when it is far from a no-cost decision. Perfect safety isn't perfect happiness, it turns into paranoia - at least for some people.

[David Weaver]

Gary - Nope - married 45 years to one woman. I do know several lawyers though. They seem quite human to me. :)

I know several, too - actually, I work with a bunch. Most are "regular people", but a few are "gamers", and the gamer mentality seems to be prevalent in the bar associations. Maximize revenue.

A certain amount of lawyering is necessary as an incentive to keep society in line. Past that, and it's a draw on the standard of living of society as a whole, and there's no reasonble "governer" to keep the progression in check because the bar associations are the ones lifting people up to the podium to enact new legislation - the only threat is not getting voted in again. I think that's where a lot of the distaste comes from.

[David Weaver]

That is a great-looking outfeed/work/storage table!

You're not kidding. I'm jealous of it, too!

[Randy Ridley]

Just thought I would add my two cents here. The only table saw I own is a craftsman that a contractor left at my house and then "disappeared" For any real work, I use my dad's Delta. This summer I got the itch to buy a cabinet saw and was looking around. Then I made the mistake of showing my wife the cool videos at sawstop.

About 5 years ago, I had cancer and lost a finger out of the deal. It took all of about 10 seconds for her eyes to light up and suggest that I, more than anybody, should know what it was like to loose a finger and she was glad that I wasn't considering those other saws, especially with two boys in the house. When I started to say it was too expensive, She simply asked "Would you pay $2000 to get your finger back?"

Hmmm, I guess I'll be saving up a bit more. I don't really know how to argue with that.

[David Weaver]

Here's another question. Would everyone who ever did woodworking give you $2,000 at the end of their life, even if they didn't lose a finger? The people who want to pay $2000 more can do it at their discretion - that's fine, and as long as the discretion part is there, I wouldn't begrudge anyone for choosing their personal level of safety.

It's not a one to one deal, though - it's more like a lottery. You're not paying $2,000 to buy off the guaranteed loss of a finger. An extra $1500 is a lot of money to some people, and that in iteself shouldn't preclude them from being a hobbyist woodworker.

I do think it's a nice saw, there's been nothing to dispute that the saw itself is nice. And you're in luck that your wife agrees.

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

Why don't we take this to the end of the argument then? A slider is going to be safer than a sawstop (and light years more accurate), and the cost in lost wages, etc from any injury from a sawstop to the slider for anyone should be attainable - so why don't we just make everyone buy a euro slider?


I don't understand how a sliding table is safer ? They certainly don't have any additional safety equipment. Have you ever seen what a 12+ hp saw can do to an operator ? I have.....Thats why this innovation is so important. The larger equipment is even more dangerous.

We used to run 3 Selco beam saws from Biesse at a shop I managed and EVERY technician the factory would send out to work on them was missing fingers (one guy only had a thumb on one hand).

These techs were professional in every sense of the word and still managed to "stump" themselves on these "safer" saws.

Nothing is a magic bullet but as someone who has been around the industry for a while all I can say is "Thank You" to companies like SawStop for not being content with the staus quo
.

[David G Baker]

Looks like the Sawstop battle is in full bloom again.
I would love to have one but can't afford it so I guess I will have to risk life and limb with what I now own.

[David Weaver]

I don't understand how a sliding table is safer ? They certainly don't have any additional safety equipment. Have you ever seen what a 12+ hp saw can do to an operator ? I have.....Thats why this innovation is so important. The larger equipment is even more dangerous.

We used to run 3 Selco beam saws from Biesse at a shop I managed and EVERY technician the factory would send out to work on them was missing fingers (one guy only had a thumb on one hand).

These techs were professional in every sense of the word and still managed to "stump" themselves on these "safer" saws.

Nothing is a magic bullet but as someone who has been around the industry for a while all I can say is "Thank You" to companies like SawStop for not being content with the staus quo
.

That's not the point of my comment. The point of it is creating a situation where everything that is not as safe as the newest technology is automatically regulated out, not leaving anyone *who is not at work and who is woodworking as a hobby* with nothing but legislated expensive decisions that have already been made for them.

If I owned a small cabinet shop, I would probably get a sawstop because I could write it off and it would probably save itself money in terms of worker's comp at some point. As a hobbyist, neither of those are true - I have control over what I'm doing, and I don't have to worry about lackies who are thinking about the girl they want to date, and then running their fingers across the blade.

As a novice hobbyist, I wouldn't have a table saw if they started at $4000 - plain and simple. I have a Delta Hybrid, and I gnashed my teeth a little spending even that. I read about safety, I don't make cuts close to the blade (with my fingers), and I have experienced and know how to prevent kickback in most cases. I should not be required to spend $4,000 on a saw that is going to get used for 10-15 hours a year, and it'll be a disgusting day when a bunch of lawyers in Washington think they have the right to decide what my level of safety is. I guess they consider themse'ves smarter and more reasonable than me to begin with, and if they can get some campaign contributions for "contributing" to society, then that will make them even smarter than me - or at least that's what they'll tell me.

[Wayne Watling]

That sure is a gloomy picture your painting, Wayne. But looking at the stock market today and the value of the dollar and top it off with the housing fiasco.....maybe nobody will be selling many table saws.:(
Gary

> gloomy picture your painting

Hi Gary,

Depends on which side of the fence your sitting on.
For Gass I think he is probably just starting to see some light after a long and difficult struggle, things are probably starting to look pretty rosy for him I would imagine. :)

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

That's not the point of my comment. The point of it is creating a situation where everything that is not as safe as the newest technology is automatically regulated out, not leaving anyone *who is not at work and who is woodworking as a hobby* with nothing but legislated expensive decisions that have already been made for them.

If I owned a small cabinet shop, I would probably get a sawstop because I could write it off and it would probably save itself money in terms of worker's comp at some point. As a hobbyist, neither of those are true - I have control over what I'm doing, and I don't have to worry about lackies who are thinking about the girl they want to date, and then running their fingers across the blade.

As a novice hobbyist, I wouldn't have a table saw if they started at $4000 - plain and simple. I have a Delta Hybrid, and I gnashed my teeth a little spending even that. I read about safety, I don't make cuts close to the blade (with my fingers), and I have experienced and know how to prevent kickback in most cases. I should not be required to spend $4,000 on a saw that is going to get used for 10-15 hours a year, and it'll be a disgusting day when a bunch of lawyers in Washington think they have the right to decide what my level of safety is. I guess they consider themse'ves smarter and more reasonable than me to begin with, and if they can get some campaign contributions for "contributing" to society, then that will make them even smarter than me - or at least that's what they'll tell me.

The part of your position that I take issue with is the "It won't happen to me" argument. The fact that you are a hobbyist/novice makes injury more likely,not less.

I don't advocate the goverment making you buy a $4000 saw. I also don't think big companies such as Black & Decker (parent company of DeWalt Delta and Porter Cable) will change quickly without a swift kick in the rear end from Uncle Sam.

Do you remember when plasma TV's were $20,000? I bought one when they were $ 4000 and now I could get the same unit for less than a grand....and that was less than three years ago.

I have every confidence in the free market bringing down the price...eventually.

[Dave Sinkus]

Todd,

I have said this many times over the years of Sawstop arguments, I think its a great invention; but I don't appreciate Steve Gass telling me that I *have* to buy it, and thats exactly what he tried to do when he petitioned the U.S. Product Safety Commission to mandate the Sawstop technology.

I think if Mr. Gass wants to enjoy the fruits of capitalism, he should play by the same rules as the rest of us.


The Gass capitalism is greater than the altruism.
If he was interested in promoting safety in the industry/hobby, he would give it away.
What I find condescending is his (Gass) marketing where "Keep in mind that a surgeon or musician who loses even one finger may be permanently disabled, which can have a pretty high cost to society" ....a musician losing a finger is a high cost to society? More musicians have been killed in automobile, plane, and helicopter accidents.

The whole spin is forcing ALL table saw manufacturers to adopt his techonology, albeit innovative and brilliant, or what? Is he planning to ban table saws ?

[Darren Ford]

Jeffrey,

Your comment sums up the difference in the two sides here. You think government intervention is the answer, I think the market will sort itself out. Plain and simple, the disagreement is not about a saw, its about freedom.

The "big companies" that you spoke about listen to $$$s, and if they start taking a hit in the market, they will move without government intervention. Thats the way its supposed to work in this country.

Steve Gass almost did it right. He invented something, asked for alot of money because he thought it was worth it, then decided to build it himself and show all the naysayers. That part is capitalism at its best, and if that was all he did, I would be his biggest fan. But instead, he went further and is trying to change the rules.

For all of you trying to say that lobbying the CPSC is just capitalism at work, you have a very twisted view of the freemarket. It might be business as usual for those in the political and legal field, but that doesn't make it right.

We will never reach anything close to an agreement here. Half of us will go to our graves shouting give me liberty, and the other half will always believe the government could have saved us from ourselves.

This argument will go on as long as this thread remains open, and I think it should be closed. The SawStop discussion is never about woodworking, its about politics.

[Jim O'Dell]

One thing I've been wondering: this technology can probably be adapted to band saws as well, no?

Greg, I'm guessing you've seen the link to the BS demo. There used to be a video where Gass showed a chop saw. the saw blade came up from the bottom to cut the wood. Jim.

[Mark Carlson]

The part of the SawStop story I find interesting is that some believe that Delta, Grizzly, Powermatic, etc would have adopted this technology if Gass hadn't asked for so much in licensing fees. I may be cynical but I don't think these companies would have been interested at any price. That includes free. Too much fear of lawsuits and change. Why innovate when you don't have too. Cabinet saws have remained unchanged for decades. If you want a newer design you need to look at sliders.

I don't want to be forced to use this technology or something similar by the goverment but I dont blame Gass for trying. Thats just business. I do thank Steve Gass for forcing these manufactures to start thinking about adding safety features like riving knives.

~mark

[Gary Keedwell]

Jeffrey,

Your comment sums up the difference in the two sides here. You think government intervention is the answer, I think the market will sort itself out. Plain and simple, the disagreement is not about a saw, its about freedom.

The "big companies" that you spoke about listen to $$$s, and if they start taking a hit in the market, they will move without government intervention. Thats the way its supposed to work in this country.

Steve Gass almost did it right. He invented something, asked for alot of money because he thought it was worth it, then decided to build it himself and show all the naysayers. That part is capitalism at its best, and if that was all he did, I would be his biggest fan. But instead, he went further and is trying to change the rules.

For all of you trying to say that lobbying the CPSC is just capitalism at work, you have a very twisted view of the freemarket. It might be business as usual for those in the political and legal field, but that doesn't make it right.

We will never reach anything close to an agreement here. Half of us will go to our graves shouting give me liberty, and the other half will always believe the government could have saved us from ourselves.

This argument will go on as long as this thread remains open, and I think it should be closed. The SawStop discussion is never about woodworking, its about politics.
Darren,
You are absolutely right. I do not understand this "cradle to grave" crowd. This country was founded on distrust of the government.(British)
Free enterprise and LESS government intrusion is the foundation of this country. Gass, started with the right spirit but ventured way off track.
Also, the comparison to woodworking tools and electronic video equipment is a stretch, to say the least. Manufacturers of said equipment know that their intended household market will be in the millions where as woodworking will only reach thousands. Recouping money for R&D , tooling etc. is a no-brainer with those numbers.
Also, I may be off base here, but I consider "politics" to be one party against another. What I see here is a way of life. Government is getting into our lives with increasing regularity. More rules, regulations, more national debt. The value of the dollar is spiraling down rapidly. The next few years are going to be interesting in our woodworking community.
Gary

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

Jeffrey,

Your comment sums up the difference in the two sides here. You think government intervention is the answer, I think the market will sort itself out. Plain and simple, the disagreement is not about a saw, its about freedom.

The "big companies" that you spoke about listen to $$$s, and if they start taking a hit in the market, they will move without government intervention.


They will not move as long as long as the "It won't happen to me/ I can't afford it" crowd continues to buy their products....thats the whole problem.


Like I said before I am not a big fan of gov't but it has a function here.

To the tool manufacturers I say come up with something of your own or suck it up and pay the man.

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

Darren,
You are absolutely right. I do not understand this "cradle to grave" crowd.

Well I for one am too busy trying to make a living to check my daughters toys for lead paint and my dog's food for rat poison so I am glad someone is doing it.


There is a happy medium here... I just know it

[David Weaver]

The part of your position that I take issue with is the "It won't happen to me" argument. The fact that you are a hobbyist/novice makes injury more likely,not less.

I don't advocate the goverment making you buy a $4000 saw. I also don't think big companies such as Black & Decker (parent company of DeWalt Delta and Porter Cable) will change quickly without a swift kick in the rear end from Uncle Sam.

Do you remember when plasma TV's were $20,000? I bought one when they were $ 4000 and now I could get the same unit for less than a grand....and that was less than three years ago.

I have every confidence in the free market bringing down the price...eventually.

I haven't stated it won't happen to me. I've stated to me that being someone who has reasonable judgment and free will, that I can mitigate a lot of the risk, and even with a risk-adjusted viewpoint, the device is worth nowhere near $1500 to me. You may think that I don't understand risk. That's fine. I'm an actuary - I understand it quite well.

I think you should wonder what world would be like where thinks that you didn't agree with were legislated. Maybe you should have your electricity distributed to you on a quota because higher consumption "injures" me. Perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car over 25 miles per hour - there is plenty of evidence to support the danger of automobiles.

At any rate, what I'm telling you is that this is a "how much is enough" argument when it comes to safety, and the answer is always "a little bit more". I've had enough so far, and I will take my calculated risks as a free man, and decide what's appropriate for me.

[David Weaver]

Well I for one am too busy trying to make a living to check my daughters toys for lead paint and my dog's food for rat poison so I am glad someone is doing it.


There is a happy medium here... I just know it

Where is the line drawn - where you want it to be drawn? There is no happy medium as long as there is any subjectivity in anything and someone else has a desire to project their judgment level onto someone else and tell them what to do.

That's what everyone in this strand of posts is trying to communicate.

[Gary Keedwell]

Well I for one am too busy trying to make a living to check my daughters toys for lead paint and my dog's food for rat poison so I am glad someone is doing it.


There is a happy medium here... I just know it
To put things in perspective.

FROM: Centers for Disease Control Prevention (CDC)
Playground Injuries: Fact Sheet
Each year in the United States, emergency departments treat more than 200,000 children ages 14 and younger for playground -related injuries
. About 45% of playground -related injuries are severe-fractures, internal injuries, concussions, dislocations, and amputations.
. Between 1990 and 2000, 147 children ages 14 and younger died from playground -related injuries, Of them, 82 (56%) died from strangulation and 31 (20%) died from falls to the playground surface. Most of these deaths (70%) occured on home playgrounds.

[James Phillips]

After reading about the petition to the CPSC here are some facts some of you are overlooking.

Gass did not try and mandate SawStop. The CPSC cannot do this. He tried to mandate the ability to stop the blade. The other companies could develop their own brake and pay not royalties. If it had been mandated it would have taken several years to be effective and given the companies plenty of time to comply.

The CPSC mandates safety features all the time. I am a small government guy, but the CPSC is one of the few bureaucracies I support. The reason this one bothers you all is you are afraid of being forced to buy something you do not want at a price you are not willing to pay. If every saw had one the development cost would be spread over a much larger market and the cost increase would be miniscule.

I am careful argument.... Do you have airbags in your car? Seatbelts? How do you feel about those requirements on the Auto industry?

Food for thought

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

Where is the line drawn - where you want it to be drawn? There is no happy medium as long as there is any subjectivity in anything and someone else has a desire to project their judgment level onto someone else and tell them what to do.

That's what everyone in this strand of posts is trying to communicate.

There once was a time when tractor driven buzzsaws with open blades were the order of the day. Have you ever watched the movie "Walk the Line" ? I am glad that industry regulation was put into place which requires things like guards. This is no different. I have professionally operated commercial woodworking equipment for 20 years without so much as a scratch and part of the credit goes to good manufacturers following good law.

[Gary Keedwell]

I am careful argument.... Do you have airbags in your car? Seatbelts? How do you feel about those requirements on the Auto industry?

Food for thought
[/quote]

Again, just like the plasma TV. analogy, there are millions of people involved with vehicle safety and viewing TV's. Woodworking machinery's market is minuscule as a comparison.
Can we please compare apples to apples.

Gary

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

Again, just like the plasma TV. analogy, there are millions of people involved with vehicle safety and viewing TV's. Woodworking machinery's market is minuscule as a comparison.
Can we please compare apples to apples.

Gary

For the nine-month period ended September 30, 2007, sales increased 2% over the corresponding period in 2006 to $4,910.7 million.

Thats what Black and Decker did for sales in the first 9 months this year.......hardly miniscule (that's 5 billion with a B)

[Gary Keedwell]

Black & Decker did almost 5 Billion dollars of sales? Just woodworking or do they own other things? We are talking about Tablesaws, aren't we?

PS. Why are we shouting?

[James Phillips]

Again, just like the plasma TV. analogy, there are millions of people involved with vehicle safety and viewing TV's. Woodworking machinery's market is minuscule as a comparison.
Can we please compare apples to apples.

Gary

Safety is less important because the market is small????

[Howard Acheson]

There is also the sensing module, which might also be tough to retrofit.

And let me add, the saw must be more solidly built to take the stress of the stopping of the blade in that short time. It's that issue that is holding up the release of the contractor saw model.

In other words, it's not just a "bolt on" type upgrade. The saw must be redesigned to hold up under the stopping process. This was one reason that saw manufacturers were not interested in licensing the technology. The would have to completely retool.

[Howard Acheson]

My final comments are that according to Steve Gass, the SawStop is outselling the Delta Unisaw and the Powermatic 2000 which are considered its real competition. Personally, I suspect that the increasing interest in true riving knives has been sparked by the SawStop. It's one thing that can be added rather easily to an existing saw that provides increased safety.

It has also been reported that schools and professional cabinet shops are major customers.

So, let the marketplace rule. Discussions relating to personalities and marketing are not going to change what the marketplace decides.

[David Weaver]

How is this no different than industry? We're talking about what hobbyists can use.

I guess maybe we should make all circular saws have the same type of mechanism?

What about chain saws?

Why is it that the argument goes to unreasonability right away? With the buzz saw comment? Nobody on here was talking about cutting with a buzz saw.

I and probably the majority of folks on here do not wish to have you and a minority dictating, through regulation or legislation, what we can do as a hobbyist woodworker - that's the bottom line. And as it relates to this discussion, we especially don't appreciate a thinly veiled attempt from someone who is a solution looking for a problem that needs a regulatory solution - while at the same time blowing ___ over our heads and telling us he's really only doing it for our own good.

A lot of us are married and had mothers. We don't really have any interest in anyone else trying to be our mothers or wives. Especially if those someones are driven purely or mostly by lust for the $$. Sure, they'll get supporters along the way who aren't profiting off of the endeavor - just like you're on board. That doesn't mean that the point of view of everyone else is less valid, just because they're not as safe as you think they should be.

Perhaps, a driver who has been hit by another driver going 5 miles an hour over the speed limit could show up at your house tomorrow with an electronic governor, mandated by federal law. Then shortly after, someone could decide that speed limits should be 1/2 of what they were, and you're stuck following them. And then shortly after that, halved again, because any accidents are too many accidents.

You don't seem to think this is the same thing, but it is, and in this instance, the marginal cost is much higher.

And to the later post that seems to think that there is a huge difference between mandating that a blade must have a brake system and a blade must have your brake system when you're the only one on the market with one - come again? Nice try.

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

Black & Decker did almost 5 Billion dollars of sales? Just woodworking or do they own other things? We are talking about Tablesaws, aren't we?

PS. Why are we shouting?

I am not shouting...I just deleted the quote symbol and couldn't figure out how to get it back :D

Of course Back and Decker makes things other than Unisaws but I take issue with implication that the R&D recoup money isn't there...it most certainly is.

Just a quick non-scientific poll in my head.....I know more people that have spent more money on power tools than they did on their TV.

[Greg Cole]

Would I like a SS cabinet saw, sure.... Thinking EVERYONE posting or reading this post here that doesn't have one would TAKE one.
But if we that don't have one, don't buy one or aren't saving for one, I'd say that's our business. If you are worried about your personal safety, feel free to worry about it, not everyone else's.
Yes, I've heard the blood curdling scream of a grown man losing all 8 of his fingers and both thumbs in a press brake (was 10 feet away when it happened) you could say I have a VERY VIVID recollection of it all. Choices have actions & repercussions... if you make the choice you are chosing to accept potential consequences IMO (or SHOULD be relegated to accepting them). This man chose to raise the height of the light curtain that is the safety guard to keep your fingers out of the dies in the press, higher piece count for the day meant more $. More $ didn't buy 10 digits on his hands....
I cut my thumb butchering a deer this weekend, guess the manufacturer of Buck hunting knives should have included a blade guard or retracting device, there wasn't even a warning about a sharp object on the knife anywhere!!! :eek: Or I can blame myself for my own stupidity.:D How 'bout neither and just being happy I got a nice deer and was able to take my little guy hunting for his first time. Yup, I'll settle for being happy!

Inherent dangers abound, if you can afford technology to avoid some of those dangers, GREAT. If you can't or chose not too, it's nobody's business but yours and your immediate families beeswax.

Anyway.....I will get back to talking & reading about woodworking, projects etc (ya know, the reasons I like this place) these threads can be amusing but usually deteriorate and don't accomplish anything other than flame wars & moderator intervention or other things that are found along the toilet bowl downward swirl.... cause eventually these threads get flushed.

Greg

[Jack Morrow]

I'm just a weekend hack that has a Delta contractors saw. I don't use it much because it's dangerous. I bought lots of EZ stuff and now my table saw is used very little. So, I'm wanting you to know where I'm coming from.

1. Remember Mom and Dad saying that "if you better a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door"? I would certainly consider SS to be one of the better mousetraps I've seen invented.

2. This great invention seems to have been snubbed and ignored by most of the business. I really wonder if "the business" has your or my best interests at heart.

3. I have to admire SS for taking this idea and building a great cabinet saw. I've heard well versed people say that the SS cabinet saw is great even without its breakthrough technology.

4. I'm excited that this SS idea has been turned into a viable product that is being used every day.

5. I wonder how much more advanced and adaptable this technology would be if the inventor would have worked on refining and improving his idea instead of founding a company to make woodworking tools and learning how to build a first class cabinet saw.

6. I wonder if a major player had adapted this technology if it would have worked it's way into cheaper table saws and perhaps other woodworking tools that cut.

7. I have three sons and I am not giving one bit of encouragement to them to enter the woodworking hobby. I will teach them basic safety and how to use more basic tools to enable them to do basic home repairs. Perhaps SS technology in many woodworking tools would cause me to rethink this.

8. I'm thankful that there is a least a choice of buying SS technology and if I were to buy a tablesaw, it would be a SS.

Just one guy's opinion,

Jack

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

How is this no different than industry? We're talking about what hobbyists can use.

I guess maybe we should make all circular saws have the same type of mechanism?

What about chain saws?

Why is it that the argument goes to unreasonability right away? With the buzz saw comment? Nobody on here was talking about cutting with a buzz saw.

I and probably the majority of folks on here do not wish to have you and a minority dictating, through regulation or legislation, what we can do as a hobbyist woodworker - that's the bottom line. And as it relates to this discussion, we especially don't appreciate a thinly veiled attempt from someone who is a solution looking for a problem that needs a regulatory solution - while at the same time blowing ___ over our heads and telling us he's really only doing it for our own good.

A lot of us are married and had mothers. We don't really have any interest in anyone else trying to be our mothers or wives. Especially if those someones are driven purely or mostly by lust for the $$. Sure, they'll get supporters along the way who aren't profiting off of the endeavor - just like you're on board. That doesn't mean that the point of view of everyone else is less valid, just because they're not as safe as you think they should be.

Perhaps, a driver who has been hit by another driver going 5 miles an hour over the speed limit could show up at your house tomorrow with an electronic governor, mandated by federal law. Then shortly after, someone could decide that speed limits should be 1/2 of what they were, and you're stuck following them. And then shortly after that, halved again, because any accidents are too many accidents.

You don't seem to think this is the same thing, but it is, and in this instance, the marginal cost is much higher.

And to the later post that seems to think that there is a huge difference between mandating that a blade must have a brake system and a blade must have your brake system when you're the only one on the market with one - come again? Nice try.

The buzzsaw comment was ligitimate. There once was a time when they were considered "safe" and now they are not. The same thing is happening with today's saws.

As far as being the only one on the market to have one.....NOTHING is stopping anyone else from coming up with their own solution. If they can't do that then SawStop guy is apparently the smartest guy in the room and should be rewarded as such.

The SawStop has a bypass mode that you can run it in that disengages the brake unit so if you choose to invoke your God given right to self-mutilation you have that option (no black helicopters required)

[Ed Brady]

Yikes! I'm almost afraid to weigh in here, but there are a couple of thoughts I have not seen on either of the two threads. First is that the SS is not just expensive it is big. Some of us with small shops may be challenged to make it fit. Plus the extra depth to the table is nice but means that standard accessories like a CI router top will not fit. Second is the whole price fixing. SS will not allow dealers to discount (so my dealer says) and I wonder what the mark up is in the saw. Does anybody know the dealer's cost?

Thanks.

[James Phillips]

Yikes! I'm almost afraid to weigh in here, but there are a couple of thoughts I have not seen on either of the two threads. First is that the SS is not just expensive it is big. Some of us with small shops may be challenged to make it fit. Plus the extra depth to the table is nice but means that standard accessories like a CI router top will not fit. Second is the whole price fixing. SS will not allow dealers to discount (so my dealer says) and I wonder what the mark up is in the saw. Does anybody know the dealer's cost?

Thanks.

I so not know the dealer cost, but I do know that small companies have to have a larger per item margin than larger companies. As the number of copies decrease the cost per copy increases

[Gary Keedwell]

Safety is less important because the market is small????
No, someone said that Plasma TV's were $20,000 when they 1st hit the market....and now the prices are closer to $2,000. The reasoning is that the prices decrease when the R&D and other initial expenses are compensated by inflated retail prices. Once manufacturers recoup the money....prices fall.
It will take alot longer for woodworking manufacturers to recoup their initial investment because of the relatively small market. The average household has over 2 TV's where as I have the only cabinet saw in my neighborhood.
Gary

[Greg Cole]

In regards to cost, when you have the "only game in town" you can set your price. The cost is what it is and mark the cost up to your predetermined margin, say 40% for example.This machine is built for a niche market and the price won't deter someone who wants this specific machine. Can any other top shelf brand/model of cabinet saw be considered direct competition?
At the day job we represent a brand of machinery from the Netherlands that is the ONLY MACHINE in the world approved by the USDA to do what it does. The oroginal technology was developed & manufactured by a German company that slowly went down the tubes, the company in the Netherlands bought the proprietaty info & drawings..... our cost basis on this machine went from @$125,000 to $400,000. Lets say sales of this machine have slowed some....:rolleyes: But the machine hasn't improved to the tune of $275,000. If you want it, here's the price. If you don't like the price, then you don't "really" want it.

FWIW.

Greg

[Mike Henderson]

Table saws already have mandated safety features, such as a splitter and a blade guard, but I don't hear anyone complaining about those being included with the saw. Each user is free to remove those safety features, if desired.

A blade stop mechanism is just another safety feature that the user can turn off if they do not want it.

Perhaps the major point of disagreement is the perceived cost of the blade stop mechanism.

If the blade stop mechanism added $50 to the cost of a cabinet, hybrid or contractor's saw, would those people who are opposed to having the blade stop mechanism on every saw be satisfied? And if you're not happy with a $50 adder, what extra cost would you be satisfied with?

Or would you prefer that no safety features be required on any power tools? Just have a "let the user beware" environment?

In other words, do you object based on finances or philosophy?

Mike

[Gary Keedwell]

I still say to let the market decide what we purchase. People used to buy a certain car made overseas because it was marketed as being safe. People in the USA would buy them for that reason. The company is still doing great after all these years.
If people place a priority on safety, let them buy the SS. If people want a SS and can't afford one, then they should either save for one or find an alternative. If people stop buying saws because they feel that they are not safe, the market will respond. What is the big deal?
Gary

[john lawson]

This is an interesting thread.

When all the talk started about the SawStop technology and how Gass went to the CPSC, I was as outraged as anyone.

When none of the big companies that manufacture saws would agree to use his technology, and the CPSC would not force them to use it, he stepped up and started his own company. My opinion of him started to change a little, to the positive.

When I previewed the SawStop in Atlanta two years ago, I was really impressed.

There is now a SawStop in my shop. I do not own it but I use it frequently, and it is a very good saw.

Is it possible that the shrillness we hear from Papa Griz is the sound of missed opportunity? Could it be the bitterness of realizing he has created a competitor?

If Gass refuses to sell his technology for less than he must he would be crazy. Meantime, he is getting ready to bring out a contractor saw version for less money. Do I hear more screaming from Shiraz and Jet and others? I think so. Because he can develop this technology for bandsaws, shapers, jointers, who know what else?

IMHO the market is deciding already who the winner is on this, people are paying a lot of money to get one of the SawStop saws, and I believe they are worth every penny.

I do not care for Mr. Gass' initial efforts, especially trying to get the CPSC involved, but I admire his technology, his guts to start the business, and now the product. I wish him all the success in the world. And because of his success, someone else will figure out how to do the same thing, only cheaper, and we will all benefit.

john lawson

[Mike Henderson]

I still say to let the market decide what we purchase. People used to buy a certain car made overseas because it was marketed as being safe. People in the USA would buy them for that reason. The company is still doing great after all these years.
If people place a priority on safety, let them buy the SS. If people want a SS and can't afford one, then they should either save for one or find an alternative. If people stop buying saws because they feel that they are not safe, the market will respond. What is the big deal?
Gary
Corded power tools are required to be double insulated. Should we (as a society) allow companies to manufacture corded tools which will shock the user if the tool gets wet? Should the buyer/user have the right to purchase such tools, even if they are less expensive than the double insulated tools?

We can certainly take the approach of allowing such things and then have the people injured, or the estate of someone killed, sue the manufacturer (as in the Pinto gas tank) to transfer the cost of such practices to the manufacturer. This will likely cause the manufacturer to change their design.

Or we can be proactive and require safety features, such as double insulation, before someone is killed.

I personally think the issue of whether a blade stop mechanism should be mandated is mostly a cost issue. If it can be made low cost, it should be required. If it adds a significant amount to the cost of the tool, it should be on option. The question for us all is what is dollar value of "low cost".

Mike

[Gary Keedwell]

Well, like the old saying goes, " you can't legislate common sense" and you can't put people in a bubble to protect them. Like making a law that says you can't have a bullet in your gun or you have to have a special lock on it. If somebody breaks into your house the gun won't do you any good because by the time you unlock it and put a bullet in ...your already dead.
I know that is an extreme example but I get very frustrated when I see people suing other people for their own neglect, and when they win the case they make a new law.
Look, I think the saw stop technology is great and maybe I would buy one someday. I think there should be more effort in trying to make the thousands of saws that are already in peoples shops, more safe. Most of these saws are going to be around long after were all dead.
Gary

[Tim Morton]

I'm just a weekend hack that has a Delta contractors saw. I don't use it much because it's dangerous.
:confused::confused::confused:

[Jeffrey Bergstrom]

I think there should be more effort in trying to make the thousands of saws that are already in peoples shops, more safe. Most of these saws are going to be around long after were all dead.
Gary

That would require melting them down and making weiner saws out of them. Sorry I can't call them SawStops anymore.....it's too unnatural for me as everyone I have ever talked to about them calls them weiner saws due to the hot dog demo method.:D

[Dave Lehnert]

Guess one could out law a table saw all together and make everyone use a hand saw. Best part one can be had for as low as ten bucks. Safety at a low price.

I for one think the Saw Stop is a great idea. Looks to be a very well built. But I myself would not buy one. I don’t like the idea of a computer like anything on my tools. My opinion. But anyone who would like to purchase one go right ahead. You make the money, you decide who gets it.

I do think it’s a little early to say any saw maker is overly concerned about the Saw Stop. I will be interested to see how the saw stop holds up over time. I see no problems but it all takes time to see. I would only be concerned with how the company holds up over time for parts etc… Just a short time ago we had tool importers like Star tools, Total shop and the like that are now out of business.

[Carroll Courtney]

I think this is it.

Link to woodnet removed.

[Roger Bell]

So is this Moderators day off? Starting to look a lot like Woodnet.

Perhaps it is time to turn the screen orange again.

[Burt Waddell]

:confused::confused::confused:


Tim,

I think that Jack is trying to say that he has found a better, safer way of accomplishing the same task. I am in total agreement with Jack.

Why should we be stuck with unsafe tools if a safer way is readily available. Naturally, we have to have an open mind and be willing to work a little to learn new skills. CHeck this for a good example:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=69541


Burt

[Gary Keedwell]

I was wondering how long before this got here:rolleyes:

[Dave Falkenstein]

I was wondering how long before this got here:rolleyes:

Is there a way to work Festool into this thread??? Been wondering where you were, Burt. :)

[Dan Lautner]

"I haven't stated it won't happen to me. I've stated to me that being someone who has reasonable judgment and free will, that I can mitigate a lot of the risk, and even with a risk-adjusted viewpoint, the device is worth nowhere near $1500 to me. You may think that I don't understand risk. That's fine. I'm an actuary - I understand it quite well. "

Would it be worth an extra $1500 if your son or daughter decided they wanted to become a woodworker and learn on your TS. The table saw is by far the most likely tool to rip your finger or fingers off your hand.

Dan

[Gary Keedwell]

Bravo, bravo. When all reason is exhausted..bring out the children card just like a union I know when their looking for yet another raise:rolleyes::o

Gary

[Dino Makropoulos]

I was wondering how long before this got here:rolleyes:

100 years?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Gary Keedwell]

100 years?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Touche' ;):D

Gary

[Burt Waddell]

Is there a way to work Festool into this thread??? Been wondering where you were, Burt. :)

Dave,

Can you fit the saw stop safety mechanism to a Festool Table Saw?

Burt

[Burt Waddell]

This is a lot like most discussions involving the "Saw Stop". We have a school that believes safety at all cost - it must be built in. On the other hand, we have the school who says safety is in the individual. Building more safety devices into the table saw is a waste of time - I know what I am doing and I am not going to get hurt.

My thought is there needs to be another school of thought that says there has to be a better way. The best alternative at the moment is the high quality guide systems.

Burt

[Dan Lautner]

"Bravo, bravo. When all reason is exhausted..bring out the children card just like a union I know when their looking for yet another raise"

I'm about as anti union as they come. The only people I see as bad guys in this issue are the pathetic American companies such as Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly and Jet. They know the statistical risks using table saws and dont care. The only reason you are staring to see Riving Knives on American TSs is because enough people like me simply will not buy a TS without one.

Dan

[Gary Keedwell]

"Bravo, bravo. When all reason is exhausted..bring out the children card just like a union I know when their looking for yet another raise"

I'm about as anti union as they come. The only people I see as bad guys in this issue are the pathetic American companies such as Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly and Jet. They know the statistical risks using table saws and dont care. The only reason you are staring to see Riving Knives on American TSs is because enough people like me simply will not buy a TS without one.

Dan
I don't know Dan...I think there is more going on behind the scenes and I'm betting that it doesn't involve discerning customers.;)

Gary

[Dave Falkenstein]

Dave,

Can you fit the saw stop safety mechanism to a Festool Table Saw?

Burt

Would you go for a Festool plunge circular saw equipped with a riving knife? :)

[Tim Marks]

The best alternative at the moment is the high quality guide systems.
...with a riving knife.

Where's the riving knife? I think you are advocating something unsafe, cause festool has one, and you want people to buy one with the same old unsafe circular saw.

Nice attempt to redirect to your favorite topic, burt, but I think people aren't done yet making fun of Shiraz and Gass.


I'm about as anti union as they come. The only people I see as bad guys in this issue are the pathetic American companies such as Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly and Jet.

That is pretty harsh. I think the companies do follow the market, and occasionally some of them lead. Powermatic sells the PM2000 with a riving knife, and I strongly doubt that this move was prompted by the competition of SS; this had to be something they were tooling up for before SS came on the scene. In this case, I would call PM a market leader, because they implemented this feature (which IMHO is about 10x more likely to reduce workplace injury then the SS feature) BEFORE the public started calling for it (of course the EURO saws had this 10 years earlier...)

Anti-union? Is grizzly a union shop? And I don't understand the pathetic comment. Today I can afford high quality woodworking tools that I never would have dreamed of owning 10 years ago. The offerrings from grizzly have improved every year. They don't seem pathetic to me. Looks like a company that is growing rapidly, moving from being a third rate box shifter selling cheaply made iron to one of the top quality companies in the woodworking market who is possibly THE top innovator in the field.

[John Bailey]

So is this Moderators day off? Starting to look a lot like Woodnet.

Perhaps it is time to turn the screen orange again.

No, the moderators have not taken a day off. The fact is that this subject has often turned contentious in the past and we have been watching it closely. Through most of the thread, the majority have been civil in the postings, even when disagreeing. It has begun to turn a bit personal at this point, so the thread will be closed. Thanks to those who have done duty keeping it civil as long as possible.

Thanks for your understanding. (Sorry Aaron, I couldn't resist.)

John