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Ken Fitzgerald
11-17-2007, 11:19 AM
I first joined this community nearly 4 years ago as I embarked on the journey of building a new shop. Well, it's nearly complete and I am at the point of starting to build cabinets and out fit it with equipment. I currently have a MM-16 and PM3520B that I hope to start taking out of the crates later today or early tomorrow. The empty shell of the shop cost me $16,000.......I installed 200 amp electrical service, R-19 in the walls, R-40 in the ceilings....plywood walls...sheetrock ceiling.....11 8' T-8 4 bulb fixtures ......I hate to think how much total money I've got in the shop.....in the building alone.....probably $23,000....Now I'm adding tools and I've yet to order my DC but it'll be ordered hopefully before weeks end.....

The LOML has wanted HDTV big screen for several years. Due to the cost and the ever changing HDTV technology, she's always not bought one because she's a "penny pincher".....Sears has a 46" Sony LCD HDTV on sale today for $1100 after taxes...out the door......the model is KDL 46S3000.

Could some of you television gurus give me your opinion on this set and let me know any "hangups".....can we view regular programs on HDTV etc...........

HELP! The sale is only on through noon today......

I don't have the time to spend weeks researching this myself!

Thanks!

Bonnie Campbell
11-17-2007, 12:01 PM
I don't know that set in particular, but Sony has been suggested to us to buy. And yes, you can view regular programs with HD. Make sure you check on the warranty very good. I know Sears usually suggests you get an extended. Make sure what all is covered. An off brand HD we had from Wally world died on us after 3 months and we had a war getting our money back....

Tim Morton
11-17-2007, 12:09 PM
HI Ken,

I have a samsung 56" DLP HDTV and would definitely buy one again. My biggest advice would be to start researching now and get an idea of what you want and then pull the trigger on Black friday if you find a deal. Things to know:

1. yes you can watch standard def programs on a HDTV, quality will be a little worse than what you are seeing now due to the much larger screen size. But its not bad. The upside is you will find yourself watching more an more HD, and less and less standard def.
2. You will need to upgrade your cable situation to HD...costs a little extra depending on what you have now.
3. You will want to then upgrade your stereo :-0

Good Luck!!

Bruce Page
11-17-2007, 12:14 PM
Ken, it is a very good LCD TV. Consumer Report magazine recently gave it high marks in its category. I have two of the Sony XBR series LCD’s, a 32” and a 46” and love them. Yes, non HDTV will run on it but why would you want to? HDTV is far superior!

Gary Keedwell
11-17-2007, 1:03 PM
We have been going through the same thing and I did alot of research. We finally bought a 46" Sony from Costco's. The HDTV we got has the 1080 lines of resolution. That is the future in TV. I'm not sure about the model your looking at but at that price I'm thinking it only has the 720 or so resolution.
I went to my brother's house to see his new 50" (he doesn't have the newer 1080) and it didn't look good to me. ( I didn't tell him that, though).
My brother is kind of cheap and he doesn't really reserch anything so he is probably happy.(what you don't know won't hurt you) .

I suggest you go to a store that has both TV's.( both resolutions) LOML and I can really see a big difference in the quality of the picture. Costco's had a real good price and over a month later the price went down $200 and they gave us the credit on our CC.
Happy Shopping,
Gary


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/BobbyG53/NewEnglandPatriots1.gif Go Pats

Tim Morton
11-17-2007, 5:43 PM
We have been going through the same thing and I did alot of research. We finally bought a 46" Sony from Costco's. The HDTV we got has the 1080 lines of resolution. That is the future in TV. I'm not sure about the model your looking at but at that price I'm thinking it only has the 720 or so resolution.
I went to my brother's house to see his new 50" (he doesn't have the newer 1080) and it didn't look good to me. ( I didn't tell him that, though).
My brother is kind of cheap and he doesn't really reserch anything so he is probably happy.(what you don't know won't hurt you) .

I suggest you go to a store that has both TV's.( both resolutions) LOML and I can really see a big difference in the quality of the picture. Costco's had a real good price and over a month later the price went down $200 and they gave us the credit on our CC.
Happy Shopping,
Gary


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/BobbyG53/NewEnglandPatriots1.gif Go Pats

It would be hard to find a 720 set today(unless you are buying NOS), in fact it may not even be easy to find a 1080i...I'm guessing this unit would be a 1080p...and if you really want to make sure you are on the cutting edge look for 1080p24:D

I do see where sears has a sharp 46" lcd on sale for 999 on black friday. sure its a sony?

Ken Fitzgerald
11-17-2007, 5:50 PM
Folks....it was a 720 lines. We went to a local shop first where I trust the family that owns it and they sell Sony. After listening to Bill's spew, my wife decided she didn't want the one Sears is selling and I offered to stop at Sears as we passed the store homeward bound. She refused to spend $2000 on a tv. I'm juggling with my DC. Santa may have a surprise for her.

Jim Becker
11-17-2007, 6:02 PM
I happen to really like Sharp Aquos...have had a 30" for a few years and will be putting a new 52" 1080p Aquos in the addition when the time comes. The Sony LCDs do generally get nice reviews, however...

Tim Morton
11-17-2007, 6:58 PM
Folks....it was a 720 lines. We went to a local shop first where I trust the family that owns it and they sell Sony. After listening to Bill's spew, my wife decided she didn't want the one Sears is selling and I offered to stop at Sears as we passed the store homeward bound. She refused to spend $2000 on a tv. I'm juggling with my DC. Santa may have a surprise for her.

I would not purchase a 720p HDTV...but good luck with your xmas surprise:)

Gary Keedwell
11-17-2007, 8:04 PM
I would not purchase a 720p HDTV...but good luck with your xmas surprise:)
I know what you mean. Sometimes it don't look bad in the store, so my brother (who never listens to big brother) brought it home and Yucky!!!!:eek:

Gary

Peter Zacarelli
11-17-2007, 9:56 PM
I purchased a Sony XBR2 46" a year ago. I paid $3200.00 discounted. The same set, which has been replaced by Sony with XBR4 is available for $2000.00 or less (see Best Buy). I would put my Sony up against anything that is on the market with the exception of the New XBR4 & XBR5. Become a member of the 1080 club and you will be very satisfied. One note, I see reviews from people who say this and that, pro and con about this TV and that TV but these people never even receive real HD service. In order to really appreciate a HD TV you must have HD Service. Why bother to spend the money on a HD TV and not paid another $10.00 a month (DirecTV Anyway) and get the HD Service? Also another fact to consider, get at least 40" because anything less will give you a very small picture on a Non Letter Box movies, news, etc. Yea you could STRECH the image but to me that looks very cartoonish, people's heads out of portion and such. One more thing, do not get a Plasma TV unless you want your electric bill to go up. Plasma TVs are like having a 400 to 700 watt light bulb on and they give off a lot of heat. Of course all of this is just my humble opinion. :)

Jim Becker
11-18-2007, 8:49 AM
Pete, on the stretch issue, it's another thing to evaluate when choosing a 16:9 format screen. Not everyone does it well or right. My Aquos has an intelligent stretch mode that doesn't distort 4:3 material. It was one of the deciding factors when I bought as I knew there would still be a lot of material, both through the cable and via DVD that was not going to be native 16:9.

And I do agree strongly with you...at least the minimal HD subscription from a provider is absolutely worth it.

John Shuk
11-18-2007, 9:04 AM
Don't know if what shipping adds but I have found these guys have great prices.
Going to the store in NYC is like a kid going to FAO Swartz.
http://www.jr.com/

David Duke
11-18-2007, 9:17 AM
Couple of questions from a guy who knows absolutley about this stuff. On the difference between a 720 -1080 I understand that bigger is better (kinda like MORE POWER:D:D) however it is my understanding that the satalite broadcasts (DirecTV at least) is delivering a 720 signal with no plans to upgrade for several years, I know that games and DVDs are at 1080 but I'm not a gamer nor do we watch many DVDs.

I'm a firm believer in buying the best that you can afford but is it truly worth the 500.00 - 600.00 extra for the 1080? As far as LCD vs Plasma, it is my understanding that the Plasma is superior when viewing from an angle is this the case? Where it will be placed would have indirect lighting so glare would no be a problem and as far as energy consumption, we only watch TV a few hours a week and any saving with LCD would be negligable.

Gary Keedwell
11-18-2007, 11:20 AM
David...Not sure how HD TV will fare with Satellite. Before we moved here 3 years ago we lived deep in the woods and it was cost prohibitive for us to acquire cable, but we enjoyed satelite.
Now that we have cable (Comcast) it was a no-brainer. They continue to add more stations to their HD menu. We have no less then 21 channels from which to chose. Together with our DVR ( digital video recorder) we are very pleased with our 46" Sony HDTV 1080. We like to watch National Geographic and Discovery and the photography is just unbelievable. I can't believe that I hung onto my 12 year old Sony tube for so long.
Gary

Brian Weick
11-18-2007, 11:23 AM
If it was me - 46" Sony HDTV . very reliable and a fantastic picture. getting mine after the first of the year. If you can wait- they will be closing these models out for 2008, at a reduced price.
Have a great day Ken. :)
Brian

Jim Becker
11-18-2007, 11:27 AM
Gary, sat is actually pushing hard on HD these days. DirectTV even changed some of the technology they use (and the Satellite, itself) so they could offer more with better quality through improved compression algorithms. I currently have Comcast and do get their HD. My issue with them is they keep taking away HD channels for those of us who refuse to pay big bucks for a lot of stations we never have any intention of watching. They just tried to get another $30 out of me, for example, when they took away Discovery Theater HD from the basic HD offer...the only HD channel that my kids regularly watch. Adding $30 (more, actually, as that was time limited) is a big nut over the $38.50 I'm paying for basic/Digital Plus/HD now per month. If I have to pay more, I'll go with DirectTV or if the township ever stops trying to make unreasonable demands on Verizon which is keeping deployment away, FiOS TV, both of which provide great quality HD, the latter over fiber to the home.

Tim Morton
11-18-2007, 11:56 AM
Couple of questions from a guy who knows absolutley about this stuff. On the difference between a 720 -1080 I understand that bigger is better (kinda like MORE POWER:D:D) however it is my understanding that the satalite broadcasts (DirecTV at least) is delivering a 720 signal with no plans to upgrade for several years, I know that games and DVDs are at 1080 but I'm not a gamer nor do we watch many DVDs.

I'm a firm believer in buying the best that you can afford but is it truly worth the 500.00 - 600.00 extra for the 1080? As far as LCD vs Plasma, it is my understanding that the Plasma is superior when viewing from an angle is this the case? Where it will be placed would have indirect lighting so glare would no be a problem and as far as energy consumption, we only watch TV a few hours a week and any saving with LCD would be negligable.

the main reason to go 1080p is to give your chance a shot to be future proof. Comcast broadcasts several shows in 1080i (which is similar in quality to 720p). But depending on how large a set you buy and how far you sit from it will determine if you can "see" the difference. Also even if you don't watch many dvd's now...once you see the HD picture you might find yourself shopping for an HD-dvd player DAMHIKT:eek: But I bought my Toshiba XA2 a couple months ago and i LOVE it. Before that I hardly watched any dvd's.

Gary Keedwell
11-18-2007, 12:50 PM
Gary, sat is actually pushing hard on HD these days. DirectTV even changed some of the technology they use (and the Satellite, itself) so they could offer more with better quality through improved compression algorithms. I currently have Comcast and do get their HD. My issue with them is they keep taking away HD channels for those of us who refuse to pay big bucks for a lot of stations we never have any intention of watching. They just tried to get another $30 out of me, for example, when they took away Discovery Theater HD from the basic HD offer...the only HD channel that my kids regularly watch. Adding $30 (more, actually, as that was time limited) is a big nut over the $38.50 I'm paying for basic/Digital Plus/HD now per month. If I have to pay more, I'll go with DirectTV or if the township ever stops trying to make unreasonable demands on Verizon which is keeping deployment away, FiOS TV, both of which provide great quality HD, the latter over fiber to the home.
Jim, Not sure what we pay for HDTV as all our TV, telephone and internet are lumped together as one bill. I have one question: will you be getting a 120 Hz or a 60 Hz? I purchased the 60Hz and haven't noticed a difference in the 3:2 pulldown, but we don't view alot of fast action video's anyways. The price for the 120 Hz is rather substantial.
Gary

Curt Harms
11-18-2007, 12:57 PM
the main reason to go 1080p is to give your chance a shot to be future proof. Comcast broadcasts several shows in 1080i (which is similar in quality to 720p). But depending on how large a set you buy and how far you sit from it will determine if you can "see" the difference. Also even if you don't watch many dvd's now...once you see the HD picture you might find yourself shopping for an HD-dvd player DAMHIKT:eek: But I bought my Toshiba XA2 a couple months ago and i LOVE it. Before that I hardly watched any dvd's.

Does anyone have experience with upconverting players? Is it just a gadget to extract money, or is there a real difference? Thanks for any inputs!

Curt

Bruce Page
11-18-2007, 1:04 PM
I purchased a Sony XBR2 46" a year ago. I paid $3200.00 discounted. The same set, which has been replaced by Sony with XBR4 is available for $2000.00 or less (see Best Buy). I would put my Sony up against anything that is on the market with the exception of the New XBR4 & XBR5. Become a member of the 1080 club and you will be very satisfied. One note, I see reviews from people who say this and that, pro and con about this TV and that TV but these people never even receive real HD service. In order to really appreciate a HD TV you must have HD Service. Why bother to spend the money on a HD TV and not paid another $10.00 a month (DirecTV Anyway) and get the HD Service? Also another fact to consider, get at least 40" because anything less will give you a very small picture on a Non Letter Box movies, news, etc. Yea you could STRECH the image but to me that looks very cartoonish, people's heads out of portion and such. One more thing, do not get a Plasma TV unless you want your electric bill to go up. Plasma TVs are like having a 400 to 700 watt light bulb on and they give off a lot of heat. Of course all of this is just my humble opinion. :)

Pete I have the Sony 46" XBR2 also. I paid about 3700 with shipping. I am STILL amazed with the picture quality. We went to a friends house last weekend to watch a race on their conventional TV and could barely stand it. HDTV is so much better.
I date back to a time when people were watching B&W TV. Progress is great!

Gary Keedwell
11-18-2007, 1:15 PM
Does anyone have experience with upconverting players? Is it just a gadget to extract money, or is there a real difference? Thanks for any inputs!

Curt
Hey Curt.


http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/hd-upconverter-intro.jpg (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/enlarge-image.htm?terms=hd+upconverter&page=0)
Photo courtesy Amazon.com (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=hd-upconverter.htm&url=http://www.amazon.com)
HD upconverter. See more pictures of high definition electronics (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/enlarge-image.htm?terms=hd+upconverter&page=0).
An HD upconverter is a device that solves two problems, both of which are due to the collision of old technology with new technology. The analog signal still present in a lot of our electronics is colliding with the all-digital developments that now control the electronics industry.
An upconverter allows the digital information stored on a DVD (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/dvd.htm) to be transmitted directly to a hi-definition TV without ever having to be converted to an analog signal. An upconverter also takes the lower screen resolution on most DVDs and "upconverts" it to the higher resolutions offered by HDTVs (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hdtv.htm)

Gary:)

Jim Becker
11-18-2007, 1:21 PM
JI have one question: will you be getting a 120 Hz or a 60 Hz? I purchased the 60Hz and haven't noticed a difference in the 3:2 pulldown, but we don't view alot of fast action video's anyways. The price for the 120 Hz is rather substantial.

As someone else mentioned, I'm buying for the future, too. The LCD TV I buy for the new multi-purpose room in the addition will be 1080p and 120 hz and be 50-52". I don't find the price difference all that much different at this point...a few hundred and even that may mitigate between now and when I actually make the purchase in a few months. I pre-wired for 7:1 sound, too, for the same reason. I'm still working on what I'll use for that.

Our existing 30" Aquos will be moving to the new master bedroom as will the small Sony 5:1 DVD home theater system. We will finally be able to watch some of the films we have missed out on since the girls came into our lives...and I don't mean "bedroom" flicks; rather, good films that have some language or situations that are inappropriate for an 8 and 12 year old. Netflix has been laughing at us for a long time for not watching anything...

Someone also mentioned HD DVD systems. It really pains me that there are two different competing technologies there right now...it forces one to either buy two decks to be able to watch "anything" that comes out in high def on disk, buy a combo deck (there are only about three choices in that space right now and each has some quirks) or pick one format, knowing that a percentage of movies will not be available in that technology. Arrrgh!

Gary Keedwell
11-18-2007, 1:54 PM
I think the prudent thing to do is let the two formats fight it out, then the decision will be more economically feasible. I purchased a 1080 up-convertion DVD player for $100 and I refuse to buy anymore TV technology until the dust settles.
Gary

Ken Fitzgerald
11-18-2007, 2:02 PM
The guy who yesterday convinced us that 1080 and 120 hz was the way to go tried to convince us that HDTV DVD would be going away and Blueray was the way to go. I'll hold off doing anything on that as while Bill is a straight shooter.....he's the same guy who convinced me to buy the most expensive Sony Beta recorder.......4 years later.......well......:o

Tim Morton
11-18-2007, 2:08 PM
The guy who yesterday convinced us that 1080 and 120 hz was the way to go tried to convince us that HDTV DVD would be going away and Blueray was the way to go. I'll hold off doing anything on that as while Bill is a straight shooter.....he's the same guy who convinced me to buy the most expensive Sony Beta recorder.......4 years later.......well......:o

re: the blu-ray HD-dvd war....Sony (blu-ray) is doing everything it can to try and win this war...so that is why when you walk into the big box electronic stores all you hear is blu-ray is the one..Sony is driving that train...but if you look into it a little deeper you will see hd-dvd is a better format....BUT that is no guarantee it will win. But i think we have 5 years before a winner is crowned....so pick one or both now if you want...but don't wait for a winner or you could be waiting awhile:)

Bruce Page
11-18-2007, 2:09 PM
The guy who yesterday convinced us that 1080 and 120 hz was the way to go tried to convince us that HDTV DVD would be going away and Blueray was the way to go. I'll hold off doing anything on that as while Bill is a straight shooter.....he's the same guy who convinced me to buy the most expensive Sony Beta recorder.......4 years later.......well......:o

Sounds like Sony has Bill in their back pocket! :p:eek::D

Gary Keedwell
11-18-2007, 2:36 PM
Sounds like Sony has Bill in their back pocket! :p:eek::D
Yea, and Ken's wallet in the other.:D

Gary

Ken Fitzgerald
11-18-2007, 2:45 PM
Sounds like Sony has Bill in their back pocket! :p:eek::D


Yea, and Ken's wallet in the other.:D

Gary


Why do me and my wallet find little humor in these comments?:eek::rolleyes::D

John Shuk
11-18-2007, 7:41 PM
I think both Blu-ray and HD-DVD are going to be in trouble.
As the different providers come out with HD content and fatter broadband pipes there will be less need for discs. I rarely use a DVD anymore. I just rely on my DVR.
My movie viewing has been seriously curtailed since my kids have come on the scene.
I like to read until I pass out from the exhaustion at night.

Gary Keedwell
11-18-2007, 8:09 PM
I think both Blu-ray and HD-DVD are going to be in trouble.
As the different providers come out with HD content and fatter broadband pipes there will be less need for discs. I rarely use a DVD anymore. I just rely on my DVR.
My movie viewing has been seriously curtailed since my kids have come on the scene.
I like to read until I pass out from the exhaustion at night.
With the junk coming out of Hollywood, I rarely rent DVD's anymore. :cool::D

gary

Karl Laustrup
11-19-2007, 6:52 AM
I haven't seen any mention that one can get HD broadcasts over the airwaves also.

Our local NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX and PBS all broadcast HD signals that can be picked up with roof antennas.

I don't know if you need a special antenna or what else is involved as we are too far from Madison [50 miles] and have many hills and valleys in the way, to get the signal.

Karl

David G Baker
11-19-2007, 9:51 AM
The guy who yesterday convinced us that 1080 and 120 hz was the way to go tried to convince us that HDTV DVD would be going away and Blueray was the way to go. I'll hold off doing anything on that as while Bill is a straight shooter.....he's the same guy who convinced me to buy the most expensive Sony Beta recorder.......4 years later.......well......:o
Ken,
The Sony Beta format was the better format at the time. Most TV stations switched to the Sony Beta format when they got away from the two person camera crews and started using the camera and recorder as a single unit.
Bill gave you good advice if you were looking for quality but he was wrong when it came to longevity.

Ken Fitzgerald
11-19-2007, 10:25 AM
David....Yeah Bill did give me good advice regarding quality. It just made my wife look at me with that "I can't believe he did that!" look when about 4 years later you couldn't rent Beta tapes anymore.

So now she has 2 VHS/DVD stereo recorders....one in the living room and one in the family room. I never use them except to show her how to use them. The only 2 things I ever watch on tape she bought me as gifts "Jeremiah Johnson" and "Animal House" my two favorite movies.

Michael Gibbons
11-19-2007, 11:15 AM
Geez, Remember when Phillips came out with the original flat screen? My friend who was really into electronics said it was really cool but not worth $21,000. He said wait a few years and the price will go down. Thank goodness!! I think it is a good idea to go to a place like Best Buy because of the selection of sets they have on at one time. And usually they are playing the same program so you can really get an idea what they look like. I haven't taken the plunge yet, but what I saw made me lean towards a Phillips. Super sharp, items not stretched in any direction and the colors are just right. But it sure is a personal choice. Ken, maybe you should take your wife with you and have her input on what she likes and is willing to spend.

Greg Peterson
11-19-2007, 12:26 PM
I believe that effective February 14th, 2009, broadcasters will cease analog transmission of television programming. Existing analog televisions will require a digital/analog converter to display over the airwaves digital broadcasts. The federal government will be issuing two $40 vouchers to each household for purchasing the required converter. I assume cable users will not require the converter.

Local broadcasters in my area are currently broadcasting digital signals. However, a digital signal is not automatically a HD signal. Broadcasters may chose to alot their bandwidth to a HD signal or multiple low definition broadcast channels.

Once my 32" CRT TV dies, I'll wade into the HD waters. Until then, I'll also let the DVD format wars progress until a format becomes dominant.

Forrest Price
11-19-2007, 12:32 PM
Ken,
I encourage you to look at his site :
hometheatherspot . com

They can and will answer all of your questions on this subject. A terrific group of people, and even access direct to MFG's.

They helped me greatly several years back when I was researching my big screen options, and what, 5 years or so later, I still love my 57" Hitachi 1080i and have never had an ounce of trouble with it. Sure, it's outdated now, but I'm still happy with it.

Good luck with your decision, I know it's a tough one.

Dustin Bartlett
11-21-2007, 4:35 PM
Everything you wanted to know and more about 1080p

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_1/feature-article-1080p-3-2007-part-1.html

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the difference between what signals a TV will accept and what it's native resolution is. All the new digital TV technologies (LCD, plasma, DLP, LCOS) use fixed pixel displays. This means the displays have a native resolution. This is seperate from what signal formats they will accept (480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p). Just because a set says it will display a 1080P picture doesn't mean you're getting an actual 1080P picture.

A lot of lower cost plasma and lcd flat panel monitors have a native resolution of 1024x768 (with retangular pixels to get the 16:9 aspect ratio) or 1366x768. They'll accept a 1080P signal, but have to downconvert it to the native resolution of the panel before they can display it. Always look for the native resolution of the panel, not just what it will accept for signals.

As for what looks better signal wise, depends a lot on what type of material is being displayed. For sports, 720P will look better than 1080I. When there is very little motion, you won't be able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080P. With lots of motion you will.

The grey section in the middle of this article is also very good:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Rich Stewart
11-21-2007, 7:16 PM
A friend of mine who recently bought a HDTV told me that the TV's now come with what is known as a QAM (?) tuner. Built into the TV. Makes any kind of converter box from the cable company unneccessary. He claims he bought the cheapest package his cable company offers and get EVERYTHING for about 11 bucks a month. Anybody know anything about this? He says the cable companies are trying to keep it hushed up but they really can't do anything about it.

Jim Becker
11-21-2007, 7:32 PM
A friend of mine who recently bought a HDTV told me that the TV's now come with what is known as a QAM (?) tuner. Built into the TV. Makes any kind of converter box from the cable company unnecessary. He claims he bought the cheapest package his cable company offers and get EVERYTHING for about 11 bucks a month. Anybody know anything about this? He says the cable companies are trying to keep it hushed up but they really can't do anything about it.

Your friend is incorrect. A QAM tuner only gives you access to unscrambled local HDTV stations that are physically on the provider's network. Any HD channels that are not sent "in the clear" will be inaccessible with out the provider's converter box or a CableCard if your TV has a slot for them. (Few TVs sport CableCard slots but Tivo Series 3 has them and can often be used as an alternative to the providers DVR offering) CableCards still carry some minimal monthly charge from the provider.

Christopher Stahl
11-22-2007, 1:01 AM
Well, I have 2 Sony 60" LCD RP, 1 60" Pioneer Plasma and 2 26" LCDs. One of the Sony's is 60" WS model that I bought in 2004, the other is a 60" XBR that I bought in 2005. While they have great pictures, they have both been replaced twice. In order to get them replaced under the warranty or extended warranty, a tech needs to come out 3 times. As you can see, that is a lot of visits. :)

I bought 2 26" Westinghouse LCD's early in the summer at Sam's Club that were on sale for $375 each. They are not high end in any way, but they do have a pretty good picture and work great. One sits in our home gym and the other in one of the guest bedrooms.

The 60" XBR has just been moved our bedroom, the 60" WS is in the game room. Hopefully I won't have any more problems with them. (Crossing fingers)

Last week, I purchased, for our living room, a 60" Pioneer Elite Pro-150FD Plasma which is light years ahead of any panel I've seen. The picture is amazing and puts a smile on my face every time I turn it on. :)

If you're looking for high end, then I would look at Pioneer. Can't beat their picture quality.

For Ken, you just need to take your wife out and let her look at the panels, and see which you both like the best. Their are a lot of good models out there.

Depending on what you purchase, 1080p may not be that big of a deal for you. Technically, you can't tell a difference between 1080p and 1080i beyond 8 feet. If you sit that close, then you may want to have it, otherwise, i wouldn't worry too much about it. To an untrained eye, you may not be able to tell at all.

If you're interested in getting a lot of info about flat panels, take a look at avsforums. You'll find everything you need to know there and plenty of talk about all the flat panels.

Cliff Rohrabacher
11-22-2007, 10:12 AM
I was watching a Sony 46" LCD this last weekend at a relative's house in VA.

He had HD on his cable. The HD was astonishing on that set. The non-HD was a little weaker than my tube Sony 36" Trinatron.

If you get the LCD you gotta get HD. It's a HUGE difference.

Rich Stewart
11-23-2007, 12:34 AM
After he told me about that QAM tuner deal i went and turned in all my cable boxes that I thought I had to have. I still get all the stations I used to get but i'm not paying 3 bucks a month on four cable boxes. Also turned in all the remotes that i thought I had to have. Savings per month? $16.00. I do not have HDTV.

Gary Muto
11-23-2007, 3:10 AM
We recently bought a Sharper 1080p 46" LCD and really like it. They are down to $1000 now for the lc46d62u? since a newer model came out.
I liked the picture better than the Sony which had just come out with their first generation 1080p at the time.
I also liked the Panasonic Plasma TV's, but our room is really bright, so the LCD technology won out.

John Bailey
11-23-2007, 8:49 AM
I bought 2 26" Westinghouse LCD's early in the summer at Sam's Club that were on sale for $375 each. They are not high end in any way, but they do have a pretty good picture and work great. One sits in our home gym and the other in one of the guest bedrooms.




Funny how folks see things differently. A number of times I've gone into the big box electronics stores and looked pictures, purposely not looking at price or brand. Each time, so far, I've picked the Westinghouse over everything else, regardless of price. Since I don't watch TV at all, (haven't been hooked up to an antenae or cable for 7 years) and watch only about 6 movies a year, I figured it was my lack of sophistication on the matter. With your comments about the Westinghouse having a good picture and working great, now I think it must of been my sophistication of appreciating value that was in play.:)

John

Frank Hagan
11-23-2007, 3:08 PM
I was watching a Sony 46" LCD this last weekend at a relative's house in VA.

He had HD on his cable. The HD was astonishing on that set. The non-HD was a little weaker than my tube Sony 36" Trinatron.

If you get the LCD you gotta get HD. It's a HUGE difference.

I guess that's what has been holding me back. Except for people who show me the HD channels, the picture on the LCDs always look bad to me, even in the darkened show rooms in stores. Blacks are dark grays, and on several sets I've seen using Dish Network in people's homes, the expanded image shows even more of the highly compressed "digital artifacts" (blocks of color, ghosting, etc.) We watch a fair amount of TV, but we often watch non-HD channels. My 36" Toshiba tube TV has a much better picture on non-HD broadcasts. I hate the expanded, deformed image when they are 'stretched' on the new TVs, yet when you turn that feature off, it seems like the image is smaller on a 42" than it is on my 36" TV. So I'm thinking I would have to go to a 50" or larger to get the same picture size. I think my 36" TV has a 4:3 aspect ratio, and the newer ones have a 16:7 like a movie screen.

We looked at TVs in Sam's Club or Costco, where they had them stacked with the manufacturer's LCD TV in front and the matching Plasma behind and above it, and it was obvious the Plasma had a better picture, in every case. The store probably had a HD feed, but even in HD, the blacks on the Plasma were truly black, and the blacks on the LCDs were dark grays. Other colors were just as different, with reds and blues much better looking on the Plasmas. But the screen on the Plasmas has more "reflections" on it because it is a high gloss like our picture tube TV.

If Verizon ever gets their FiOS installation on our side of town, we'll probably switch to them over Dish Network, and consolidate our phone, TV and Internet, and then spring for a new TV. Until I'm able to get HD content reliably, I don't think I would be happy with a LCD or Plasma TV.

Gary Keedwell
11-23-2007, 3:27 PM
I know what you mean Frank. I didn't want to get rid if my Sony 35 until it kicked the bucket. LOML and I kept close tabs on the big screens. We finally got the 46" Sony and the HD from Comcast. No turning back. We've had now for a few months and I'm still amazed every time I turn it on. Seems like their adding HD channels all the time. We must have close to 30 channels now.
I had my old TV for over 12 years and figured it might outlive me :D You only live once.

Gary

Jim Becker
11-23-2007, 3:51 PM
One of the things on one's short list when shopping for a flat-screen TV is the quality and intelligence of the various "stretch" modes available for SD material. That was one of the reasons I bought the Sharp Aquos system a few years ago...the "Super Stretch" mode didn't visually distort the SD material. In fact, it was designed to render it with proper proportions. Given that most of us will still need to watch some proportion of SD material for some time to come, both off the cable provider (or OTA) and on DVDs that are not encoded as wide-screen, it's important to test these modes before plunking down your money, IMHO.

Tim Morton
11-23-2007, 9:12 PM
Funny how folks see things differently. A number of times I've gone into the big box electronics stores and looked pictures, purposely not looking at price or brand. Each time, so far, I've picked the Westinghouse over everything else, regardless of price. Since I don't watch TV at all, (haven't been hooked up to an antenae or cable for 7 years) and watch only about 6 movies a year, I figured it was my lack of sophistication on the matter. With your comments about the Westinghouse having a good picture and working great, now I think it must of been my sophistication of appreciating value that was in play.:)

John

John this goes out to everyone...the reason you always pick the westinghouse could be that they tend to CRANK the color and contrast to the max on the set to capture in the showroom. Samsung is like that too...but then when you get it home and you realize your retina's are getting burnt from watching the picture you take out your trusty calibration DVD and you tune it to the correct settings...and you find that the picture is even better when the balances are correct.

cliffnotes.... unfortunately a TV showroom is the WORST place to evaluate picture quality... all the TV's have been cranked in the color and contrast to get your attention

Pat Germain
11-23-2007, 10:46 PM
I bought a Panasonic 50" Plasma last year. Of course, the same TV is less expensive now, but you have to choose to just jump in. If you keep waiting for prices to go down, you'll just keep waiting while the world of HDTV passes you by. :)

Sony LCD TVs are very nice. In fact, Sony decided to go LCD only; no plasma from Sony. However, it seems LCD is still a little pricier than plasma.

I went with Plasma because I wanted 50" and, at the time, a 50" LCD was very expensive. The only HDTVs I've ever seen with a better picture than my Panasonic are the Pioneer models. Since Pioneers cost literally twice as much as my Panasonic, and the picture isn't that much better, I'm very happy with my TV.

My advice when buying an HDTV is to get the absolute biggest TV you can afford and fit. Otherwise, you'll likely wish you got a bigger TV.

Also, believe it or not, a very good 720P HDTV will actually have a better picture than a not so good 1080i. So, don't let the numbers fool you. Consumer Reports is reporting on HDTVs about every other month. Their writeups are very informative and easy to understand.

As for HDDVD vs BlueRay, that's probably a situation best waited out. If you play a regular DVD on a progressive scan player and watch it on an HDTV, it looks GREAT! Personally, I think the HDDVDs and BlueRay discs look only slightly better.

Russ Filtz
11-28-2007, 7:33 AM
cliffnotes.... unfortunately a TV showroom is the WORST place to evaluate picture quality... all the TV's have been cranked in the color and contrast to get your attention

You need to grab the remotes and start changing settings to normal levels. Usually you can dig up some "normal" viewing settings of of A/V forums. Won't be perfect, but better than having the TV set on broil mode! If you're serious about buying, the salesfolk shouldn't mind. You can even change the settings back later if you're feeling nice!

John Bailey
11-28-2007, 9:27 AM
John this goes out to everyone...the reason you always pick the westinghouse could be that they tend to CRANK the color and contrast to the max on the set to capture in the showroom. Samsung is like that too...but then when you get it home and you realize your retina's are getting burnt from watching the picture you take out your trusty calibration DVD and you tune it to the correct settings...and you find that the picture is even better when the balances are correct.

cliffnotes.... unfortunately a TV showroom is the WORST place to evaluate picture quality... all the TV's have been cranked in the color and contrast to get your attention

Good information - Thanks Tim.

John

Jason Roehl
11-28-2007, 9:44 AM
One of the things on one's short list when shopping for a flat-screen TV is the quality and intelligence of the various "stretch" modes available for SD material. That was one of the reasons I bought the Sharp Aquos system a few years ago...the "Super Stretch" mode didn't visually distort the SD material. In fact, it was designed to render it with proper proportions. Given that most of us will still need to watch some proportion of SD material for some time to come, both off the cable provider (or OTA) and on DVDs that are not encoded as wide-screen, it's important to test these modes before plunking down your money, IMHO.

I'd like to know a little more about what your stretch mode is doing if it is filling the width of the screen without distortion...is it chopping off part of the top and bottom of the picture?

On my Sammy 40" LCD (720p), I watch regular SDTV in 16:9, and I don't mind it...it seemed weird at first, but I got used to it. I'd much rather watch HD content, though.

Something I find amusing is that we are all getting these 16:9 TVs, yet many of the movies coming out now are actually in a 2.35:1 format (wider yet than 16:9).

As for the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray wars, rumor has it that HD-DVD will win because the seedier segment of the film industry has chosen that technology...(they also chose VHS in that war).

Gary Keedwell
11-28-2007, 10:32 AM
I'd like to know a little more about what your stretch mode is doing if it is filling the width of the screen without distortion...is it chopping off part of the top and bottom of the picture?

On my Sammy 40" LCD (720p), I watch regular SDTV in 16:9, and I don't mind it...it seemed weird at first, but I got used to it. I'd much rather watch HD content, though.

Something I find amusing is that we are all getting these 16:9 TVs, yet many of the movies coming out now are actually in a 2.35:1 format (wider yet than 16:9).

As for the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray wars, rumor has it that HD-DVD will win because the seedier segment of the film industry has chosen that technology...(they also chose VHS in that war).
:D It took me a couple of minutes to realise your meaning of "seedier". My first thought was all the crap coming from hollywood. I guess it has been too long since I have viewed a real "seedy" film. LOL
Gary

mike holden
11-28-2007, 12:29 PM
People,
I am about to buy a HD tv, something in the 42 inch range.

But what I have never seen is an explanation of what you NEED for HD viewing.

I know you need a tv, and I will have to upgrade the cable to get the HD channels.

But, do I need a receiver and 5.1 speakers? Do I need a new DVD player? What about my VHS?

Any recommendations for a website that might explain it all?

Help!
Mike

Russ Filtz
11-28-2007, 12:29 PM
I'd like to know a little more about what your stretch mode is doing if it is filling the width of the screen without distortion...is it chopping off part of the top and bottom of the picture?

On my Sammy 40" LCD (720p), I watch regular SDTV in 16:9, and I don't mind it...it seemed weird at first, but I got used to it. I'd much rather watch HD content, though.

Something I find amusing is that we are all getting these 16:9 TVs, yet many of the movies coming out now are actually in a 2.35:1 format (wider yet than 16:9).

As for the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray wars, rumor has it that HD-DVD will win because the seedier segment of the film industry has chosen that technology...(they also chose VHS in that war).

You will ALWAYS have distortion with a stretch modes. It's just a matter of how noticeable it is. Some zoom in and cut off the top/bottom, some may only stretch the sides, others try to smoothly stretch the whole screen. Never usually a pretty sight to me. I usually go with a minor zoom and loose some top/bottom, or live with the sidebars. For 2.35 movies, I usually still go with the top/bottom bars to keep the proper aspect ratio. I hate stretchies or loosing screen when I don't have to.

Jim Becker
11-28-2007, 3:30 PM
Sharp's method for "Smart Stretch" for SD source does lose a little material from the top and bottom but it's pretty much unnoticeable when viewing. I believe they also use some interpolation to add pixels, too. The end result is that the actual image does not feel stretched...I haven't seen another brand that does it better, although it's certainly possible.

The films that are in the alternative anamorphic aspect ratios, but wide screen, will leave small black bars top and bottom...similar to the letter boxing you'll get when watching wide-screen material (like more and more commercials on network TV) on a 4:3 tv. It's also not really noticeable, especially once you're watching the content!

Pat Germain
11-28-2007, 6:28 PM
My Panasonic TV has many aspect ratios. There's one called "Just" which stretches the edges of the picture and leaves the center of the picture pretty much intact. It's a good compromise for watching non-HD programs without blank bars on either side of the picture. There's also a "Zoom" with multiple settings which will stretch the picture from top to bottom to reduce or completely eliminate the bars at the top and bottom. Most widescreen programs look very good with the Zoom aspect ratio.

In order to watch Hi Def Programming, all you really need is a HDTV with a built-in tuner or a separate tuner if the TV doesn't have one (most HDTVs come with tuners these days). Local broadcasts of ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX should be available in your area, for free, in Hi-Def. You may have to get a small, amplified antenna if the digital signal isn't very strong where you live. Sometimes the Hi-Def programs will come in just fine with as little as a paper clip for an antenna.

The Hi-Def broadcasts are on a digital signal which is separate from the regular programs. For example, if you normally get ABC on channel 13, the Hi-Def programs will be on 13-1. Typically, morning news programs, like Good Morning America, and prime time shows are broadcast in Hi-Def. Otherwise, the programs are in standard definition.

If you want more Hi-Def programming you will have to sign up for satellite broadcast company or get digital cable. Both satellite and digital cable are adding new Hi-Def channels all the time. However, I'm pretty sure the satellite companies (Dish Network and DirecTV) are beating the cable companies in this area (as well as a few other areas).

To receive Hi-Def programs with a satellite dish, you must have a Hi-Def tuner box. A standard satellite box cannot receive Hi-Def broadcasts. In addition to the Hi-Def box, you have to pony up roughly an extra $10 per month on top of whatever program package you select.

I was pretty disappointed a year ago when I bought a Hi-Def TV, Hi-Def satellite box and paid an extra $10 a month just to receive a token few Hi-Def channels. As of September 2007, things got dramatically better. I now have lots of Hi-Def channels and new ones are being added all the time. Most of the channels I watch (Discovery, TLC, Food Network, A&E, CNN) are now in Hi-Def. There's also a new Smithsonian Hi-Def channel which is really cool, but desperately needs some new programming.

Hope that helps. :)

** I would encourage anyone looking for a Hi-Def TV to check out the Panasonic models. They typically aren't pushed by sales staff because the prices are moderate and the markup is minimal. Best Buy likes to push LG TVs because the markup is significant.

Ken Garlock
11-28-2007, 6:38 PM
OK, someone tell me what the dash-one means in actual channel allocations. One reason we are going to digital TV is to free up the VHF channels and move the commercial TV to the UHF band.

So, what does the -1 mean in terms of normal channel assignments.

Pat Germain
11-28-2007, 7:12 PM
^^ The "dash-one" is currently a digital, UHF (and sometimes Hi-Def) simulcast of the VHF signal. I don't know what the actual frequency of say, "13-1" is, but a HDTV tuner recognizes it as just that.

As I understand it, the digital UHF broadcasts will soon replace the analog VHF broadcasts. The networks keep begging the FCC to give them more time, but the FCC is telling them to get on the stick and make it happen.

Once the VHF broadcasts are phased out, old VHF TV tuners won't be able to display broadcast television. A VHF TV will have to be hooked up to digital tuner. Standard analog UHF tuners won't work either. The tuner and the TV will not have to be Hi-Def, but there will have to be a digital tuner involved.

I expect your local Wal-Mart will be selling cheap, digital tuners which will allow analog TV's to display the new digital broadcasts. There's no way everyone with an analog TV is going to throw it away and buy a digital TV. And there are still lots of people in the US watching over-the-air TV broadcasts.

Ken Garlock
11-28-2007, 10:05 PM
OK Pat. I had suspected that what you said was the case. Thanks for confirming my thoughts. It was the -1 that led me astray.

I am a Dish network user, it would appear that they have to convert to the new channel scheme for their local channel option. In addition, it gives me a pain the posterior about having to pay extra for the HD channels.:mad:

Pat Germain
11-28-2007, 11:34 PM
Actually, the satellite providers have to expand their bandwidth in order to provide local channels in Hi-Def. Unlike the other channels, they have to provide separate channels for every broadcast area. They roll out the big markets first: New York, LA, Chicago, Miami... Then they move to the smaller markets. For example, I'm pretty sure they offer local Denver channels in Hi-Def, but not Colorado Springs.

This has nothing to do with the local, over the air broadcasts. The satellite providers take an uplink from the local stations, then downlink it to customers in that broadcast market. Thus, when I'm watching local, over the air broadcasts in Hi-Def, my satellite box is turned off. I'm just using my antenna.

I also don't like paying extra for Hi-Def channels. But at least there's more than a few now.

Ken Garlock
11-29-2007, 12:39 AM
Yes Pat, the Dish HD receivers have a jack on the back for a roof top local antenna for the digital stations. The nice thing about digital is that there are no ghost images or snow, either you got the signal or you don't.

IIRC, the FCC specified that the digital signals had to 'fit' in the same 6 MHz window/channel width that analog TV uses, hence all the signal compression. I am curious as to why the satellite provider would need to do more than install digital receivers at each up-link site. Of course the fan out of the new equipment will take some time to complete.

Jason Roehl
11-29-2007, 6:58 AM
Ken, the -1 is actually a sub channel. For instance, our local TV station broadcasts analog over channel 18, HD content over 18-1 (actually channel 11, but that's another story), and a full-time Doppler radar picture over 18-2 (non-HD, no audio). At least one of the Indy stations even has content on -3.

Karl Laustrup
11-29-2007, 8:43 AM
People,
I am about to buy a HD tv, something in the 42 inch range.

But what I have never seen is an explanation of what you NEED for HD viewing.

I know you need a tv, and I will have to upgrade the cable to get the HD channels.

But, do I need a receiver and 5.1 speakers? Do I need a new DVD player? What about my VHS?

Any recommendations for a website that might explain it all?

Help!
Mike

Mike, about all you need is a TV and an antenna. If you're lucky enough to be within range of local stations that broadcast over the "air" then you could get HD programming from those stations for free. NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX and PBS, here in Madison, WI, all broadcast over the air in HD.

Most people though, have cable or satellite. In each case you will need a digital box and pay extra for HD programming.

You only need a new sound system if you want to hear movies like you would in a theater. You do not need a new DVD or VHS player. They will work fine on a High Def set as they are.

I wouldn't buy a new DVD player until the war is over between the warring factions. Remember Beta and VHS? Well now it's Blu-Ray [Sony] vs. HD-DVD [the rest] over who's system will reign supreme.

Karl

Ken Garlock
11-29-2007, 10:51 AM
Ken, the -1 is actually a sub channel. For instance, our local TV station broadcasts analog over channel 18, HD content over 18-1 (actually channel 11, but that's another story), and a full-time Doppler radar picture over 18-2 (non-HD, no audio). At least one of the Indy stations even has content on -3.

Humm, interesting Jason. I guess I am getting hung up on terminology. To me a sub something is a part of the whole. You did hit upon the answer, a 'sub' channel is really just another channel somewhere else in the TV spectrum.

I think we have collectively beat this subject into submission.:D

Gary Keedwell
11-29-2007, 11:10 AM
Humm, interesting Jason. I guess I am getting hung up on terminology. To me a sub something is a part of the whole. You did hit upon the answer, a 'sub' channel is really just another channel somewhere else in the TV spectrum.

I think we have collectively beat this subject into submission.:D
http://sitelife.woodmagazine.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/2/809b3466-60eb-4c60-b29b-2d5e8ddc9a92.Medium.gifAmen.........LOL

Pete Simmons
11-30-2007, 5:40 PM
Pretty much set on a Sony LCD 40 or 46 inch. 1080P


Any thoughts on the difference between the V Series and the W Series?

as in KDL46V3000 KDL46W3000

Gary Keedwell
11-30-2007, 6:09 PM
Pretty much set on a Sony LCD 40 or 46 inch. 1080P


Any thoughts on the difference between the V Series and the W Series?

as in KDL46V3000 KDL46W3000
Pete...The only difference that I see is the W Series has 3 instead of 2 HDMI inputs and has 16,000:1 contrast ratio instead of 13,000. For that difference you pay around $200 extra. I don't know if there is any more difference or not. That's the Specs. I have in front of me.
My Sony 46" has only 7,000:1 but looks great to me.:)
Gary

Brett Elliott
11-30-2007, 6:17 PM
If cost isn't an issue (and it always is!), check out Pioneer's Elite line. They are absolutely wonderful. Even my wife noticed a huge difference between it and the offerings from Sony, Samsung, etc. Of course the 42" is about $3300. The 50" is over $4k.

Runco also makes nice monitors, but they're more expensive and don't come with tuners (but they also look fantastic).

If the other brands are Craftsman and Rigid, these guys are Powermatic and MiniMax.

IMHO
YMMV

Brett

Pete Simmons
12-02-2007, 2:54 PM
Went with the KDL46V3000.

Not quite sure how anyone could expect or get a better picture.

OK I know hook up a Sony Blue ray DVD and get a Blue Ray DVD then you would be viewing true 1080 (or another brand HD DVD). I am not ready for that yet.


When our cable guy was adding the HD box he was saying how all the companies are pushing to get to the next level. He thinks we will see huge changes in the next year. A lot more HD and maybe even some 1080.

Seems like the next big step is to send each customer only a few channels that he wants instead of just sending all the data down the pipe.

Once they do that it would free up lotza bandwidth to send the higher res data.

mike holden
12-02-2007, 5:52 PM
Karl,
Thank you.
I think I am very lucky in that my cable provider will give me a HD DVR and HD channels for 11.98 month.
I have found some HD tvs that still have speakers in them, so thats solved.
New technology is not yet to the point of simplicity.
Thanks again for the response,
Mike

Tim Morton
12-02-2007, 8:17 PM
Karl,
Thank you.
I think I am very lucky in that my cable provider will give me a HD DVR and HD channels for 11.98 month.
I have found some HD tvs that still have speakers in them, so thats solved.
New technology is not yet to the point of simplicity.
Thanks again for the response,
Mike

The speakers in most HDTV's are pretty poor...and at the very LEAST you should opt for a HTIB in order to really enjoy the total experience. JMO:o