PM 2000 -vs- PM 66?

[Rich Bybee]

Hi All,
This is my first thread! My name's Rich and I'm in Denver. I've been reading all I can lately, as I'm looking for new woodworking gear. I need a TS and would like a planer, and jointer to go along with it. I've really enjoyed browsing your site over the last week or so since I found it!! You folks have a great and informative forum! :)

I'm shopping for a TS and for the life of me I can't figure out why the PM 66 is selling for more dollars than the PM 2000 on Amazon.com.

If someone could educate me on this, I'd surely appreciate it!!

On the plus side, I just found out that the woodworkers show is in Denver this weekend and I'll get to go ogle all the cool stuff and actually be in the market for buying some things!! !! WOOT!

Thanks for any help!
Rich

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Welcome Rich.

The 66 is a little heavier and I believe it is still made in America. 2000 has built in castors, riving knife, etc.

[Eugene A. Manzo III]

The PM 66 is a heavier machine and is still built in the USA versus China
for the PM 2000 I think both Machines are very nice. just dont eat the paint on the one from China you might get sick :)

[David Weaver]

I'll bet if you took 20 of each and measured the flatness of the tables, the runout on the arbor flange, the accuracy of the adjustments ...

... you'd find the PM 66 fares a lot better.

Even without the riving knife, I'd take a PM66 over a PM2000 without question, and I'd pay several hundred bucks more for the pleasure, too.

[Chuck Burns]

When FWW did their test of 10" cabinet saws the measurements of the 2000 where better than the 66. The 66 doesn't have a riving knife; that alone would lead me to the 2000. I think I'm correct in saying the 2000 comes from Taiwan, not China. I think China is today where Taiwan was 30 or 40 years ago as far as metal and QC.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I'll bet if you took 20 of each and measured the flatness of the tables, the runout on the arbor flange, the accuracy of the adjustments ...

... you'd find the PM 66 fares a lot better.



Have you actually done this or read about anyone that's done this? Just curious as to the basis of this supposition.

[David Weaver]

How many saws did they measure? I'm guessing 1? I may sound like a cynic here, but I don't really trust FWWs reviews of saws as law, and I think their addition of reader reviews has been the best part of the magazine.

I would still take my chances on a 66.

I have a delta hybrid made in china, and my WW buddy has a PM 66.

He has no measurable runout at the arbor flange, and less than 0.001" at the edge of the saw plate on a forrest WWII TK (and who knows if that's the saw or the blade?). Every time we move anything on his saw to the stops, up or down, it's always dead on.

I think you're right - Taiwan is where it's made.

And you're right on Chinese quality. My delta hybrid (Made in China) is passable, but it's no marvel in terms of accuracy. I have no qualms about buying Taiwanese tools, but that's the last chinese tool I'll get until I start seeing opinions in spades about their quality improving.

Don't ge me wrong - I would trade my delta saw for a PM2000 in a second, but I never saw any PM66 QC issues like we've seen with PM2000 posts here and elsewhere - where runs of saws had some serious issues.

[David Weaver]

Done it only on one saw - dial indicator on arbor flange and at the edge of a forrest WWII TK 40 tooth. Saw plate runout measured less than 0.001".

This is on a 2001 PM66 with five horsepower.

Only started measuring other peoples' tools after I got a runout reading of 0.002" at the arbor flange and over 0.007" at the saw plate on a new delta hybrid (36-717) that I had delievered - hoping to find that was common.

I thought I had a serious problem when that PM was the first other saw that I checked. There is a history of posts on here from when I did it, I thought I was going to have to send my saw back until I called delta and they said their tolerance for arbor flange runout was 0.0025" (which seems like a huge amount to me).

Same thing with adjustments and stops - the wixey always has the PM66 within a tenth of a degree of wherever it says it is, and who knows if that's wixey error?

My delta hybrid isn't close to that.

Now, as per the 20 saw measurements, I can't vouch for doing that and don't know anyone who has. You, me and everyone else have to go with what's available to us. There was a rash of posts on the PM2000 several months ago - poor adjustment and with the saw going out of alignment with the miter slots by a significant amount. Have you ever seen a post like that about a run of PM66s? It's not like there's a dearth of them out there.

The 66 has been out for a long time, it's a known quality, and it has an undented reputation for (when new) being the most accurate hobbyist saw you can get. The PM2000 is newer and may get to that, but what information is available hasn't suggested that it's there yet.

[Nathan Conner]

When researching new saws, I looked at a floor model of the 2000 and 66 side by side. Aside from a slight paint difference, there were few variations except the most noticeable - the grind/finish on the top was WAY Nicer on the 66. The 2000 looked like it had been finished with 100 grit, where the 66 had the fit and finish on it like you'd get from a good Rottenstone rubbing. Shiny, different quality metal, lighter, brighter, smoother top. The motor was American made in the 66, and some off brand for the 2000.

I still went with the 2000. The price difference and the riving knife/mobility were the kickers for me. The only complaint I have is the integrated table isn't much - will need rebuilt at some point, and I've banged the holy crap outta my hands several times when I get those handwheels spinning to change height/angle - and a few other times wedging my hands between the blade-height-wheel and the underside of the table at a good cranking speed. There's always a LOUD 4-letter exclamation, a deep breath, and twisting around to use my other hand to slowly lower the blade back down again. And I wonder why, yet again, I forgot that on a 45 and full blade height, your hands WILL get wedged in there if you're not careful. Don't know if this is an issue with the 66, too.

Overall, there's a slightly better feel to the 66, and a slightly different running sound. But, I didn't feel that it was worth the 3-400 bucks, and didn't think I'd notice when I got home.

I was right. I don't. It's such a HUGE step up from my old C-man, I grin every time I look at it or turn it on or lean up against it with a cup of coffee, surveying my domain.

[John Thompson]

Done it only on one saw - dial indicator on arbor flange and at the edge of a forrest WWII TK 40 tooth. Saw plate runout measured less than 0.001".

This is on a 2001 PM66 with five horsepower.

Only started measuring other peoples' tools after I got a runout reading of 0.002" at the arbor flange and over 0.007" at the saw plate on a new delta hybrid (36-717) that I had delievered - hoping to find that was common.

I thought I had a serious problem when that PM was the first other saw that I checked. There is a history of posts on here from when I did it, I thought I was going to have to send my saw back until I called delta and they said their tolerance for arbor flange runout was 0.0025" (which seems like a huge amount to me).

Same thing with adjustments and stops - the wixey always has the PM66 within a tenth of a degree of wherever it says it is, and who knows if that's wixey error?

My delta hybrid isn't close to that.

Now, as per the 20 saw measurements, I can't vouch for doing that and don't know anyone who has. You, me and everyone else have to go with what's available to us. There was a rash of posts on the PM2000 several months ago - poor adjustment and with the saw going out of alignment with the miter slots by a significant amount. Have you ever seen a post like that about a run of PM66s? It's not like there's a dearth of them out there.

The 66 has been out for a long time, it's a known quality, and it has an undented reputation for (when new) being the most accurate hobbyist saw you can get. The PM2000 is newer and may get to that, but what information is available hasn't suggested that it's there yet.

And I have to agree with you, David. When they first came out they were hailed as the "coming of the Messiah" with the riving knife and built on mobility kit. And I am a hard-core fan of riving knives as I had one on a saw for 5 years.

But.. I also wondered why was the PM 2000 less expensive than the older 66 after they had to invest in re-tooling to allow adding a riving knife as the guts have to be changed? Then the rash of post you mentioned over several sites with a little quirk here and a little quirk there on the 2000. The quirks added up to several quirks.

Yesterday I personally crawled under a 2000 and the 66 sitting beside it at Stone Mountain Power Tool while picking up some filters. I did not do any run-outs or check for table flatness, etc. with machinist equipment. I just had a general look at the guts and took the controls for a spin around the block.

With that alone... the mystery of why the PM 66 cost more than the 2000 was answered for me. The 66 is heavier (more cast iron), had better mahining in general and that related to smoother controls for raise-lower.. angle.. etc. It didn't cross my mind to see if the motors were by the same manufacturer.

But from just causually going over both, if I were offered a free 66 or 2000 today... I personally would take the 66 as I only rip on a TS with CC done on a 12" SCMS making the riving knife less of a safety issue. I would simply throw away the plastic "thingy" and add an over-head crown guard which I can make in 30 minutes and achieve the same goal as again.. I only rip.

So... I see some merit in what you have said even though I did not do any mechanical checking with machinist measures, only a visual. But that was enough to explain to me personally why the 66 cost more.

Sarge..

[Douglas Robinson]

I owned an old 5 HP three phase PM66. I sold it about 5 years ago. It was a beast and could take a beating and come back for more! I didn't have 3 phase power at the time and putting it in was unfeasible so I sold it.

I bought a PM2000 this year. First the downside....There is NO downside! I love this machine! The riving knife is great! I got the low profile one as well for an extra $30. The cam lever attachment for the riving knife is brillant. The blade-lock mechanism that requires no extra tool is also well thought out. It comes with a real wrench for tighten/loosneing the arbor nut. Not some punched out piece of sheet metal. The internal dust collection chute is wonderful. The built in casters are a dream for my one-car garage shop. Fit and finish have been top notch. It passed the nickel test right out of the box. If I could change one thing I might make the access door out of metal and not plastic, but it does make removal easy during maintenance.

My 2 cents.:)

Doug

[Rich Bybee]

Thanks very much for the information! I didn't realize that the 66 was made in the US, and I missed that the 66 was slightly heavier.

I'm really very unsure which way I'm going to go with a saw, not even sure that I want a cabinet saw at this time. Like many of you, my shop space is at a premium. Still doing a lot of looking around and reading everything I can find. :)

Thanks again!

[Brian Clevenger]

Don't forget the used market. I was able to pick up a late 90s model 66 for about 1/3 of retail.

As far as which I would get. I've always wanted a 66. I didn't want a Unisaw, contractor saw, or made overseas saw. Just a good 66 from McMinnville, TN.

BTW, they don't make the 66 in the old McMinnville foundries any longer.

[Bob Feeser]

Yes PM66 is made in America, and PM2000 is built in Taiwan. I have the PM66 year 2004. The rep from Powermatic said the PM66 was the last item built here. He also mentioned that the guys building them were perturbed losing jobs overseas.

My year 2004 PM66 had no less than 6 assembly problems that I had to redo. One of them, was the attaching plate for the top, that is welded to, and sits on top of the cabinet. It has the slots for the bolts to go through, that hold on the top. The pieces were manufactured beautifully, but the guy who attached the plate, didn't even bother to align it with the base. It was far off enough, you could eyeball it better than that. So I had to remove the cast iron top, which is only a few bolts, and ream/enlarge the slots. That was neccessary to get the blade in perfect alignment with the miter slot. It wouldn't align without doing that.

I think that is the problem that FWW ran into with their review, when they rated the PM2000 higher than the 66 was...If you will notice they had a blade angle misalignment to the miter at .0025 for the leading side, and aft side of the blade. In other words their wasn't any variation, it was exactly the same. BUT it is not their job to re-manfucture the saw. They may have cocked it as far as it would go, but they weren't about to take the top off, and redrill the slot mounts.

I noticed on my Powermatic 8" jointer, and Hollow Chisel mortiser, both made in Taiwan, it came right out of the box, perfectly assembled and set. The 50 cents per hour labor rate definitely impacted the price of the jointer, it was $1800 here, and only $1100 after being made in Taiwan. As Powermatic puts it, we have quality control people over there, to make sure it is made to our specs. It's ashame they can't do the same thing over here. :-)

So I have to say that the PM66, with it's glassy smooth top, and fit and finish is one beautiful saw, after you go through the ag of rebuilding it. I really do believe it is the finest saw out there, or at least one of the best.

We recently had a big thread on the problems some creekers were having with their PM2000, in that, when they raised the blade all the way to the top, it cocked to one side. I mean it was off by .004 or something sizable. A replacement saw was sent, but it did the same thing. My 66 is perfectly true, no matter how high you raise the blade.

As far as the problem that FWW magazine had in the shootout, with blade/miter slot alignment, after reaming the attaching slots, I adjust the top the way Forrest WWII blade instructions say, with the rear of the blade, exactly .001 wider from the fence. I guess they don't want the teeth re-kissing the workpiece on the way out. Anyhow, that is how exact this thing is now. I got it perfect, not off by a thousandth, then let out the rear edge by 1 thou. By the way, reaming is easy, because it is only through the thicker sheet metal top plate, once you remove the cast iron top.

Gloat Warning: I was thinking at some point I would like to publish a video of the PM66 in action. Ok, this is a gloat, but when people come over, I take a shiny new penny, and park it on the top of the saw, out of the way of where the wind might move from the blade turning, actually a few inches in front of the blade, and off about 3 inches to the left of it, and then turn on the 5hp monster. It instantly clicks to full rev, just like clicking on a tape recorder. The penny just sits there. After about 20 seconds, enough to prove the point, but not to rub it in, I reach over and turn off the saw. I let it come to a complete stop, then while I am standing completely upright, not bending over, I puff an ever so slight puff of wind toward the penny, even though my mouth is 2 feet away or so, and the penny proceeds to fall right over. We are talking a little tiny puff. It takes so little, getting the penny to stand on end is a challenge, sometimes I invite my guest to stand it up for me. It emphasizes how fragile it is. The trick is to practice the blow to minimize it just right. It is amazing how little it takes to move it. Anyhow, enough of that.

As far as which one to get? They are obviously both great saws. If I had to do it over again, I would still get the 66, I love the polished top. I love the saw, I love the results it gets. Even the stops set at 90 degrees, and 45 degrees, are perfect. I practiced getting the feel just right, so when I crank it all the way to the stops, without forcing it, it aligns the blade just right, not even off by a tenth of a degree. I coat it with WD40, once in awhile, cause it really shows the shine, and prevents the rust. I know wax is better, but it dulls the surface too much.

You can't go wrong with either saw, as long as they have the fully raised blade angle problem worked out. I just was dreaming of a 66 for so long, I had to go with it. Of course the job was made even easier for me, because the PM2000 wasn't even available yet.

Here it is without the motor cover on it yet, when I first got it
http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/30906/2499085830100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

And here I am after getting the call on the cell phone, that it had just arrived, and the truck was waiting for me to get home. :D
http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/7201/2627520510100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

[Rob Will]

Excellent post Bob......as usual.

BTW: My PM 74 will stand up a dime:D but I have to do it with the motor running.

Rob

[Bob Feeser]

Excellent post Bob......as usual.

BTW: My PM 74 will stand up a dime:D but I have to do it with the motor running.

Rob

Rob,
Tell me about the PM74. Isn't that the monster machine, that I have heard of people using one at work, then when coming home to their 66 it seemed like a toy machine? What size blade does it take, and what size is the motor? 3 phase or single? How large is the cast iron top? What is the thickest stock you have gone through, without a cough? It must be a machine of the past, because I went on the PM site, and they did not have the model listed in their new lineup.
Bob

[Jeff Norri]

Seems like there is lots of old Unisaws and PM 66 out there. Last year I picked up a Canadian made 80's Unisaw for a song and rebuilt it. The rebuild took a weekend and I would put my "old" Uni up against any 3hp cabinet saw any day.

[John Hedges]

One thing that hasn't been noted is the larger size of the table on the PM2000. It really makes a nice work surface. I would have liked the Baldor motor and the Meehanite top but after comparing the two side by side I chose the 2000, and have been ecstatic with my choice. The riving knife really keeps the stock firmly against the fence the whole way thru the cut, and my saw was dead nuts on after I put it together and tuned it up. I also read about the trouble a few had with the alignment of the carriage as the blade raised but the problem has obviously been addressed, as my saw had a later serial number and did not have that problem.

[Lewis Cobb]

I am starting to hate this thread. Just when I think I have made my mind up on what cabinet saw to get ...BAM.... I am back on the fence again....

[C Scott McDonald]

Hey Rich,

Toolzone at 104th and Huron carries a lot of PM stuff. Stop by and see what they can do for you.

Scott

[Dan Lautner]

I would not buy a table saw without a true riving knife. It is almost impossible to have a kickback when the riving knife is installed. The pathetic American companies are only starting to add them now because SawStop is taking a huge share of the high end Cabinet saw market.


Dan

[Mike Henderson]

I would not buy a table saw without a true riving knife. It is almost impossible to have a kickback when the riving knife is installed. The pathetic American companies are only starting to add them now because SawStop is taking a huge share of the high end Cabinet saw market.


Dan
I absolutely agree. If you're going to buy a new saw (not used), get one with a riving knife.

Mike

[Lewis Cobb]

I would not buy a table saw without a true riving knife. It is almost impossible to have a kickback when the riving knife is installed. The pathetic American companies are only starting to add them now because SawStop is taking a huge share of the high end Cabinet saw market.


Dan


Dan - there's also the issue that it's being legistated upon them in the not too distant future. I was speaking with the rep from the Canadian made General tablesaw lineup just yesterday at a wood show here in Canada. He basically said that EVERYONE is going to HAVE to have a riving knife in a few years from now - it's going to be the law.

Cheers,
Lewis

[Dan Lautner]

"Dan - there's also the issue that it's being legistated upon them in the not too distant future. I was speaking with the rep from the Canadian made General tablesaw lineup just yesterday at a wood show here in Canada. He basically said that EVERYONE is going to HAVE to have a riving knife in a few years from now - it's going to be the law. "


It should not take a new law for these companies to take advantage of a huge safety feature that has been around in europe for decades. "The not too distant future" means more accidents that could have been prevented.

Dan

[Lewis Cobb]

"Dan - there's also the issue that it's being legistated upon them in the not too distant future. I was speaking with the rep from the Canadian made General tablesaw lineup just yesterday at a wood show here in Canada. He basically said that EVERYONE is going to HAVE to have a riving knife in a few years from now - it's going to be the law. "


It should not take a new law for these companies to take advantage of a huge safety feature that has been around in europe for decades. "The not too distant future" means more accidents that could have been prevented.

Dan

I agree with you. However, it seems that's the way it always works on this side of the ocean. Here in Canada we always seem to be lagging in the adoption of things until the US does it - that means we're in an even sadder situation that you folks for timely implementation !

Having said all this, the next saw I buy (in the next month or so) will be one with a riving knife :D

[Rich Bybee]

Hey Rich,

Toolzone at 104th and Huron carries a lot of PM stuff. Stop by and see what they can do for you.

Scott

Thanks Scott!

Actually I was just there today and bought a PM 2000 50", PM 8" HH Jointer, and PM 15" HH planer. They hooked me up with a 10% discount off of everything due to the woodworkers show being in town.

I expect to be a very happy guy in a few weeks when it is all delivered!!!!!:D

[john tomljenovic]

Hi, I always meant to follow up with with this but I just recieved my final replacement/solution last friday. I actually have both saws in my shop right now. So this thread seems a suitable place for a response.

I am the guy who started this thread on the pm2000:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=60038

I had a problem with my pm2000(s) heeling the blade when changing it's elevation. you know, you raise the blade to align it to the miter slots; lower to a working height then get tooth marks in the cut; perfectly normal and acceptable right??!!:rolleyes:

anyway all the pm2000s we had gone through heeled anywhere from .006" to .012". I went through three saws my self and the WMH guys even measured a couple at the warehouse to find a pm2000 for me that heeled less. they could not.

they did on my request measure a pm66 to compare and found it was in thier words "an imperceptible amount" so I went with that and exchanged for own. I would like to thank the good boys at Southern tool for providing that service and even WMH for the patience to see me though this till I was satisfied. Although they still never acknowledged that they may have a problem with the PM2000, which I find troubling.

SO the differences I observed.....

*the 2000 does have a bigger table and I will miss that. 2" deeper and 6" wider then the 66 with wings. fit of the wings is tighter on my 66, but the wings on the 2000 are actually flat, go figure.

*riving knife verses conventional splitter. although I always preferred a riving knife I guess I can still make a splitter work provided it is a good one. ie. biese, shark guard.

*the 2000 does have a bigger throat plate but the 66 still has more room for your hands/blades. all the extra room on the 2000 is the left of the blade, and has actual less space right of the blade. Huh?

*I don't know where every one says the PM66 is heaver. I must have the aluminum version cause its an easy 100 lbs lighter than the 2000. the shipping ticket says so and my back confirms it.

*the handwheels operate smoother on the 66 but the 2000 comes with nicer handwheels :D. the stops also feel way more solid with the 66 than the spongy feel of the 2000. although I don't rely on the stops so I am not sure that really matters. but the construction is different.

*the 66 comes with a baldor motor, which is nice. the Taiwanese motor that comes with the 2000 is fine . But I can easily bet the baldor will be more efficient and last longer.

*The 66 was easier to align than the 2000. maybe it is the three table bolts vs. four on the 2000. or tighter tolerances of construction. also when correcting for blade heel when tilting; I only had to shim the table .010" on the 66. with the three 2000s I aligned all required around .060" of shimming, not what you consider precision manufacture.

*now the 66 I got (when changing elevation) heeled .0025" at the back of the blade. not what you figure from Americas' greatest tablesaw but which I can accept at this point. the 2000s I had could not keep a blade drifting less then .006' and most were around .010". This is after a sample of Five saws with date codes 6 months apart.

This is enough for me to say the pm2000 is not ready for prime time. And the last comparison is enough for me to recommend the 66 instead. There seems to be plenty people who say their pm2000 is accurate, I just don't believe them. I got to go through too many samples to say it was a fluke.

Or a better idea would be steel cities pm66 clone the 35626. the one steel city saw I got to measure at a friends shop was within .002 of blade heel.at least they seem to give a damn. I am not sure the powermatic does anymore, what have they got to prove? they are powermatic.

[David Weaver]

Wonderful post - thanks for good summary of the hands-on experience.

[Bill Bryant]

I had a problem with my pm2000(s) heeling the blade when changing it's elevation. you know, you raise the blade to align it to the miter slots; lower to a working height then get tooth marks in the cut; perfectly normal and acceptable right??!!:rolleyes:

anyway all the pm2000s we had gone through heeled anywhere from .006" to .012". I went through three saws my self and the WMH guys even measured a couple at the warehouse to find a pm2000 for me that heeled less. they could not.

I've been having the same problem with my Delta 36-982 contractor saw and have concluded that it is the result of a cast iron bracket warping after the holes have been bored in it.

I have a feeling that Asian cast iron is not receiving a proper seasoning, and that a piece of Asian cast iron with two holes bored parallel in it will often end up with those two holes out of parallel by the time the tool gets to a customer's shop.

This would fully explain the problem mentioned here, and it certainly explains my problem (the same problem) as well.

[John Hedges]

There seems to be plenty people who say their pm2000 is accurate, I just don't believe them. I got to go through too many samples to say it was a fluke.

Well, mine is accurate. maybe I got the fluke, but I ordered mine when that thread was going on and I checked mine to death and was ready to send it back if I had the same problem. But the only time mine had any perceptible heeling is when it hit the top limit stop which is common to almost all tablesaws to my understanding, which is why it is recommended not to use them.

[Simon Dupay]

It should not take a new law for these companies to take advantage of a huge safety feature that has been around in Europe for decades.


Dan[/quote]



Actually, US companys have made saws with "riving knifes" (Olivers,Tannys and Northfields for exp.)

[john tomljenovic]

It should not take a new law for these companies to take advantage of a huge safety feature that has been around in Europe for decades.
Dan
Actually, US companys have made saws with "riving knifes" (Olivers,Tannys and Northfields for exp.)



I think that makes it even worse. US companies already incorporating the technology, but they decide we would be better off dropping it. sad indeed.

[C Scott McDonald]

Thanks Scott!

Actually I was just there today and bought a PM 2000 50", PM 8" HH Jointer, and PM 15" HH planer. They hooked me up with a 10% discount off of everything due to the woodworkers show being in town.

I expect to be a very happy guy in a few weeks when it is all delivered!!!!!:D

Good for you Rich! I have bought a lot of stuff from them and have never been disappointed with there service.

With stuff that heavy it is probably cheaper to buy it locally anyway in the long run.

Take care

[Tim Marks]

I would not buy a table saw without a true riving knife. It is almost impossible to have a kickback when the riving knife is installed. The pathetic American companies are only starting to add them now because SawStop is taking a huge share of the high end Cabinet saw market.

I think you are missing something important.

Tablesaws usually come equipped with a splitter (my "pathetic" ridgid TS3650 does), that serves the same function as a riving knife. The riving knife only comes into it's own when doing blind cuts, where you are not cutting all the way through the material, so the changing height of the riving knife matches the height of the cut in the material. If you have a splitter, you will have to remove it to perform a blind cut or dado cut.

I have only had to do this a handful of times (I generally rip dado on a router table by preference), and I am deadly carefully in those modes of operation (since my blade guard is attached to the splitter). Of course, during blind cuts it is less likely that the wood will close up and pinch the blade, causing kickback (and of course during a dado cut the riving knife is useless).

The real advantage is that since the user doesn't have to take off the splitter, he won't forget to put it back on, or doesn't have to waste time between cuts (if he is switching from blind cut to through cut repeatedly).

BTW, you can STILL get kickback with a riving knife if your fence is slightly misaligned and you pinch the wood between the blade and fence, or you crosscut without getting the fence out of the way and twist the wood slightly while making the cut, or... the list goes on. Trust me, it IS VERY POSSIBLE.

So why is the riving knife the litmus test for you? Do you have a TS yet?

I don't think PM put the riving knife on the PM2000 in response to SS competition. I think PM installed it because customers wanted it, since high end euro saws all have them, and adding it to the saw makes it appear that their saw is as high a quality as the euro saws. The PM2000 was being tooled up while SS was still on the drawing board.

What soured you on the American machinery companies? Why do you think they are "pathetic"? Hopefully you have more reasons for making that sweeping condemnation then the lack of riving knives (which Grizzly and Powermatic/Jet now offer).

[Jim Becker]

Tim, you are correct that a "splitter" will provide similar safety to prevent pinching as a riving knife, but a true riving knife is also different in that it "hugs" the back of the blade contour as the blade goes up and down. With a fixed splitter, the gap between the back of the blade and the splitter is variable and quite large when the blade is down low as it is for many touchy cuts.

The good news is that more and more saws are becoming available with true riving knives with more to come. And not just on the larger machines. There are at least two "portable" tables saws on the market right now with true riving knives. And like you, I believe it's market driven from several fronts; SS isn't the prime driver, IMHO.

[Pat Moy]

I own a PM66, which I bought new back in 1995; the saw was made in Tennessee. Saw cut fine for years, but I did noticed more and more burned marks as the years went by. I attributed the problem to a dull blade. The problem became intolerable around 6 months ago. I had the blade ( a Forrest WWII) sharpened, and must have tuned the saw at least 5 times. My saw was perfectly aligned, but the burning problem continued. Then by chance, I used the PM66 table as a flat reference surface for surface gluing two panels. After the glue dried, I noticed a slight warp in the glued panel. I was completely puzzled. I confirmed the warp with a straight edge, and subsequently checked table flatness with that same straight edge. What I found caught me by surprise. There was a .012" sag right in the middle of my PM66 cast iron table. I speculate the sag was caused by improper cast-iron aging prior to milling. I called PM tech support about the problem. The tech rep was sure that proper aging had been performed, and that the sagging should not have happened. Because of the age of my saw, the only thing the tech rep was able to offer was a small discount toward purchase of a new table. I didn't buy a new table. Instead, I had my table re-ground for $100 at a local machine shop. As it turned out, my arbor flange also had a .003" runout, which I think is acceptable. The machine-shop guy said he can take that down to less than .001 for $35, so I had that done as well. Now, my saw cuts perfectly again.

Overall, I've had good service from my PM66. But this whole episode with the table sagging really left a bad taste. I was in the market for an 8" jointer a few months ago, and was considering the PM 60B seriously until I read some negative comments in amazon.com; some owners were complaining about jointer-bed milling tolerances on their PM60B (http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B00020BNNG/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1). I ended up buying my first Grizzly machine based mostly on reviews and forum postings from other owners commenting on Grizzly's tight milling tolerances on their machine tops. I was not disappointed. My new Grizzly jointer bed flatness was less than .001". Whether or not that currently flat jointer bed will sag in a few years remains to be seen; you can be sure I will check again before the warranty runs out!

I think if I were in the market for a new 10" TS, I would take a very close look at the SawStop. Reviewers praise the SawStop's many safety features, and made positive comments about tight milling tolerances on the SawStop table top.

[Dan Lautner]

"The PM2000 was being tooled up while SS was still on the drawing board."

Wrong, the sawstop was on the market over a year before the PM2000

"What soured you on the American machinery companies? Why do you think they are "pathetic"? Hopefully you have more reasons for making that sweeping condemnation then the lack of riving knives (which Grizzly and Powermatic/Jet now offer)."

What soured me on these companies is the lack of quality and complete absence of innovation. Take a 50 year old design and have it made as cheaply as possible in asia to compete with the other company doing the same. What a joke these companies have become.


Dan

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

The 66 has none of the negative feedback that the 2000 has. I have heard a slew of negatives most connected with the wheel mechanism.

[Tim Marks]

Wrong, the sawstop was on the market over a year before the PM2000
I guess I did not make myself clear.

Yes, the SS beat the PM2000 to market by about a year (12/04 vs 11/05). But the designing and tooling up for production of the PM2000 started well before SS came to market. PM did not decide to add a riving knife to the PM2000 to play "catch-up" to SS; that decision and design work was started prior to SS coming on the market. I don't think that PM seriously regarded SS as a threat until well after they shipped their first product (there was much doubt about the "vaporware" SS right up until the first boatload of machines shipped).

What soured me on these companies is the lack of quality and complete absence of innovation. Take a 50 year old design and have it made as cheaply as possible in asia to compete with the other company doing the same.
My viewpoint is that I see that the quality and features of machinery available which I can afford has exploded in the last 20 years. Look at the sub-$1000 jointer from 10 years ago vs what is available now. Ditto with TS. The machinery that I can afford is much better now with more features then it used to be. Look at the change in grizzly machines from 1988 to now. 20 years ago, I would have had to settle for a 4" benchtop jointer. Now I can get a 8" aircraft carrier for a similar price. Innovation in the market place? New parallelogram jointers, new planers, spiral carbide blades, excellent 17-19" bandsaws at an affordable price. Show me a bandsaw from 50 years ago with the feaures of today?

[Dan Lautner]

"My viewpoint is that I see that the quality and features of machinery available which I can afford has exploded in the last 20 years. Look at the sub-$1000 jointer from 10 years ago vs what is available now. Ditto with TS. The machinery that I can afford is much better now with more features then it used to be. Look at the change in grizzly machines from 1988 to now. 20 years ago, I would have had to settle for a 4" benchtop jointer. "

I see your viewpoint. I prefer to buy the highest quality tools within reason. In your case of the bandsaw, I am happy to pay an extra $700 for an Agazzani instead of an asian/ american copy cat.

Dan

[Gary Keedwell]

Gee, precision ground granite top table saw seems pretty innovative to me. Surely, even a european tool snob could agree?:eek::rolleyes::D

PS. I'm only kidding.....no retaliation necessary : >)

Gary

[Mark Carlson]

Rich,

The rumor is that the 2008 General cabinet saw (350, 650) will have a riving knife. Generals are still made in North America I've never read a report of quality issues. I'd wait and see what General comes out with versus getting either powermatic now. If your in a rush I'd get the SS.
My 2 cents.

~mark

[Dan Lautner]

"Gee, precision ground granite top table saw seems pretty innovative to me. Surely, even a european tool snob could agree?

Just don't drop any clamps or metal tools on the top. Stone has a nasty tendency to crack with very little force.

Dan

[Chuck Burns]

Rich,

Were I you I would buy a saw with a riving knife. After using one I would insist on having one. If the budget will bear it take a serious look at the SawStop. It is better than the 2000 or 66. The fit and finish are top-notch and everthing is spot on.

[Tim Marks]

Just don't drop any clamps or metal tools on the top. Stone has a nasty tendency to crack with very little force.
I guess you treat your tools different then mine.:D I have never done that with a cast iron top...

But I do agree with you :eek:... I don't really agree with a granite top on a machine... just seems wrong. Plus, when Overnight express drops it, I don't think it will survive. On alot of really big machinery, they are using epoxy-granite compounds as machinery bases. It is easy to form, is way better then cast iron at absorbing vibrations, and the casting doesn't have to be aged. But I think granite tops should remain in the kitchen (or maybe as precision assembly tables).

[Rich Bybee]

Rich,

The rumor is that the 2008 General cabinet saw (350, 650) will have a riving knife. Generals are still made in North America I've never read a report of quality issues. I'd wait and see what General comes out with versus getting either powermatic now. If your in a rush I'd get the SS.
My 2 cents.

~mark


Rich,

Were I you I would buy a saw with a riving knife. After using one I would insist on having one. If the budget will bear it take a serious look at the SawStop. It is better than the 2000 or 66. The fit and finish are top-notch and everthing is spot on.

Thanks Mark and Chuck, but just a bit late. LOL :)
I took possession of the PM 2000 about 2 weeks ago. I'll admit that I haven't had a chance to start it up yet due to power issues, but those should get ironed out tomorrow.

I will say that the caster system on the PM2000 isn't the best. Apparently the wheels raise the saw up about 1/16" so you better have a pretty level floor!! My garage isn't "that" level, so when I want to move the saw it's more a matter of shoving the thing around rather than "wheeling it to where I want it to be". It's better than no wheels at all, but could use some improvement.

One other minor gripe is that the Rout'r'lift extension table tends to sag at one end or another. I'm hoping that once everything is installed (haven't installled the extension legs yet) everything will stay aligned.

It is pretty though!! :D