Good News and Bad News [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

John Keeton

11-15-2007, 2:08 PM

I am betting that of those that have contributed for 2008, most gave more than the $6 recommended. What is unfortunate is that there are so many people that think the internet, and everything associated with it is and should be free. I agree generally with that concept. However, what one gets from SMC is the opportunity to have comment and input from dedicated, dependable, and informed people that do not have a profit agenda. That just simply is not available on the net - period!! Although I am knew to this forum, and have not yet purchased a laser, I am amazed that so many want so much, for so little. Unfortunately, we see more of that today than ever before.

It seems that next year, we are going to be addressing the same question about where to go with the finances of SMC. To cast an early vote, I am in favor, should the need exist, that tiers of access be established based on contribution, or perhaps there is some way that a visitor could view the postings but be limited to only one inquiry. I would prefer to avoid commercialization by advertising as a means of support as I think we would see the quality diminish, and the "feel" would become less sharing and more suspicious as to where one's motive's lie. But, this is such a valuable resource that serious thought needs to begin now on how to address next November's situation. There is nothing gained by waiting until October to develop a plan.

Keith Outten

11-15-2007, 5:59 PM

Sandra Force

11-15-2007, 6:14 PM

I belong to a number of forums between laser engraving and other projects only EE has been as helpful as this group has. The money I spend here and there has been repaid so many times I can't believe it. Not only that but the people whom I have met online have been so helpful and nice that I enjoy dropping in. I am more than willing to opt in if you need to go to either a paid site or tier membership with advatages for those contributing to the fiscal end of SMC. Just please don't give up on us.

Luke Phillips

11-15-2007, 6:40 PM

The Creek has over 21,000 registered members, there are probaby a large number that have joined just to take a look and never return. Is there a policy to weed out members that, let's say, haven't logged in for 6 months?

I do see that there are some members that have over 2,000 posts to forums that have never contributed, and some that have not ponied up for a couple of years.

Those of us that use the forums on a regular basis and get benefits from the information probably won't get too upset to see it become subscription based in the future.

Barb Macdonald

11-15-2007, 9:58 PM

The Creek rules:)

Thanks for all the help, I'd gladly go to a subscription service, to keep the creek available as is.
Good luck, maybe after your Thanksgiving, people will feel more generous. (Us canadians celebrate earlier, gives the BORGS time to get set up for christmas. Takes longer to get stuff to the far north, although Santa lives closer:)
Still the best site I've EVER googled:)

Barb

Denny Rice

11-15-2007, 11:27 PM

John,

You right about people thinking that everything should be free on the Internet but it isn't so, for the most part everything is advertising based.

I am just about convinced that The Creek will be converted to a subscription based forum next year. Those who don't think The Creek is worthwhile won't have to worry about donating or visiting. I really dislike advertising on a public forum however that is how most are surviving these days.

.

Keith,

I agree with you 100%....If it comes down to being supported by advertising or a subscription base, I like the subscription base idea a lot more..I don't want to right click 100 advertisments or wait forever for them to load onto a page to get where I want to go. Come'on people its only 6 dollars a year, you spend more than that for coffee at Starbucks.

Gary Hair

11-16-2007, 4:02 AM

The people who complain the most are not going to stay and pay, and they are probably not very frequent contributors anyway.

If you really need to, I would go with the dual-level membership as suggested earlier. Non-paid could see a very limited area and ask questions of other non-paid members, paid members have full access to everything. Maybe non-paid would also be restricted from downloading images and files - that would be great motiviation right there. You can't even get a value-meal at Carl's Junior for $6.00 and SMC is non-fattening...

Gary

John Keeton

11-16-2007, 7:43 AM

Gary is right. I belong to a couple of sportsman clubs. The question of dues is always a hot topic. One of the clubs owns 200 acres of rural forest that includes a trap range, shooting range, fishing lake, and hiking trails. The dues were $30 - a year! The board voted to raise the dues to $40, and there was a mass exodus. But, at the next membership meeting, there were more new people wanting in than slots available. We accomplished two things - became financially solvent and got rid of the grumblers!! Not to mention bringing in some new folks with new ideas and energy.

I am not in favor of elitist clubs, but in this price range ($6 -$25) our blood hardly runs blue!! I am in favor of doing whatever is necessary to keep out advertising. If one doesn't think the value is there, then let them go somewhere else. I found the creek a little over a month ago, and it is a treasure of information and helpfulness. We cannot let that go away.

Mike Null

11-16-2007, 8:15 AM

I would rather see the advertising than the continual discussions about contributions. Nothing says you have to click on the ads.

Jerry Allen

11-16-2007, 10:00 AM

I agree with Mike.
Ads can be restricted to unobtrusive (no pop-ups or distracting graphics), relevant (no Viagra ads), and/or restricted to an ad forum.
A good analogy is the way PBS handles ads. Another analogy is the way PBS does their fundraising--once you have donated you must endure the harangue until the rest do.
This could, again like PBS, be balanced between donations and ads.

I think restricting content is also a good idea. Let those who don't want to donate leave. You don't get government subsidies and the internet is not free. It's just too hard on a grand scale to retain the total idealism.

Vicky Orsini

11-16-2007, 10:33 AM

I think the problem with ads is that they might lead to the feeling of bias (real or imagined) when discussing products / suppliers / manufacturers. And if someone has an opinion about one of the sponsors that is less than flattering, the forum admin have to take the heat from the sponsor, which might lead to censorship. I've seen it happen on other forums, not just laser forums. Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth. ;)

Jerry Allen

11-16-2007, 10:53 AM

Good point, Vicki.

Denny Rice

11-17-2007, 12:17 AM

I agree with Vicky on this issue. If I have a problem with a tool built by Delta and Delta is advertising on this site who is to say they cannot come in here and pressure the powers to be remove my post because they don't like it.:)

Mike Null

11-17-2007, 6:38 AM

There is merit to that argument but this is a censored forum. We have the TOS which sets down the rules we live by. Those who choose not to adhere to the rules may be censored or even banned from forum membership.

Realistically, those who would advertise with SMC, should SMC decide to go that route, would do so with their eyes wide open.

John Keeton

11-17-2007, 7:41 AM

Oftentimes, however, the motives of an individual aren't known. I have seen clear instances where a company "salts" a forum about it's product. Obviously, that could happen here, but I believe that the motivation to do so is much greater when one has advertising dollars on the line. Business is business, and it isn't always done ethically. I am still in favor of taking other measures with advertising a last resort. It seems that tiered membership or some restrictive use system would be the first option. Does statistical data exist on the number of contributors contributing greater than the $6 versus those that contribute the requested amount? Some of this data might be useful in formulating a plan and making some choices, although I suppose that is something that may need to be done by others.

Pat Kearney

11-17-2007, 8:27 AM

Hi Keith
On Nov 8th I contributed through paypal but my profile is still showing as member and not contributor. Did I submit it improperly? Just want to make sure you received it.

Thanks.

PAT

Jackie Outten

11-17-2007, 9:27 AM

Pat,

You made your contribution through your business and we had no way to tie it back to your name. I will update you now.

Thanks.

Jackie

Keith Outten

11-17-2007, 9:27 AM

The only number this year that is significant is the percentage of our Members that are choosing not to support The Creek. Only 7% of over 9,500 active Members have made a donation which is an extremely poor turnout.

At this point we will pay our bare bones expenses and that is all. The total donated is less than we have ever had, of course we still have 13 days left in this years fund drive so things could get better.

We have seen numerous people donate 25, 50 and even $100.00 this year. These are for the most part the same people who have been carrying the financial load here since October of 2005. Given our huge growth rate since last November I had hoped that the ratio of Members to Contributors would at least remain constant but it has declined.

The handwriting is on the wall folks, the majority don't want a Member Supported Community...they want free. The big issue for me is I cannot support a Community this large at the current pace as a volunteer. Last year we were much smaller and the time required was reasonable, since late last Spring it has become a full time job, Aaron is working on his Doctorate and Jackie is grading papers every night which leaves me to handle most of the work.

Before anyone suggests that I appoint more Administrators to help with the workload I wil tell you it won't work. People will not give up their free time for very long to take a job that kills their woodworking hobby, time with their family and work for so many that don't feel their contribution has value.

We will have to make some changes this year and we will have to consider all of our options before next November so we can make a decision concerning our fate here. I am still dead against commercial advertising because I personally don't like ads in my face or the idea of sponsors having leverage in areas of editorial content. The world doesn't need another advertising based woodworking forum.

John's comment about companies salting forums is true, it happens and we are always on the lookout for that kind of activity here. No doubt some of it gets by us but we try to view as many posts as we can and to track recurring posts that appear to be planted by commercial interests. This is just another of our day to day duties behind the scenes that for the most part goes un-noticed. We also have to constantly defend our server against attacks, the security issues and work that must be performed each month are major tasks. I could go on and on but I think the few people that will actually read this message are already aware of the work required to host The Creek.

It isn't the amount of money that is donated that is important, it is the fact that people will take just a few minutes of their time once each year to show their support for this Community. Even a 50 cent donation would be more than welcome as it shows that people care enough to spend just a couple minutes of their personal time to validate our efforts.

I will promise to continue the best I can this year but next November may be our last unless we can find a model that will provide for our needs and doesn't rest on just my shoulders alone. Aaron and Jackie have been dedicated and loyal supporting this Community for four years but their personal obligations right now are taking a serious toll on their ability to help with the constantly growing workload as we take on an average of 1500 new Members every month.

All of you folks who have been with us for a long time and those who have been so supportive will always have The Creek to visit and enjoy as long as I am able. You must understand that I can't continue to support tens of thousands of new Members and the thousands that continue to join every month.

:(

.

Pat Kearney

11-17-2007, 10:56 AM

Thanks Jackie, I never realized that.

Pat

Mike Hood

11-17-2007, 11:00 AM

I run two rather large boating forums (using vBulletin as well btw). My suggestion here would be to appoint moderators to each forum. This works very well in keeping the salting down.

I know many websites hope to generate income, but frankly it's not worth the work. Membership Only features will help... but they take away from the overall appeal in a big way.

Additionally, Google adsense is a good way to help make a site self sufficient if the throughput is high like you describe. I used to add banners until we reached our annual expenses, then turn them off. We don't need them at all now.

I'm not sure what your situation is here, but my ENTIRE expenses for the larger of the two sites was $829/yr for bandwidth and hosting. The other is only $128/yr. vBulletin software is only $160.

We're a large site also and have grown through this. Keep it simple and people will stay and you'll prosper. It's tempting to wanna make it a viable income, but I just wanted to encourage you to keep after it, but not to expect it to support you.

David Lavaneri

11-17-2007, 11:05 AM

Keith,

I'm not surprised by the lackluster response to the fundraising drive. Especially since you specifically urged people not to pay more than $6.00 per year.

If that suggestion was an effort to shame a larger number of people to contribute, obviously, it didn't work.

You're intensely devoted to this site and you don't want to see the number of people diminish as the result of changing to a subscription format.

Guess what? As the voice of experience, I can say that as soon as you make a mandatory charge for admission, no matter how small, a lot of people will leave, some never to be seen again.

Take it from me. That's the good news!

You'll be left with the people who truly appreciate what you're offering. For the most part, it will be a more professional crowd, consisting of people who are actively working in this industry and newcomers who are serious about entering the industry.

I should quickly add that, of those who leave in protest, a good number will return, once they find other sites lacking; and they will.

You mentioned in a earlier post that SMC has become a for-profit entity.

As such, why would you wait until next November to right what seems to be a sinking ship?

It's a Nike moment. Just do it!

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

PS - I contributed this year, but I'm showing as a 2007 contributor. Probably because the contribution was made under my business name.

Keith Outten

11-17-2007, 11:31 AM

Thanks David,

I know that you have been through something similar and are aware of both sides of the issue. For the record I didn't start SawMIll Creek as a business venture and had fully intended to shut it down on October 2005 when our ISP business closed. I agreed to continue because so many friends asked me to keep The Creek online. Compared to today we were very small back then and I have not been prepared for the kind of growth we have seen this year.

We aren't sinking but we are in dire need of some changes. I had hoped that there might be enough financial support this year to hire someone to take over as the Forum Administrator so I could get some relief but that isn't going to happen. I would be happy to just scale back a bit and gain some control of our unbelievable growth rate.

I have suggested to our Moderators that we close the doors for awhile and only accept new Members when they had a reference from an existing Member but our Staff hates the idea.

No matter what I am going to keep my word for the coming year. The Creek will remain very much as it is now but I will be planing on major changes for November 2008. I think I can handle a smaller system, something in line with what you have done and I consider that to be the best path for us next year.

I am going to periodically turn on and off new registrations here folks for a period of time in an effort to throttle our growth rate.

.

Keith Outten

11-17-2007, 11:45 AM

I run two rather large boating forums (using vBulletin as well btw). My suggestion here would be to appoint moderators to each forum. This works very well in keeping the salting down.

I know many websites hope to generate income, but frankly it's not worth the work. Membership Only features will help... but they take away from the overall appeal in a big way.

Additionally, Google adsense is a good way to help make a site self sufficient if the throughput is high like you describe. I used to add banners until we reached our annual expenses, then turn them off. We don't need them at all now.

Mike,

I work a full time job during the day and have a reasonably successful part time sign business going when I can find the time to get in my workshop. I'm not wealthy but I don't need to make money from The Creek...I won't work here any longer for free. Continuing to work for people that won't contribute toward our financial needs has to stop. Effective immediately I will only be able to provide for those who have made contributions. This may sound harsh but it is nothing but cruel reality...there are way to many people here for me to provide administrative support.

We have always had Moderators assigned to each Forum, it would be impossible to operate without them.

.

.

Bill Cunningham

11-17-2007, 1:04 PM

Another site I belong to, (a hobby related one) simply turns off the search function for non contributors.. Search uses a lot of resources and 'should' be restricted to contributors. After non contributing members have been been helped with their particular problem, (in the good usual spirit of the creek) they can then be directed to the donation page where they can donate, and then 'search' for previously answered questions, and the incredible amount of general information available. After that, they may get the idea.. Or at least 'some' will

Mark Winlund

11-17-2007, 1:06 PM

A couple of suggestions: send an automated "thank you" to everyone that contributes.

Also, you can't be all things to all people. You have to decide what type of member you are going to appeal to. You have the professionals, with many years in the engraving and sign business. You also have the "newbies" that start by saying:

"I just bought a laser. What do I do next? It doesn't turn on. I want to make lots of money, and only work on Saturdays. Please be specific, and send me a list of steps for my machine, and how to be successfull."

I think the forums should be oriented towards the first group, and not the second. I am constantl amazed by the number of new members that jump in without having ever done any research or reading about engraving or lasers, and expect to be spoon fed until they are rich.

Also, If there are no posts by someone for six months, drop them from the membership. The forums have to work by participation. The membership rolls (and the amount of work to keep the forum running) would drop dramatically.

Make the forum fee based... say $1 per month. No professional is going to quibble about this, especially if there is enough usefull content. (I dropped another engraving forum when they insisted on fees. The reason? Not enough useful information... too many beginners, too much politics, etc.

The forums are a business tool. No more, and no less. Like any other business tool, I won't buy it unless it helps my business. This one does. It is why I contributed.

A side note: I think the policy on links is a little draconian. Links to ebay items related to our business should be allowed as well as links to engraving suppliers. You don't have to click on the link.

Mark

Matt Meiser

11-17-2007, 1:50 PM

Keith, I hate to see things change, but clearly they must. I say why not make some changes now:

- add advertising for non-contributors. I know you don't like it and I know you feel that you promised us you wouldn't do it, but frankly you only promised it if there were contributions.
- add a "nag" screen for non-contributors, if that can be done easily.
- make some forums read-only to non-contributors
- turn off image posting by non-contributors which should cut bandwith and/or increase contribution
- automate contributions, if that can be done with a vBulletin add-in relatively easily.
- black out the forum for non-contribtors occasionally to remind them what a great thing they are missing.

I'm concerned about turning off the search resulting in an increase in posts that wouldn't have been made if the search was there.

Keith Outten

11-17-2007, 2:14 PM

Bill, Mark and Matt,

Thanks for the great input, your suggestions will be put to good use. As we transfer to a subscription based Forum our TOS will definately be revised to reflect Comunity needs. I realize there will be consequences for making these kinds of changes but I'm sure now that the benefits will by far outweigh what we may lose.

.

Bill Cunningham

11-17-2007, 2:23 PM

There are many 'other' forums around that wont allow the showing of pictures, or downloading by clicking links unless you are 'registered' .. In this case 'registered' can mean 'contributor' Even the regulars contributors that might be a little slow sending in their yearly contribution will get the hint when pictures and download links are suddenly unavailable to them.. The shear number of downloads available here make this site the best bargain around for a measley 6 bucks!!! Then, when the inevitable statement "I can't see the pictures" or "Why can't I see the pictures" comes up, then they can be directed to the donation page..
Sort of like the old saying "Grab them by the ..:rolleyes:.. Their hearts and their minds will follow"

Mike Hood

11-17-2007, 3:34 PM

Kieth;

Please don't take this the wrong way. It's certainly not meant to be personal. I've just been down this road myself.

We disclose our expenses openly, and as the group sees the ability to control their community, they answer up pretty quickly.

Administering a site like this can be a chore, but too many people know what hosting fees are these days, and the associated costs. People will pay to be banner free. People will pay to sponsor in other areas. It just has to be thought out and clearly laid out.

Bob Childress

11-17-2007, 3:57 PM

Kieth;

. People will pay to be banner free. .

Apparently not, actually. :(

Keith Outten

11-17-2007, 4:59 PM

Mike,

I think Bill is right and I have just about given up on the current model. A small percentage will pay and tens of thousands will not and there isn't anything I can do to change it.

I expect that 99% of all woodworkers could easily afford 6 dollars per year but they choose not to contribute. What it costs me to run SawMill Creek isn't just about bandwidth and software costs, the real cost is labor and I can't provide it for free anymore so a change is coming. We will lose some people which is to be expected but our labor costs wil drop dramatically which is a necessity.

I fully expect The Creek to return to a smaller Community that will require less time to manage...even to the point that I can do it as a volunteer. I don't mind volunteering my time, my track record here proves that. What I do mind is The Creek becoming a full time job without the benefit of financial compensation. Rather than shut down The Creek I prefer to reduce the number or people that I must support. The easiest way to do this is to convert to a pay to play model.

I am positive that I can keep our Contributors here happy and provide a first class forum without advertising. I can answer contributors email and Private Messages and help them when they need assistance but I can't possibly administer to tens of thousands of people with volunteer manpower.

.

Niklas Bjornestal

11-17-2007, 5:57 PM

- add advertising for non-contributors. I know you don't like it and I know you feel that you promised us you wouldn't do it, but frankly you only promised it if there were contributions.
I think that is a good idea, specially if its google adwords ads. I "like" ads at forums if they are positioned well on the screen (eg. dont get irritating) and are relevant to the current topic.

- add a "nag" screen for non-contributors, if that can be done easily.
Whats a nag screen? Is it some kind screen that shows when you enter the forum? If so, make it so that it dont show during the first 30 days for new members, after that make it so that non contributors have to wait maybe 1 minute before getting access to the forum.

- make some forums read-only to non-contributors
- turn off image posting by non-contributors which should cut bandwith and/or increase contribution
Thats really stupid... even non-contributors might have useful things to write.

- black out the forum for non-contribtors occasionally to remind them what a great thing they are missing.
Personaly i would never donate to a forum that punish members that dont donate.

One thing that might help to get contributions is to allow contributors (and only contributors) to have a link to there webshops in their signature.

Peter Zacarelli

11-17-2007, 6:15 PM

I sincerely believe that if The Creek starts charging membership then the feel of this wonderful forum will forever change! I paid a membership fee on another "laser forum" and it just never felt good even though I have forked over much more money to The Creek but that was my choice - to pay for something I felt deserved my support.
So come on everyone, chip in a couple of bucks, it's the least you can do for FREE information that you get from this site.

Kim Vellore

11-17-2007, 6:56 PM

I was just going through the postings and did not see many folks with the other point of view than being surprised why people do not contribute. Here is my thoughts with some of your comments.

“I am just about convinced that The Creek will be converted to a subscription based forum next year. Those who don't think The Creek is worthwhile won't have to worry about donating or visiting. I really dislike advertising on a public forum however that is how most are surviving these days”

It is the people who make the forum and this kind of thinking will make it like a preferential club. You should make it inconvenient to folks who have not contributed but not stop them.

“However, what one gets from SMC is the opportunity to have comment and input from dedicated, dependable, and informed people that do not have a profit agenda. That just simply is not available on the net - period!!”

So you should not be expecting the “dedicated, dependable, and informed people” to pay to give their inputs. It is like you got to give money to donate blood…

“I do see that there are some members that have over 2,000 posts to forums that have never contributed, and some that have not ponied up for a couple of years.
Those of us that use the forums on a regular basis and get benefits from the information probably won't get too upset to see it become subscription based in the future.”

Again missing the point the person with 2000 posts, just imagine the amount of time he/she has put in to contribute to the forum, either be asking a question or answering, they are both important for a healthy forum. That is the person you don’t want to loose from the forum

“The handwriting is on the wall folks, the majority don't want a Member Supported Community...they want free. The big issue for me is I cannot support a Community this large at the current pace as a volunteer. Last year we were much smaller and the time required was reasonable, since late last Spring it has become a full time job”

You need more volunteers

“Before anyone suggests that I appoint more Administrators to help with the workload I wil tell you it won't work. People will not give up their free time for very long to take a job that kills their woodworking hobby, time with their family and work for so many that don't feel their contribution has value.”

You should try it, There are a lot of passionate people here I have seen them take a lot of time out of their hobby family and work to contribute. I know they will be more than glad to volunteer and make this forum grow.

“It isn't the amount of money that is donated that is important, it is the fact that people will take just a few minutes of their time once each year to show their support for this Community. Even a 50 cent donation would be more than welcome as it shows that people care enough to spend just a couple minutes of their personal time to validate our efforts.”

What more validation do you need than the creek growing 10 fold, Lot more people contributing. Again it is the people in the forum, you need more joining and more contributing.

“We aren't sinking but we are in dire need of some changes. I had hoped that there might be enough financial support this year to hire someone to take over as the Forum Administrator so I could get some relief but that isn't going to happen. I would be happy to just scale back a bit and gain some control of our unbelievable growth rate.”

Please put a volunteer request word in the forum you will be surprised how many will want to support you.

“I have suggested to our Moderators that we close the doors for awhile and only accept new Members when they had a reference from an existing Member but our Staff hates the idea.”

You have a good staff team

“I am going to periodically turn on and off new registrations here folks for a period of time in an effort to throttle our growth rate.”

You should realize this growth is great, you don’t want to cut that. For all you know you could be bought over by Google.

”I work a full time job during the day and have a reasonably successful part time sign business going when I can find the time to get in my workshop. I'm not wealthy but I don't need to make money from The Creek...I won't work here any longer for free. Continuing to work for people that won't contribute toward our financial needs has to stop. Effective immediately I will only be able to provide for those who have made contributions. This may sound harsh but it is nothing but cruel reality...there are way to many people here for me to provide administrative support.”

It is pretty harsh, Again you are missing the point, The real contributors to the forum are the experienced and selfless individuals who take their time to contribute to the forum.

If you are really pressed for time please post a line in the forum requesting for your replacement you might be surprised how many volunteers you get, you will have to spend time to filter out.. If you want you could also train an another volunteer to take over this forum. There are a lot of folks who would love to volunteer to be in your position to support a world wide forum that is growing as big as this. There are many options than to force or cut off the good people in this forum.

Keith,
I am not belittling your work, you have doing a great job, this forum exists thanks to you and your team, but it is just your view of the future I am not agreeing with. I hope you find a different way of making it work for all rather than cut off growth to the forum.

I had speak out my mind in whose ever side/favor it is, that’s what makes this a great forum.

Kim

Michael Kowalczyk

11-17-2007, 8:11 PM

Hey Keith,
It is a shame that only 7% have stepped up to the plate but I agree with "pay to play". It seams that over 90% may be infected with the "Entitlement Syndrome". I would have thought, at a minimum, that the 80/20 rule would have clicked in by now but not even halfway yet.:(

Dave said a lot of what I was going to say and agree with him with a few words added. Most of the ones that will leave because they don't want to contribute a meager .50 cents a month to have access to a wealth of information and experience probably won't come back because they want a free ride. If they are just a hobbyist I can understand but "ANYONE" who has used ANY information from this forum and profited from that info should not balk at making a very reasonable yearly contribution.

Keith, Just out of curiosity, which part of the forum has the highest % of contributors? general woodworking, Turners, Laser or can you tell?

Also if it goes to a limited access/pay to play, will this effect how search engines will place posts? I see SMC posts in the top 10 all the time but rarely see any other laser forum show up when Googled.

Scott Shepherd

11-17-2007, 8:23 PM

Everyone keeps mentioning in their posts that we need to all pony up, but in my short searching around, there are a couple of obvious things. First, most authors in the laser area are Contributors, so asking people to pony up who are the people who already ponied up isn't going to solve the problem.

Two, some of the most knowledgeable people on this laser section who we ALL learn from and ALL ask questions are not contributors. Would everyone here be happy if the smartest people on the forum left? Be careful what you ask for, or either allow Contributors to buy memberships for those people.

Look around, you'll see what I'm talking about. Just as a for instance, some of the tech support folks from laser companies are on here and they help people on weekends, nights, and go above and beyond for some of us. Yet they aren't contributors. Are we willing to give that up? I'm not, and I'll gladly cough up the $6 extra to keep some of those folks around.

Just my opinion. I believe the laser section has a much higher contribution rate than some other areas. Now, if we could get people to follow our lead :)

Pat Kearney

11-17-2007, 9:38 PM

First I think this site is great and was the reason I purchased a laser engraver - reading through the threads took away some of the unanswered questions that I had floating around in my mind. If it were a site that I could have only been invited to then I would never have been introduced to such a great group of people and never had the great satisfaction of owning my own laser engraver. For this reason I do not believe an invitation only site would be the way to go.

Second I just started contributing this year because I read something Keith had typed regarding the costs associated with running a site and I never realized it before. I only contibuted $10 because I read the $6 amount and figured I would contibute a few dollars extra. I would gladly contrbute more if I thought it would keep the Creek running. The knowledge shared by Keith and the many others is well worth it to me. I suggest that a set amount is required, $12-$24 per year maybe?

I do not agree with not allowing people who do not submit to any threads for a long period of time. I know in my case I read the creek faithfully several times a day but between working a full time job, raising a young family, involvement in the community, and running a home-based business I just don't get a lot of time to spend at typing, not to mention that usually someone has already answered the question before I even get a chance to read it. Sometimes months will pass before I type anything.

I think a business model of allowing anyone to be a new member but place a limit on the amount of time they can be a non-contributor, say 2 months, after which time they have to make a decision to pay up. They may get around this by creating a new acct every three months but to discourage this from happening I agree with limiting their ability to view and download files during this 2 month period.

Ultimately Keith the decision will be up to you and I agree with you whole heartedly, you cannot continue to support an extremely large and growing group of people for nothing. I believe a mandatory, reasonably priced, annual fee will help to offset your costs and limit the qty of people who you need to support - but you should still allow new people to view and join as this will help you attract and retain those who will add value.

Thanks and keep up the great work.

Pat

Peter Zacarelli

11-17-2007, 9:57 PM

Well said Kim. I am not a great writer/speaker and you said what I was sort of thinking.

Thinus Rabie

11-17-2007, 11:52 PM

Hi Keith & Team ,

I have been following the fund drive , and the stats 7% of 9500 members that contributed. It just is not enough to sustain the Creek it seems.

I have a very radical thought , but obviously do not know if it is possible , or even if you & the Team would consider something like this.

We have two sides of the coin it seems , of which the one side is the members that feel they do not want to contribute for their own reasons. The other side is the the members that do contribute , which feel the same as you & the Team regarding advertising .

I personally found that the knowlegde that makes the Creek so amazing , in fact lies within both the unpaid members and the current contributors. Therefore my thoughts are that it would be sad to loose either of the two groups.

Yet I feel that you & the Team should not only break even , but get kindly rewarded for your efforts over the past couple of years, and obviously for the future. The Creek should therefore in my point of view be run as a bussiness to sustain itself in the future.

Now my radical thought to keep both groups happy is as follows. Why not bring in the advertising part , yet design the Creek in such a way that it can run in two levels. The one level where the unpaid members get to see all the advertizing , but the contributors are free of the same or choose to have the option of being able to either see the advertising or not.

I really do not even know how difficult it might be to do something like this , but I know in todays world everything is possible.

This might sound silly to some of the folks out there, or maybe not , I know you can never keep everybody happy , and that is why I suggest this as a radical thought.

Keith , you and the Team deserve to be rewarded. Everybody gets older , and the word "passive income" is always nice to have in a persons vocabulary , especially if it is combined with the word "sustainability".

It would be nice to hear what the thoughts are of the people out there , and especially what the Sawmill Creek Team think of the same. A very good friend of mine always say when a new idea crosses his way " I will put it in my pipe and smoke it for a while , and then tell you what I think".

All the best
Thinus Rabie
South Africa

Mike Hood

11-18-2007, 10:34 AM

I run two VBulletin forums myself. It's easy to setup Groups (non-contributing versus contributing... or any other) and a rolling banner manager.

Then you build advertising banners around those groups. It accomplishes two things.

1 - Contributing members feel as though they have something for their money as opposed to non-contributors

2 - Your advertising base begins to grow.

You really don't want to look at advertising as a bad thing necessarily. You could set up seniority systems so that long-time members still can participate without the banners for a time, and with a large userbase, you have something a sponsor would like to pay for.

Even banners for the Creek itself would work. I'm sure there are many companies that would love to trade small banner rotations for raffle items or other fund raisers.

Growth is inevitable, but if you want income (as opposed to charitable contributions) then you need to think that way. Google adsense, banners, even pop-ups (God I hate those though), are big money makers. Targeted marketing is huge.

Just in this forum alone I can think of better than a dozen that would be approachable:

Epilog
Universal
Trotec
Red Sail
Shop Bot
GCC
Sign Warehouse
Rockler Tool
McMasters
VersaLaser
LaserBits
Jamison
Certec
Chewbarka
Laserbuzz
Lasertile
Engravers Network
A&E magazine
Engarvers Journal

And a tastefully designed banner isn't offensive. It pays better than contributions, and MANY of us would actually use them. (Especially if they lead you to a site discount. MANY offer free shipping, or 10% off orders when coming in through a link.

David Harvey

11-18-2007, 10:41 AM

Hey Keith, I just donated $50.00 for the cause. I had to wait for my PayPal verification process to get to me in the mail (what a pain that was).

Hope it all works out ok and thanks for a great site!

Zvi Grinberg

11-19-2007, 7:55 AM

I personally do not mind which way would eventually be taken.
I don't like ads, I like open forums, some are free and I like them, some are not and they are not fantastic.

I'd like to see random by-passers and I enjoy meeting constant residents. I hope discrimination would not evacuate the place.

I therefore decided to donate 13$ this year. For 4 different reasons

My lucky number is 13
One membership (6$) for the benefit I get from the forum and since I want to keep it alive
An additional membership (6$) to contribute keeping ads out of this place
Donating for (instead of) a symbolic annonimous member to support the spirit of the forumI came here not long time ago. I appreciate the value and I'd recommend that others will contribute and benefit from this great place.

Zvi Grinberg
CALIBER Engineering and Computers Ltd
Israel

Ed Newbold

11-19-2007, 11:07 AM

A little clarification please. Is this a call for donations in addition to a "$6" subscription fee or what? I want to help but don't understand exactly what to do: pay for a subscription or donate.

Thanks for your advice,

Mike Null

11-19-2007, 11:31 AM

Ed

The $6.00 amount is the suggested donation. There are some who donate more to help subsidize those who do not or cannot contribute.

There is no fixed amount required and everything is voluntary.

Doug Jones from Oregon

11-19-2007, 11:52 AM

Now that Keith has made it clear that he expects to be paid for his efforts I think it is only fair that we know just how much he expects us to pay him.

Doug

Stephen Beckham

11-19-2007, 12:13 PM

Doug,

Not to turn this thread sour like the other Thread on this subject, but I'd rather talk about it in terms of relativity. Hoping to keep it civil but make my feelings known...

Enough Versus Not Enough is what I worry about. I don't need promises from him that this service will still be here because 7% are paying the brunt... Before you think I'm casting stones - I didn't contribute in 06 - not sure why - I had the funds, just didn't do it.

But if we start asking how much... And start talking about fair... What are we going to do next? Ask that the stated amount be further split in half for him and Jackie? It's not like it's a pyramid scheme where everyone pays a dollar and he's on top.

My customers are not allowed to come in my store and ask how much my expenses are before they buy my products. We may all be friends here, but let us not forget - there is a certain relationship that must be maintained between a Service Provider and Service User.

Keith (and other admin) - if $6 is not enough for this service and we want to keep it ad-free. Set the subscription amount needed/desired. I'll continue to pay. Don't bother to tell me your salary and why - just keep the creek running.

Matt Meiser

11-19-2007, 12:30 PM

Now that Keith has made it clear that he expects to be paid for his efforts I think it is only fair that we know just how much he expects us to pay him.

Doug

$6 each. That's what they've asked for for a long time.

Ed Newbold

11-19-2007, 12:41 PM

I just sent my contribution via PayPal. Count me in.

Thanks very much,

Rodne Gold

11-19-2007, 2:31 PM

I think Kim nailed it.

John W Richards

11-19-2007, 6:22 PM

Since I have been lurking here for 2 years, here is my dues for both years.

Keith Outten

11-20-2007, 12:37 AM

Now that Keith has made it clear that he expects to be paid for his efforts I think it is only fair that we know just how much he expects us to pay him.

Doug

Doug,

As Matt said 6 dollars is the suggested donation but you can send any amount you feel is appropriate. The idea is that anyone can afford 50 cents per month and there are so many Members here there shouldn't be any problem funding this site, providing for our labor costs and raising funds to make improvements.

If you purchase a magazine subscription for one year you get a magazine every month, why do you care how many people purchase subscriptions? If you feel the value of a subscription is reasonable you make a decision, the same applies here except you get to choose how much you donate.

There have been some valid points brought to light in various threads recently, here are my thoughts.

In October 2005 I was asked by our Members to keep running The Creek rather than shut it down when I closed Hampton Roads Online. This Community promised to provide financial support if I would keep The Creek online and keep it advertising free. Jackie and I had to assume a very large bank loan in order for us to assume ownership of SawMill Creek, this was a major risk for us but we did it gladly because so many here wanted us to continue and John Bailey spearheaded a "Save The Creek" fund drive that demonstrated an incredible amount of support.

Again, in October of 2005 Jackie and I had our fill of running commercial servers 24 hours per day 7 days per week and it was a relief for us to look forward to getting our lives back. Instead of us making a clean break we agreed to host this site, assume the legal risks and continue to run a 24 hour per day 7 day per week service. Since then we have kept our promise, however today The Creek has gotten so large it is not a hobby or service that we can run as volunteers. In fact our growth rate in the last 12 months has been over 250% and it continues at the rate of 1500 new Members per month and climbing.

How in the Good Lords name will we be able to handle 28,500 Active Members by this time next year if our rate of growth remains at the current pace? Our current server is less than 12 months old and we figured it would easily handle the load here for 2 to 3 years, at our current rate of growth we will slow to a crawl sometime in the next 6 months. Not only will we need to add additional server capacity we may need to double our bandwidth.

If you think I am worried your right, we are not prepared for this kind of growth and we won't be able to provide for a Community as large as The Creek will be in 6 months on a shoestring budget.

Many people think they have the all answers but they might consider that there is more going on here than they can imagine. Even if we set aside our Administrative labor costs it is possible our growth rate will destroy SawMill Creek in just a few more months, I just don't know.

.

Rodne Gold

11-20-2007, 2:57 AM

Keith , from a members point of view - a closed or slow forum is way worse than advertising and still having a free flow of info.
I do not see why advertisements would be evil - we see em daily in newspapers and magazines , billboards etc and its a perfectly acceptable way of subsidising a publication - some of us actually like em , shows whats new and promotes competition.
You can choose to ignore them or respond , as you wish.
Sensitively/discrete placed Ads along with donations , knowledgable contributors, fund raisers and a decent moderation team can make your life easier and solve financial issues.
Would be a pity to see ANOTHER laser forum go west.(albeit its only part of sawmill)

Keith Outten

11-20-2007, 8:21 AM

Rodne,

Clearly we are going to have to do some research and make some very serious decisions this year. I don't mind admitting that I don't have a heck of a lot of experience in this area and I am a bit overwhelmed concerning our unbelievable growth rate. In November 2006 our total number of registered Members was at 9,000, today we have over 9,500 active members and the total registered here is close to 25.000 people. The number of Guests we host on a daily basis stays very close to the number of Active Members and we don't have any real data concerning Guests other than the number we see online every day.

If we make an assumption that Guests equal Active Members we are then serving 19,000 people at our current server load. Our new server has plenty of horsepower to handle the existing load and to grow but at the current rate we will consume our reserve capacity in no time. Bandwidth consumption is more difficult to analyze but I am reasonably sure that our pipe is the weakest link right now and I believe our server will handle more traffic than our pipe.

The growth rate here would normally be a dream come true providing we had a business model with plans to support our end. The problem is our end is totally dependent on donations based on decisions we made in October 2005 which seemed logical at the time and in fact conservative. The last 12 months have thrown us a major curve, we could never have dreamed this would happen so we don't have plans in place to accommodate either the hosting issues or the labor required to meet this years expected growth. The labor issue is already critical, I cannot keep up with 9,500 Active Members on a daily basis and it would be extremely rare for even a professional system administrator to service this many users, the norm in my experience is about 300 people on a local area network. While I will agree the two situations aren't exactly the same they aren't as far off as many would think.

I worry in advance because I dislike having to go into a crisis mode when the walls start tumbling down. Last year we started the Contributors program in hopes that it would provide a reasonable model to keep our heads above water financially. For the most part it has been working and given the ratio of Contributors last year we felt that if we saw the same support this year we would be fine...but it isn't going to happen.

So I miscalculated. Now we must consider how we are going to keep ourselves operating this year and we have very little time to make adjustments. Knowing that this Community for the most part dislikes change the decisions we must make will be somewhat painful even if we just subsidize our financial plan with some kind of advertising or plans similar to what you have suggested. If i should miscalculate a second time the results could result in more pain on my end than I can endure :)

Remember, I'm not a professional forum operator. I have some experience with wide area networking but this is a different ball game. We would like to remain online and continue to grow and be able to host The Creek free to all who want to join, I just don't know how we can do it at this level.

?

.

Alan Young

11-20-2007, 1:12 PM

Rodne,

If we make an assumption that Guests equal Active Members we are then serving 19,000 people at our current server load.

Last year we started the Contributors program in hopes that it would provide a reasonable model to keep our heads above water financially. For the most part it has been working and given the ratio of Contributors last year we felt that if we saw the same support this year we would be fine...but it isn't going to happen.

.

Keith

I am not sure you assumption is totally on line. I know that I often view the creek with out logging in. I assume I would then show up as a guest. So if other member are doing the same this might have an impact on your assumptions. .

Doug mentioned how much are you getting paid. I personally don't care if you are getting paid but you probably should be. But my point is maybe you need to post what the actual expenses or estimated budget run on a year basis. I work with computer networks every day and understand the cost involved but my guess is other do not.

I would hate to see the creek dry up and would support advertising if it is the only way to keep it going.

Alan

Kim Vellore

11-20-2007, 1:35 PM

Doug Jones from Oregon

11-20-2007, 2:21 PM

Keith...I'd give you a full reply on your message if I believed for one minute that a moderator would not delete it as was done earlier on this thread.

Doug

Mike Hood

11-20-2007, 2:36 PM

That's the part that's difficult in these situations.

If a person desires to make a living (profit) from these types of ventures, the first separation you need to make is that of disclosure.

Since there is profit motivation (and that's fair), there should be less consideration of what non-paying members get and more of maximizing the satisfaction of paying members.

The idea is that you would WANT to pay. Banner ads, features accessible only to paying members, etc are that motivation. Tough place to be Keith, but it sounds like you have enough of a following to make a go of it.

A clear business strategy and profit approach that'll pay your bills is my best advice. $6 a year doesn't seem enough to be honest. A decent magazine subscription cost more.

Scott Shepherd

11-20-2007, 2:37 PM

Doug, if you feel a need to respond, PM Keith. I'm personally tired of seeing you rant about this topic in public. If you have a problem with it all, PM Keith and take it private.

I'm not a moderator and I'm not associated with the forum, but I am tired of seeing you slag off Keith in public.

Barbara Buhse

11-20-2007, 2:44 PM

What I'm not understanding here is why it matters what the "creek" administrators are "earning"... why is it any of our business? Why would you need to post expenses and stuff? We are using a great forum and for this we are not even "required" to pay, but are asked only for a small donation. Its not a publicly owned entity, our taxes are not supporting it... Keith and the whole bunch are kind enough to ask our opinions, and they really don't need to do that.
I'm not really sure why anyone is complaining.

Barbara

mike wallis

11-20-2007, 3:22 PM

Keith, I just want you to know that I support your decision whatever it is. Back in 2004 when I initially joined, the Creek was fairly new and not a burden as of yet. As you said your not a professional forum moderator and already have a full time job and that is understandable.

Personally I support your idea about scaling back and only allowing contributors participate until a plan of attack can be made. Those who are not contributing, well if the forum is not important enough to donate $6.00 then it shouldn't matter much to them.

Also, I have no problem paying for a subscription format here, even at a higher fee.

As much as I like the Creek the last thing I want and I would hope others wouldn't want is for you to run yourself into the ground tring to run things, do what you think will get you and your family back in balance.

Let me know if I can be of assistance.
Mike Wallis

Rodne Gold

11-20-2007, 5:16 PM

I haven't contributed a cent , doesn't mean the forum isnt important to me. Do I have to contribute in monetary terms to make a difference or help others?

Bob Childress

11-20-2007, 5:23 PM

I haven't contributed a cent , doesn't mean the forum isnt important to me. Do I have to contribute in monetary terms to make a difference or help others?

The short answer is--no. Good advice is good advice.

But, I'm afraid you asked the wrong question. . .

The right question is, "Do I need to make a monetary contribution in order to help others on this forum?" Or are you willing to let this forum disappear and just go help others somewhere else?

Rodne Gold

11-20-2007, 5:35 PM

I have never paid for the help and knowledge I have got on the internet , it's all been in the spirit of sharing and I subscribe to that policy when trying to give back.

Alan Young

11-20-2007, 5:57 PM

I have never paid for the help and knowledge I have got on the internet , it's all been in the spirit of sharing and I subscribe to that policy when trying to give back.

Rodne

I want to be the first to say your contributions to this forum has helped me many times over and I support you right not to have to pay to use this site. For that reason I have donated more then the $6.00 suggested. Not just because of you but for the value I have received. I suspect others have received such a value as well. Unfortunately this is not going to sustain this site forever. I must admit I do not have an answer and hope a reasonable solution can be found with out having to alienate anyone just because they choose or can not give to this site.

Keith is this discussion on the other forums as well. All should be included not just us laser enthusiasts.

Alan

John Keeton

11-20-2007, 6:11 PM

It really seems that we have beat this horse to death. Most that are posting to this thread agree on the central issues: (1) Keith should be getting paid, and make as much as he can make - the finances are not our concern. (2) The only financial issue is whether each of us receives value from this forum and will financially support it sufficiently for it to survive - i.e., a fair and equal exchange. (3) Whether Keith now has enough information to do whatever he needs to do, and only he can make those decisions.

Unfortunately, the support to the creek has to be financial, not just contributions in the form of advice. I understand that there is a very visible group that have the experience and answers neede by the rest of us lesser experienced. Perhaps their is some manner of equalizing that in terms of dues, fees, etc., to create a fair arrangement and still accomplish Keith's objectives.

I view this situation as being as simple as - Keith, can you, knowing what you now know, make this thing work for you to the point where you are willing to continue. And, for the rest of us, can there be a fair arrangement that will meet our needs.

On the question of fairness, Keith really isn't a part of that issue. He should make as much as he can - the only requirement is that of honesty in the dealings he has with the members/contributors. He does what he says he will do and that is enough for me. I presume no one wanted disclosure from Bill Gates when you cranked up the old PC to log on, or when you purchased it with XP installed from the factory.

The spirit of this thread is declining rapidly. Why don't we all go back to some positive input and let Keith make his decisions. The point has been made, and though many have viewed this thread, the financial response has apparently not been significant.

Joe Pelonio

11-20-2007, 6:45 PM

It really seems that we have beat this horse to death.

The spirit of this thread is declining rapidly. Why don't we all go back to some positive input and let Keith make his decisions. The point has been made, and though many have viewed this thread, the financial response has apparently not been significant.

I agree with John. I used to frequent another forum which has paid advertising, but I stopped when they decided to go to a scaled membership fee where your level of financial support determines what parts of the forum you can use. To get the level we all have here would cost $100/year there. Plus they still have the advertising.

That forum has only 5,000 members compared to nearly 25,000 here. Asking for a voluntary $6 seems more than reasonable for what we all get out of the Creek.

mike wallis

11-20-2007, 6:57 PM

I haven't contributed a cent , doesn't mean the forum isnt important to me. Do I have to contribute in monetary terms to make a difference or help others?

It think even the "Einstein's" of the Creek occasionally learn something or benifit from other users posts. Even if it's minimal.. well so is $6.00 a year.

Mike Null

11-20-2007, 7:57 PM

I certainly understand Rodney's point and having read many of Rodney's posts on this and other forums I can't think of anyone who has contributed valuable information more freely than him.

While the internet is "free", forums are not. I wonder if they are not similar to government. It's purpose is to serve but it must have taxes to exist. I happen to be in favor of raising money via advertising though I have no objection to subscription for certain features.

What I don't understand is the mentality of some who feel they are entitled to a "free lunch."

Fortunately, Keith is a far more patient individual than I, because, having tired of all the harassment, I would have made my decision by now and one way or another there would be income.

Mark Koenig

11-20-2007, 9:13 PM

Mike,

I work a full time job during the day and have a reasonably successful part time sign business going when I can find the time to get in my workshop. I'm not wealthy but I don't need to make money from The Creek...I won't work here any longer for free. Continuing to work for people that won't contribute toward our financial needs has to stop. Effective immediately I will only be able to provide for those who have made contributions. This may sound harsh but it is nothing but cruel reality...there are way to many people here for me to provide administrative support.

We have always had Moderators assigned to each Forum, it would be impossible to operate without them.

.

.

Well Keith... I agree with you about not working for free... Just decided to go back to the full time job since business was slow and then the orders started piling in!!! Now I'm working 24-7 at two jobs!!! :cool:

Just sent in my contribution since this has been such a great resource... Couldn't have gotten into this mess without the board...:)

Thanks for the good work...;)

Mahallo, Mark...

Keith Outten

11-20-2007, 10:05 PM

Keith,
I am not getting the full picture, do you actually own servers and host this forum on the servers, create backups, maintain etc etc... If that is the case all this would make sense in terms of time and added costs. But again there are many forum hosts services that can be used for a fraction of the cost and take the burden from you maintaining all the hardware and administrative duties. Just a suggestion from my interpretation of your postings.

Kim

Kim,

SawMill Creek runs on a private server located in my shop office. We have taken some very tough criticism for our decision to operate this way and Aaron and I have defended our position many times in the past.

Clearly in the beginning it would have been much cheaper to use a hosting service but as we grew the cost situation starts to reverse. vBulletin is a database forum platform, commercial hosts increase their fees dramatically as your use of clock cycles and database access increases. Running our own server allows us to provide the most flexibility and best bang for the buck in the long haul. The down side is the cost to administer a private server can't be spread among several customers so there is no economy of scale or cost sharing. The up side is we can configure, update and adjust our server configuration anytime we feel the need and we have complete and total root access.

Several people have shared some information with me the last couple of days concerning other hosts that might be of interest and we will be looking into the possibility of making a change but I have to say that we are a bit set in our ways, we have been doing it this way for over 13 years now and our methods are tried and true. I'll admit that ours is not the least expensive way to do things but considering the traffic we experience and the data we transfer it works reliably and is scalable but not cheap.

.

Keith Outten

11-20-2007, 10:58 PM

The reason I have remained true to our original model of an advertising free Forum is that I still believe it is possible. As a Community we need to accept a few minor changes but they are insignificant considering the scope of what we are trying to do.

I thought about the 6 dollar suggested donation for a very long time. The number wasn't picked from thin air, it was based on the number of people here that could share the financial burden which is the primary reason it is so affordable. A 25 dollar fee would eliminate many woodworkers from being able to participate, if a large number of people paid 25 dollars our revenues would be unreasonably high and that is not what we are trying to do here.

Our primary goal is to remain online for as many people to enjoy The Creek as possible. We have to pay the bills and we have to be able to provide for our own growth which unfortunately means more people have to donate so we can accommodate them. All we are asking everyone to do is pay for what they use, clearly this is not unfair to anyone. We haven't instituted a mandatory fee, this provides each Member the opportunity to make their own decision concerning what they feel they are obligated to donate. The problem is we haven't been able to communicate this very simple idea to the masses here and I doubt I can do it myself.

The only time my voice is heard is when I make changes that affect privileges here, very few will even read the announcements thread here. This is going to have to be done from within the Community if it is going to be successful. If not then I will have to start making changes that force change which is not the best way. For instance if we can't find a means of getting a larger percentage of our Members to become Contributors I will most likely have to remove posting privileges from Members, they would be able to read but not post. This would be a horrible change but it may come to that sometime in the future if we get to the point that we have to do it to survive. We are definitely talking about survival here, not money.

Assuming our growth rate remains at the current level it is possible that The Creek will slow to a crawl in six to eight months. At that time everyone will be asking me to "Do Something", my question would be what would you have me do? If I can't purchase another server or add more bandwidth my only choice is to reduce the load. If we don't want to reduce the load now why would it suddenly become an attractive option later in the year? Would we ask our Contributors to donate a second time so they could provide for 18,000 people who read and post but won't contribute financially?

9,500 Active Members today
1,500 New Members are registering every month
We could double to 19,000 Active Members by this May.

1) Our administrative staff cannot handle the 9,500 active members we have now. Aaron has just about stopped answering any email so the overflow is now coming my way and I am already deleting more than I answer. I am able to respond to our Contributors, obviously a much smaller group that use our Private Messaging system more than email.

2) If only 7% of the new Members that register donate out of a 100% increase in people we will run out of gas so to speak while people are registering to get in.

I'm playing devils advocate here but this is a scenario that is absolutely possible...or possibly a sure thing.

.

Rodne Gold

11-20-2007, 11:57 PM

The only real viable alternative is use advertising , I have no idea why it is deemed so bad. It's a simple and effective strategy and is hardly an anoyance and it maintains the status quo. Increased growth = more revenue.
Sure , you might lose a few contributors who are deeply offended , but that will be minimal compared to what you would lose when you make this a pay to play venue. Google doesnt charge and many use it. folk don't avoid it cos of banner ads and so on.
$6 is paltry , it is also a major schlep for some non US residents to send and if I had to pay for every forum I visit and contribute to , It would start to cost me a LOT. Im opposed in principle to the notion of paying directly to use a forum, either its free and I pay indirectly by contributing time and effort or I pay by seeing ads. Apart from that , the $6 is now not being seen as a "voluntary donation" it has now become the minimum mandatory to participate or seems that it will be
This financial model has worked extremely well for many other forums so why not just use the tried and trusted method?
As to workload , as Kim says , call for volunteer moderators , you won't be short of takers.

Keith Outten

11-21-2007, 12:15 AM

Rodne,

Your advice may be our only option but I disagree with the idea that people will volunteer to be admins. A few may volunteer but they won't last very long or they are like me and don't have the temperment for the job. This year I have come to rely more on our Moderators and their advice to keep my temper in check. Some days it is painfull to open my mailbox.

.

Rodne Gold

11-21-2007, 1:16 AM

Keith , I'm fully prepared to be a moderator , I was one on a massive board called Audioasylum.com , we have like 25 sections there and each one has a team of 2 moderators , never a problem to get more when some drop out or lose interest. It makes life soo much easier. I only work from 8.30 to 12 or 1 or so , I got tons of time and the will.
If one is spending time browsing the boards or composing replies , it's not too difficult to spend a further 15 or 20 mins to delete obviously inflamatory messages or threads or vet mails and so on. This place is real tame compared to some , hardly any fires to put out.
If you see the level of support you already have from members and their passion about this board , it seems that you already have an excllent core of volunteers. You can only try - put out a call for moderators/helpers - see who responds.

Michael Kowalczyk

11-21-2007, 1:59 AM

Most of us know that you can never please all the people, all the time but some of the people, part of the time, and others usually never.

I have been bouncing around most of the other forums on CREEK and noticed that there is a core of people that participate in each of them. Some cross over to many and some seem to stay in only a few. The Neanderthal, general, and OT forums seem to have the most traffic of "members" from several that I scanned through. There were also several posts that it seemed that when someone that is a current "contributor" that most of the ones that follow were also current "contributors". Maybe when someone has 500 to 3,000 posts under their belt, they probably know several others on the forum and have regular discussions.

As someone else mentioned that sometimes they come to the Creek several times a day and only as a guest, that this may hike the daily views a bit. I do not know what constitutes an active member hit. Are multiple hits from a member counted? Is every time a google search hits a posts counted? Maybe Keith or Aaron could explain or if they already did maybe post the link here. What I am trying to say is that many of the naysayers and some of the ones that are kinda neutral that it can go either way (ads or no ads, that is the question) but I say that even though there are 9,000 +- active members and only 7%+ have contributed, I think that these are the ones that drive the forum and make it what it is. The ones that are barking about what Keith is going to make from this are wrong IMHO. Several years ago I heard that the head of the Red Cross made over $750,000.00 a year salary. Does that mean you should not donate to it? I doubt it. If 50 mil people donated 100.00 dollars each that would mean each one of them gave .015 cents each toward the salary. My point is that even those that run a big Non-Profit have a lot to manage and are entitled to a fair wage for it. So if a Global NP can justify a salary that is still far below what a For-Profit business of that size would be, would people not donate then even though they see how it benefits those in need?

If we use simple numbers for illustration purposes like 9,000 active members, 7% of them donated only 6.00 each. That is only 630 contributors that have funded a total of a dismal $3780 or 315.00 a month. So even if you could drop expenses down to 200.00 a month, How many of you naysayers would run a forum this size and the amount of time and dedication that Keith, Aaron and Jackie put into this for around $115.00 a month? I can only guess that there is more money coming than this because I have read that many of us have contributed more than the suggested donation of $6 a year, but probably not much more with only 7% actually making a contribution.

One thought would be is I know many sites record your IP address and maybe a filter that says 25 free views then restricted access unless they become a subscriber. Current members that have made over 500+- helpful posts can be exempt from this but not if someone just makes a whole bunch of off topic or chit chat posts to run up the up the meter. That would help keep the ones that contribute what money can't always buy, Useful information. Of course if they want to donate because they feel that they benefit also, that's OK.

Bottom line is it does not matter and should not matter if "They" (Keith, Jackie, Aaron) make 50K a year, each, from the Funds received. If you don't think .50 cents a month is worth unlimited access here then maybe you need to reevaluate why you are here and think about all the money you through away each month on stuff that you receive no benefit from.

I'm sorry but if you have received even 1 idea here that you have benefited from whether monetarily or in other ways and can't afford .50 cents a month and haven't taken a vow of poverty, fasted one lunch/dinner a month, not gone to 1 movie a year, or the countless other ways that you CAN MAKE IT AFFORDABLE, then please take it now. But all the time and money that you have saved, then please donate it (your time and money saved) to the Red Cross or some other NP organization because you may run out of space hoarding it all. (2795)

A little bit of humor :rolleyes: thrown in with several grains of salt :) in case it was missed.:D

Gary Hair

11-21-2007, 12:34 PM

I have never paid for the help and knowledge I have got on the internet , it's all been in the spirit of sharing and I subscribe to that policy when trying to give back.

Somebody has to pay for the equipment that comprises "the internet". It's not the information you are paying for, it's the equipment to deliver the information.

How about another way of looking at it...

Let's say you live in Kansas and want to go see the ocean. You get in your car and drive to California and right up to the beach. One beach has an adimttance fee of $6.00 the other is free. You choose to go to the free one because "it's a natural resource and should be free". You are absolutly right about that, it should be free, nature should be free. But, how the hell did you get there? Didn't you have to buy a car, pay for gas and maintenance? Same thing applies here Rodne - you have to get to the information and that is what you should be paying for, the vehicle, not the info.

Cough up the $0.50 per month enjoy the view.

Gary

Rodne Gold

11-21-2007, 3:06 PM

Kim Vellore

11-21-2007, 4:27 PM

I am a member of an another forum which discuses software and under the user name it has licensed user or just member, it is free but over the years it has become fair, this is how it has become fair:
If a user without licensed user status posts too many questions not many folks answer them, but if it is a new member the get all the questions answered.

That kind of a culture can also help here if a non contributing user keeps asking questions for a long time folks would stop responding after a while on the other had if a non contributing user keeps helping others he/she has established himself/herself in this forum and does not have to contribute to get a good response. It is just folks helping each other.

For me this forum has helped tremendously in getting a lot of information but it is for my hobbies, I dont make money with my laser. So I get to understand issues on both sides.

To summarize:

The "Owner" owns and maintains the equipment that makes this forum work.

The users makes this forum what it is today (Useful)

The "Owner" says I need to be compensated for my time and investments that made/make this happen

A small percentage of the users respond, much smaller than what the 'Owner' expected.

The 'Owner' needs to making a decision if there has to be fees imposed on all, or restrict users.

Many 'Users' outraged saying I am contributing to the forum with my time experience and knowledge why should I be forced to pay.

I think both have a valid point because this forum will not work without either.

I think it would be fair to say if this forum makes your life in your business easier or it makes you more money directly or indirectly you must seriously consider donating.

I hope the owner finds a better way to convince these folks. I am sure that percentage will be greater than what the owner expects.

I am also so sure if anything is forced it will be down hill from there. No matter how small the amount is the expectations of the payee will be completely different from a donor.

Kim

Gary Hair

11-21-2007, 4:54 PM

Gary , If I have to pay an admittance fee to what could plainly be subsidised by other means , I'll just pass and move on.
Exactly what other means are you talking about? Keith's own personal money? That's the only "other means" I can think of, either we pay up or he does...

I take some offense at being told by you or anyone else to cough up when I have put huge amounts of time and effort and thought into my posts and have shared my knowledge without profiting from it.
I meant no offense to you, or anyone else who share their knowledge and helps us out on this forum. That is a great thing to do and I honestly thank you for that.

If thats not good enough a contribution , I don't know what is. Cold hard cash, you have to keep the computers running, the bandwidth flowing, the staff paid, etc.

Try stopping paying your gas bill - isn't natural gas a natural resource? Why pay money for something that comes from the earth?

What about water, why pay for that? Isn't the earth 80% water?

And gasoline, why pay for a by-product of a dead dinosaur?

Oh, and don't forget food - why should I pay for food? It practically grows on trees...

And why should I pay for sewer? I am paying to get rid of something that I already paid for (food and water).

Gary

Kim Vellore

11-21-2007, 5:35 PM

Michael Kowalczyk

11-21-2007, 5:37 PM

I think Rodne contributes far more than he asks and members like him are the ones that I suggested having the option of being exempted. Someone else said earlier that they donated extra just for Rodne because they value his input. I know that he has put in long hours writing posts that are tremendously valuable to ALL members. I think it should be up to Keith and crew as to who gets a scholarship from contributors that donate above the suggested donation. Rodne has also offered to help the load by volunteering to be a moderator also. IMHO we should all avoid posting personal attacks of any kind. It is not conducive to the heart of this forum.
Our words should be like Sapphires. Precious!

If you search all the posts that Rodne has posted and take sometime to review them, you will see what I mean. Many of them are worth the donation alone.

Sandra Force

11-21-2007, 8:11 PM

The sad truth is that this thread is preaching to the choir. I would like to see the explination of why they don't feel that helping cover the cost of operating SMC is their responibilty from the people who don't pitch in. I haven't been here long and thank Mike Null for sending me this direction. The information that I have gotten from here has been excellent and well worth the small amount that I contributed.

Alan Young

11-21-2007, 8:42 PM

Keith

Could you give us a little info on how much server hard drive space you need and what the avearge band width is to run this forum? You mentioned the possibility of an additional server. Have you considered a third party hosting service to host the site and provide the bandwidth?

I know this does not address the forum maintenance issue but would that be cost effective to get out of the hardware side of it?

Alan

Rodne Gold

11-21-2007, 11:20 PM

Advertising is the alternate way and there are tens of 1000's of examples of this on the web , where free flow of info is paramount and way more important than the "outrage" of seeing an ad.

Keith Outten

11-21-2007, 11:44 PM

Alan,

The server we are using now is handling the load just fine...with room to grow. Our bandwidth consumption right now is well within the capability of our existing pipe so all is well...right now.

I mentioned that we average 1500 new members per month, it is possible that performance here will degrade to less than suitable levels in the next 6 to 8 months. If the new members fail to provide financial support for what they consume The Creek will slow to a crawl at some point. Basically we need to find a way to convince the entire Community here that we are Member supported or start the wheels turning toward subsidizing with advertising as Rodne and others have suggested.

Concerning the issue of us moving The Creek to a lesser expensive host it probably will never happen. Aaron and I have been running our own servers since 1995 and we just don't want to step back to a lesser level of access. If we can't operate our own server we just don't want to continue. The cost per person here is absolutely insignificant given the huge number of people who visit and enjoy SawMill Creek i just can't see us having to offer additional sacrifice when so many refuse to pay a mere 50 cents per month. Bare in mind people are still allowed to use The Creek for free at this point so nobody is being forced to donate. They will have to accept a few changes as we get closer to the time when our resources are overrun and performance starts to degrade.

The issue of our labor costs are a bit easier to solve. Those who decide to contribute will receive administrative help, those who are not contributors will not. I have already implemented this policy but it was not by choice. I haven't been able to keep up with requests for help here for some time so I have been concentrating on Contributors first. If I have any time left to spend after I have taken care of our Contributors I will then answer requests from Members but this is very rare. There are over 2,900 people in the que waiting for their accounts to be corrected so they can log in for the first time and it is a high probability that I will never have the time to help them so the list will continue to grow.

Rodne, your offer to become a Forum Moderator is welcome and I will contact you off line to discuss it further. What we desperately need are experienced Administrators willing to work for free which are tough to find. Moderators work on the front side of our Forums for the most part, Administrators work mostly in the back office and of course are responsible for updating accounts based on access to our financial system. Administrators have the master key to everything so we need to select people we really trust to provide that level of access.

.

Keith Outten

11-22-2007, 11:51 AM

Mike Hood

11-22-2007, 12:27 PM

I just checked our Active Users number this morning. We are at 9,781 so we should reach 10,000 in less than 5 days. Our total number of registered Members will hit 25,000 in less time.

This is the growth rate I have been talking about.

.

That number can be taken many ways Keith as you may know. By default, VBulletin treats any member who logs in every 30 days as an "Active Member" (including NEW users). Slide that number to 7 days and watch your "Active Members" become a bit more accurate.

It's a pretty coarse number that most admins use sort of like an inflated hit counter. Use your user activity stats and transactions log to get a better representation of a forums growth.

Matt Meiser

11-22-2007, 1:09 PM

What does it matter? All that matters is that in comparison to the past the growth has been dramatic. Kieth has made it clear that:

1) The amount of effort needed to administer this forum has grown to the point where it is more than he is willing to voluntarily support. He's graciously hosted us for years and for for the last 2 has asked us for $6 lousy bucks in return.
2) He's decided that he's not going run an ad-supported forum. Its his right, he owns this forum.
3) He's not willing to run a hosted forum. Again, its his right, he owns the forum.

He's made it pretty clear that he's going to run his forum his way or he's not going to do it. I wouldn't blame him one bit if he shut this forum down tomorrow. Many have an opinion on how he should manage it, few are willing to support him, but plenty are willing to take advantage what he's offering us.

Mike Hood

11-22-2007, 1:53 PM

You're 100% correct. The owner of a forum can do pretty much whatever they wish.

BUT... one thing to keep in mind is this is only a $160 piece of software, that can be hosted for around $125 a year. The only reason it's as active as it is, is for the participation of members (paid or not).

It's a delicate balance that every forum based website has to walk very carefully. Stir the pot for the $$$ too briskly and you lose the attraction that brings the users in the first place.

Advertising, services, features and member only areas are all ways too build revenue, but they must be transparent to the first time user, or they won't come back.

For example... I only check into the "LASERS & CNC FORUM". Mostly to see what people are talking about and to help out like I was helped a few times. It's got nothing to do with the software, the $6, or Keith's income.

If you lose the users... or the helpful free advice... or the fun... you might as well have a blog.

Matt Meiser

11-22-2007, 2:36 PM

Well then so be it. Keith has said he's not willing to run this forum that way. This forum was a great success from with good participation when we had a few hundred members.

Mike Hood

11-22-2007, 3:39 PM

I'm not predicting anything less. I'm just saying I've been down this road before. If you want to contribute and have paid $6, go right ahead. If you want to stop me from contributing because I have not... that's an option also.

But... if you think that Keith will raise $125,000 a year for administering a piece of software, I'd guess you'd fall short.

($125,000 = 25,000 members x $6 each)

What he's missing (in my opinion), is the valuable commercial value that a FREE forum has (with a 25,000+ membership of course). Sidebar advertising, rotating banners, sponsored ads, group discounts, promotional offers, even pass-through links... are incredibly valuable and worth much more than $6 a head.

Negotiate some member-only discounts with some vendors. Watch how fast the contributions roll in.

Jared Greenberg

11-22-2007, 4:01 PM

It's a great deal for us Canadians now!

Keith Outten

11-22-2007, 4:09 PM

Mike,

I solved the salary issue when I removed 90% of the workload.
The commercial value of SawMill Creek has never been a primary consideration.
.

Gary Hair

11-22-2007, 6:42 PM

Gary,

Not a fair comparison, if you want a close comparison it is like paying a post man to deliver the mail, even though the sender has paid for the postage in our case taking the time to contribute to the forum the recipient need to pay a small amount to get it.

Kim

Kim,
My comparison might not have been the best, and yours is not quite exact either - no argument there. I do get your point and agree that there is a value on the contribution that people like Rodne make, and I appreciate them very much for that.

The fact remains that this forum would not exist if it were not for Keith putting out the money to physically have a site and there would be no content if it were not for people like Rodne, and many, many others, who freely give their knowledge. Nobody is arguing about the value of the content, the argument seems to be in the delivery. Keith has given a significant amount of time and money, he needs to be reimbursed, and compensated, for this effort.

Gary

Scott Shepherd

11-22-2007, 8:47 PM

In the spirit of Thanksgiving (not sure what that has to do with it, but it seems like a good scape goat), can we lock this thread and end this? It's been beat to death by everyone 10 times over.

Is there really anything left to say that's constructive? Let's get back to posting laser info and let's let Keith run the place how he wants and let the rest work itself out.

Just my two cents worth.

Alan Young

11-22-2007, 9:38 PM

Keith

Thank you for your answerer to my questions. It was good to understand your reasoning for the way you would like to run this site. I support your decisions and I will continue to support the creek how ever I can.

Would it be possible to place a graph or say one of those thermometer scale things some where so that all members could see the status of the current fund raising drive. It does not have to contain $$ amounts just a scale of where we are to where you would feel we should be. This way it might help some one visually see that we need more. Just a thought.

Alan

Alan Young

11-22-2007, 9:39 PM

And Happy Thanksgiving to All

Michael Bareno

11-23-2007, 9:17 AM

I am fairly new to this forum and have been reading all the great ideas and solutions you guys come up with. I just donated what I could. I will likely be buying my first laser in the next couple of months and i think it is important for us to keep supporting this forum, new and old members alike.

Keith Outten

11-23-2007, 9:52 AM

Thanks Michael, we appreciate your support this year and welcome to SawMill Creek.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The total number of Active Members this morning at 9:40am is 9,810, twenty nine new members in less than 24 hours.

We are averaging 600 to 900 new posts per day average over the last 30 days.

Less than 8% of our Active Members have made a donation to our fund drive.
.

Lee DeRaud

11-23-2007, 10:45 AM

The total number of Active Members this morning at 9:40am is 9,810, twenty nine new members in less than 24 hours.

We are averaging 600 to 900 new posts per day average over the last 30 days.

Less than 8% of our Active Members have made a donation to our fund drive..Hmmm...

Split the difference and call that 750 posts per day average. I have no idea if the last 30 days are typical, but assuming they are, on any given day, less than 8% of our Active Members contribute content to the Creek.

Probably just a meaningless coincidence, but it's the kind of coincidence that tends to catch my eye.

Mike Hood

11-23-2007, 12:04 PM

Guys... here's what I've seen on a forum that's arguably the size of this one.

5% of the people contribute 95% of the content.

It's the CONTENT that makes a forum worth coming back to. The 95% that do not contribute (through advice or conversation) are only worth one thing... advertising fodder.

We drop the banner ads for all that contribute (any amount). We also drop banner ads for those who contribute materially (through participation). For the rest, the advice and good reading is free, but they get to look at the advertising. It's VERY simple to manage in VBulletin. It takes just moments to ad the modules that take contributions online and do all the work for you.

Google AdSense is a great resource Keith, as are many targeted marketing portals. They will not affect your contributing membership at all, or even be seen.

I know you have an idea of what you feel this forum should generate in income (above expenses), and that PERFECTLY OK. You shouldn't share that with anyone except those in your business plan, and make the steps necessary to grow this business into a self-sustaining model.

Bart Leetch

11-23-2007, 1:40 PM

Gary , If I have to pay an admittance fee to what could plainly be subsidised by other means , I'll just pass and move on.
I take some offense at being told by you or anyone else to cough up when I have put huge amounts of time and effort and thought into my posts and have shared my knowledge without profiting from it. If thats not good enough a contribution , I don't know what is.

When its not here because of not enough contributions you won't be able to contribute your 2 cent worth of knowledge.

Oh & no you don't have to give money but a nicer attitude would be great.:):D

I see you have around 690 posts & have been here a long time which means you have the fullest understanding of how this forum is run....am I correct in assuming you know it all?:eek::):):):D

Just a 1/2 cent addition to my 2 cents of contribution already contributed.

I'll be sending my contribution after the first of the year. Is there a snail mail address to send it to?

Keith Outten

11-23-2007, 3:23 PM

Bart,

In all fairness Rodne has been a major contributor here in the laser engraving forum. Those who don't have a reason to visit that particular forum wouldn't know but Rodne has some posts that are more like articles than threads. He has been very generous with information concerning alternate techniques and lots of good information for people just starting in the laser engraving and awards businesses. Rodne will most likely be a new Moderator soon so he has proven his willingness to contribute time and talent.

It is true what you say that we must pay the bills here or go off line which won't be beneficial to anyone so we have to stay focused on what we can do to make things better and provide for our financial needs at the same time. Mike Hood has offered some very sound advice, Aaron and I will be discussing his ideas ASAP to see if we can implement them as he has suggested. A key factor for me is I don't ever want our Contributors to see advertising of any kind here.

I really would like to see some extra money being generated somehow...not necessarilly for my pocket but for programing costs associated with the shop tours module we have been dreaming about. The most outrageously cool shop tours web site you can imagine would be a major hit here. If i had the developement funds I would invest in it myself but I am still in debt paying off the loans for The Creek. I'm a patient man, I'll find a way somehow :)

.

Mike Hood

11-23-2007, 3:35 PM

I really would like to see some extra money being generated somehow...not necessarilly for my pocket but for programing costs associated with the shop tours module we have been dreaming about.

Keep in mind your dream Keith. Treat it as a business. Keep your business plan close to to the chest, and don't feel you have any reason explain how many members, how much they pay or even what your long term strategy is.

I suggest you:

- implement banners (there are some great banner rotation modules for VBulletin)
- get a Google adSense account (free and pays some small amounts)
- solicit some advertising (never hurts to ask... start small)
- solicit vendor discounts (5%-10% for using a special SMC code)
- solicit vendor donations
- add an auction module (many out there). Great for donated items.

Then... you structure your membership levels to something like:

- guest
- member
- contributor (maybe by years) ie: 5 year contributor, etc.
- sponsor

And then YOU can decide what each level gets to make use of. Some people will pay to NOT look at banner ads. Some others won't care (they are the marketing fodder you WANT actually)

Either way... you run this place... do what you feel necssary, just be careful with black and white solutions. A site that REQUIRES payment to participate will dwindle to nothing. A site that is ad-free has NO sponsorship value.

Shoot me an email if you have any questions (somesailor@gmail.com)

I've been down this road before and I feel your pain... hang in there. :)

-

Bart Leetch

11-23-2007, 6:44 PM

Bart,

In all fairness Rodne
.

Ok I"ll pull my horns in.

My problem is the thought goes through my head someone will go out & buy a hamburger & they cost about the same as a donation to SMC & they expect to pay for the hamburger but all the forums that cost much more to keep on the internet are supposed to be completely free. (NOT) Where as not eating the hamburger & the fries & the soft drink that goes with it will cut back on the cholesterol & triglycerides & FAT:eek: then send the hamburgers cost in a yearly contribution to SMC would be much healthier & support something they seem to enjoy. :):D

Jackie Outten

11-23-2007, 7:40 PM

Bart,

Thank you for your input and continued support. You can send your donation to Northwind Associates, 8770 Little England Road, Hayes, VA 23072.

Jackie

Lisa Walter

11-25-2007, 3:16 PM

Hello! I made a donation and hope you get lots of others :) How do I find the store to see what is available?

Thanks

Lisa burger

Keith Outten

11-25-2007, 5:59 PM

Lisa,

From the main menu here there is a SawMill Creek Store Forum that contains several threads with information on hats, shirts and coffee mugs.

Thanks for your support this year,
Keith

Keith Outten

11-29-2007, 5:37 AM

I just checked our Active Users number this morning. We are at 9,781 so we should reach 10,000 in less than 5 days. Our total number of registered Members will hit 25,000 in less time.

This is the growth rate I have been talking about.

.

On November 28th we hit 10,005 Active Members. It took one day longer than I predicted. According to our logs we ranged between 43 to 74 new members each day for the last seven days.

I expect most don't pay much attention to the numbers here but they are significant and it is wise for us to forecast our needs ahead of time.

.

Doug Shepard

11-29-2007, 5:44 AM

Dont count the procrastinators out yet folks. I've donated for the last 2 years and last year for whatever reason, I think it was January or Feb. before I finally got it checked off my To-Do list. Had intentions of doing it all along, but just kept forgetting to do it.

Doug Bergstrom

11-29-2007, 8:05 AM

i just sent my contribution in....keep up the great work!!

Brian Weick

11-29-2007, 9:28 AM

I noticed that you roughly have 4,754 views (as of when I wrote this) on a post that is of considerable importance on sustaining the life of Saw Mill Creek. You said you have roughly 10,000 active members and roughly 22,000 registered members- this sight has less than half of the active members that even know about this situation and roughly 21 percent of 22,000 registered members that are cognoscente of this matter. I am just trying to help with a little business advise and it just seams to me; you may need to find a way of getting this message across to every member that is registered to SMC. I am not familiar with how Vbulliten (if that's what this format is) works but can't you insert a more "clearly visible" message on the the very top - next to the SMC logo- something to get the word out without members having to search for it- if your asking for help- make it known to all, no searching through threads, no stumbling into it by accident- you have , and I don't mean to repeat myself , 79 percent (total) that don't even know about this??????? I really think you will have much more success reaching "all members", by making a "clearly displayed" notice , a "statement" at the top of your website. If it were me, which it's not, this announcement would be very clearly visible, that's the only way you are going to reach every individual that accesses SMC. 79 percent are out there on the ball field and they don't even know the balls coming- 79 percent? Please give this some thought and I am only trying to help you and SMC Keith.
Thank you
Sincerely,
Brian Weick

Cary Fleming

11-29-2007, 4:55 PM

I just made my donation via PayPal, and I'm sorry I didn't do it sooner. I've gotten tons of tips and valuable information from the Creek, and I know what it really costs to run a site like this.

Long live the Creek!

Brian Weick

11-30-2007, 3:31 PM

Thank you- Hopefully the other members will get the message - welcome aboard to SMC contributors forum and it's other contributing members can't thank you enough as well! ~ thank you! :)
Brian

Gary Whitt

11-30-2007, 5:06 PM

Keith Outten

11-30-2007, 5:32 PM

Brian,

At the top of every forum page just under the New Thread Button

Threads in Forum : General Woodworking and Power Tools
Announcement: Update: Nov 29th - Winners Names Posted (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/announcement.php?f=3&a=14)

I reset the counter every time I make a new entry and change the date. Since yesterday morning early there have been 236 views which means that either there is very little interest or people don't see it, it is probably a little of both.

There are plenty of entries concerning our Fund Drive in the announcement thread and a few threads that were started to discuss various topics that involve paying the bills and the changes in eligibility for FreeStuff Drawings.
My signature denotes that our Fund Drive is underway in big red letters and has a link to the Donations Page. Others here have similar links in their signatures so there is plenty of notice being given. Nothing and I mean nothing will get some people's attention if they don't want to be bothered or just don't feel obligated to provide their support...except possibly taking something away that they value (access to our Classified Forum) or putting something in the way of things they value (Advertising Banners). Even then they won't read anything, they will start a new thread to ask what happened.

.

.