Is a helical head on a jointer just a gimmick?

[Lewis Cobb]

I don't want to start a war here, but having never owned either a planer or a jointer, I am trying to learn what's great and what's not in my research of them. I can see the advantage of a helical head in a planer - prevents tear out on highly figured woods. But the jointer - don't most people flip the board at least once going through the planer after it's been jointed? And if there's tear out on the edges, that can be cleaned up with the tablesaw?

I suppose the longevity of the blades and the indexing feature are a plus just like the planer.

Anyway, I'd appreciate hearing other people's take on this subject. I'd like to get both machines with helical heads but I don't want to spend money for no good reason other than it's cool......I've been to that movie before :D

Thanks for the tips,
Lewis

[Rob Will]

Lewis,
I think your presumption is correct. I have a Byrd head on a 24" planer and a straight knife head on a 24" jointer. Most of the time, I only use the jointer to rough flatten one side. The rest is done in the planer.

Having said that, if I had the opportunity, I would equip my jointer with an insert head of some sort. (mostly because it is quieter and easier to push through). With wide face jointing, there is a lot of knife hitting at the same instant.

Also, when edge jointing, tear-out often happens with grain reversals. Since you can't run that edge through the planer to clean it up, a helical jointer might be nice to have.

Rob

[Gary Keedwell]

Back when I bought my jointer and planer, carbide insert cutting heads were only used in machine shop production shops. They have been using them for years. Unless there is some unexpected collapse in hobby woodworking, the furure will be in carbide inserts.
When I upgrade my shop for retirement (not long from now) I do not ever want to take blades in and out of my machines again. Ah...fiddlin & diddlin with blade adjustments will be nothing but an unpleasant memory.:)
Gary

[Steve knight]

it's not a gimmick but it may not be needed by most. I use mostly tropicals and the time saved not changing knives is more then worth the cost. I would have to sharpen the knives every month or so now I can go a year between rotating the cutters.

[Craig Thompson]

Lewis,

I upgraded my jointer with a byrd shelix... and love it.. primarily for the the myriads of time saved on blade changes. Much quieter as well.

[Chuck Burns]

I'm getting ready to order a Byrd head for my new PM PJ882 jointer. Why?Because my 15HH planer with the Byrd head is SO quiet in comparison to the jointer. And I hate messing with knives anyway.

[Jack Camillo]

Lewis, good question, good thread. I'm in the same decision making process and following this thread closely. I have heard how quiet the inserts are with planers, but haven't heard in person a comparison with knives, nor have I seen a comparison in the resulting finish. (I saw a demo of a PM planer with the inserts, but they didn't fire up one with knives to show the difference) Hope more owners respond.
jack

[James Phillips]

I have owned both. The helical is quieter, give a better cut, runs much smoother, and most importantly setting the blades is not necessary (they are set when you install them). A knife head jointer makes 3 cuts per rotation with "dead time" between. A helical jointer makes a somewhat more constant cut (more so with face jointing). I think it is well worth the extra $$

[Lewis Cobb]

Good feedback on this question - thanks lads. Helical head it is for the jointer then, based on this. I had not considered the "fiddling and diddling" time associated with setting the knives, but the length of time between changes, and the quality of cut pretty much make it an easy decision - fogetting about the cost of course :D but as I always tell my wife - "you can't put a price on happiness"

Cheers,
Lewis

[Rob Will]

Lewis, good question, good thread. I'm in the same decision making process and following this thread closely. I have heard how quiet the inserts are with planers, but haven't heard in person a comparison with knives, nor have I seen a comparison in the resulting finish. (I saw a demo of a PM planer with the inserts, but they didn't fire up one with knives to show the difference) Hope more owners respond.
jack

Jack,
If a straight knife machine is extremely sharp, they're not too bad. Once they get slightly dull......they're ear blistering. A board getting hammered by a straight knife really amplifies the noise. Ear protection required.
Rob

[Dixon Peer]

Did I miss it, or did no one mention Tersa head machines? I have a 300mm Tersa head Sueri Alfredo jointer; it has a four knife head, the cutters having edges on two sides. When one side is dull, you remove the knife and turn it around and you're ready to go again. There's no adjustment to do; insert the knives and turn the jointer on and centrifugal force locks them in place. It's great.

[Walt Caza]

Hi Lewis,
In response to your original post, I would like to say that the table saw
is not used to clean up jointed edges, but rather the other way around.
It is pretty standard practice to clean up table-sawn edges with light
passed on the jointer.
In the case of edge tear out on dodgey boards, a slower feedrate through
the jointer can increase the cuts per inch, for a better finish.
Thickness planers offer less flexibility as far as feedrate, although some
models offer 2 speeds.

I am a bit unclear regarding Rob's comment that you cannot run
boards on edge through the thickness planer. It is common practice
in furniture shops to do just that...
for example, stiles and rails for face frames for any cabinet, are
table-sawn one sixteenth inch oversized, then cleaned up on the
planer, with a 1/32" pass on each side, to remove any sawmarks,
and true the sticks up to tight parallel.

Sometimes we may wander off the fence a bit when shoving boards
through the saw, other times we may get burns or chatter from
tired blades, not to mention internal stresses in hardwood.

The planer offers quick forgiveness, and can self-feed many sticks
of similar dimension at once, with the added benefit of a scale to
read out the finished dimensions.

Cleaning up edges on the jointer could possibly take those edges out
of parallel, although the light cuts would minimize such, as would
strong jointer feed technique.

Other thoughts on helix heads that have not been mentioned so far:

edge is about trade-off
HSS will take a keener edge, so starts sharper, but is less durable
carbide starts less sharp, but fades less, and is far more long lasting

the chips produced by inserts facilitate dust collection entrainment

with helix heads it becomes less important to 'read' the grain to determine
feed direction, and shines when dealing with tricky grain turn-around

they claim you get 4 fresh cutting edges with carbide inserts, but
those-who-know say that inserts often break across a corner,
thus killing 2 possible edges...
(I have yet to break one, but wonder if a break can kill a whole insert,
such as across the mounting hole?)

In my own shopping research, I learned that there is a distinction to be
made with helix heads, that is seldom brought up...

If the inserts are mounted around the cutting head in a spiral,
But the inserts meet the wood straight on, this is not true helix...
In a true helix, such as Byrd Shelix, the inserts meet the wood at a
shear angle, which makes all the difference...

think of a pass with a block plane straight on, versus a pass with the
same plane held on a skew angle... night and day

thus many spiral heads are being sold, which lack the crucial benefit
of a shear cut, but that is a function of marketing
(caveat emptor)

I have no connection to Byrd, just a belief their Shelix is a superior option.

Good luck with your homework and tool shopping,
Walt
:)

[Gary Keedwell]

In my own shopping research, I learned that there is a distinction to be
made with helix heads, that is seldom brought up...

If the inserts are mounted around the cutting head in a spiral,
But the inserts meet the wood straight on, this is not true helix...
In a true helix, such as Byrd Shelix, the inserts meet the wood at a
shear angle, which makes all the difference...

think of a pass with a block plane straight on, versus a pass with the
same plane held on a skew angle... night and day

thus many spiral heads are being sold, which lack the crucial benefit
of a shear cut, but that is a function of marketing
(caveat emptor)

I have no connection to Byrd, just a belief their Shelix is a superior option.

Good luck with your homework and tool shopping,
Walt
:)
[/QUOTE]

Walt,
I am glad you brought that subject up. Indeed you are right about the angle of the insert as it cuts the wood. Instead of a "chopping" action you get a "shear" action. Hence it's name "she-lix" ( shear-lix) .
It is my undocumented believe that alot of people have it in their machines right now and don't know the difference. I'm not saying that a conventional straight cutting insert will not do a sufficient job, what I am saying is that there is a significant difference.
Gary

[Rob Will]

Hi Lewis,

I am a bit unclear regarding Rob's comment that you cannot run
boards on edge through the thickness planer. It is common practice
in furniture shops to do just that...
for example, stiles and rails for face frames for any cabinet, are
table-sawn one sixteenth inch oversized, then cleaned up on the
planer, with a 1/32" pass on each side, to remove any sawmarks,
and true the sticks up to tight parallel.

Walt
:)

You are right Walt. Narrow stock will go through the planer just fine on edge. I guess I was referring to those really wide boards.

Rob

[Lewis Cobb]

Thanks for the detailed response Walt. I had not considered the "starts less keen but stays keener longer" issue with carbide. I guess I knew it already from router bits / table saw blades but was not thinking on that path when I started looking at the jointer/planers. And that shear angle business is another very good point.

There's lots to learn here about this stuff but it's an enjoyable task and the end result will be an informed decision :)

[Dixon Peer]

I still haven't read any mention of Tersa heads and inserts, which kinda baffles me. It's a really good system, easy to change knives and no adjusting/fooling around to do. I can change four knives in about a minute, turn the machine on and be back at work. How long does it take to change all the little carbide chicklets on the helix heads?

[Rob Will]

I still haven't read any mention of Tersa heads and inserts, which kinda baffles me. It's a really good system, easy to change knives and no adjusting/fooling around to do. I can change four knives in about a minute, turn the machine on and be back at work. How long does it take to change all the little carbide chicklets on the helix heads?

It takes forever!
Im not sure the Byrd inserts are heavy enough.
I have broken ten......doing a little bit of nothing.

Rob

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

it is unless you pay the $$ to get a true helical one - AND one that won't leave little stripes of wood sticking up.

And unfortunately it is caveat emptor out there in the wild wolly world carbide tipped cutter heads.

[Steve knight]

It takes forever!
Im not sure the Byrd inserts are heavy enough.
I have broken ten......doing a little bit of nothing.

Rob

it takes forever? just set a cordless drills clutch to the right setting and loosen the nut rotate and tighten it up. I have not broken a cutter yet in the two plus years I have had mine. 10 minutes or so to rotate the set once a year.

[Larry James]

Also see:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25284

[Gary Keedwell]

This reminds me of the old guys in the machine shops who didn't like carbide and insisted on using HSS. Well, there all gone and so is the HSS. The only reason that carbide hasn't really taken off with the hobby woodworking crowd is the lack of numbers. Even though the prices of carbide inserts have come down dramatically, it hasn't filtered down to us because we are so few.
Imagine if woodworking became as popular as golfing. Do you really think everybody would be stuck with 100 year old tooling?:rolleyes:

Gary

[Rob Will]

it takes forever? just set a cordless drills clutch to the right setting and loosen the nut rotate and tighten it up. I have not broken a cutter yet in the two plus years I have had mine. 10 minutes or so to rotate the set once a year.

The drill is a good idea but in order to do it in ten minutes I would have to rotate an insert every 3.5 seconds 168 times without dropping anything.;)

Actually, I think some of my inserts were over-torqued from the factory and they cracked.

For the money I like my Byrd head. If I could pick anything regardless of cost it would be an Oliver, Northfield or Newman Whitney. All once made or still make much heavier insert heads. The method of holding the teeth looks a lot better. As of about a year ago, an extra $54K sitting around would buy a brand new Newman Quiet Cut planer. Soooo, I think the Byrd will do me just fine.

Rob

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Jack,
If a straight knife machine is extremely sharp, they're not too bad. Once they get slightly dull......they're ear blistering. A board getting hammered by a straight knife really amplifies the noise. Ear protection required.
Rob

And dull blades make it harder for glue to get in the fibers and effect a good bond.

[Dixon Peer]

it takes forever? just set a cordless drills clutch to the right setting and loosen the nut rotate and tighten it up. I have not broken a cutter yet in the two plus years I have had mine. 10 minutes or so to rotate the set once a year.

Yeah, but what about when you've used all four sides of the carbide? Then you have to take the screw out of the head, remove the used carbide and put a new one in it's place. Depending on the size of the head, this could take quite some time, right?

Now, if you had a Tersa head, all you'd have to do is tap down on the gib, slide the old knife out, slide a new one in (in my case, four times), start the machine, and the new knives are locked in place and ready to work. You have the choice between carbide and high speed steel. The carbide will last longer, obviously, but the high speed steel will have a keener edge when new and give a somewhat better finish.

[Gary Keedwell]

Come on ...I've known hobbyists who have had their carbide head for over a year and never rotated their inserts. My gosh....If industry still used only HSS in manufacturing , we would not be able to afford decent woodworking equipment.:rolleyes: I bet I could change all the inserts in a head faster then I could change my jointer blades that I have now. And I might not have to do it in my lifetime.
Gary

[Dixon Peer]

Come on ...I've known hobbyists who have had their carbide head for over a year and never rotated their inserts. My gosh....If industry still used only HSS in manufacturing , we would not be able to afford decent woodworking equipment.:rolleyes: I bet I could change all the inserts in a head faster then I could change my jointer blades that I have now. And I might not have to do it in my lifetime.
Gary

C'mon yourself ;). I use high speed steel mostly because it is in fact sharper than carbide and does in fact give a better finish. I'm not a hobbyist, so I go through edge tools faster than a years time; quite a bit faster actually. It takes no more than a minute to change all four knives in a Tersa head.

Now, if you have the old fashioned type head with knives you have to fiddle with, perhaps use a magnetic device to try to attain the proper height adjustment, then you may well be able to install all those little pieces of carbide a little more quickly. But when your time is valuable, as in a professional millwork shop, Tersa is a better way to go.

I don't know what "HSS manufacturing" has to do with affordable woodworking euipment.

[Gary Keedwell]

I don't know what "HSS manufacturing" has to do with affordable woodworking euipment.
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Manufacturing makes the woodworking equipment. They use carbide to make more parts more efficiently. If they were machining with HSS they would spend too much time changing tools. Have you given carbide inserts a chance or is your prejudice unwarranted?;):)

Gary

[JayStPeter]

I have a Byrd cutterhead on my jointer. Aside from the most mentioned things here, I really like the fact that I don't have to think about feed direction. Once I joint a face, I can pick which edge to joint regardless of grain direction.
As for rotating/changing the inserts, it is a bit of a hassle not to crack any of them. You really have to learn how much torque to apply. You also have to ensure that no dust falls into the flat when you pull the insert. However, it still takes significantly less time than it did to realign the straight blades. Tersa heads certainly have the advantage here, but I'll still choose a helical and hope to get a planer with one in the future.

Jay

[Dixon Peer]

I don't know what "HSS manufacturing" has to do with affordable woodworking euipment.
__________________
Visit Peercon.com

Manufacturing makes the woodworking equipment. They use carbide to make more parts more efficiently. If they were machining with HSS they would spend too much time changing tools. Have you given carbide inserts a chance or is your prejudice unwarranted?;):)

Gary

No, my prejudice is warranted. High speed steel does a better job when new and/or kept sharp as it can be sharpened to a better, sharper, keener edge than carbide. I use carbide inserts for a lot of my shaper work: groovers, planing heads, finger joint tooling, and so on. They are good and last a long time. I have also paid up for carbide Tersa knives for my jointer, and they of course last longer than HSS. But, the fact remains, and can't be change, HSS is sharper.

[Gary Keedwell]

I also have a warm spot in my heart for HSS. Let me explain. I grew up in a family owned machine shop, years before the carbide insert era began. I was taught to take HSS blanks to the grinding area and shape my cutting tools by hand. I would then take my "new" tool over to the lathe and shape stainless steel round stock. The set-up involved setting the new bit to the right height and angle. Then the speed and feed and lubricant followed. It was important to keep a slow steady pace as the HSS was very sharp but would dull real fast when it was pushed just a little too much.
To make a long story short, although HSS is used occasionally on special jobs, it has all but disappeared. ( holes and threads are big exception). Needless to say that all the skills that I learned on the lathe using HSS is as useful today as commuting to work on a horse. Now they can literally take a semi-skilled person and put him on the lathe and using carbide inserts, make him look like a 1st Class Machinist.
Sure, HSS is scientifically sharper, but it dulls real fast as compared to carbide. And you right about HSS getting a better initial finish. But don't we all sand our wood after it comes out of our machines?
Gary

[Dixon Peer]

HSS is used in my shop for custom profiles in my shaper tooling. It is also used almost exclusively for molder tooling in the millwork shops around here (North Central New Jersey). I don't see any evidence in our area of the country that it's dying out.

[Gary Keedwell]

HSS is used in my shop for custom profiles in my shaper tooling. It is also used almost exclusively for molder tooling in the millwork shops around here (North Central New Jersey). I don't see any evidence in our area of the country that it's dying out.
Sorry man...I meant it was dying out in machine shops ....machining steel. Alot of machine shop innovations filter down to woodworking. I see CNC has finally made it's way into woodworking, where it has been a stable for decades in the machine shops. Years ago you wouldn't see machine shop measuring tools, for an example, in woodworking catologues. Rather recently, you see dial and digital calipers and dial and digital indicators in most woodworking literature.
Gary

[john blanchard]

Hi lewis,
If you want to try one first hand come to saintjohn after I get home dec 8th, I have them on my 15" delta planer and DJ 20 jointer, Ive only used them a few times but I realy like them. Ive always hated changing blades, the inserts are nice.

[Dixon Peer]

Sorry man...I meant it was dying out in machine shops ....machining steel. Alot of machine shop innovations filter down to woodworking. I see CNC has finally made it's way into woodworking, where it has been a stable for decades in the machine shops. Years ago you wouldn't see machine shop measuring tools, for an example, in woodworking catologues. Rather recently, you see dial and digital calipers and dial and digital indicators in most woodworking literature.
Gary

That's certainly true about machine shop innovations and practices making their way into woodworking. One of my favorite classes in high school was the metal shop; really cool making things with steel I thought. Now, my woodshop makes use of dial calipers, dial indicators, micrometers, all sorts of things that measure to the thousandth of an inch. I am not into CNC though.

[Lewis Cobb]

Hi lewis,
If you want to try one first hand come to saintjohn after I get home dec 8th, I have them on my 15" delta planer and DJ 20 jointer, Ive only used them a few times but I realy like them. Ive always hated changing blades, the inserts are nice.


Hey John !

How's it going? Time's drawing near for you now - only a few weeks to go. You must be chomping at the bit.

Thanks for the invite - I'll be sure to come down and have a go. If you don't have my e-mail still, let me know and I'll send it to you again.

Cheers,
Lewis

[Kevin Groenke]

I'm pretty close to flipping the switch on a Grizzly G0609 but I'm on the fence about the straight knifes vs the grizzly spiral vs the byrd shellix.

We recently upgraded from a DW735 benchtop to a PM209HH so I'm familiar with the benefits of the spiral, but I have reservations about a spiral in a jointer.

I am still surprised about the extent of the scallops generated by the shellix head. It seems that these scallops on an edge may result in problems edge gluing panels. Has anybody observed whether the scallops on edges result the edges not being square or otherwise not gluing up well?

Is there any appreciable difference in the surface left by the Byrd head vs the Grizzly head? I know that the Byrd is a true helix and the Grizzly is more of a stepped helix, but I'm most interested in the resulting surface. The Byrd inserts are visibly crowned which results in the scallops, can somebody with a Grizzly spiral head look at your inserts and tell me whether the inserts are square or crowned like the Byrd's?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

Anybody have an estimate on what an old 8" delta/rockwell 37-315 might be worth?

[Gary Keedwell]

Only thing that I can contribute to the carbide insert heads on a jointer is that I have not heard of one instance of a glue failure from edging a board. I have heard of visual markings left from milling but none that would hinder a glue up. I am particulary interested as I have worked with carbide inserts in the manufacturing industry and have an interest in buying one for my retirement hobby shop. I like the idea of never changing blades again.
Gary

[Paul B. Cresti]

Do yourself a favor and simply find a jointer with a Tersa head :D much easier in the long run (also see Esta or similair type)....but if you are concerned with the spiral type stuff then look at this !

http://www.casadeimacchine.com/cgi/news.html?nome_file=HC_uk-us.htm&lingua=us

I still do not understand why people are so concerned with noise....it a shop with machines and it will be loud....deal with it and where ear protection...don't get me started ;)

[Paul Johnstone]

I don't want to start a war here, but having never owned either a planer or a jointer, I am trying to learn what's great and what's not in my research of them. I

I have regular blades on both my planer and jointer.
I put my wood through a drum sander many times, so I don't worry about tearout as much. Sure, there's a little bit that still shows after heavy sanding, but since I do most of my work in oak, it's not that noticable.

I think you have to make the call yourself. I do admit that they are pretty cool. It would be nice to just rotate a fresh edge as needed and the other benefits touted .. but are they a "must have"? IMO, no.