Clear Vue vs Oneida, HP Question

[John Karam]

Ok a dust collection thread! :-)

The Clear Vue cyclone is 5 HP while the closest comparable (in price) Oneida cyclone (Dust Gorilla) is 2-3 HP. Now I've read through many posts, some with folks that have shop sizes similar to mine (24x30), and come to the conclusion that a 2-3 HP will do fine for me. Why does the Clear Vue have a 5 HP motor, yet doesn't cost all that much more? An Oneida system with 5 HP goes for much more then a Clear Vue. Whats being sacrificed in the Clear Vue system? (I know Oneida is a brand most seem to have great experiences with and Clear Vue is a new independent business that has established a good reputation but in business sense is an "underdog.")

Now my main question is, should I expect a major/noticeable performance gain with a Clear Vue 5 HP over a Oneida Dust Gorilla 2 or 3HP?
I will be running a one (occasional two) man shop with a 20'' planer, 8'' jointer, and 16'' bandsaw being the biggest tools. (Table saw will be as well as well of course).

With either the Clear Vue or Dust Gorilla (lets assume a 2 HP), who long of a duct run should I be able to pull?

Thanks for the help

[Rick Potter]

John,

I have been debating the Clear Vue Vs the 3HP Onieda Super Gorilla for quite a while. Perhaps someone in the know will have a good answer, but I do know the SG uses a Baldor TEFC motor rated for continuous duty vs the CV Leeson open style motor that, I believe is rated for compressor duty, which means running in cycles, not continuous.

The CV plastic construction intrigues me, but on the other hand I know the SG is built like a tank, but on the third hand it costs more too.

I am not smart enough to figure out the various claims for airflow, but it seems the CV might flow more, that is till you visit the Onieda site, where they compare them using what I believe is a different testing method....I think it is meant to be totaly confusing to the layman. There seems to be some acrimony between the two companies over design. No one comes right out and says it but it looks like perhaps Onieda uses Bill Pentz's designs and never paid him.

I have seen several road tests in magazines and Onieda seems to come out on top ( of Grizzly and Penn State, etc.), but I have never seen the CV in one of these tests.

So...........let me add my voice to yours and say........"a little help here please".

Rick Potter
future cyclone owner

PS: In all fairness, I should say that I used to have an Onieda 1 1/2 HP cyclone in my old shop. It worked pretty well, but sure seemed loud to me, even after I vented it outside.

[Frederick Rowe]

John - You are asking all the right questions, and selecting a cyclone can appear confusing based on sales literature alone. I have a 2 HP Oneida Super
Gorilla and am completely happy with it. Many Clear View owners feel the same way about theirs, it isn't a matter of quality or customer service. Probably both products are in the end capable of producing similar results.

Call Oneida and simply ask your questions to one of their customer service technicians. Unit size is based on number and type of machines to run, distance of duct work, and physical size available for the cyclone. Get prices, bracketed with more and less expensive options. Don't forget shipping. Then call Clear View, get the same. If they are close, you won't go wrong with either.

Remember, duct work design is just as important as the cyclone you select. You will reduce the efficiency of your system if you run the whole thing off of flex tubing. Duct work is expensive. Some have said, be prepared to spend an equal amount on duct work as the collector.

My experience with Oneida was good, no high pressure sales, a lot of questions from the CS rep, and plenty of options. Oneida offers free shipping of duct work orders over $100.

Ask plenty questions, compare apples to apples, and pull the trigger. An effective cyclone collection makes woodworking much more enjoyable. I still smile when I dump a barrel full of saw dust, without any in the filter cup.

[Jim Becker]

The best way to compare the systems, IMHO, is via the fan curves. (Preferrably independently developed) Cyclone performance is a combination of the cyclone design, impeller design and motor the motor's ability to spin the former efficiently.

My Onieda system is a "2hp Commercial" system, relatively equivalent to the current 2 hp Super Gorilla. It performs very well and efficiently services my 14" J/P, sliding table saw (including the overarm guard when I choose to use it) and all the other tools in my approximately 22'x30' shop.

[Stan Welborn]

John,

I have been debating the Clear Vue Vs the 3HP Onieda Super Gorilla for quite a while. Perhaps someone in the know will have a good answer, but I do know the SG uses a Baldor TEFC motor rated for continuous duty vs the CV Leeson open style motor that, I believe is rated for compressor duty, which means running in cycles, not continuous.


From the ClearVue website:


Leeson motors: I need to talk about our motors. Again, I've seen criticism about using a "compressor duty" motor. I would like to clear up some misconceptions about compressor duty motors. These motors should not be confused with the cheap overrated motors that are being sold on the small air compressors sold in retail outlets etc. I bought one of these air compressors. It was rated at 4.5 "peak" hp. It runs on a 15 amp 110V circuit. Our motor is a "real" 5hp compressor duty motor that has a full load rating of 20.8 amps at 230V. It is continuous duty which means it's made to run continuously. Compressor duty motors are capacitor start, capacitor run motors designed for operation under very heavy loads. Leeson is one of only two motor manufacturers still manufacturing motors in the US. All the rest have moved overseas. Leeson is a top-notch reputable company that manufactures top of the line motors.

[Paul Johnstone]

I am not going to give an opinion on Onedia, as I don't have one.

But I have a Clearvue, and I will say that it's wonderful.
The workshop no longer smells like sawdust after working.
I've developed an allergy to Red Oak, but it doesn't bother
me at all when I use the ClearVue.
As others pointed out, ductwork and dust hoods (collection
point at the tool) are also important. Google for Bill Penz
dust collection page.
In the end, I chose Clearvue because it was a definite
Penz design. I read many testemonials about how little
dust makes it to the filters. The ClearVue inlet is
also made to accomodate 6" sewer and drain pipe, which
is handy. I believe the Oneida is configured to spiral
ductwork (I forget the diameter).
Anyhow, I can run my Supermax 37" dual drum sander on the
Clearvue and not smell any saw dust afterwards. To me, that
is amazing.
However, I will say that based on what I've read on Oneida,
it's probably a good system too. Never seen one in action,
so I don't want to comment specifically on it.

[Don C Peterson]

I don't have either system but I think when I'm ready to buy, I'll go with the Clearvue. From what I can tell, Clearvue is able to offer a superior product at competitive price because it is a small family-run business with low overhead. They license their cyclone design from Bill Pentz which design has proven to be one of the more efficient out there. I do kind of think that 5HP might be a bit of overkill for my purposes, but as was pointed out by others the CV 5hp setup is very price competitive with other's 2-3hp systems, so where's the downside?

Also to emphasize Stan's response to the "compressor duty" question. Leeson's definition of compressor duty is not the same thing as some other manufacurers. It is a continuous duty motor and a true 5hp, it's not a cheap import that could only push out 5hp with its dying breath. One thing about such a massive motor is that Leeson recommends 6 ga wire. Wire that big is expensive and difficult to work with.

[Jim O'Dell]

I have the CV unit and I'm happy with it. But like most, I don't have any way of comparing it to the Oneida. I think you'll find that there are very few who have had one of each. It's just not something many people go through and try. Although I have heard of one or 2 people who have had both, but don't for the life of me remember where I saw that information.
As far as the comment about Oneida using the Pentz design, I don't think Bill even says that has happened. There is a statement somewhere on Bill's site on what he believes the basic design perameters are based on. And I bet most all cyclone designs are based on them or something similar, then tweaked to how they think will best perform the job at hand.
Good luck with the decision. The CV was the best for my money and shop. Only you can decide which unit will be best for you and your's. Jim.

[Rick Gifford]

Difference in cost, in my guess would come down to size of company and overhead. ClearVue is a family business with a half dozen employees. Oneida is much larger with more expenses.

I have the ClearVue, after reading all of Bill Pentz information. I still need my ductwork put up but the cyclone is installed and working. Its extremely powerfull! I got the 14" cyclone model as I have a small shop and didnt need to spend extra money on the larger one.

I don't like some of the "fix-it-yourself" aspects of the ClearVue when installing. Make your own wall mount, trim some plastic that doesnt fit right.... etc.

But for the cost I am ok with it. Its the cheapest on the market that is able to do the job as well.

I have only seen one post somewhere of a person ditching his Oneida and going with the ClearVue. Other than that one post, I think folks are satisfied regardless of which system they have.

[Don C Peterson]

To quote from BillPentz.com:

"I gave Ed permission to build my design in trade for a small royalty on each unit sold."

Bill maintains that other manufacturers have essentially ripped off major element of his design, but he doesn't name names and I won't venture to speculate here...But Ed Morango of Clearvue cyclones has certainly licensed Bills design.

[Peter Kuhlman]

Don't know if this is worth thinking about - where you live. I am in Louisiana and suffer high rates to keep the local nuke plant operational as well as trying to pay for the hurricane reconstruction from 2 years ago. My cyclone is a 2hp WoodSucker and works decently but not great - mdf dust easily makes it's way through to the final filter. My comment is about the 5hp motor. I can see on my electric bill when I am using my cyclone extensively along with the hooked up tool of course. Primarily my 3hp table saw. As a part time woodbutcher, my use is sporatic. As such, electrical consumption is easily seen on my bill. A 5hp motor to me would be kind of scary just in operational cost. If 3hp will do the job efficiently, the 5hp consumption could be a waste. In theory, the motor is sized to the load of the impeller. Just seems to me that 5hp is way overkill for most users especially if only one tool at a time is in use.
Pete

[Tom Veatch]

...(The Leeson) is a continuous duty motor and a true 5hp, it's not a cheap import that could only push out 5hp with its dying breath. One thing about such a massive motor is that Leeson recommends 6 ga wire. Wire that big is expensive and difficult to work with.

No squawks from me about the expense and difficulty of 6 ga wire. However, I have that motor, and, IIRC, the nameplate shows an FLA of 20.7 amps @ 240 volts. I don't know why Leeson would recommend 6 ga wire. That is serious, serious overkill unless you've got a super long wire run from the box. A 30 amp (10 ga) dedicated circuit is quite sufficient unless there are some very extraordinary conditions.

[Tom Veatch]

... A 5hp motor to me would be kind of scary just in operational cost. If 3hp will do the job efficiently, the 5hp consumption could be a waste. In theory, the motor is sized to the load of the impeller. Just seems to me that 5hp is way overkill for most users especially if only one tool at a time is in use.
Pete

One point I'd like to make is that if a 3HP motor is spinning the impeller at the motor's rated RPM, a 5HP motor rated at the same RPM (assuming equivalent torque curves and efficiencies) spinning the same impeller won't consume significantly more electricity than the 3HP motor.

A motor in normal operation draws only enough current to maintain it's rated rpm. My 5HP Leeson (same as the CV motor) driving a "2HP" Sheldons Engineering Airfoil Blower Wheel draws (last time I checked) a little over 8 amps. The FLA of the motor is 20.7 amps. If the FLA is equivalent to the 5HP rating on the motor, 8 amps is equivalent to about .... 2HP.

[Peter Kuhlman]

Tom - I do agree with you. But, if this is the case, why design a cyclone using an oversized motor as it would increase the purchase price quite a bit? Going from 2 to 3 hp is about $80 and from 3 to 5 hp is about $130 based upon Grainger retail pricing dependant upon what motor design is needed. Cyclones I have seen were drawing full load amps as the motor was matched to the load. I do understand that the load changes based upon suction restrictions and discharge pressure limitations. Just curious I guess :) .
Pete

[Ryan Bess]

Another CV owner here. COMPLETELY satisfied with the product and customer service. Ed is a phone call away at any time of the day or night. I had a problem with setup one Saturday night at 8:00pm and was able to reach him by phone!! What a guy!! I can't comment on Oneida, but the research I did before my purchase was positive. Maybe your decision could also take into account whether or not you want to put forth time to assemble and set up the CV. The convenience of pulling a Gorilla out of the box and putting it to work immediatley might be more appealing? You probably can't go wrong either way. Happy dust collecting!

[Paul Johnstone]

. As such, electrical consumption is easily seen on my bill. A 5hp motor to me would be kind of scary just in operational cost. .
Pete

I'm not sure this fear is justified.
I'm just a hobbyist woodworker. Some months I get shop time. Some I get none. I have a Clearvue. I've noticed no difference in my electric bill between the months I do a lot of woodworking and the months I do none.
And my bill is pretty high as well.

I only run the cyclone for 5-10 minute bursts here and there. I doubt it really uses that much electricity per month. Now, maybe if you let it run constantly, it would be more.

As a comparison, I grow plants indoors. A 1000 watt metal halide lightbulb, on for 12 hours/day costs me an extra $1 per day.. I doubt a Cyclone uses that much per day (since it's not running constantly for 12 hours), although I don't know how many watts it draws.. Let's say 20 amps for the sake of argument (which is probably a little high after it gets started.. Ed says some of his customers get by with a 20 amp breaker, others have problems on the startup, when it temporarily draws more.).. That's 4.4 kilowatts.
So, if you run it constantly for 3 hours, and your electric rate is comparable to mine, it costs about a dollar. Seems like a reasonable price to pay to protect your lungs.. As I said, I developed an allergy to Red Oak and Walnut after years of poor dust collection.. Not trying to throw a pity party for myself, but I could not do woodworking without a cyclone.

The big payoff for a cyclone is that you are lowering health risks for yourself. That's well worth the 33 cents an hour (which is a high estimate, IMO).

[Tom Veatch]

Tom - I do agree with you. But, if this is the case, why design a cyclone using an oversized motor as it would increase the purchase price quite a bit? ...


Assuming the 3HP motor does the job, there is no technical reason to use a larger motor. That was part of the point I was trying to make. Using a larger motor won't apply more power to the load - but neither will it draw a significantly different current.

On the economics front, there might be reasons. I can't speak to the specific case, but it's conceivable that stocking and supporting 3 or 4 different sizes of motors is more costly than standardizing on one size large enough to satisfy all requirements. Standardization would then open the possibility of realizing an economy of scale in any purchase agreements, etc.

The last time I visited the CV site, IIRC, there were about 3 different sizes of impellers in their "full sized" units. A perfectly matched motor to each of those blower sizes would require purchasing and supporting 3 different motors, yet I only recall the one 5HP motor being offered. If my recollector isn't faulty, it looks like they may have standardized on the 5HP Leeson. I certainly can't speak to their reasons for doing so, if in fact that's what they've done.

[Dave Norris]

I have a 30x30 shop. I got a Clearvue a couple summer's ago. The cyclone came in good shape, and was thoughtfully built. I mounted it, fired it, and about 3 seconds into the trial run the smoke started to fly. I checked the wires, it seemed I wired it right. Fired it up again, more smoke. Checked more wires, current draw, etc. Seemed ok. Called Ed, we talked, decided I woudl take it to a motor shop and get it checked. Motor was cooked, but the place couldn't say the cause. Called Ed, he sent me a NEW motor to use while we fussed with mine. Took the old one to a Leeson certified place, they said it failed on startup and was not my fault. Talked with Ed, he had them ship the new motor to him and we were square. He took care of me, and other than some of my time, I didn't miss much shop time. I cold have easily been without the cyclone for a month, but as it was, I didn't miss more than a day. 5hp is more than enough, and my thought was that a full 5 hp is better for those times I startup with all the gates closed, etc. Great product, great guy.

[Chris Friesen]

Tom - I do agree with you. But, if this is the case, why design a cyclone using an oversized motor as it would increase the purchase price quite a bit?

I believe the cyclone design works out to around 3.5HP (I saw it on either the Clearvue site or Bill Pentz's, can't remember which). You can't buy a motor at that rating, so they rounded up.

Also, I seem to recall that Clearvue gets a good price on the 5HP motors.

[Chris Friesen]

5hp is more than enough, and my thought was that a full 5 hp is better for those times I startup with all the gates closed, etc. Great product, great guy.

Actually, starting up with gates closed is the *easiest* on the motor as the impeller isn't pushing any air. It's when all the gates are open that the motor works the hardest.

[dan mahler]

Actually, starting up with gates closed is the *easiest* on the motor as the impeller isn't pushing any air. It's when all the gates are open that the motor works the hardest.

Chris is correct.

It was recommended to me (from Oneida) to test the amp draw when all the blast gates are open to ensure it does not exceed the defined max amperage.

From the FAQ section of the Oneida Air Systems Guide:

What will happen if I turn the collector on with all of the blast gates closed? Will it burn out the motor?
Why not?
It does not hurt the collector motor when all of the blast gates are closed. Closing the blast gates shuts
off the air flow to the fan. The fan is doing “no work” so amperage draw drops. You can only overload
the motor by not having enough resistance. For example, turning the collector on without the dust bin
in place or running the fan without connecting it to a cyclone separator or ductwork.

[Eric Gustafson]

I ordered a Clearvue and talked to Ed Morgano on the phone. He stated that the 5hp motor only draws about 12.8 amps in normal operation. That is much less than the 20 FLA. It should not cost appreciably more to operate than a 3hp.

[Doug Mason]

I have the CV and am very happy with it; however, the CV is made of MDF and plastic-so for long-term, heavy use, I would be suspect of it. As with the others, I havn't seen an Oneida.

[Doug Shepard]

... One thing about such a massive motor is that Leeson recommends 6 ga wire. Wire that big is expensive and difficult to work with.

I'm only going by some tables that the guys at the electrical supply house checked when I bought the contactor relay but 8 ga and a 40A breaker was what they recommended, though I'm pretty certain there are an awful lot of folks running 30A and thinner wire with no problems.

[Jim O'Dell]

As to the motor size vs the different fans, Bill recommends the 5hp Leeson for his design. The other size fans came after that. Ed started with the Sheldon fan, then moved to using a fan from, IIRC, Martin Sprocket (I have this one) to I believe making his own now. Probably the 16" comes closest to needing the full 5hp motor. Chris' post about rounding up from the 3.5 hp would make sense.
Here are the readings I did on my Clear Vue. This is copied from a post of mine of the CV forum. At the time, I had 3 branches of 6" PVC, one with a 4" wye to the BS, one 6" to the TS, and a 6" for future use, I call the multistation, not hooked up to anything.

blast gates open / red wire / black wire

all closed / 7.2 / 7.1
TS open (6") / 14.1 / 13.7
BS open (4") / 13.1 /13.7
TS and BS open / 15.5 / 14.8
Multi station (6")
TS and BS / 15.7 / 15.5
multistation and TS / 15.8 / 15.4

I never pulled close to the rated capability of the motor. With all gates open, I have a total length of about 45' of 6" pipe, and about 6' of 4". Very short pieces of flex, 14" at the TS, 6" at the BS. I do have about 4' of flex to the OH guard I'm building, but it's not in the readings. Hope this helps. Jim.

[John Karam]

Wow! quite a bit of a response...Thanks for the input guys!

Currently the only reason I'm hesitant on the Clear Vue is because of the use of MDF. Though it may just be a minor detail and its not like I couldn't make a new pieces.

I will likely just flip a coin on this ;-)

[Shawn Walker]

Hi All; First post on this forum. From what I've read so far, it seems like a good group of people here. :D

I'm also looking to upgrade to a cyclone. I've decided on the Oneida.
What I haven't decided on is whether to blow the extra dough on the 3 hp. instead of the 2 hp. With shipping it's $500.00 more.:(
I see there is a few cyclone owners here, and I would appreciate any words of wisdom you have. I've never even watched a cyclone in action. All my knowledge on the subject is only what I've read.
Thanks Shawn.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread. It just seemed more appropriate to place the question here, rather than start another thread.

[Eric Gustafson]

I've never even watched a cyclone in action.

Never seen a cyclone in action? ;)

http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Videos.htm

[Greg Crawford]

John,

I presently have a single stage Shop Fox with a 1 micron bag from American Fabric Filter. After seeing the change from the stock bag to the 1 micron bag, I can attest to the difference a good filter makes. Now, I want to upgrade to a cyclone, and was leaning toward the Super Dust Gorilla, but after doing some research, will probably go with the Clearvue. My main reason is the effeciency of the seperation of the cyclone itself. I've grown weary of cleaning my filter bag, and don't look forward to trying to keep up with a canister filter when I upgrade. After doing some reading, hearing the testimonials and seeing the vids, it looks to me like the Penz design that Clearvue uses (100%, including the inclined ramp) does the best job keeping dust from ever getting to the filter.

If you also look at the Onieda catalog, you'll find some confusing, if not even contridicory, information. One item I noticed is it mentions a non-sparking aluminum impeller. This can be important in a single stage unit, but in a cyclone, the seperator is before the impeller, so for anything to reach the impeller that may cause a spark is highly unlikely, if not down right impossible. The filters that Clearvue uses are also independently tested, which impressed me.

Either way, I think you'll be happy, but the Clearvue is very impressive.

[Russ Massery]

First of all I feel you can't knock a unit that you've never owned or used. So I never comment on anything I have never owned. That said, I had a Onieda 2hp I was very disappointed with it's performance. Sold it, bought a Clearvue could not be happier.

[Steve knight]

I run my clearview with a 3hp baldor motor. works pretty well.

[Phil Thien]

To quote from BillPentz.com:

"I gave Ed permission to build my design in trade for a small royalty on each unit sold."

Bill maintains that other manufacturers have essentially ripped off major element of his design, but he doesn't name names and I won't venture to speculate here...But Ed Morango of Clearvue cyclones has certainly licensed Bills design.

How similar is BP's design to the Donaldson-Torit design? I've looked at D-T stuff that is years old and they look remarkably similar to the CV stuff. And of course, D-T goes way back.

[Phil Thien]

Tom - I do agree with you. But, if this is the case, why design a cyclone using an oversized motor as it would increase the purchase price quite a bit? Going from 2 to 3 hp is about $80 and from 3 to 5 hp is about $130 based upon Grainger retail pricing dependant upon what motor design is needed. Cyclones I have seen were drawing full load amps as the motor was matched to the load. I do understand that the load changes based upon suction restrictions and discharge pressure limitations. Just curious I guess :) .
Pete

I would like to venture a guess at why this is so important. A compressor and dust collector share a similar design issue, which is required startup torque. Just like a compressor motor is hard to start when the tank is charged, a dust collector is difficult to start due to a large amount of mass and a great deal of air resistance. From my perspective, a compressor-rated motor is design to deal with these difficult starting conditions.

[Jim Becker]

First of all I feel you can't knock a unit that you've never owned or used. So I never comment on anything I have never owned. That said, I had a Onieda 2hp I was very disappointed with it's performance. Sold it, bought a Clearvue could not be happier.

Russ, please clarify which Onieda 2hp product you had. There is a marked difference between the 2hp "component" system (older design) and several other 2hp units available earlier and currently. For example, the 2hp Commercial unit I have has substantially better performance than the 2hp Component system...

[John Karam]

Yeah, I'm interested to know which Oneida system you had Russ.

Thanks :)

[Burt Alcantara]

I bought the Clearvue CV1400 for one reason only. It is the only cyclone that will fit in my 82" ceiling. I did have to build my own trash bin but it's just a box so no problem there.

My only comparison was my previous Harbor Freight DC which never worked to my satisfaction.

The suction or air movement, whatever you want to call it, is very powerful. It will easily suck up tools. Presently, I only use it on my bandsaw but I cut a few hundred pounds of logs almost everyday. No dust. Got that? No dust.

Burt

[Mike Spanbauer]

I own the Pro2000 Oneida, 5hp cyclone. It has a 5hp Baldor F class motor. I've amp'ed it and it pulls between 95 and 110 at start. With all gates closed, it only pulls 11A and with all gates open it pulls 14.5A

I purchased this unit vs. the ClearVue for the following reasons:

It is built like a TANK - this is not a sheet metal unit, this is plate steel... I don't know how thick it is precisely but you can NOT flex the walls. The entire unit is VERY heavy however which proved a challenge during installation.
All I had to do was uncrate and bolt together - everything lined up out of the box and was OVER-engineered (I like it that way).
5hp unit will accomodate my next shop without having to sell and upgrade. I do not mind coordinating equipment moves up to a certain weight (~800lbs) and, being a hobbyiest, I can't take a deduction annually on the value of the equipment. Therefore a 50% loss on an item this big is a VERY big deal. Buy once, cry once.
It comes with a very good filter, just expensive as sin to replace. I will likely replace with a Wynn poly or Belfab when the time comes. It's in great shape currently though!
Comes with a built in muffler and due to the enormous mass (500lbs) it isn't terribly loudI simply ignored all of the marketing flak, back and forth arguing, and emotional feedback from users. Yes, there is a lot of misinformation out there and it's dang tough to sort through :(

It was not cheap though.

michael

[Phil Thien]

There is a marked difference between the 2hp "component" system (older design) and several other 2hp units available earlier and currently. For example, the 2hp Commercial unit I have has substantially better performance than the 2hp Component system...

In what way, did they redesign the cyclone itself?

I ask because I sometimes see these units available on the second-hand market and I don't want to get an inferior design just to save a few bucks.

[Brad Shipton]

I would pay close attention to Mike's comment regarding the build time. If you want a nicely painted DC and dont want to hire an electrician it will take time to get it all painted and wired with a remote neatly. I just finished building my ClearVue and totally underestimated this. As far as cost, I think the ClearVue is more $ once you take into account the filters and the separate shipping of them. Also, I don't believe the ClearVue has the same quality electrical as compared to the Onedia. I went with a mag switch just like the Onedia, but I am a little sensitive to electrical problems having dealt with a flaky General switch for the last few months. I am very pleased with the ClearVue and was amazed when I watched it pick up my barrel until it was almost 1/2 full (45gal tank).

Good luck

[Jack Diemer]

Doesn't matter the horsepower, all the motors spin at the same speed. The reason you get bigger horsepower is the ability to spin a bigger/badder impeller without burning up the motor. All the cyclones in question are very high quality. The fan curve should tell you performance if thats what your concerned about. If the manafacturer stands behind there motor/impeller combination, you should be fine.

[Jim Becker]

In what way, did they redesign the cyclone itself?

I ask because I sometimes see these units available on the second-hand market and I don't want to get an inferior design just to save a few bucks.

They have made a number of adjustments...contact them directly for specifics...but even in the "component systems" they added things like neutral vanes and changed some of the metrics in recent years to improve overall performance. The 2hp Commercial and the subsequent Gorilla series added even more. The impellers have also been improved.

[Brent Simons]

I have been collecting facts on this for some time. I don’t own either but I have seen both a Clearvue and an Oneida unit in operation. The first thing I noticed about the Clearvue is that it was very noticeably loud.(the owner complained about this and that he spent a lot of time assembling and buying extra parts that were not included) The barrel was not clear anymore because the swirling material had etched the inside, so it really was not see through anymore. The plastic and particle board construction is really not very impressive. The particle board sagged in the middle and the plastic barrel was cracked on the seam.

On the other hand the 2.5HP Oneida was very solidly built and a lot quieter. Previously mentioned on this forum it makes a lot of sense that they both have 14/15 inch fan wheels and 3450 RPM motors, so they have to have roughly equivalent air flow, regardless of the HP claims. Turns out that the Clearvue is a 5HP in name only, again as per posts on this forum, and doesn’t draw nearly enough amps to be functioning as a 5HP. They are also roughly the same price, except the Oneida comes complete with a starter switch, remote and filter. Forum posters say that both separate well with just a trace in filter after hours of operation, but in the end it’s the filter that stops the really fine dust and I don’t see where the paper blended filter Clearvue recommends could be better than the Oneida spunbond filter. Quite frankly I really don’t see how you can compare these two units apples to apples.

[Rob Cohen]

What counts here is CFM, particularly under load. The system needs to move enough air at a given load(static pressure )to power your system. This is a question for the manufacturer when they see your system design. So, if a given unit that is 3HP meets your needs there is no current reason to go bigger..I say current as you may perhaps want to upgrade to a larger longer pipe system in the future
Electricity is likely to get cheaper. A good way to save power is to get the remote relay start(there is one listed at C View). You'll be more likely to keep the system off when it's not needed
Thats my 2 cents

Rob

[Wade Lippman]

I would like to venture a guess at why this is so important. A compressor and dust collector share a similar design issue, which is required startup torque. Just like a compressor motor is hard to start when the tank is charged, a dust collector is difficult to start due to a large amount of mass and a great deal of air resistance. From my perspective, a compressor-rated motor is design to deal with these difficult starting conditions.

I think you are wrong there; there isn't much load on a DC until it gets moving briskly, and then there is plenty of torque to run it. A compressor and a DC are almost exactly the opposite.
A 1hp motor could start the CV easily enough; it would just be unable to get it up to speed.
I also have wondered about the 5hp motor. Rounding the 3.5hp up to 5 doesn't make a whole lot of sense; they would have just cut the design down to 3hp and made it a few hundred dollars cheaper without changing the performance much.
I "suspect" it is a particularly cheap motor, and it is one reason I went with Oneida.

[Paul Johnstone]

As far as noise goes, I won't deny that the Clearvue makes noise.
I don't know how the noise is vs the Oneida.

One thing we should all remember though is to wear hearing protection in the shop. I know it's a pain, especially with a resperator and an eye/face shield, but most of the tools you are collecting dust from make a lot of noise as well.

As a college student, I really wish I had a better motorcycle helmet. I've lost a lot of hearing out of my right ear (the loud exhaust pipes were on that side). Take care of your hearing, you don't want to lose it faster than nature will take it from you..

Ok, thanks for listening to my lecture :)

[Tom Veatch]

...I "suspect" it is a particularly cheap motor, and it is one reason I went with Oneida.

I'm assuming you're talking about the Leeson 5HP. If so, the motor is a P145K34DB1C and, I believe the MSRP for the motor with the 145T flange mount is around $450. I tried to check that on the Leeson site but the site is so Gawd-Awful slow that I lost patience and went with my memory. The modification (by Leeson) to add the C face mount is an addition $125. So from Leeson, the motor would be about $575. A google search on the model number only brought up one vendor which doesn't list a price, so I don't know what the street price would be. If interested, you could check the ClearVue site to see what they charge for the motor alone.

I know that doesn't address "cheap" in the quality sense, and you can decide for yourself its position in the "cheap" range in the economic sense.

Edit: The Leeson site finally decided to respond. List price on that motor is shown as $492. (+ $125 /C mount)

[Phil Thien]

I think you are wrong there; there isn't much load on a DC until it gets moving briskly, and then there is plenty of torque to run it. A compressor and a DC are almost exactly the opposite.
A 1hp motor could start the CV easily enough; it would just be unable to get it up to speed.
I also have wondered about the 5hp motor. Rounding the 3.5hp up to 5 doesn't make a whole lot of sense; they would have just cut the design down to 3hp and made it a few hundred dollars cheaper without changing the performance much.
I "suspect" it is a particularly cheap motor, and it is one reason I went with Oneida.

Interesting. A little googling confirms that starting current of dust collectors is substantial (that is why it is suggested that they not be switched on/off too often), same as charged air compressors. I think I was actually correct.

[Steve knight]

Interesting. A little googling confirms that starting current of dust collectors is substantial (that is why it is suggested that they not be switched on/off too often), same as charged air compressors. I think I was actually correct.

I bet it is about the largest load of most any tool in the shop. the fan on a cv is pretty heavy too so it takes a lot to get it up to speed. once there not much power is needed.

[Phil Thien]

The first thing I noticed about the Clearvue is that it was very noticeably loud.(the owner complained about this and that he spent a lot of time assembling and buying extra parts that were not included) The barrel was not clear anymore because the swirling material had etched the inside, so it really was not see through anymore. The plastic and particle board construction is really not very impressive. The particle board sagged in the middle and the plastic barrel was cracked on the seam.


Wow! I've never read a negative post from an actual CV owner. I've never heard of an abrasion, sagging, or cracking issue. I'd imagine at the cost of these things that if these were typical failure modes we'd be reading first-hand instead of second-hand accounts.

[Steve knight]

Wow! I've never read a negative post from an actual CV owner. I've never heard of an abrasion, sagging, or cracking issue. I'd imagine at the cost of these things that if these were typical failure modes we'd be reading first-hand instead of second-hand accounts.

Mine is not clear anymore but you can still see the dust. but with all of the tropicals I cut and the padouk all plastic gets stained after awhile.
but I would like to see the mdf ring changed. I reinforced mine. but I use mine sometimes all day long and it is not a problem.
to reduce noise on a cyclone you need to make a muffler for it. it's not that hard. but it is pretty noisy as is.

[Wade Lippman]

Interesting. A little googling confirms that starting current of dust collectors is substantial (that is why it is suggested that they not be switched on/off too often), same as charged air compressors. I think I was actually correct.

My little Senco compressor gradually went up to full 3a when there was no pressure in the tank. With 75psi in the tank it spiked to 5a, and dropped to 3a.
My PC pancake gradually built to 8a with no pressure in the tank. At 75psi it spiked at 11a and dropped to 8a.

On the other hand my 2hp DC spiked off the 40a scale (when I reset to 400a scale it didn't register properly) and dropped to 10a. That is with 20' of 5" hose and bags on.

I don't know what to make of this; it is exactly the opposite of what I expected.
However it suggests that a compressor duty motor will not be able to handle a DC properly because it will not be designed to handle the high starting current a DC (apparently) requires.

Perhaps someone has a compressor with a 2hp motor to try, as that might be more relevant than my little compressors.

[Steve knight]

a dc will have the lowest load when it is closed off and the highest with a lot of air.

[Wade Lippman]

I bet it is about the largest load of most any tool in the shop. the fan on a cv is pretty heavy too so it takes a lot to get it up to speed. once there not much power is needed.

What is a CV? I googled and the closest I came is the French term for horsepower.

[Greg Mann]

However it suggests that a compressor duty motor will not be able to handle a DC properly because it will not be designed to handle the high starting current a DC (apparently) requires.

Perhaps someone has a compressor with a 2hp motor to try, as that might be more relevant than my little compressors.

Air compressors are or should be designed with a dump valve to unload the pressure in front of the motor so that there is no load on start-up. This is somewhat in line with your comments above on the relative suitability of compressor motors but I would not take that notion too literally. There are many applications that electric motors are used for and a lot of overlap in choices. It always makes sense, when possible, to have a motor start under no load conditions.

I don't have a 2 HP compressor to compare but I do have a 200 HP unit. The motor was fried on it because the dump valve was not set up properly when the unit was built and the installer/dealer never caught the condition, even on scheduled maintenence calls. You don't want to know what the cost would have been if the manufacturer hadn't stood behind it.

[Tom Veatch]

What is a CV? I googled and the closest I came is the French term for horsepower.

I believe Steve is referring to a ClearVue cyclone.

Regarding use of a "compressor duty" motor on a DC as mentioned elsewhere in this thread:

If the compressor has an unloading valve, the startup load for both compressors and DCs is the rotary inertia of the rotating parts. Assuming similar sized motors, I would expect that to be somewhat higher in a DC

Excerpt from a Leeson "Basic Training" manual:



Compressor Duty * Single & Three Phase
Air compressor, pump-fan and blower duty applications which require
high breakdown torque and overload capacity matching air compressor
loading characteristics.
...
Capacitor Start motors are designed in both moderate and high starting torque types with both having moderate starting current, high breakdown torques. Moderate-torque motors are used on applications in which starting requires torques of 175% or less or on light loads such as fans, blowers, and lightstart pumps. High-torque motors have starting torques in excess of 300% of full load and are used on compressors, industrial, commercial and farm equipment.



Based on that, I would expect a capacitor start compressor duty motor to be the motor of choice for a DC.

[Mike Spanbauer]

Also, for those discussing amperage, I did provide my startup amps in my earlier post and the run amps for my Oneida... they take a ton of juice at startup (over 100A) but that's a temporal spike and settles down to below 20A very, very rapidly.

With my 7 gates, and central 8" pipe I pull over 1500cfm @ 4770FPM and that's a 13.3A load. I believe (but, am not certain) that I have a 15" impeller... *Cast aluminum alloy 356T-51 / backward inclined / non-sparking, non-ferrous as required by NFPA fire code / dynamic, two-plane balanced to ISO 6.3 specifications.* is the spec from their site... I have no clue what it means.

Funny thing is that achieving spec at the DC is easy (although often emotional). The real challenge in a solid DC network is good (great?) ducting and great (or phenomenal) hoods and devices on the tools... which is the greatest single fault imo of DC designs (not that we can affect this easily).

mike

[Brad Shipton]

Mine is covered too, but looks pretty cool when I was milling bloodwood. Kinda like a heart pumping blood. Hearing protection is a must.

[Andy Calenzo]

Note: This post is a 'Quick Reply' to Rick Potter's Post #2 which mentions the 'Open Drip Proof' motor design and also the TEFC - 'Totally Enclosed' motor design.
My name is Andy Calenzo and I am an engineer at Oneida. We thought that it might be useful to explain the differences between these two different motor designs as a service to the Sawmill Creek woodworking community. Please see our summary below:


"What does TEFC and ODP mean? This is one of the most common questions that we receive. We use TEFC motors on all our dust collection systems. What does this mean? TEFC is "Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled" and is probably the most commonly used motor in ordinary industrial environments. This type of motor is constructed with a small external cooling fan mounted on the rear shaft of the motor. This fan is covered by a ventilated sheetmetal housing so as to protect the operator from contacting the external rotating fan. The fan draws air in and pushes it over the motor case removing excess heat and cooling the motor winding. The enclosure is "Totally Enclosed" meaning that the motor is dust tight and has a moderate water seal as well (protected from splashing water).

An ODP motor refers to "Open Drip Proof." ODP motors are relatively inexpensive motors used in normal applications. The construction of an ODP motor consists of a sheet metal enclosure with vents stamped into each of the two end bells to allow good airflow through the inside of the motor. The vents are designed in such a way that water dripping on the motor will not normally flow directly onto the motor winding. A fan is mounted on the motor's rear shaft to push air through the inside of the motor directly across the winding to keep it cool.


According to the US Department of Energy website..."When in operation, a TEFC motor's interior components dissipate heat to a heat sink, which is the motor's casing. The casing is then cooled by the externally-mounted fan. ODP motors can have higher maintenance costs due to the exposure of interior components to dirt and other contaminants. Because TEFC motors are designed for use in harsher environments, their first costs are typically higher than ODP motors.

I hope that you find this information above to be useful. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to contact us.

[Leo Graywacz]

Oneida's new site has a comparison of the Clear Vue Cyclone to theirs

http://72.167.35.138/oneida_advantages/clearvue_comparison.php