Is Woodworking Dying out?

[Randall Frey]

I went to the Woodworking Show this weekend in San Mateo Ca. It was a ghost town (as compared to previous years). About 1/2 the vendors as well as customers, I was shocked. I got there at show open this morning and there were about 20 fans waiting for the doors to open. I remember there was always a long lines. I talked with some of the vendors about it and they said it was snowballing. With the decrease in attendance (sales), the vendors are pulling out, which leads to even lower attendance. I also spoke with my friends at The Woodworker Academy booth which is a great WW school in the area. Their attendance now is way down. He also mentioned attendance levels at other schools are down, like College of the Redwoods which was waiting room only now has openings. He heard our local Woodcraft store stopped their classes due to lack of interest. Marc Adams school is even lower in attendance. What is up with this? Have you seen the same in your area?

[Randy Klein]

I think the problem is due to the dwindling demand of hand-crafted furniture. Unfortunately, it seems like the general public's knowledge as to what constitutes fine furniture is running out. They seem to accept the particle-board IKEA stuff as high quality furniture and then don't understand why real quality furniture costs what it does and takes time to build.

I think the solution to this endemic is education. Woodcraft, et al, needs to focus some of their advertising dollars and class time to provide the general public with what to look for and why they should care when it comes to furniture purchases. If they can increase the demand, more craftsmen will be needed to fill that demand, and more tools will need to be manufactured, etc.

[Jack Hogoboom]

I'm no expert, but that doesn't sound right to me. I thought I had read somewhere that woodworking was on an upswing. Sure seems like there is increased interest in a lot of areas -- particularly turning. It's hard to believe that the backers of Steel City would commit capital to a start up venture like that if there was no prospect for market growth.

From my perspective, the problem lies more with the vendors. The shows around here used to be really good and informative. The show quality has definitely declined to the point where it is a real crap shoot as to what you're going to get. Some of the schools might be getting complacent too. I have taken classes at Peters Valley here in NJ, but their course catalog the last couple of years has been pretty uninspiring. That's why Alan Turner's new school is so attractive to me. Lots of very interesting courses taught by people who are enthusiastic about the craft.

Just my $0.02.

Jack

[Greg Cuetara]

Randall, I can't speak to WW school attendance but I can say that one reason the WW show attendance is down is that the people who run the shows don't have a clue how to bring people in or how to attract different people in different areas of the country. I have a friend who is a manufacturer in the model railroading business and he tells me all the shows are lacking in attendance and he is making much less per show than he did only a few years ago...same problem the people who run the shows don't do their research. Another problem for the shows is this forum. Great for us and I wouldn't change it but why would you want to go down to try and get sold on a large piece of iron when you can do research here and talk to those who have actually used it and know the good and bad.

Personally I like to go and walk around pick up a few things and be able to play with or touch tools I am looking at but the internet has changed that and people are buying without seeing.

As a side note (I am in engineering) what I have noticed about the new generation is that they want to walk out of school and make 50k 60k or 70k a year and demand large raises or they will walk....these 'kids' want to go into business or wall street so that they don't have to get their hands dirty. I personally think there is going to be a problem in 15-20 years when everyone is going to be in business and not that many doing the business....too many managers and not enough workers but only time will tell. WW is a very hard and competitive business ( from what I have seen and heard...i do not know personally ) but if you make a quality product which is unique people will pay almost anything for it but it has to be quality and unique. j

[Bob Michaels]

Randall, I suspect that ww's are just getting tired of the hype at those shows. I have only been to one of the Woodworking Shows, about 18 months ago in York, PA. Only reason I went was we were visiting relatives close by for a few days. Attendance was mediocre and hype was running rampant. In fact, I bought almost the entire Jointech system instead of Incra because I liked the Jointech salesman compared to the Incra salesman, who thought he was a barker at a county fair or something. That was the straw that made my decision easier, because I think the two systems are pretty similiar. I don't see the demise of interest in woodworking, in fact, my local Woodcraft store was pretty busy this weekend (I was shopping there both yesterday and today). I also attended AWFS in Vegas this past July and there certainly was no lack of attendance, by attendees or vendors. Granted, AWFS is not targeted for the hobbyist, but there were many hobbyists in attendance. Last thought, could gas prices be making people think twice about driving to a Woodworking Show. I really don't know.

[Don Bullock]

I think Randy is correct to a point, but the economy has a lot to do with what we're seeing. Just look at the posts here and you can see that many have turned to Internet vendors to save as much money as possible because they don't have the disposible income to go out and buy what they want or even, at times, what they need without scrimping somewhere.

The WWing show we just had here in Southern California was the same as yours. If' it is the same company running the two shows, the ownership of that show just changes hands and, from what I understand, hasn't done a good job recruiting vendors for the shows.

[Ron Hedrick]

The show in the St. Louis area is always in February. Usually the week after my b-day, works for me. Anyway, the show is well attended, actually it is hard to move around. The vendors are packed in like sardines. The problem is, it is mostly, as one Creeker said in another post, trinkets. Lots of jig fixtures, t-track and so on. Very little in the way of informative classes/seminars. You can see the usual demos of the Grrripper, some assorted sawblades, router jigs etc. There are one or two distributors with the heavy iron. Typically after you have been to 2 or 3 years of the shows, you have seen it all. In my opinion this is what is wrong with the shows. They are the same year after year, there is nothing new.

[Jim Becker]

The shows are struggling and have been for years. And it's not a "woodworking show" problem, either...many specialty shows have been hit with reduced traffic and the subsequent loss of vendors, etc.

Woodworking, however, is doing quite well as far as I can see. But the demographics are interesting...I think we had a thread about that awhile back. The reduction in "extra" programs in schools is making less younger folks get exposure. On the other hand, many folks like myself, aged 35-55 or so, who work in high-pressure industries and technology have discovered woodworking as a "mental health activity"...let's hope it works...hee hee

[joe Badoe]

My .2 cents worth. I am a long time woodworker and have seen the business end change in the last 3 years.

My main business was wholesale to the better stores with the cheap imports and cost to stay in business a lot of stores were sold or went to the cheap imports.

Last year I decided it was time to sell most of my tools and take it easy didn't enjoy it like I used to , seemed everthing was a battle.

Also I think younger woodworkers starting out now are becoming discouraged with price of good equipment and raw materials and wonder if it is an enjoyable hobby.

A friend of mine who was an excellent craftsman in making cabinets either had to cut quality and price or quit . He quit

The end of the story is he applied for and got a job selling and delivering Pepsi and is making much more than he was making quality cabinets.

[Brian Kent]

My first show I saw Frank Klausz making dovetails, somebody doing huge mortise and tenon work, steam bending, and a lathe made from foot-powered branches. That got me into woodworking.

In future shows, I saw some good stuff, but also got a headache from the barkers. I look forward to the next one too, but planning my day to finish quickly unless there is a class in a technique that is interesting. I don't want to get a hard sell from someone with a microphone in a high booth.

On the other hand, I think woodworking itself is probably growing quickly. Ask Lie-Niesen, Michael Wenzloff, Lee Valley, E-bay and Grizzly if woodworking is dying.

[Don Hein]

Wife and I drove through a typical new housing development today. The lots might be 5,000 square feet. The garages might be 20x20. Some developments limit the number of vehicles left outside overnight. We get more and more urbanized, more folks in condos, for example.

Housing economics today certainly don't promote large-scale woodworking. Space availability, noise covenants, nearness to neighbors--there are many disincentives. (I wonder if mini-lathe pen turning and scrollsawing are growth segments?)

If woodworking is losing share in the leisure pie, perhaps it compares to needlework. Not every household has a sewing machine anymore, either; the cost of patterns, fabric, and supplies is such that home-crafted clothes would cost many times the prices of off-the-rack items produced with cheap labor. Hand-crafted goods are luxury goods, even when a person makes them for him/herself.

Finally, I just wonder if the long run of "Home Improvement" on TV doesn't even today (re-runs) dampen interest. Yup, be like Tim, your typical home-shop buffoon.

[Randall Frey]

Lots of good feedback! Sounds like most have seen a change although some have not. I have gone to the shows for 10 or more years and yes, I have left at times and said "same old thing" but, it was always packed with people, suddenly now it's different. The pitch men at the show, that could be a separate thread in itself, but I expect it. As some here mentioned gas prices, The guy at the WW school booth said they noticed when gas prices hit $3, attendance dropped off. Cheap furniture, another guy told the story that he was going to build an oak dining table but after pricing out the material, figuring the time to build it, he had seen finished oak tables that he could live with for the same or less and he could just go fishing instead. I hope what ever is happening is just a slump and will pick up.

[Gary Keedwell]

I personally think it is the show's fault that attendance might be down. Of course the show I go to in Massachusetts is always crowded. Maybe it is a regional thing? I find it hard to believe that interest woodworking is waning, not with over 75 million boomers aging and looking for retirement hobbies.
Alot of whining about cheap woodworking imports, but it could very well be the savior of the hobby. I can buy my cabinet saw new today for the same price that I paid for it 12 years ago. Imagine what it would cost if we had to pay the dollar adjusted cost of today? Does you new car cost the same today as 12 years ago?
Someone mentioned Steel City....I hope that they are the faces of the future. Of course, if we have some kind of worldwide depression .......maybe we'll all have more time for woodworking?
Gary

[Chuck Lenz]

I can tell you from my experience as a woodworker for over 20 years that I've lost alot of passion for it. Just a few years ago I finally got fed up with doing stuff for family and friends. It was geting to the point that they were expecting stuff at their price, demanding it. One day I refused and was called about every name in the book from my brother inlaw, after refinishing about 5 peices of furniture, building a shed, frameing out his basement, two work bences for the garage, a Cupalo, and a few other odds and ends, over the course of a few years . I guess I'm to the point that I don't know how much more equipment I want to buy when I can't make $10 an hour useing it. I still like creating things and I still like tools, hard saying where I'll end up. About a year ago I started takeing a interest in building a better dust chute for my Delta Contractors saw out of sheet metal and ended up takeing care of some of the open back of the saw cabinet issues. It was a fun project, I bought a sheet metal brake planning to do more sheet metal work in the future.

[Chuck Lenz]

I can buy my cabinet saw new today for the same price that I paid for it 12 years ago. Imagine what it would cost if we had to pay the dollar adjusted cost of today? Does you new car cost the same today as 12 years ago?

Gary
In alot of cases Gary we aren't geting the same tool as you got 12 years ago. It's not American anymore. I'd rather have a American made 12 year old Unisaw with low miles and well takein care of than a 2007 model Unisaw.

[Brad Evans]

I'm also in the SF Bay area. Reading this review of the San Mateo show kept me away...

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_thread/thread/7eaa8914e07e7cde/7dcf5758437075ee#7dcf5758437075ee


Brad
Urban pix: http://www.citysnaps.net

[Denny Rice]

The shows are struggling and have been for years. And it's not a "woodworking show" problem, either...many specialty shows have been hit with reduced traffic and the subsequent loss of vendors, etc.

Woodworking, however, is doing quite well as far as I can see. But the demographics are interesting...I think we had a thread about that awhile back. The reduction in "extra" programs in schools is making less younger folks get exposure. On the other hand, many folks like myself, aged 35-55 or so, who work in high-pressure industries and technology have discovered woodworking as a "mental health activity"...let's hope it works...hee hee

Jim, I could not agree with you more. There are a lot of younger kids (jr high and high school) that don't even know what a woodshop class is. Wood and metalshop has been replaced by computer classes. We have removed industrial arts from the schools and left a entire class of kids that excell at working with their hands out in the cold. We are raising a generation of kids that cannot change a flat tire or drive a nail. My son is in the 8th grade and the only machines they have in their "tech ed" class is a drill press (bench style) and a small bandsaw. Most of the jr high and high schools in this area sold all of their heavy equipment in an auction about 10 yrs ago.

[Fred Floyd]

I went to the WW show in Seattle a couple of weeks ago. The show had about half the normal vendors and was sparsely attended. Also, the publicity was poor.

I talked to several of the vendors since they had a lot of time to talk. It appears that the original show organizer has now split into two companies producing their own shows. This would explain the shortage of vendors.

After 10 years of attending the shows, I have gotten to the point that I spend more time in the classes and less time with vendors. In the past few years I have fallen victim to their pitches and don't need another one of whatever they are selling.

High end vendors like Leigh have been noticeably absent. My guess is their products didn't appeal to the clientèle of the shows.

I've been involved with woodturning for the last three years. This hear I went to the AAW convention in Portland. They had their largest turnout ever.

One thing I've noticed is that the majority of turners are hobbyists who sell occasionally. That's not to say they're not talented. Our woodturning club has a great selection of talent and 135 paid members. At any meeting 75 or more are in attendance

So, it seems that there is a lot of interest in the "art" side of woodworking. But even there, the common complaint is that the average craft show attendee wants to spend $10-20 for a turned item that took 10 hours to produce.

Personally, I agree with Jim Becker that woodworking is a mental health activity. I derive a great deal of enjoyment creating my projects. Whatever I'm making I can honestly say that the end product is better than money can buy - just don't ask me how long it took to make.

[Vic Damone]

There was a post here on Friday from someone who attended the San Mateo show but I can't find it. Anyway, one of the responses said that the party running the shows in years past had some issues concerning scheduling and the rising cost per stall to the point were many manufacturers passed on exhibiting.

Also, another party is now running the show but may be having difficulties bringing it back up to speed. Again this is from memory of a post from Friday the 9th.

Did anyone get the website for the folks selling those drum sanding kits?

Vic

[Curt Harms]

There isn't rapid innovation in the hobby-small shop woodworking arena. I attended several woodworking shows in the past and they got to the same-old same-old stage. Classes would be the primary motivator for me and they ain't cheap.
Gas ain't cheap. I thought about going to the show in York PA., about 2 1/2 hours for me. I figured it'd cost me $35 for gas plus admission. I had other things that needed attention so I passed. If I were just getting started in the hobby, I might have felt differently.
There used to be an active computer show business and I went to several. I haven't been to one of those in years either and there aren't many any more. Forums & internet shopping have lessened the need for shows. I suspect the same is true for woodworking.Re the demand for quality, I wonder how much the penchant for "redecorating" by throwing out the old and buying new every few years affects the demand for well built goods. Who cares if the screws pull out of the particle board doors in 5 years. I'm gonna pitch 'em in 3 years and buy different shaped/colored particle board wonders.

Curt

[Dan Barr]

Hello all,

I'm 28, and grew up in a junkyard in alabama. I'm about as hands on as white on rice on a paper plate and a glass of milk in a snowstorm! :D

I got deployed to afghanistan last year and had the pleasure of meeting a young man from Utah who was a finished carpenter. His father was a woodworker. His family is Mormon. (shaker???....i have no clue)

He and I woodworked for the Afghan National Army while i was there. Mostly we made furniture out of 1x and 2x pine stock and 1" plywood. this is what we had. we couldnt get anything else. He taught me just about every trick in the book in the span of 6 months.

(pine dust causes bumps on my head. learned that one the hard way :D they went away after i got back, PTL!)

We didnt have a lot of tools either. fortunately for us the previous guy was a woodworker hobbiest and had "acquired" tools from somewhere and filled out the shop for us to the best of his ability considering that this was afghanistan and shipping costs MONEY!

We had two cheap chisels, no way to sharpen them properly, 1 cheap craftsman tablesaw (buzz box), 2 drills, random sheetrock screws, 1 rafter square, 1 makita skillsaw, 1 cheap chop saw, 1 router with 4 cheap bits, two chalklines and various mechanics wrenches and tools.

Not a woodworking operation to say the least, and we built furniture!!! mostly carcase construction with plywood, sheetrock screws and as few joints as we could get away with. Glue in afghanistan is definitely NOT Titebond. The Afghan National Army needed basic furniture and this is what we had.

my friend taught me on these tools the various ins and outs and how to get cheap tools to produce good quality pieces. Basically, i had to learn the actual form and function of things in order to make it work.

From this experience, i had found my new hobby and maybe one day, my retirement job.

when i came back to the states, i tooled up my shop and turned the two car garage into a woodworking shop. I've already built some of my own furniture and i avoid family members like the plague when it comes to "favors". i flat out tell them how much it would cost to do what they want and they shy away quickly. "Thank GOD!" the only one who gets any favors out of me is my girlfriend. I plan on building all of my own furniture over time and i cant wait til i get even better at woodworking.

Ive noticed that my hand tool skills have improved rapidly in just a few projects. :D (that makes me so happy to be developing a little skill)

I had to make just about every jig known to mankind while i was over there and i was very fortunate to have met such a clever young man who knew all this stuff and just thought it was common knowledge and gave it to me for FREE!!! :D feels like i stole something! LOL

I love woodworking more than any other hobby i have ever had and hopefully that will never change. I would love to take up metal working and maybe smithing one day too.

v/r

dan

[Dan Barr]

I would say that "re-decorating" does not involve replacing furniture. But the current generations of americans probably think that replacing furniture is a must when re-decorating.

If that is the case, i pity them.

v/r

dan

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I am guessing that the empty shoes is the logical subsequent result of too much pushy marketing crapola at the shows combined with the plain and simple fact that once you have been to one - you have been to them all - with very few major league exceptions.

I will go to a show if I think I can get a "show price" on something - which of course means I have to be in the market for a tool purchase. Or I might go to one if It's a major show because I am almost guaranteed to see some interesting things.

Other than major shows it's always the same old stuff.

[Jack Ganssle]

Jim, I could not agree with you more. There are a lot of younger kids (jr high and high school) that don't even know what a woodshop class is. Wood and metalshop has been replaced by computer classes. We have removed industrial arts from the schools and left a entire class of kids that excell at working with their hands out in the cold. We are raising a generation of kids that cannot change a flat tire or drive a nail. My son is in the 8th grade and the only machines they have in their "tech ed" class is a drill press (bench style) and a small bandsaw. Most of the jr high and high schools in this area sold all of their heavy equipment in an auction about 10 yrs ago.

Denny,

I took an evening class at a local public high school not long ago. The instructor told me that the county won't let them buy, fix or replace tools any more, as they intend to kill off shop class. That's pretty depressing, and my initial reaction was the same as yours.

But I went to a Catholic high school (a looong time ago) and we had neither shop classes nor even a shop. But my dad always did, and I learned to love working with my hands from him. I wonder how many of us were inspired the same way?

Jack

[Al Willits]

Being a newb at this, the one thing I did notice, was that at our Minn woodworkers guild meetings is that the greater percentage of people are older, and like cliff says, I think most know what they want and unless there's a good deal to be had, the seen one show ya seen them all probably does fit.

Talking to one of the high school wood shop instructors last year he made mention that with liability and insurance costs as high as they are, industrial arts has all but been eliminated in our school system, so much for personal responsiblity.....

Add the fact wood prices are climbing and the learning curve can be quite long, I think the young ones are finding other hobbies.
Not sure the equipment cost is a major issue, as if you buy decent quality tools and just not the most expensive you can find, you probably won't spend more than you would on many other hobbies out there.

Al

[Greg Cole]

Trade shows in general in the internet-information age are a HUGE expense to the vendors when any tid bit of info can be seen-read sitting right at a desk. Moving trailer loads of iron around & booth space is very, very costly.
At the day job, we go to a couple trade shows every year, like last month at the McCormick Place in CHI. We spend at LEAST $100,000 K on that show every 2 years and get very little in new or "hot" sales prospects. Also in the last 8 years, the attandance has fallen through the floor. This year there were 35,000 total attendees INCLUDING vendors. In 99 and 01 it was double that. We've gone away from moving tons & tons of big heavy machinery to using numerous plasma tv's and more informative yet easier to move (ala less expensive to transport & set up).
My ONLY reason for attending a WW'ing show is if I am looking for a sale special price on something very specific. I'd rather spend the day in my shop & actually do something. :)

Greg

[Paul B. Cresti]

Personally I hated those ww'g shows...as others have said once you went to one of them you have seen them all. I got the feeling like they were all used car salesman or door to door salesman (from yester year) trying to push their trinkets. Now do not get me wrong I mean no disrespect to the hard work and relentless hours these people put into these shows and the amount of time they are away from home. I just do not get anything out of these shows and refuse to go to them.

Woodworking as a profession in my opinion is dying out. It use to be an art form similiar to plastering, wrought iron workers, etc.... It is now about producing products and a cheaper price and mass quantities. Then again i can also understand the general publics views...when I met potential clients in the past and I informed them what it took to make something custom , they really did not care. What they wanted was pure function and looks for a cheap price. I can no blame them ..why would they want to spend 8-10k for an a/v center when they could get one for 1k and less at some big store and use that extra money for things like vacation, family needs etc....Heck if I did not have a full shop of tools I would never hire someone to do the kind of work I do...I could never afford them.

Woodworking will most likely stay as a hobby though as it is nice to be able to create with your hands and escape a bit from the harsher realities of your day job.

[Jim Becker]

I forgot to mention that in the Philadelphia area, it got harder for show-goers to attend simply because the venue that hosted the shows for years, the former Ft. Washington Convention Center, was renovated into office space, leaving a major gap in non-"in the city" locations for shows over a certain size. Holding these events in the city increases the costs considerably, particularly relative to labor and taxes so most shows like this avoid that. So folks in this area now have to attend the York show or those held in New Jersey, both options which increase the travel time for many.

Oh, and again, it's not just the woodworking shows that have been affected. Ft. Washington hosted a lot of different specialty shows as well as the suburban home show...often two per weekend nearly all year long. That's a big hit for the area!

[Dave McGeehan]

In the mid 1980's I belonged to a woodcarving club based in Quakertown, Pa. At its peak we had 97 active members of every age, walk of life, hobbiests, professional carvers, and furniture makers. We moved our monthly meetings to larger venues twice trying to accommodate the standing room only attendance. I had to quit the club as my job began to demand more of my free time and I had less time for carving. Recently I began to make my living as a both a furniture maker and (mostly) a woodcarver. Last month, I attended a meeting of what is left of that original carving club. There were 8 people in attendance. The youngest was 55 but most were in their 60s and 70s. I'd just be speculating as to the reason young people aren't as interested as they used to be in woodcarving/furniture making but it was obvious at that meeting: it's a dying art in my area.

[Dewayne Reding]

............. There are a lot of younger kids (jr high and high school) that don't even know what a woodshop class is. Wood and metalshop has been replaced by computer classes. We have removed industrial arts from the schools and left a entire class of kids that excell at working with their hands out in the cold. We are raising a generation of kids that cannot change a flat tire or drive a nail. .................

I won't comment of whether or not WW is dying out, but I have lots of first hand knowledge that agree completely with Denny's points. I am a fulltime IL National Guardsman and supervise a truck and artillery maintenance shop. It is a rare day when my young soldiers arrive to the military with any mechanical skills. Often they can't change a tire, have never changed engine oil, or even driven a manual transmission (hence the Army now has automatics for the most part) And I am dealing with the kids that are interested in becoming mechanics. They just have no background. They are however quicker to learn the electrical aspects than I was. When I joined, at least half of us were gearheads. Even the college bounders took as many industrial arts courses the school would allow.

And WW? Without exception they tease me for doing "Old Man" hobbies :eek:. I am 45.

[David Weaver]

It's on the upswing here in western, PA. I would think the difference is that people in generation X and Y don't really want to get stuck going to a WW show for a day, and are less likely to go to one because of that.

I buy my tools by research on the internet, and then by talking to the dealers and vendors, have a full shop of higher-end hobbyist and hand tools, and have never been to a WW show.

More people are buying tools from Amazon and Grizzly, I would think, too.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Shows run through cycles, just like everything else. The Woodworking Shows has new owners, and some of the big vendors are not participating, at least in the shows so far this year. Woodworks and Consumer Woodworking Expo are smaller shows with fewer stops on their circuits. The economy, especially in home and house related markets, stinks right now. I predict you will see a resurgence in woodworking shows when the cycle turns back up in a few years.

[Darren Ford]

I'm not sure WW has ever been a hobby for young adults. When we were kids we built tree houses, but after that didn't our lives revolve around cars and girls?

I don't think a lack of youngsters involved really means anything, nor does attendance at meetings or events. Look at tech shows and computer clubs, the former is gasping for breath, and the latter is gone and all but forgotten, but more people are using high-tech products than ever.

[Jesse Cloud]

Interesting question! Lots of good observations.

What came to my mind was the similarity to my other hobby, cooking. About 15 years ago, high-end hobby cooking became the rage. Cooking utensil stores opened everywhere, we all rushed out to buy professional quality knives and food processors and other gadgets. After a few years, there wasn't much innovation and everybody pretty much had what they needed (and a lot of stuff they didn't need) A lot of the stores closed down.

I think that something similar is happening in woodworking. The big boom has past. A lot of us pretty much have what we need and frankly there's not much innovation in the marketplace. With the race to lower prices, chances are the tools offered next year won't be as good as the ones you already have, so what's the point?

Similar thing with woodworking education. Most classes aren't worth much. I takes a real program with good funding to produce skilled woodworkers. At the local Santa Fe community college they have a full scale program with high standards and they are running classes six days a week and most nights and still can't keep up with the demand.

[Don Bullock]

Jim, I could not agree with you more. There are a lot of younger kids (jr high and high school) that don't even know what a woodshop class is. Wood and metalshop has been replaced by computer classes. We have removed industrial arts from the schools and left a entire class of kids that excell at working with their hands out in the cold. We are raising a generation of kids that cannot change a flat tire or drive a nail. My son is in the 8th grade and the only machines they have in their "tech ed" class is a drill press (bench style) and a small bandsaw. Most of the jr high and high schools in this area sold all of their heavy equipment in an auction about 10 yrs ago.

Denny, the problem with the schools isn't as simple as that. Not to get into a big political debate, but the shop classes weren't removed and replaced by computers. The shop classes were phased out in schools because the politicians "grade" schools based solely on the academic programs. In most states high schools are rated by the percentage of the graduates that go on to college. In the past there were two different programs in high schools, academic and "trade school." In most places the trac for "trade school" has vanished. Tere are some excellent exceptions to this trend, but very few and far between. This new stress solely on academics has been one of the biggest factors in many of the problems we have with the youth of today. Not all of our kids are "college material" but to graduate from high school today they have to "prove" that they are. There are no other programs left for them. We force them into academic programs with a "promise" that they will make a lot of money because they graduate from college. Then we wonder why so many "drop out" and those who "make it" demand high paying jobs.

[Rod Sheridan]

My wife often laughs that all the clubs I belong to are populated by white, grey haired men in plaid shirts. (Woodturning and several motorcycle clubs).

Both of my daughters are no longer in high school, however the shop classes are being phased out due to expense and liability concerns. Since I live in the largest city in Canada, many of the students live in apartments or condominiums, and don't have a shop at home.

My children grew up with the only motorcycling parents in their school, (we both ride), and one of the few households with a wood shop.

When one of the local high schools closed their shop, we bought a wood lathe from them.

The lack of young people at shows or in clubs, isn't something I'm concerned about, since I didn't belong to any clubs, or attend shows untill I was in my late twenties even though I was woodworking as a hobby.

My children tell me that clubs and organizations are something people my age belong to, not their age. If they are correct, they'll join us in a decade or two when they are grey haired.

The wood shows in my area, generally do not have any advanced seminars that cost less than $50, and the free seminars contain discussions as to what a jointer does. Useful for some people, not for us.

The seminar contents, and the carnival atmosphere keep me away unless I am shopping for something large. At the last show I was able to speak to MiniMax and Felder people about a machine purchase I am considering, so that was useful.

I wouldn't bother going to a show to look for a drill, router or other hand held tool, as I just tend to stick with the reccomendation of a trusted supplier I have dealt with for decades.

regards, Rod.

[Matt Meiser]

I won't be attending this year as I've found the shows to be the same year after year, and based on the early reports, this years are only different int he fact that there is even less. It seems like the pro shows -- IWF and AWFS are broadening their audiences and taking over the high end of the show market to me.

If I could, I'd go down to Columbus, OH the weekend of the show there--not to attend The Woodworking Show but to attend the in-store show at Woodwerks which was really nice, and FREE! Plus we would have an opportunity to visit my brother and his wife. Unfortunately I have another committment that weekend.

Attendance seems to be down at our local club. For one a number of people have moved out of the area to move to places that had better job opportunities. A few others have left the hobby for financial reasons. Still others of us would like to attend more meetings but our schedules just have been too busy. There are a lot of young guys in our club (I'll call young less than about 40) and in a recent thread a number of people were lamenting how little time they have for the hobby as we've had kids and they've started getting older and consuming more of our free time--not that its a bad thing, but a change from what we were used to. We also seem to be stuggling coming up with fresh topics that appeal to a broad audience--and volunteers to present them.

Another thing affecting hobbies in general is the economy. As people spend more of their income on energy and in many cases increased mortgage payments, there is less money for hobbies.

[Brian Kent]

Someone asks the question "Is Woodworking Dying out? at 7PM. 12 hours later there are 36 repies that almost 896 people have read (more by the time you read this).:rolleyes:

I don't see that as a sign that woodworking is dying!:D

[Richard Wagner]

The answer MAY be yes but the real question is WHY?

I have been interested in woodworking since before highschool. My love of woodworking was really kindled during four years of highschool wood working classes. Very few of those classes are being conducted today and have not been for several (maybe many) years.

If the younger generation is not exposed, they will for the most part not be interested in later years. I believe we have been witnessing this decline for a couple generations.

The decline has now resulted in fewer people going to craft schools, fewer people practising the trade, fewer vendors supporting the craft shows, thus fewer people going to craft shows....and the circle goes on. They were all served up on a huge handcrafted maple or oak dining room suite.

Don't blame it on the vendors....if there was money to be made there the vendors would be there by the numbers.

If you blame the vendors, I'd bet you blame the farmers for the high cost of food. When you could buy all your groceries at the corner market...prices weren't near as high.

If you don't buy this arguement....maybe we can blame China. If they didn't market all that low cost stuff we'd have to buy handcrafted furniture.:(

Yes, the Woodworking Craft is dying out. So is the Home Sewing Craft and the Cooking Craft. Wouldn't you just love to have one of great grandma's Thanksgiving feasts this year.:( OOPs...I don't know how old you are. You may not even have memories of those great feasts that grandma used to cook.

[Dewayne Reding]

Someone asks the question "Is Woodworking Dying out? at 7PM. 12 hours later there are 36 repies that almost 896 people have read (more by the time you read this).:rolleyes:

I don't see that as a sign that woodworking is dying!:D

So what you're really saying here Brian is that 860 of them were too apathetic to respond? Interest is waning I tell ya. :)

[Heather Thompson]

This has been an interesting thread to follow, in particular I have enjoyed the discussion about young people in woodworking and shop classes. I am the child of two parents raised on farms in Wisconsin, they obviously grew up with the hands on approach. When I was little you would find me in the basement with my dad working on woodworking projects, electrical repairs(TV's and radios used to have tubes), or in the garage changing oil on the car etc. I like to read WoodWork magazine and the Aug 2004 issue had an article about "Educational Sloyd" written by Doug Stowe. The article starts with a quote by Jean Jacques Rousseau- "Put a young man/woman in a woodshop, his hands work to the advantage of his brain and he becomes a philosopher while thinking himself only a craftsman". In the Aug 2005 issue he also did a second article on the same topic. I think it is a shame that our educational system is moving in the direction it is. My husbands family are mostly teachers, working with students from grade school, university PHD programs and in the Wisconsin prison system, none of them had ever heard of Sloyd till I brought it up, very sad. It is worth getting copies of these issues and giving them a read.

Heather

[Doug Shepard]

I think it's just Woodworking Shows are dying out, and not Woodworking itself. I went every year for about 6-7 years but haven't been to one in about 5 years now. First there's the spiraling issue of declining attendance = declining vendor participation = declining attendance = .... so the shows have been getting smaller and less good reasons to go. Then there's the looking-for-a-show-discount allure where you frequently find that you can buy something cheaper online, plus not incur state sales tax. If the online shipping wasn't free, it often was a wash with the show ticket cost. As I started to accumulate more tools there was also fewer things I needed (or less room to put things) so less reason to go, plus often the sellers of things I did want to buy wouldn't be attending my local show anyway.
I never took any of the paid workshop classes offered at the shows but did enjoy seeing some of the free stuff presented in the main hall.
I think the internet has gotten a lot more sophisticated since the shows started too. Initially I think the shows were often one of the best ways to see new tools demo'ed and ask questions. Nowadays vendors often have pretty good product demo videos online. You're not able to ask questions live, but competing with a bunch of other show attendees often made that difficult there anyway. And if you were at the back of the pack, the demo was probably less visible than watching an online video.
Not ruling out going again, but it's not automatic. It depends on the vendors that will be attending, whether I'm possibly interested in buying something, whether I've got some spare time to kill, etc.

[John Thompson]

I think it is dying.... I got interested in HS shop class which is for the most part non-existent anymore. And I like to use my hands to create or repair. Which one of the HS kids would take it anyway as that would take away from the time they have a cell phone stuck in their ear or playing video games.

Maybe the same ones that were taught by their dad to hook up a set of battery cables when the battery was dead on the car in lieu of getting on their cell phone with the pre-programmed number for someone that can do it for them.

The world has changed.. the general population is addicted to high tech in general. Why would a young person want to invest in WW tools when they can get the cheap mass produced furniture and save the money for more high tech electronic gear. They are going to change furniture every few years to keep pace with the latest fad anyway.

And there 5000 sq. ft. home sits on 1/2 acre so close the home next door that you can reach out your dining room window and grab the salt and pepper off the dining table next door. Where would they put the shop as the garage must protect their high dollar foreign auto purchase which represents the status quo to their peers? Then deal with the association covenant that doesn't allow any noisy machinery to protect property value.

WW is dying whether you want to admit it or not. The many that post on WW forums are a mere drop in the bucket when compared to the millions of potential young WW that have no interest and probably for the most part will not develope any interest.

What would be the motive for getting involved? Just get on the inter-net.. make the furniture purchase.. give them a credit card and get back to the cell phone to take care of all the serious business that is usually discussed all day long. You know... real serious stuff like getting a call and answering.. "Whomever residence""... pause.... "Hi honey, I'm pulling in the driveway now and should be inside the house in just a moment".

Indeed.. the world has changed, IMO. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

Sarge..

[Don Hein]

Heather, Thank you for your post. I was especially intrigued by the Rousseau quote. That led via google to Doug Stowe's blog, a very interesting site, which I've suggested to a number of my next-generation family members involved in various aspects of education.

[Dennis Hatchett]

I went to the Woodworking Show this weekend in San Mateo Ca. It was a ghost town... What is up with this? Have you seen the same in your area?

The Portland, Oregon show last month was a complete waste of time and gas much to my disappointment. I live four hours away so I only get to a show every few years or so. But since I made some decent commission cash this summer I thought I'd finally invest in a couple of tool upgrades that I've wanted for a decade or more. I could have made the purchases in August but I remembered the good deals many dealers made at the end of the show a few years ago and thought I'd save some cash.

I thought "hey, the show is in Portland so it'll be worth the wait to save money and I'll have a good time seeing what's new out there." Besides the festool booth almost nothing new was at the show that wasn't there a few years ago(nothing that I recall being interested in anyway). And the real surprise was there was about half of what I expected. I did pick up a decent deal on an oscillating edge sander but that was it. Dealers weren't dealing and the money I saved didn't even cover the gas money, not to mention the waste of an entire Sunday. Needless to say, I won't be going back any time soon. Nor will most of the woodworkers I talked to at the "show" or "No-show" as it were.

[Brian Gumpper]

I always thought those shows should be more factory represented. While it may be too costly for each manufacturer to do the roadtrip, I'm sure they can work deals with local dealers to bring their floor stock down there or make deals to bring in new machines at demo pricing.

It's great to pick up a pack of acid brushes or watch some demos, but I like to see what I don't have access to and that's a large variety of equipment to look at. And whoever brings the machines can certainly sell a bunch of them at demo prices.

Problem wih shows is people know Peachtree are going to be the largest display and that's not what I go for (nothing against Peachtree, just not what I'm looking for at a show).

With that said, I go anyway because it's all there is locally.

[Heather Thompson]

Heather, Thank you for your post. I was especially intrigued by the Rousseau quote. That led via google to Doug Stowe's blog, a very interesting site, which I've suggested to a number of my next-generation family members involved in various aspects of education.

Don,

I sent you a private e-mail, but I thought it may be worth posting this and including a link to Doug Stowe's blog so others may view as well. If Educational Sloyd were brought back into our schools, attendance at woodworking shows would be a non-issue, and I believe many other issues that plague our society would be relieved also. :) http://wisdomofhands.blogspot.com/

Heather

[Heather Thompson]

Heather, Thank you for your post. I was especially intrigued by the Rousseau quote. That led via google to Doug Stowe's blog, a very interesting site, which I've suggested to a number of my next-generation family members involved in various aspects of education.


Don,

I sent you a private e-mail, but thought it may be a good idea to post this message so others may be able to view Doug's blog as well. Unfortunately my last post never appeared, so I will try this again for the benefit of others that may find it interesting. Doug's blog is called "wisdomofhands.", then it is blogspot.com If I have just violated a SMC rule, I do apologize, this is just appropriate information to be shared by the group. I believe that if Sloyd were to be reintroduced into our schools, attendance at woodworking shows would be a non-issue, and many other issues that plague our society would be resolved as well.

Heather

[John Viola]

Jium, I remember the old American Woodworker shows at the Ft. Washington Center. Those were good shows. I miss them-none I've been to sicne can compare.

[Steve Clardy]

I've attended the KC show about 16 years in a row now.
Been to the St. Louis show twice.
Lasts years KC show was disappointing.
Half the vendors that are normally there.
TWC pulled out as a vendor. Heck, they were half of it I guess. A huge vendor.
Attendance was down. Less selections.

I'll still go though. A day off, and we usually have a breakfast meet somewhere before the show.

[Brian Kent]

Does anybody have industry stats on tool sales?

Dewayne - great comeback!

Comment on educational stuff: Subjects like math and physics, reading and writing, chemistry and sociology… all get grounded and used in the so-called extras, like industrial arts, music, fine arts, and sports. We need it all.

[Don C Peterson]

Denny, the problem with the schools isn't as simple as that. Not to get into a big political debate, but the shop classes weren't removed and replaced by computers. The shop classes were phased out in schools because the politicians "grade" schools based solely on the academic programs. In most states high schools are rated by the percentage of the graduates that go on to college. In the past there were two different programs in high schools, academic and "trade school." In most places the trac for "trade school" has vanished. Tere are some excellent exceptions to this trend, but very few and far between. This new stress solely on academics has been one of the biggest factors in many of the problems we have with the youth of today. Not all of our kids are "college material" but to graduate from high school today they have to "prove" that they are. There are no other programs left for them. We force them into academic programs with a "promise" that they will make a lot of money because they graduate from college. Then we wonder why so many "drop out" and those who "make it" demand high paying jobs.

Agreed.

But unlike government schools, our school will always have a woodshop available to our students because we homeschool our kids! We don't care what absurd measuring sticks idiot politicians use to judge how miserably their schools (not the schools they send their kids to, mind you) are failing.

So far my kids are a bit young but our 8 year old son, our 8 year old daughter and 5 year old son have all expressed a desire to learn woodworking. Our 1 year old daughter hasn't expressed an interest yet, but I'll give her a few more years before I give up hope...

[Jim Kenney]

Since I live in San Mateo here is my personal story for what its worth. I first attended the WW show in San Mateo about 4 years ago, when I was just starting out in woodworking. That time the show had a great buzz, the halls were crowded and everything was new to me. After missing a couple of shows I attended the show last year in both San Mateo and Pleasanton CA in November 2006 and April 2007, respectively.

Much to my disappointment, the San Mateo show in 2006 was much smaller than I had remembered and the Pleasanton show smaller still. The main reason I liked the first show was that I saw a number of smaller vendors selling products I might not find through the traditional channels. In the more recent shows these vendors seemed to have dropped out. I discussed this with one of the vendors and he told me that the smaller guys just cannot get enough sales via the shows to justify the expense. After having seen the recent shows, I skipped the San Mateo show this year because I figured I was not likely to see anything particularly new, not due to any lack of interest in woodworking.

Personally, I think the internet has made these shows much less relevant than they might have been in the past. So much of the information that one might have found at these shows is now available over the internet. I agree that nothing can beat a real hands on demonstration of a tool's capabilities, but I have also learned the hard way (as I am sure that many of you have as well) that your results at home often vary significantly from what you see at the show!:eek:

[Will Blick]

Some great posts.... as with any subject like this, there is never one answer...

On the PRO end of the ww business, I too think we will see a decline...mainly because of import cabinets. Now, only installers are needed, not the staff to make the cabinets. The quality of these imports are good enough for most homeowners. Builders who succeed are those that offer quality homes that are as affordable as possible...and custom made anything drives up the prices. Since the ratio of avg. price homes to high-end homes is better than 20:1 (just a guess here), this represents a lot of downsizing. Of course, commercial work will remain consistent i suspect.

On the furniture end....well, one walk into a furniture store today, and its truly remarkable how nice these imports are, AND, how ridiculously low the prices are. This has really hurt the USA furniture makers. And custom furniture makers are really classified as "overpriced" today.... not in relationship to their costs, but rather in relationship to what the marketplace expects.

Sometimes I add up the cost of a project I build, and when its all said and done, it cost me 2x what a similar piece would cost in a furniture store...and this does not include my labor. High quality wood purchased in low volume is VERY expensive vs. what the big importers pay. Of course, we all don't build to save money.

On the hobby end.... I think ww will suffer the same pains as Astronomy is suffering. As the older ww's move out, they are not being replaced by younger ww's. The reasons I think are obvious, high technology is what interest the bulk of the younger generations....and as mentioned, space considerations, huge amount of time, costly tools, cost of materials, etc. etc.

Economy - All hobbies suffer in a floundering economy. If we enter a reccession, we can expect to see an even bigger loss of hobbiest. On the flip side, I think the fruitful economy of the past 20 years has really added many hobbiest....but this may not continue.

As for the trade shows, and ww stores. I agree with many of the posters above. The cost of these shows are outrageous. And with the internet being such a great marketing tool, many buyers prefer to sit at their desk, and watch product demos, glossy pdf's, testimonials, user forums, etc. I think this applies to many industries, not just ww.

It would be interesting to see industry wide sales in tools...this is always a good indicator of market direction.

[Mark Stutz]

This has been a great read...had intended to get into the shop tonight, but..OH, Well. Can't add much in the way of philosoghical musings, but I agree with the problems we all seem to have with the shows. I'll still go, especially if I can attend a seminar that interests me, but more just to have breakfast with Steve Clardy. We usually have several guys get together from a variety of forums, swap tall tales, and usually have a little show and tell. I'll also go to look at the new Lee Valley plane offerings, since I rarely buy something without holding it in my hand at least.

Mark

[Ray Klear]

SO as WW declines ,if it does, Will it take the Antique Stores with it??. Where are the Antiques of tomorrow going to come from. Or will they be Commodore 64's and Apples

[Don Bullock]

Ray,
I don't know about your area, but the Internet, mainly eBay, has caused many of our antique shops to fold. Even when I'm in one I hear people talking about eBay.:eek:

[Marcus Ward]

Add the fact wood prices are climbing and the learning curve can be quite long, I think the young ones are finding other hobbies.

You're seeing a generation of kids who can 'beat the game' in a week or two. Things that take a lot of effort like learning an instrument or woodworking are too hard for them. They can master a particular game in days. Compared to the time it takes to learn any real skill... they have unrealistic expectations from their video games so stuff that takes a while to learn is just too hard. Lame, I know, but ... this is what letting video games babysit your kids gets you - and we have an entire generation like this now. Just my retrogrouch 2 cents.

[Don Hein]

I already put in 2 cents on status of the WW hobby; now for comments about WW shows and other "expos" in general: home, RV, boats, remodeling, etc. The venues available and booked for these events are much bigger and grander than years ago. They're often in sports stadiums and arenas, convention centers, civic centers, and so on, which are bonded out 'til the end of time on the backs of tourists, convention-goers, and sports fans, creating intense pressure to generate revenue. I'm guessing this situation is a major factor in pushing admission prices to high levels. I think I recall going to the Boat Show out on Swan Island in Portland in the '50s, and admission was either free or possibly $1, kids free.

Do significantly lower "show prices" really exist, given the cost of selling at a show must be somewhat higher than through usual channels?

Earlier comments about the popularity of internet shopping are spot-on.

Wonder if car dealers will soon supplement Car Show admission revenue with a Test Drive fee....

[Alfred Clem]

"Woodworking" needs to be defined if we are to say whether it is dying out of not. There was woodworking long before there were woodworking shows, so let's leave that aspect of the craft aside.

I think of woodworking in three parts: as a hobby, as a business, and as an art. I suspect it is dying out as a business, priced toward extinction by cheaper, industrial objects of immediate utility. There will always be demand for objects of beauty, utility, and unique character.

As a hobby, woodworking has great and growing potential. This is particularly true as baby boomers move toward retirement and seek something useful and interesting to occupy their time. The price of tools reflects this demand by hobbyists -- cheap stuff for beginners, more expensive stuff for those who have graduated to higher skills levels. And we must face the fact that the American dollar (or, rather, the American peso) simply does not buy as much as it once did, whether the tools are made here or overseas.

As an art form, woodworking will always be with us. Art seeks its own level -- I suspect there are more sculptors today than there were during Michelangelo's time. Society has grown and can afford their expressions.

Just a final comment on woodworking shows. In my experience, they have a carnival air about them. The exhibitors repeat the same stuff, year after year. They grow louder and louder, offer less and less. I have about quit going to them as a result.













I went to the Woodworking Show this weekend in San Mateo Ca. It was a ghost town (as compared to previous years). About 1/2 the vendors as well as customers, I was shocked. I got there at show open this morning and there were about 20 fans waiting for the doors to open. I remember there was always a long lines. I talked with some of the vendors about it and they said it was snowballing. With the decrease in attendance (sales), the vendors are pulling out, which leads to even lower attendance. I also spoke with my friends at The Woodworker Academy booth which is a great WW school in the area. Their attendance now is way down. He also mentioned attendance levels at other schools are down, like College of the Redwoods which was waiting room only now has openings. He heard our local Woodcraft store stopped their classes due to lack of interest. Marc Adams school is even lower in attendance. What is up with this? Have you seen the same in your area?

[Dusty Fuller]

It could all boil down to money. The general citizenry doesn't want to pay high taxes, often wanting to pay none at all. These shop classes that are so lamented are paid for by local taxes. The average Joe or Jane also doesn't want to pay hand-made price for a hand-made item either. We generally want stuff unless we can get a discount. So manufacturers and retailers "trim the fat". When school systems "trim the fat", its the things that can be found outside of the school environment that go first. That means shop class, recreation, some musical activites, theater (occasionally), and the like. I think there is a perception that if a student wants shop classes, the student can get that sort of job or that trhe parents will take care of it using the money that they didn't pay because of Tax Cut XY. Not going to happen... that money is going to something else. Honestly, I don't mind a reasonable level of taxation as long as they're going to something useful, but its up to each governing body and their tax base to determine what is useful. The system that my wife teaches in has all of their trades classes at a central location, which I think is a good idea - reduces the amount of equipment purchased and also makes things easier to track. We get what we pay for when we keep an eye on who is doing the selling, whether it be tool money or taxes. The funny thing is that the above mentioned classes are the only ones that bring in additional revenue to a school system! Just give them a good start, and they may be able to fund themselves through selling furniture or milling lumber and selling tickets to shows and sporting events.

[Kirk Poore]

The St Louis WW show was way down last year. But I don't go to buy much. Our local WW group (Edwardsville IL) has had a booth there for the last few years to show off our stuff. It gets us in free, we get to stroke our egos by showing off :), and we recruit new people.

As a consequence, the local group is doing quite well in attendance. And we're trying to up our activity level by having a quarterly demonstration and shop visiting day in addition to our monthly meetings. So far this year we've had three demos--machine created M&T joints plus pouring babbitt bearings, spray finish and french polishing, sharpening hand tools, and we have an upcoming demo on dust collection.

I can't see how a show can do that well on classes. I've taught small, hands-on classes in hand-cut M&T and dovetail joints, and they take 2-4 hours to give. I just can't see how a show can put on a hands-on class given the time & materials requirements, and I don't see much benefit in any other type of WW class--I might as well rent or buy a video.

Kirk

[Brad Evans]

Again, getting back to that particular San Mateo WW show, HERE are the details:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...cf5758437075ee

I read that write-up Saturday morning and decided not to go. Even those shows attended in previous years were pretty boring.


Brad
Urban pix: http://www.citysnaps.net

[Ralph Lindberg]

I went to the WW show in Seattle a couple of weeks ago. The show had about half the normal vendors and was sparsely attended. Also, the publicity was poor......

Fred, that was not the "usual" WW show (ie the one that has been in Puyallup the last few years)

What you went to was the Consumer Wood Working Expo (http://www.consumerwoodworkingexpo.com/) as opposed to the Wood Working Show (http://www.thewoodworkingshows.com/)

As best as I can figure there are three companies running shows.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Denny,

I took an evening class at a local public high school not long ago. The instructor told me that the county won't let them buy, fix or replace tools any more, as they intend to kill off shop class. That's pretty depressing, and my initial reaction was the same as yours....

Talk to your local school district.
The HS I went to, currently offers the following:
INTRODUCTION TO INDUSTRIAL TECHNOLOGY 1-2 Power Technology 1 Consumer Mechanics 1 Automotive Tech 3-4
Auotmotive Body Repair 5-6 Drafting 1-2 Architectual Drafting 3-4 Mechanical Drafting 3-4 DC Electronics 1 Residential Electrical 2 Welding 1-2
Woodworking 1-2
Applied Electronics 2
Metals and Manufacturing 3-4
Pre-Construction 1

Construction Tech 3-4 (where they build a Habitat for Humanity House)They also offer 1 year of Physics, two of computer networking, math (from basic to calculus), 3 years of Biology, 2 years of chemistry, Geology, Forensic Science (no I'm not kidding), 5 years of French and Spanish, 4 years of German (how, I dono).

But that school district has always spent real money on education. Or how we got a computer class, in the late 60's!!!

[Gary Keedwell]

[quote=Dusty Fuller;693168]It could all boil down to money. The general citizenry doesn't want to pay high taxes, often wanting to pay none at all. These shop classes that are so lamented are paid for by local taxes.

The trouble with opening that can of worms called taxes is that the money never goes to where they say it will go when they raise them.:mad:

Gary

[Bill Wyko]

Sorry I'm so late chiming in here. I think transportation costs for heavy tools to an event is cost prohibitive as well. I just spoke to a friend thata a truck driver and he told me it cost him 600 bucks to fill his tank and he wasn't even on empty. The events typically don't let you move product durring a show so as a vendor you can't even let someone take their purchase with them. That can reduce your chance of selling your product.

Has anyone contacted any of the big tool companies and asked them why they aren't showing up?

[Alfred Clem]

Some school systems have discontinued shop courses (woodworking, foundry, mechanical drawing, architectural drawing, auto mechanics, electric/machine shop) because they cannot justify paying the high premiums demanded by insurors. Other school systems find good shop course instructors hard to find. Many such instructors can make a lot more money going into business for themselves. Trade unions have not stepped up to help fill the gap. My mind goes back to a vanished era -- the early 1940s -- when I took such courses in a white-collar suburban high school in the Chicago area. I regret to see the end of such opportunities for practical hands-on learning for young people.

Al Clem
Sedona, AZ

[Gary Keedwell]

I know this is a little off-topic but maybe the crack-down on letting these young people buy a house with NOTHING down and then crying when they can't afford it, will be good for woodworking. Let me explain. Alot of people, me included, didn't have the money for a down payment on a new house but we had enough to put down real money on a fixer-upper.
It didn't take me long to realize that I could save a ton of money and get alot done if I did stuff myself. In the process of learning and buying tools, I naturally drifted to the woodworking aspect of home remodeling. It starts with basic carpentry and before you know it, I had a nice fancy fireplace surround that was better then you can buy at retail.
I have read a ton of posts where the writer said his interest in woodworking came from home-improvement. If the real estate situation gets alot worse like some predict, maybe there will be more people buying the fixer-uppers and creating woodworkers at the same time.;)
Gary

[Dusty Fuller]

"The trouble with opening that can of worms called taxes is that the money never goes to where they say it will go when they raise them."

That is the unfortunate truth, for the most part. That's what I meant by keeping an eye on the "seller". I think that all of us could afford to ask as many questions of and get as involved with our local governments as we do with our tools and their providers (I include myself as "us"). Too many times I find myself complaining about another SPLOST, until I get to know some of the school-age kids who will be attending that new school and won't be attending class in a ratty mobile unit. But us voters can form organizations, and I don't mean "watchdog" organizations, to help in the implementation of whatever that money was meant for. Many of the watchdog groups only offer criticism and never offer to assist in the project development. They only fuss when the project isn't done right (rarely considering the fact that said project was performed by the lowest bidder... we all know that you get what you pay for). I think the group would better serve the area by pooling their knowledge and offering to review the project plans and bids.

I'm not even going to try to speak on federal taxes... wrong forum and just a general pain to track. Ick.

Just my thoughts...

[Dave Anderson NH]

Whether woodworking is growing or shrinking, and show attendence are entirely different topics and the only thing they share in common is that they are related to woodworking.

Show attendence in most areas is down as the shows shrink in size with fewer vendors. The internet, including this website has a lot to do with this trend. A wide variety of biased and unbiased opinions can be gathered in a short time on the net and the prices are often lower than your local woodworkig store or a show. Shows themselves are very expensive undertakings for vendors and the booth cost is often the least expensive part. Hauling stock, paying for employee overtime and extra staffing along with the costs of food and lodging for staff are major expenses. Add together all of the costs and balance it against the actual numbers of major expensive pieces of gear sold and it's not unlikely that most vendors lose money.

Now woodworking as a hobby is a different proposition, at least in my area. The hobby is extremely healthy and growing in NH. Our guild started 17 years ago with a dozen members and grew slowly for about 10 years until it reached about 150-175 members. In the last 5 years growth has been explosive and we are now 537 members strong. We have an average of about 30 events per year including meetings, symposia, trips, and member shop tours.

[Jude Tuliszewski]

“Re the demand for quality, I wonder how much the penchant for "redecorating" by throwing out the old and buying new every few years affects the demand for well built goods. Who cares if the screws pull out of the particle board doors in 5 years. I'm gonna pitch 'em in 3 years and buy different shaped/colored particle board wonders.”


Unfortunately the younger generations have been taught by expert marketing and by lack of parenting that they have to be trendy and keep up with the fad of the day. Just think about blue jeans. Kids want jeans that look like they have been worn for years but are brand new off the shelf, and parents are paying for them. Unfortunately we have become a throw away society. We used to buy things that would last but not in today’s world, which to me is contrary too today’s environmental concerns. Not to mention what has been said about kids and tech devices, as well as being taught that they must have it quick, fast, and in a hurry.
I did a closet install a couple weeks ago that was bought online and was all in flat boxes, and all I did was put it together. Melamine practical board. I made sure to inform the people that I take no responsibility for the longevity of the stuff. For some reason they where convinced that it was the better material to use no matter what I said to them, and they did not want to wait the extra time for me to make the closet pieces. Yes you can get furniture for less than you can make it but I have looked pretty close at a lot of items because I started thinking the same thing, why make it when I can buy it for less then I can make it. It was the quality of materials. It may look nice in the beginning but will not hold up for many years of use.
That is great for the manufacturer so they can sell more junk every 4 or 5 years, and it is sad to say that as a whole society is being conditioned that that kind of practice is OK
We would not have the antiques that we have to day if the materials used in modern manufacturing today, had been used all those years ago, Just My Humble Opinion.

[Greg Cole]

Gary hit me on the head, I mean hit the nail on the head with the home remodelling leading to finer ww'ing. Being young, able & having some spending $ I refuse to pay for what I think I can do or want to try. Buy the materials, tools and get to learning, maybe the hard way but the best way for me. Dear old Dad taught me alot, but nothing about anything 'round the house other than raking leaves & mowing grass. I did take woodshop class in umm... like 5th grade. I remember making a cutting board & lamp but had little interest in doing anything but bugging the easily bugged shop teacher.
There is nothing I can trace my being a WW'er to other than buying a house. And yes $0.00 down (had to pay off a truck loan and use a pile o cash to buy appliances & closing costs when I bought the house, so zero down was what us in the house). So, zero down was still about $9K out of the checkbook?
After repainting a few rooms, stripping wall paper etc and doing the initial redecorating that makes a house my home not just a house.... I decided not to stop there. We needed (ok wanted) to update the old oak ply cabinet faces. Ok, borrow a TS and buy a router (never used one at the time, but thought I'd need it). I made all the kitchen cab faces & drawer fronts with a TS, hand held router and a ROS.
House was just about totally remodelled inside & out (still have some flooring to go but anyway..) & I thought what to do with myself now. Make a piece of furniture maybe? Big box chip board CRAP, I'll pass. IKEA, nope. Ethan Allen style stuff, would take numerous years to appoint the home with..... so dive in a little deeper.
I don't know if any of my friends my age can install trim..... never mind make fluted door casings for a whole house, for one example.

I will say I am far from the norm for my generation. I CHOSE to spend my time doing things I can easily pay someone else to do (deck building, siding, roofing to finer WW'ing). I truly value what the 2 things on the ends of my arms can do in conjunction with the gray matter 'tween the ears. I can only hope my 6 year old boy keeps some of what he's picked up from me & keeps it with him as he matures.
I'll do my best to keep one young more WW'er in the "Creek" of this hobby.

Greg

[Gary Curtis]

some general observations.

a) young people entering WW. I belong to two woodworking clubs. Both in Northern and Southern California. The demographics in the south are age 55+. In the North, we had two high schoolers join only last month. In part I think because Trinity and Shasta counties are heavy timbering regions. WW is taught in the schools. So, locality might govern growth and decline.

b) since I started going to shows in 2004, the content of the shows and the attendance has declined. Don't take this comment too seriously because I've only been to 4 shows.

c) Insider opinion. I took a class from a former editor of FWW magazine. Since I'm a retired writer/editor/journalist we chatted about WW magazines. I told him I was impressed by the 'curriculum-format' instructions found in several British WW magazines. He agreed. Then, he surprised me saying that WW is going away. As proof, he said magazine subscriptions are down. Young people aren't interested. However, that might be a reflection of the repetitive content or the fact that other media are more attractive.

In sum, I don't have an opinion. Lots of hobbyists like me want better quality, and are willing to pay for it. But lots of commercial craftsman are having a tough go. The times they are a-changing.

Gary Curtis

[Dan Barr]

I'm not religious, but i think AMEN captures the intent here.

We wont see any antiques from out generations "furniture", if you are kind enough to call it that. IKEA, particle board and all that "dunno" wood and brazilian and mexican generic "hardwood" CRAP will not be in any antique stores anytime soon. much less will it last long enough to make it to an antique store. it might make it to a "vintage" store or a "retro" store, whatever the &^%$ those are anyway!

I figure in about thirty to fifty years, when there are no "new" antiques, woodworking and the pieces built by the seemingly "few" of us will suddenly be worth a goldmine. our kids might suddenly be happier because ol' pappy or mammy built that bed or that desk.

what did you say; hand built, by an american. NO, it can not be.

im probably a little too cynical for this post right now. i currently despise the "american" throw away habits, attitude and lifestyle. i am really disgusted by it. i am but one member of this society, but i'll not conform to stupidity!!!

I know i'm going to teach my children the craft of woodworking.

v/r

dan

[Jason White]

My guess is that people, like me, are attending fewer shows because you can see and purchase just about anything woodworking-related via the internet.

JW


The shows are struggling and have been for years. And it's not a "woodworking show" problem, either...many specialty shows have been hit with reduced traffic and the subsequent loss of vendors, etc.

Woodworking, however, is doing quite well as far as I can see. But the demographics are interesting...I think we had a thread about that awhile back. The reduction in "extra" programs in schools is making less younger folks get exposure. On the other hand, many folks like myself, aged 35-55 or so, who work in high-pressure industries and technology have discovered woodworking as a "mental health activity"...let's hope it works...hee hee

[Bill Wyko]

I'm feelin ya. The LOML likes that poor excuse for "Rustic furniture" I call it a soso use for firewood. Sloppy joints and nail holes everywhere. Made SOTB. Junk if you ask me. I'm gradually getting rid of that stuff for the stuff I make though.:D

[Greg Cole]

If WW'ing is dying out... look on the bright if you're young like me and a WW'er.... There should be lotsa "estate sales" and the like in the next couple of decades with alot of WW'ing eqiup for sale for next to nothing... cause "nobody" will want it! :rolleyes:

Greg

[Don C Peterson]

All these posts about being a throw away society are right on their face, but I think miss the real point/issue. From the beginning of time most people wanted to make things faster and cheaper. There's nothing new there, just the methods have changed. There have also always been a few who insisted not on faster/cheaper, but rather on making things the best they could. There are still many craftsmen and customers willing to pay that price. It is from the latter group that any decent antiques come. I've seen my share of antique junk.

It all comes down to priorities. Just because most people aren't willing to pay the price for good furniture, doesn't mean that the sky is falling. Do you insist on buying "the best" of everything? Or do you make choices and tradeoffs based on your priorities? I know that I refuse to buy junk furniture or tools, but I'll buy other things for the cheapest price I can get. That people don't happen to share your particular priorities, is not an indictment of "society." The beauty of the market is that we can all have different priorities. Which also happens to illustrate the ugliness of government...but I won't go there...

[Gary Keedwell]

If WW'ing is dying out... look on the bright if you're young like me and a WW'er.... There should be lotsa "estate sales" and the like in the next couple of decades with alot of WW'ing eqiup for sale for next to nothing... cause "nobody" will want it! :rolleyes:

Greg
:D :D Now that's looking on the bright side. LOL My biggest fear is that after I die, my wife will sell my woodworking tools at the price that I told her I paid for them.:eek: :D
Now that I think about it...when the boomers start to kick the bucket there will be alot of stuff up for sale. Think about all the tools made in the last 20 years and the next 15 or so. Alot of tools looking for a good home.
Gary

[Greg Cole]

Gary,
I told my wife if anything happens to me to literally post it all FREE to the Creekers (none of the family or friends would have any interest) on one (ok 2 conditions)... it gets used OFTEN and taken care of like it was someone elses, oh wait it was someone elses (mine!).

I chose not to tell LOML what I pay for anything but then again she doesn't ask. Today she goes home for lunch & sends an e-mail to me when she gets back to work..."Hun, there are 2 boxes leaning against your shop door" and we simply leave it at that.:D :D :D

Greg

[Dan Barr]

All these posts about being a throw away society are right on their face, but I think miss the real point/issue. From the beginning of time most people wanted to make things faster and cheaper. There's nothing new there, just the methods have changed. There have also always been a few who insisted not on faster/cheaper, but rather on making things the best they could. There are still many craftsmen and customers willing to pay that price. It is from the latter group that any decent antiques come. I've seen my share of antique junk.

It all comes down to priorities. Just because most people aren't willing to pay the price for good furniture, doesn't mean that the sky is falling. Do you insist on buying "the best" of everything? Or do you make choices and tradeoffs based on your priorities? I know that I refuse to buy junk furniture or tools, but I'll buy other things for the cheapest price I can get. That people don't happen to share your particular priorities, is not an indictment of "society." The beauty of the market is that we can all have different priorities. Which also happens to illustrate the ugliness of government...but I won't go there...


But,

I wouldnt call it an indictment, just a depressing characterization.

Yes, I make those trade-offs too. But i think i hold a little higher standard, even on a significantly smaller income. How do i do this? By making my own furniture, making that trade-off as few times as possible, and only buying the most well designed product i can afford when i do make that trade off.

I just see so many pieces of particle board, everyday, on the sides of the streets. all that money...... sigh.

v/r

dan :)

[Don C Peterson]

But,

I wouldnt call it an indictment, just a depressing characterization.

Yes, I make those trade-offs too. But i think i hold a little higher standard, even on a significantly smaller income. How do i do this? By making my own furniture, making that trade-off as few times as possible, and only buying the most well designed product i can afford when i do make that trade off.

I just see so many pieces of particle board, everyday, on the sides of the streets. all that money...... sigh.

v/r

dan :)

I hear ya. I still have a relatively empty house because I would rather have nothing than junk furniture. I can't afford good furniture so we have made due with very little in terms of furniture. It has only been in the last several years that I could afford to buy the tools I need to make my own, but the materials are still expensive...

I just wanted to point out that buying cheap furniture (or its prevalence in the market) is not a sign of a societal malady, regardless of how much I, or anyone else, despise it.

As for woodworking, it's not in any danger of "dying out." In the past decade or so there has been an incredible surge in interest, it's only natural that the trend cannot continue forever. But look at the great toolmakers that have sprung up to meet the demand. Ten years ago you couldn't buy a decent hand saw or plane, the few makers that did exist had such limited distribution that they were unknown to all but the most avid enthusiasts. Now there are probably not too many woodworkers (neander or tailed) who aren't familiar with Lie Nielsen, Veritas, HNT Gordon, Knight Toolworks, Adria, Wentzlof, Bridge City, and Blue Spruce to name just a few. Try to buy vintage hand tools on eBay and tell me interest is dying! Personally, I wish there were a lot less competition for those darn Swan chisels and Disston saws!

Sure the demographic is 50+, but I suspect that will never change. I always WANTED to do woodworking, but I couldn't afford it and didn't have the time. It's the 50+ crowd that has the time and the money to pursue expensive hobbies, and woodworking is certainly one of those!

Teach your kids, grand kids, or neighbors the art, or at least help them to appreciate craftsmanship without becomming a luddite living in fear of change. Learn from those who have been at it longer than you, and share your experiences with others here at SMC; I think the future is bright.

[Rick Gibson]

I told my wife if anything happens to me to literally post it all FREE to the Creekers

Amen Sounds good to me.

[Randall Frey]

One more thing! When I was at the show, I went to the Woodworking Shows booth and and inquired about the lack of attendance. They handed me a letter that explained there are now new owners and they are trying hard to bring the best show possible (bla bla bla). Bottom line the letter asks for help for their marketing department. Like what would make the show better. Who do you want to see at the show? What radio station do you listen to? Which newspaper do you read etc? Email to Ann Strong at astrong@thewoodworkingshows.com

[Tim Marks]

OT....


As a side note (I am in engineering) what I have noticed about the new generation is that they want to walk out of school and make 50k 60k or 70k a year and demand large raises or they will walk. Come-on, greg, that is no different then my generation (maybe yours? I graduated from college with a BS in NE in 1989?) We all wanted to walk into a high paying $29-33k (!!) engineering job.

You can't tell me that inflation is what the fed has said it has been for the last 18 years with the way saleries and house prices have changed (saleries have doubled, and house prices has quadrupled).

Back OT. I have never been a big fan of woodworking or any type of similar show. My parents dragged me to homeshows and county fairs when I was a kid. When I grew up, I started avoiding them like the plague. Of course, revenge is coming... I have a 5yo, so it is about time to start dragging him to places...

Seriously, I would rather search and read in this forum (and that OTHER forum), and see pictures of projects that people have made. Maybe you miss out on someone demonstrating that high $$$ specialty jig, but I have enough problems with impulse buying AFTER researching something carefully without throwing myself somewhere where the gee-whiz feeling will take control.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

You can't tell me that inflation is what the fed has said it has been for the last 18 years with the way saleries and house prices have changed (saleries have doubled, and house prices has quadrupled).
I'm a bit older, but I hear you on that loud and clear!
I make roughly ten times what I made in 1970 when I entered the full time workforce making at the time a bit above min wage.
Just about everything now is ten times the price it was back then.
- My first house was $19K. My present house is worth about $190k.
- Gas was about $.30 a gallon. Today it's about $3.00 a gallon.
- A carton of cigarettes was about $3.00. Same arton today is about $30.00 (or more).
- My first new car was about $2000.00. Last new car was about $20,000.00.
The only real thing that's changed in 37 years has been the portion of my wages taken for taxes. It's a bit depressing to think that in amost 40 years of nose to grindstone, I'm in actually less better off than when i started.

[Bill Lantry]

Actually, we could probably solve this by getting away from anecdotal evidence and speculation, and figuring out some way to find the figures for annual table saw sales nationwide over the last 20 years. Not perfect, but a good start... ;)

Thanks,

Bill

[Gary Keedwell]

Great idea. I would like to see every year so we can chart the ups and downs....you know, like the stock market.

Gary

[jason lambert]

I can only speak for myself. I am 35 years old and live just out side NYC in NJ. My trouble is I can not get wood easily and anything odd like a 4x4 forget it. I am limited to the local chains or some small suppliers that cost a fortune and have very limited selection. Also the quality is usually picked through and allot of time I will walk out with out getting what I need because everything is warped and they will not restock till it is sold out. I can drive a distance to a less desirable area and there are some suppliers but that takes time and my car may not be there when I get out.

Also room for a shop is hard. Taxes are high, I am building a two car garage so I will have one side for some shop room the garage is going to cost 40K and the taxes are going to be about 2k a year. That is a big cost for a hobbie. I am hoping to keep it up I like doing it but it is getting harder and more expensive to do so.


As for out HS they still have a program but not as many kids take it as in the past the academic programs have taken president since woodshop does nothing for the rating of the school on standardize test or help get you into college.

[Jerry Olexa]

IMHO, interest in WW is stable or or probably increasing. The hobby is healthy me thinks. But, the shows, in general, in my opinion do not deliver as they might. They are pretty much predictable and ho hum . Less mfrs exhibit due to less attendance leading to continued less interest. The $ deals are also simply not there. You can usually do better via the internet or even your local WW store. So, why attend the shows? The last 3-4 have disappointed me a lot so I haven't attended in several years. But I continue to buy tools. The shows need to create some interest and excitement or they will eventually die. Just one man's thoughts...

[Bob Genovesi]

I really believe it is so I'm willing to take your finest woodworking tools off your hands for $0.10 on the dollar before it's worth nothing.....http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_19.gif

[Gary Keedwell]

I don't think it is dying out....I just think it wasn't that big to start with.

Gary

[Gary Sostrin]

Remember, the baby boomers are going to start to retire, and some of them will be turning to woodworking, so our numbers will grow. Also I found that the Costa Mesa show was very disappointing. Very few vendors but some deals. I went looking for a jet small/big spindle sander and Western Tool did not bring any, they were loaded up on drum sanders. I agree that the shows must bring something to the table to get people to come, and for me it would be seminars. Also our financial portfolios for most have taken a hit lately due to the market, sliding dollar, and government pig trough spending that will squeeze us and our children and their children. My 1 1/2 cents worth.

[joe Badoe]

In reply tool offer of 10 cents on the dollar , try and sell the equipment and tools from your shop , you will get many offers less than that.

[Gary Keedwell]

Remember, the baby boomers are going to start to retire, and some of them will be turning to woodworking, so our numbers will grow. Also I found that the Costa Mesa show was very disappointing. Very few vendors but some deals. I went looking for a jet small/big spindle sander and Western Tool did not bring any, they were loaded up on drum sanders. I agree that the shows must bring something to the table to get people to come, and for me it would be seminars. Also our financial portfolios for most have taken a hit lately due to the market, sliding dollar, and government pig trough spending that will squeeze us and our children and their children. My 1 1/2 cents worth.
Speaking of babyboomers.....Alot of us have already been woodworking for a long time now. Most of the high price machines are a once only purchase. My cabinet saw is 12 years old and will definetly last until I kick the bucket.
When I first started to go to the shows, seminars and classes were my priority. Had no other source. Today there is DVD videos and videos on-line. I still go today but I have a different motive. LOML travel and lodge and eat at a nice restaurant. The show isn't the only highlight of our visit.We make an OCCASION for ourselves.
Also, Gary, I sympathize with your residence location. Massachusetts is expensive to live but we know people who moved to California for a few years and came back here, saying their money went farther here.
The internet can be a great thing but it keeps alot of people tucked away in their own little world. I still like to go out and shop and meet real people with real faces.
Gary

[Bob Genovesi]

In reply tool offer of 10 cents on the dollar , try and sell the equipment and tools from your shop , you will get many offers less than that.

I would expect that, but a wise man would say no.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I can only speak for myself. I am 35 years old and live just out side NYC in NJ. ...Also room for a shop is hard. Taxes are high, I am building a two car garage so I will have one side for some shop room the garage is going to cost 40K and the taxes are going to be about 2k a year. That is a big cost for a hobbie. I am hoping to keep it up I like doing it but it is getting harder and more expensive to do so.



New Jersey has become unbearable. The cost of living is far outpacing the other 49 states. The local news has reported that families are now moving out at an all time high. This makes things like woodworking, which requires space and time, much more difficult to do. Properties have become so valuable, that sub dividing is rampant and property taxes are an incentive to not 'improve' one's property further.

Also, most households require two or three jobs to keep things afloat. When does one have time for hobbies?

The other reason that may explain why woodworking may be on a decline nationwide has already been discussed in this post and similarly on other traditional hobby forums. There is simply a lack of creativity for anything that requires physical skills or patience by young folks today. And judging by what I see around my neighborhood, there is a lack of work ethic and assigned responsibility to perform any physical chore around the house. Therefore, how does one learn about anything or appreciate hand crafted things?

Right now, I believe woodworking is at an all time high. Most folks that grew up with a hands-on mentality are now in the position to have the time and money to do woodworking. However, our shift towards a disposable and service oriented society, and our quest for instant gratification, does not portray a bright future for woodworking as a hobby. I also anticipate that 'globalization' and our poor trade policy will further suppress the professional woodworking market too.

Oh well...Jeff :)

[Ed Brady]

A very interesting thread and something I have been thinking about, too. I am in Colorado Springs and was thrilled to find a beautiful WW hobby shop at nearby Fort Carson. As a vet I could buy wood there and use machines I might not have at home. Alas, it was sparsely used and the Army closed it. What a loss. And with thousands of soldiers there (the ones who are not in Iraq) it seemed odd that they couldn't get just a few to use the facility. The auto hobby shop is much more popular.

As a result of this loss I am beefing up my own shop and attended the ww show in Denver on Friday with a fellow wood worker. It was my first so I have no basis for comparison, but the space they had was filled with vendors (Peachtree was huge) and crowded with attendees. There is also a huge tool store in Denver (Tool King) where we stopped and it is undergoing remodeling and already has an extensive selection.

In terms of classes I cannot find much here. The local community college does not offer anything in ww, for example.

A mystery to me is this: If ww is falling off why are new lines of products appearing? Steel City, SawStop and others are entering the market. Plus there seem to be a lot of new gadgets, jigs, etc. on the market.

One final observation. We are seeing this in other areas. Ham radio (ARRL) for example is struggling to get new folks interested.

[Gary Keedwell]

mystery to me is this: If ww is falling off why are new lines of products appearing? Steel City, SawStop and others are entering the market. Plus there seem to be a lot of new gadgets, jigs, etc. on the market.


Just a quick note: The process to bring new products to the market can be extensive. From conception, finance, R&D, marketing etc. can literally take years in some cases. We could be witnessing the residue of more prosperous times.

Gary