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Mauro Prosia
11-10-2007, 9:27 PM
Hello evryone, I'm new on the forum and have been researching various lasers and was wondering if I could get some feedback from the masters?

I am considering buying a laser engraver sometime in 2008. I live in Ontario,Canada and was looking at the Universal lasers and the Laser Pro line. I would like to know which seems to be better of the two from those that have been on this forum longer or owners of these brands. I am looking at 12x24 or slightly larger size and advantages/disadvantages to both.
I would also appreciate price ranges in US/Canadian dollars as a comparison if possible. The ULS I was looking at was a 50 watt and the Laser Pro 30 watt. Both were in the $20,000.00 range .

Please provide me with what ever you may know, good or bad on these manufactures products and your recommendations if possible.

I thank you all in advance, and I am looking to gain great knowledge before purchasing and am thankful to have found this site . It has been very educational so far to say the least.

All the best
Mauro

Tony Lenkic
11-10-2007, 10:42 PM
Mauro, welcome to the forum.

There are couple more lasers reps in Ontario. I would suggest you may want to look at them all. I have ULS one and some of other Ontario based members on the forum own Laser Pro, Epilog, Trotec or Xenetech. All these lasers can be found in Ontario showrooms.
Where are you located?

Nancy Laird
11-10-2007, 10:59 PM
Mauro, welcome to the forum and welcome to the world of lasering. As you can see in my signature line, we own two ULS machines, a 20W and a 40W. Both of them were purchased used. The 20W was built in 1996 and is still on the original tube. The 40W was built in mid-2005 and we've not had a speck of trouble with it. I don't know whether we were exceptionally lucky or whether the ULS machines are exceptional machines, but I prefer to believe it's the machines. Every ULS owner I've talked to is satisfied with the machines.

There are lots and lots of threads here on the forum about the various brands and how they compare. You can do a search in the Laser forum or just start at the beginning and read the ones that talk about the pros and cons of the various makes and models. The salesman's promises and price aren't the most important aspects---service is. Keep that in mind while you are comparing.

Nancy (41 days)

Mauro Prosia
11-19-2007, 9:33 PM
Hi Nancy/Tony;

Thanks for your replies. I am located in Hamilton Ontario and am doing some homework at this time on laser engravers and find them very interesting. I am attempting to get through the terminology and facts about each. Like everyone else I am looking for the most bang for my buck but don't want to be having to upgrade do to lack of homework. I have been reading a great deal on this forum and it has helped. Sometimes reading too much thugh can get you confused trying to remember everything...lol.

Can anyone tell me what table size you would most recommend from your experience owning a laser and attempting projects?

What would be a good wattage without having to upgrade too soon? Would 30 watts be ok for most projects is that a common level or would 40-50 be more common?

Thanks again to all for great reading and excellent work by everyone. You guys/gals should be the sales reps...

Mauro

Joe Pelonio
11-19-2007, 9:42 PM
Mauro,

I find that most of my work is cutting 1/4" acrylic. While that may not happen with you, 30 watts is pretty slow to cut that. I have 45 watts and mine does fine with it but with even more wattage than that I could do more work in less time.

Gary Hair
11-19-2007, 9:55 PM
Can anyone tell me what table size you would most recommend from your experience owning a laser and attempting projects?

What would be a good wattage without having to upgrade too soon? Would 30 watts be ok for most projects is that a common level or would 40-50 be more common?

Mauro,
I have a Pinnacle ZX, 30 watt machine. The bed is 38" x 20" and I can open the front and rear doors to give me infinite length at 38". Some say this is a waste of money but I have done more work in the last year simply because it would fit and I wouldn't want to turn that work away. Nobody else in town can do it and I can pretty much charge anything I want - no competition!
I have 30 watts and haven't found anything that I can't do with it. I don't see much reason for spending several thousand more for 40 or 50 watts when it won't work that much faster. 40 watts is 30% more powerful but I don't think it cuts 30% faster than 30, same with 50, it's 66% more powerful but I doubt it cuts 66% faster than 30. I could be wrong, especially since I don't have 40 or 50 watts, but from what I have seen others post, it won't make that much difference. If you are going to cut a LOT of acrylic then it might pay off, but otherwise it won't change things too much.

I would recommend:
1. Buy from the most responsive company/rep that you can find
2. Buy the biggest laser you can afford
3. Buy the most powerful laser you can afford

In my opinion, those are the three most important factors and in the order that I place their importance. Some will disagree with 2 and 3, but almost nobody will argue with 1.

Gary

Scott Shepherd
11-19-2007, 10:40 PM
None of us can tell you what size to buy without knowing a lot more about what you plan to do. If you plan to mark wooden pens for a living, then it would mean one thing. If you were planning on making commercial office signs, it might mean something else.

Without knowing how you plan to use it, it's hard to offer up anything other than biased information based on our own experiences. If you plan to take anything and everything you can get your hands on, then it'll probably lead you to more power and larger table sizes. If you plan to use it as a hobby and only do Ornaments, then it might be okay to get the smaller table.

Please help us help you by telling us what your plans for the laser are.

In almost a year of having a laser, I just had my first job that wouldn't fit on the 18" x 24" table we have. I sub contracted it out for what was a very fair price. But, I don't run across that type of work often, so it's not worth it for me.All depends on what you will be doing.

Mauro Prosia
11-20-2007, 10:01 AM
Thanks to all of you for your great input. I do plan to work on images on granite, wood and glass mostly but do not want to be restricted if possible to just those. This will be more of a hobbie/home based business if you will. I'm a single dad looking to enjoy my past time and hopefully make some extra money to put away for my childrens education....I hope...lol.

I also would like my children to eventually be able to be creative and possibly share my interest as they grow. They would first have to be responsible enough to use the laser and wait their turn..lol.

Thanks again to all of you. If and when I do make my purchase I will have to keep reading this forum to hopefully gain the knowledge and experience you have all obtained.Until then reading will have to suufice.

Mauro

Nancy Laird
11-20-2007, 10:11 AM
Mauro, do you have any experience or knowledge of any graphics programs, such as CorelDraw X3 (13)? If not, then your learning curve for a laser will be long and steep, and you should probably get a copy of that program NOW and start learning it, before you take the plunge into a laser. Operating the laser is only a minor part of running a laser business--you have to know how to get your images right on the screen before they get sent to the laser for engraving.

As far as table size, most of what you want to do (except perhaps tombstone-size granite!) can be done on a standard 12x24 or 18x24 table--the larger the table, the more space the machine will consume, so you have to look at where you are going to put the machine. Both of ours are 12x24 and I can think of one job in 2-1/2 years that we've had to turn away because of size. We had one job that the guy wanted a sign that was 12 x 49", and we were able to cut his material in half and do half of his sign at a time, then he put the two pieces back together.

As far as power, unless you are going to be trying to cut 1/2" acrylic or something similar, you probably don't need more than 40 to 45W of power in the laser. Our 40W will do everything we throw at it, and we do marble, granite, glass, acrylic (both cut and engrave), as well as wood. It's a matter of getting the speed and power settings right for what you want to do.

If you want to do glassware, then you're going to want a rotary attachment for the laser--they are pricey (about $1K), but if you build a market for engraved wine glasses or the like, it will soon pay for itself.

Just a few thoughts for so early in the morning.

Nancy (31 days)

Mauro Prosia
11-20-2007, 10:17 AM
Good morning and thanks Nancy for the info, great help. I will be purchasing the Corel X3 soon as you suggested but my purchase won't be til some time in the new year, possibly spring time so hopefully I can learn the Corel program to some degree first as you suggested.

Thanks again, kep sending me those tips...I can use it..lol

I like seeing photo's of some of the members work as well to see how things turn out, excellent stuff guys and gals.

Mauro

Vicky Orsini
11-20-2007, 10:40 AM
Mauro, welcome to the forum. :)

Are you sure about those prices you quoted? I bought my machine about a year ago. When I was looking, ULS was having a promotion - 10 free watts. However, to get the same wattage on the ULS as on any other machine, it worked out to about $2,000 more, even with the 10 free watts. You might want to confirm that price. I found it very confusing at the time - the wording was a little hard to follow.

Will you be going to Mississauga to see the demos? You can see the ULS, Epilog and Trotec demos in that area. LaserPro doesn't have a demo unit in Ontario (their closest sales team is in Montreal), but they can send you to a client's shop to see their machine. That's what I did.

My machine is 30watts. I find it fine for cutting acrylic and wood, as long as I stick with 1/4". I plan to get the 4" lens soon, which will let me go up to 1/2". It's a little slow, but not so slow that I get impatient with it. I'm not in high production like some of the other folks on here, so I don't have projects lined up for hours ... yet. ;) If/when I do get bigger, I'll just upgrade my tube ... or maybe buy a used machine, now that I kind of know what I'm doing (yeah, right! :p ).

I agree with getting CorelDraw and playing with it for a while before getting your machine. You can get CorelDraw for about $410, shipping and taxes in, from Insight (http://www.insight.ca/apps/productpresentation/index.php?product_id=CR3ENGPC&nbs_search=C%3D111%26S%3D300107%26lang%3Den-ca%26K%3D%26M%3DCR%26201817v%3DCorelDraw). You should get Photograv, too, if you're planning on doing photos. It just makes it a lot easier.

It's a lot of fun to make things for the kids, but I don't let them near the machine when it's running. It's a natural tendancy to watch it cut, but the brightness of the light as it cuts might cause damage to the eye if you stare directly at it.

Get ready, though. You're going to be lasering everything in your house when you first get the machine. :D

Tony Lenkic
11-20-2007, 11:37 AM
Vicky,

Yes there is a Laser Pro rep in Ontario. They are located across from Pearson Int'l airport on Galaxy Boulevard. I have a flier from them but I did not visit them yet.

Mauro,

I've asked for your location so that I could give you contact for reps in your area. As far as I know your closest contact would be in Ancaster (Xenetech rep) just outside of Hamilton. You could ask them to demo some of work that you are planing to do so you get better idea. In Missisauga are reps for Epilog, Universal and Trotec. In Scarborough is one of Chinese laser rep. and LaserPro I have listed above to Vicky.

Scott Shepherd
11-20-2007, 11:39 AM
You can get CorelDraw for about $410, shipping and taxes in, from Insight (http://www.insight.ca/apps/productpresentation/index.php?product_id=CR3ENGPC&nbs_search=C%3D111%26S%3D300107%26lang%3Den-ca%26K%3D%26M%3DCR%26201817v%3DCorelDraw).

Or for $138 here :

http://www.buybusinesssoftware.com/

I have bought from them, as well as others on the forum and it was brand new, in the box, legal copies, all shipped quickly.

Sandra Force
11-20-2007, 11:51 AM
I would recommend:
1. Buy from the most responsive company/rep that you can find
2. Buy the biggest laser you can afford
3. Buy the most powerful laser you can afford

I have to agree with Gary on these being the most important criteria. I would also recomend visiting the dealers and getting a feel for their knowledge and will they be able to help you when you break down at 6:00pm and need the order out the same night. If I were to cut back on either table size or power then it would be power if I could upgrade tube power later. You can do 2 or 3 cuts on most things but if it won't fit in the engraver you can't do it. One of the most poplar things that I engrave are custom cabinet doors, but they take at least 18x36 to do.

Your market will for a large part determin the size that you need but
give yourself some room to grow.

Good luck and have fun.

Vicky Orsini
11-20-2007, 1:18 PM
Or for $138 here : http://www.buybusinesssoftware.com/ :eek: Where were you a month ago when I was looking to buy?!?! :(

Tony, I think the rep you're talking about is the "client" of the rep in Montreal. They have an arrangement. He's actually a sign maker, but he does demos for them and they have a small desk in his office for when they're in town doing service calls.

Scott Shepherd
11-20-2007, 2:39 PM
:eek: Where were you a month ago when I was looking to buy?!?! :(

The info has been up for almost a year, just use the "search" button before buying! I think Ed Maloney (sp?) posted it some time ago and I just followed his recommendation.

Mike Hood
11-20-2007, 2:45 PM
I have a Pinnacle ZX (LaserPro Explorer II) and can tell you from personal experience that I DO use the full table all the time... and YES, I have had to use the pass-throughs for larger pieces.

I've never heard a person with a wide table say... "Wow... I wish had gotten a smaller table" anymore than anyone has ever said "I wish this laser weren't so powerful or fast..." :)

You just need to get the biggest bang for your buck.

For me:

1. Buy the biggest laser you can afford
2. Buy the most powerful laser you can afford (preferably with a common Synrad or Coherent tube)
3. Buy from the most responsive company/rep that you can find

Vicky Orsini
11-20-2007, 3:20 PM
The info has been up for almost a year, just use the "search" button before buying! I think Ed Maloney (sp?) posted it some time ago and I just followed his recommendation.
I did search. I only found reference to some $395 deals somewhere down south, so I figured I was getting a steal. :rolleyes: Guess I didn't put the right string in the search box. Ah, well. It's only money, right? :p

Scott Shepherd
11-20-2007, 3:30 PM
Sorry about that Vicki, let me change from use the search to "just ask" :) Wish I had known you were looking for it, I would certainly have offered up the link.

Tony Lenkic
11-20-2007, 3:32 PM
Vicky,

I received a flier invitation "OPEN HOUSE March 24/25" from this company that sells LaserPro, Techno Isle and Roland machines, but did not attend. It could very well be as you said. I assumed they are reps not sign company. The company I am reffering to is Canuck Technologies and on their web site they have 416 area number listed. Did you go to Montreal to make a purchase or did you see them in Toronto?

Mauro Prosia
11-20-2007, 8:23 PM
Thanks,

I have seen the Laser Pro rescently at a show with Canck Technologies and am aware of their TO Location. What I really wanted to know is it's reliability etc from the standpoint of actual users, you know pro's nd con's. I have a meeting with Trotec tomorrow to get a demo and pricing and have been to UL in Mississuaga, also a nice unit.

Why is it so hard to choose? UL has 50 watts and 18x24, Laser Pro 18x38 and 30 watts and Trotec 12x24 and 45 watts. Trotec leading in cst followed by UL and then Laser Pro.


Hmmmmm choices choices....help...lol

Lots of time still so support,warranty and price will dictate in the end.

Thanks
Mauro

Vicky Orsini
11-20-2007, 9:26 PM
Tony, that's them. Canuck Technologies. I went to see them at the shop to which you're referring. It's an interesting set-up. I believe he got a good deal on his machines because he lets them demo their stuff in his shop and use his office as their Toronto base camp. I believe he has one of their CNC routers, too. He does some really nice work, so it speaks well for the machines.

Mauro, I have the LaserPro Explorer II 30W. I love my machine. But, I don't have any other machine to compare it to. I think you'll find that's the case with most people. They choose one machine over another for whatever reason, and then stick with that manufacturer for all future purchases.

I chose LaserPro because:
a) it's a very solidly-built machine, I felt it was more solid than the others I had seen (possibly Trotec was built slightly better, but it was also more expensive),
b) the price was right - for about $2,000 less, I got a larger table, pass-through doors, and all the attachments included,
c) the salesman wasn't the type to bash the competition, which is more than I could say for the others I spoke with. I felt he was being the most honest.

The service man will come to your location for training, which is very convenient. He won't show you how to use Corel, so make sure you have a good understanding of that before you buy, but he'll show you everything about the machine, including maintenance. And, if you need help after he's gone, he's always willing to help you over the phone (if he's not in your area at the time).

One issue I have with my machine is the auto focus. I don't use it. The wires for the auto focus run in a track on the rail that the lens assembly runs on, and they tend to get chewed up because the lens assembly is moving back and forth so quickly. So when you least expect it, the auto focus will fail and your table will drive up into your lens assembly. :eek: I simply don't use the auto focus anymore. It's rediculously easy to use the manual focus.

When I was shopping around, the first thing I did was get everyone's brochures. Then, using the brochures, I set up a spreadsheet with all of the data on it (size, wattage, servo vs. stepper, etc...). Finally, when I went around to all the demos, I took LOTS of notes. That way, I could compile everything on my spreadsheet and compare them side by side. But, then again, I'm a little anal that way. :p

Scott, thanks for that. :D Wish I had thought to ask! That's what I get for making my own decisions without discussing it with my fellow Creekers first! ;)

Mike Hood
11-20-2007, 10:03 PM
TWhat I really wanted to know is it's reliability etc from the standpoint of actual users, you know pro's nd con's.

I've had mine for over a year now and it's been wonderful. No problems, no misgivings about the performance, service or reliability.


Why is it so hard to choose? UL has 50 watts and 18x24, Laser Pro 18x38 and 30 watts and Trotec 12x24 and 45 watts. Trotec leading in cst followed by UL and then Laser Pro.

Have you talked to Sign Warehouse? In the end, they gave me the best price on paper. I talked to all at length (ULS, Epilog, Sign Warehouse and Trotec) and them told them in no uncertain terms that I wanted a fax'd quote for their BEST price on a Wide Bed, 40W laser (including delivery) by the end of the day. I then challenged each one last time to meet or beat their competitor. Only one did... and they did that rather handily

I got a great deal.... I have had great customer service (a tech rep right here on the Creek) and am really happy with mine.

Rob Bosworth
11-21-2007, 12:32 PM
I keep reading that owner's are going to upgrade laser power when the need arizes. Have any of you actually upgraded laser power on your machine? Everytime I look at doing it on a used laser engraving machine, the cost is so high that I don't understand how anyone could afford to do it. Maybe they just know me and jack the prices up. But I doubt it. I think all the hubba bubba about upgrading laser power is a marketing ploy. Yes you can do it, but can you afford to do it?

Sandra Force
11-21-2007, 3:41 PM
I have to admit that when it came time to upgrade power I just got a new machine. But that said I also had enough to do to keep the old and new one busy and that justified the money for a second machine.