the best tools or good enough?

[Zahid Naqvi]

I have read the concept so many times "buy the best tool you can afford". But it does not work for a starting wood worker, like myself, who is trying to equip his shop. If I stick to this axiom I would more likely quit wood working as the price tag associated with just getting started is beyond a hobbyists range. I have a mixed approach towards this, tools that would produce a finished edge I tend to buy the best I can afford; these wopuld include router, hand planes, chisels etc. While tools that would probably require another process to produce the finished edge, I tend to go a little cheap on; these would include bench saw, jig saw etc. The intent being instead of waiting six months where I can buy the minimum set of tools to get me started why not buy a mixed bag of things, eventually replace the cheap one by high quality tools as time goes by. This keeps my hobby alive, and hopefully by learning the craft on cheaper tools I develop skill faster/better and also get to appreciate more what a quality tool can do for you.

There are two reasons for this outburst. Firstly, yesterday I went to the dreaded "Harbor Freight tools" outlet in Little Rock and bought a couple of 36" bar clamps for $4.49 each (similar clamps in Home depot will cost me $40 each). I eyeballed them and they looked reasonably straight, besides there is enough play in the clamp jaws to make up for that anyway.

The second reason is to ask you guys about what tools do you think should be of absolutely the best quality affordable, and which ones we can get away with less than the best quality.

Zahid Naqvi

[Lee Schierer]

You have to consider more than just price when you buy a tool following the axiom "Buy the best you can afford".

You have to consider how much time and materials you will waste on a "cheap" tool. You also have to consider whether the level of frustration you will develop from using a less than satisfactory tool will exceed your desire to complete the project. Buying good tools doesn't always mean buying the most expensive tool.

With regard to your second question, you can probably get away with lower quality, I know I'm going to hear lots of opinions on this, clamps to a point. I use pipe clamps and they do a perfectly adequate job. They cost about $12 each plus a length of 3/4" pipe. Now you can buy Bessy clamps and spend a whole lot more and you will have some really nice looking clamps, but do they clamp any better, most likely not. An plain electric drill will work just as well as a cordless one and it is cheaper to buy. Yes there is a cord, but that isn't all that hard to deal with.

You can buy any number of table saws starting at a few hundred up to a few thousand dollars. The more expensive ones are usually more powerful, but really don't cut any better than the blade you put on them. You can pay less and get the same job done. However, you might have to do some more alignments to get it set up and maybe align it more often than the higher priced one. I've seen some mighty fine work come off some really cheap saws.

In the end it the hands using the tools that have the skill, not the tool.

[Dave Sweeney]

In the end it the hands using the tools that have the skill, not the tool.

That just about sums it all up really. The only tool that must always be of the highest quality available is patience. With it you can create some beautiful work, without it, firewood.

[Bobby Hatfield]

I have read the concept so many times "buy the best tool you can afford".

The second reason is to ask you guys about what tools do you think should be of absolutely the best quality affordable, and which ones we can get away with less than the best quality.

Zahid Naqvi

Zahid, I did the same, many years ago, with a brand called "globmaster", precursor to HF I guess, only you can decide if your tool is quality enough. If it does the job you want at the quality and quanity you will accept, (you will accept less and less problems in your hobby "work"), then it is the right tool for you, (it was for me). Until you will not accept that problem with that tool. Cheap tools that do a low quality or quanity job does help you develop your woodworking skills faster. Work holding tools that we use while working on a project, that really do a quality job will give more satisfaction than the tool that does the job. Take care. Please help us with keeping that tropical bird of your aquaintence in line.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Please help us with keeping that tropical bird of your aquaintence in line.

I am afraid Dennis is a lost cause. I've had the pleasure of visiting his shop on one ocassion, he has got more money invested in his shop than I have in both automobiles I own. Then again he is much more comitted and skilled at this craft than I am and produces some absolutely wonderful work. The pictures he posted of the CD rack a short while ago don't do justice to the actual piece.

Lee your advice is well taken, my thoughts exactly. As a hobbyist I don't expect to make any money out of my projects, and since I do woodworking for recreation time spent in the shop is time well spent irrespective of whether I have anything to show for it or not. To quote an example, I bought a $30 Buck bros. hand plane from Home depot a few weeks ago. Last week, after having read a book on hand tools, I decided to tackle tuning the plane. I pretty much spent all day Sat, about 6-7 hrs, flattening the bed, filing and adjusting the chip breaker, sharpening the blade etc. and still it was not done. On the other hand I learned a lot on what function each of these componants performs and how much impact in usability and quality of work will be produced by improving each one. Now if I had bought a LN or any other high quality plane I probably would have been able to use it out of the box with minimum tuning needed, how would in that case I learn about all these interesting things my cheap Buck bros. taught me. Now if I can get hold of some old Stanleys from a flea market it will further my education of hand tools.

On the otherhand the router I use is Porter Cable and the finishing sander is Makita, sticking to my original theory of using the best I can afford for finishing cuts.

Zahid

[Chris Padilla]

Zahid,

It is tough when you are starting out. Should you buy 5 so-so tools to get you going or only get 2 great tools but potentially limit what you can do?

Unless you have a lot of money, the obvious choice is to buy what you can to do the job you need. Frankly, I am amazed what my Dad built with second-hand tools, and an old Craftman contractor saw. It was only many years later that a 10" Makita miter saw made it into his garage and he thought he hit the motherlode! That saw is now 7 years old! Only recently did he get a planer and, again, he thought he hit the motherlode!

Do your best to establish what you need to do what you want and then go for it. When your skill develops and money stockpiles a bit, you can then go for more using the same method.

One thing I will say, and it isn't much fun nor will it help you make any nice pieces, is dust control. This is really a health concern. Unfortunately, many of the tools that have good dust control are not cheap and the whole DC issue isn't cheap. Choking on MDF dust isn't fun but it isn't terribly cheap to control correctly. I guess a good facemask might be the cheapest way to go.

Good Luck to you in your quest and we'll always be here to offer our two cents worth.

[Dennis Peacock]

Zahid,

You have to remember that I NEVER started out with what I have today. I started out very much like you....except I never saw the need for a hand plane until years later. Wisdom does come with age!! ;)

I don't have a single Ashley chisel - Buck Brothers and Marples
I don't have a Powermatic or Delta or General TS - It a Jet
I don't have a single LN hand plane - a Record Jack Plane and a Stanley Block Plane
I don't have a Oneway or Stubby lathe - a Jet 1236
I don't have a Felder 731 Combo machine - Robland X31

I could go on and on here. My point? I don't have the best there is either. The best is only in the eye of the beholder. If a Lowes bought Stanley plane is best for you....then that will be perfect. I have visited with woodworkers that have a LOT nicer stuff / tools than I, but I was only jealous for a few hours and then it was back to reality. I have been to woodworkers shops that have a LOT LESS stuff / tools than I and yet turn out better / nicer furniture that any I've seen.

In short? Buy the best and most affordable "golly-gee-whizz" you can and learn about the tool AND develop your skills. As time, knowledge, skill and patience increase for you, so will the quality of your tools. If anyone tells you that you can't do woodworking unless you have a 10" Industrial Cabinet Saw.....they need to go back to school.

Middle of the road tools in skilled hands can produce beautiful things.

Off Soapbox Now......

[Michael Ballent]

The way I see it is that you can ramp your skills up faster if you are using quality tools from the beginning... I have seen people rip what little hair they have on their head trying to compinsate for the tool. I will take you example of the jigsaw to illustrate the point. Both cut wood, but how easy is it to follow the line or stay on one side of the line when the jigsaw is bouncing all over the place... Blade changes one the better machines are quick and easy, on mine I just flip a lever and I can have the blade pop out, saving me from burning my fingers or getting some pliers, rag what ever to pull the blade out or protect my hands when you need to find the screw driver to change out the blade...

In the resale market you can at least recoup a larger percentage of your cost with a name brand tool... Or make money on E-Prey if your auction is caught up in the bidding frenzies I have seen in the past :D . HF stuff well you can give them away once you upgrade or toss them if they break. I have a friend that purchased a Ryobi cordless drill about a 12-18 months ago and the battery has died, the only replacements he can find cost as much as the original drill he bought... now what??? He will probably buy another Ryobi drill because it is cheap and will probably have to go through the same deal down the road... PC, Dewalt, Milwaukee, etc not such a big deal to get a replacement battery, unless your drill is 10 years old :D.

Just my thoughts on the subject. Take them for the 2 cents they are worth :D

-Michael

[Tyler Howell]

You will find a couple of HF things around here one actually gets used regularly. Most didn't live vary long.
As a ski instructor I caution students not to by the best they can afford and be painfully honest about their abilities when they shop until their skills improve. The more expensive skis and snowboards are made for the advanced rider that can take advantage of the side cut, stiffness, camber, and beveled edge of the ski. I have watched new students flail around needlessly for hours with equipment that was too advanced for the user. Skis are specialized for ability, terrain, conditions and type of skiing.
You will find the same in guitars where the noobie instrument is forgiving and makes it easy for the student to learn.

With power tools the pro modal is heavier, more duarable, more powerful, can take a header off an 8 foot ladder and live to tell about it.
I have an old Milwaukee Magnum Hole shooter that will spin you around the room if you’re not watching.
Before you buy the best make sure you like WW. Then Never buy cheap tools. ;)

[Jim Becker]

The most expensive tools are the ones you need to replace early and often.

That being said, Lee is correct...it's what you do with the tools you have that counts the most. It's the bottom line. Any advantage you can give yourself with buying better quality, however, will make things easier...less fighting with the tool lets you concentrate on the art. That doesn't necessarily mean buying "top of the line"; 'just making careful investments that you are comfortable with.

[Sam Chambers]

Zahid:

There has been some excellent advice posted here. Let me add a couple of points, as someone relatively new to the hobby.

Buy your tools as you need them. I have a bad habit of getting caught up in "Tool Acquisition Mode" instead of actually building stuff. I live in Atlanta, and there's a big woodworker's toy store called Highland Hardware here. I can wander around in there for hours thinking up potential uses for everything in the store!

Quite often you'll find that there's more than one way to accomplish the same woodworking task. For example, there are people who don't own a jointer, but still manage to get straight edges on their boards with hand planes, router jigs or table saw jigs.

When shopping for new tools, read all the reviews you can, but don't get too caught up in all the gushing over the best-of-the-best. When I was researching hand planes, everyone just gushed on and on about the high end planes like Lie-Nielsen and Clifton. They are excellent products, to be sure. But you can get the job done with something substantially less expensive.

When you decide you need a certain tool, ask yourself if this is a tool you see yourself using often. If so, it probably pays to spend a bit more. If it's something that you'll only use occasionally, don't spring for the big bucks. Example: If you decide you need a biscuit joiner, and you can imagine yourself using it often, look at the Porter Cable, Dewalt, or even the Lamello. If it's more likely to be an occasional thing, buy the cheap little Ryobi, or go rent one for a day.

As others have said, skill counts for at least as much as tool quality. I'll bet Sam Maloof could do far more with my 14" Jet band saw than I ever could. Sometimes the best investment you can make is education and training, followed by a committment to practice. When I can get back in the shop, I plan on gluing up a bunch of pine blocks and practice making bandsaw boxes, just to get more practice on the band saw. (Cutting curves is not easy, unless you're like me and your straight cuts come out curved!)

Don't get discouraged with the price tag of this hobby. There's an awful lot you can do with moderately priced tools. And don't forget about buying used or "scratch-and-dent" tools - they're a great way to get good tools for less $$$.

Good luck!

[Chris Padilla]

Sam,

Great points. I see this same thing on another board I frequent, a BMW board. People who post there are "mod" crazy. They want tighter suspensions, bigger sway bars, engine software to boost power, bigger wheels, etc. I tell most of them that the best way to take advantage of the wonderful handling of a BMW is to take some driving lessons on a track! You'll outdrive someone who put an extra 5k in his car who didn't take lessons....

[Scott Coffelt]

Shoot me if I am wrong here but I find you can do quite a bit with a couple of key tools.

Drill (It doesn't have to be a cordless) --- $50-60
Router (Get a good one here and you can be far ahead then buying a cheapo) $100-150
Buy bits as you need them, I did buy a set and have used about 2/3's.
Jig Saw $75-150
Hammer $15
Sander (assuming you don't want to hand sand everything but it can be done. $50
Good Quality Square, again a cheapo only will compound the problem. $25+
Chisels - My stanley and buck brothers work fine, need sharpening more often the best though. $25
Plane $25-50

If you can swing it, a TS. You might look used to start or really spend some money a good one. I started with a contractors, owned it about 8 years and sold it for about 50%. I was just fine with that. i know have a cabinet. Would I love to have a Euro model, sure... but there's no dollars in the budget so I will do with what I have.

From these you can build jigs to do a large variety of tasks from planing to jointing to whatever. The other specialized tools just make the job easier and more efficient. I built a hutch and dining room table with about this list. (I didn't own the TS at the time but borrowed a friends).

Once the wife saw I could do it, she let me buy one tool at a time. I would love to say I bought the best, but I bought what I could afford. As my skills got better, so did my tools, and so on and so on.

Look for used it will help soften the blow, assuming the tool is of good quality and condition.

The last thing I would want to see is someone quit becuase they thought they had to buy a $7k Euro saw or $2k bandsaw. You already started what many don't, is to learn the details about a tool and how to maximizes its efficiency and performance.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Sound advice Sam. My tool acquisition so far is driven by need and projects I choose to tackle, and it all started with a broken chair leg. We had just moved into our first house a couple of months ago, and I was begining to contemplate what I was going to do with all this space in my 2 car garage (looks real big when you have been living in apartments for the last 5 yrs). Anyway, one of our dining chairs conveniently broke it's leg. I proudly declared that I will fix this chair at a cost much less than that of a new chair, but I would have to get some basic tools. That was the excuse to buy a cross cut saw and a used dowelling jig off ebay, plus some 14" clamps. Well I got the chair fixed for the cost of a new chair but got all these tools in bonus, which I dutifully reminded my wife will pay for themselves in future projects. Next in line was a bookshelf. I had to get a router because there was no other way I could get the corners rounded perfectly. By then my wife had figured out the game, but she was happy to some extent because I was making useful projects (and she was probably sick of listening to stories of how I used to love working in my dad's shop in my early teens). Next to come was kids furniture, which I convinced my wife I can build at a much lower cost than new, a better quality and designed exactly the way she would like. This is when I discovered Dennis' woodworking affinity, a day spent in his shop to get a head board completed basically sealed the deal for me. As you might have guessed by now, along come a work bench (built myself) and table saw(BD present). I am building a Shoji style divider screen these days, the kids furniture is an ongoing project which I will build in bits and pieces all year.

The moral of this truly entertaining story ;-) is that the purchases I made were driven by what I needed for certain projects. This seems to work for me in terms of growing my shop piece meal as well as keep the budget constraints in check.

Where I screw up sometimes is choosing which tools are more sensitive to quality and which ones not. For example; I am glad I bought a Porter Cable router, because is handles beautifully. While I regret buying a cheap Black and Decker Jig saw, because it can't handle anything thicker than 1/4" and the blade turns so much that I have to true the edges later with the router to get a 90 degree angle. The cheap block plane seems to work fine, althought it did require plenty of work to get it tuned but once corrected it seems satisfactory. The combination rasp + Chissel was a blunder. But that's how we learn I guess. I was hoping you guys could give me tips on avoiding such pitfalls.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Scott, Gavin, Chris,
You guys think like I do, makes me feel good to know I am on the right track. The two or three bad purchases I made were in the days before I was introduced to Dennis and SMC (no one to consult before making a purchase), but now I know better. A few sharpening stones and I should be self sufficient.

[Stan Smith]

Zahid, please don't despair. We all started with less than we have now. I'm still a hobbyist and I had less expensive stuff 15 years ago, too. It's only in the last year or 2 that I have been able to upgrade. I had a contractors saw for years and it cut very well. I still have my Reliant 6" jointer and it still works well. I probably have 20 or so HF cheapo bar clamps that I still use. I bought some good used planes from Pat Leach. Yeah, I would like a LN dovetail saw but I have to wait for my birthday. Hey, nothing wrong using handtools and you might even like the process better. I know I do sometimes--even sanding by hand rather than trying to use machines for everything. Rome wasn't built in a day (to coin a phrase).

Stan

[Michael Ballent]

Foul!!! You just stuck a closet gloat in your post :D 20 lashes with a wet noodle for you ;) BTW what BMW do you have...

[Sam Chambers]

You're a quick study! You've already mastered the philosophy of tool acquisition justification. Whenever SWMBO hears me talking about a new project, she always asks, "What new tools will you need, and how much will they cost?" It does add a new dynamic to a marriage! Just watch out for "retaliatory spending". My wife is into hand made Longaberger woodeh baskets, so when she gets a new basket, I get a new tool!

"Where I screw up sometimes is choosing which tools are more sensitive to quality and which ones not. For example; I am glad I bought a Porter Cable router, because is handles beautifully. While I regret buying a cheap Black and Decker Jig saw, because it can't handle anything thicker than 1/4" and the blade turns so much that I have to true the edges later with the router to get a 90 degree angle. The cheap block plane seems to work fine, althought it did require plenty of work to get it tuned but once corrected it seems satisfactory. The combination rasp + Chissel was a blunder. But that's how we learn I guess. I was hoping you guys could give me tips on avoiding such pitfalls."

We've all made tool-buying decisions that we later regret. You'll find that there are lots of folks around here who will gladly offer you some advice, if you can provide some details. Just start a thread saying, "I'm looking for a new (insert name of tool here), and I don't want to spend more than $XXX. What are my options?" The gang here will be sure to share their experiences and lend their expertise.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Zahid,

It sounds like you are off to a good start. Try some Bosh blades in your jig saw. They should help the performance some.

Post a question when you are thinking about a specific new tool and I'm sure you will get lots of tool specific information as to quality needed and brands that may save you some $$ and still give you great performance.

Have fun,

[Rick Potter]

Zahid,

I recommend you need two major tools, a table saw, and a band saw. These are the major ones you will find most usefull, in my opinion.

To save money, get them used. You can get a nice Craftsman table saw for between $150 and $200. The best part is, you usually get some blades, and a dado set with it for free. I have bought several of these.
Advice: make sure it is a cast iron table, with the motor hanging out the back. Check for rust, abuse and slack in the arbor.

I have bought two Delta 14" bandsaws used. Got one for $100, and another for $150. Just gave away a Jet because the tilt bracket was broken. Keep looking in the paper, and the pennysaver.

If you want a lot of fun for a little money look at the Ryobi sliding table saw at HD for $299. It is a light weight, but it does a lot of neat things. A friend of mine built a beautiful kitchen with one.

Rick Potter

[Ian Barley]

It is real difficult to work this out. I make my living off my tools and I don't buy "the best" simply because there is not usually a great difference between an OK tool and that "best". (There is often a huge difference between the cheapest and an OK tool)

My only other advice is to save some of your money for the working edge.

Best example I can give is a bandsaw. Almost everybody advises that if you buy a bandsaw you should throw away the blade that comes with it. Rightly so. I would also say that you should factor in to the purchase of a machine like that regular changes of blade and the cost thereof. The bit of a bandsaw (table saw/mitre saw/radial arm - take your pick) that does the important work is the edge on the blade. Putting yourself in hock on the purchase of the machine to an extent that you can't afford to change or maintain the blade is a mistake.

[Steven Wilson]

...Where I screw up sometimes is choosing which tools are more sensitive to quality and which ones not. For example; I am glad I bought a Porter Cable router, because is handles beautifully. While I regret buying a cheap Black and Decker Jig saw, because it can't handle anything thicker than 1/4" and the blade turns so much that I have to true the edges later with the router to get a 90 degree angle. The cheap block plane seems to work fine, althought it did require plenty of work to get it tuned but once corrected it seems satisfactory. The combination rasp + Chissel was a blunder. But that's how we learn I guess. I was hoping you guys could give me tips on avoiding such pitfalls.

The term "only cry once" or "buy the best you can afford" comes directly from experience with tools like the one you posted above. What's the easiest way to turn off someone to using handplanes? Simple, let them use a POS handplane with lots of slop that refuses to tune up well. If you've never used a plane that's in a proper state of tune how do you know that the plane you've been working on is tuned up? You can buy a new Veritas, Lee Nielsen, or Steve Knight handplane use it out of the box and get a fairly good idea of what a reasonably tuned plane can do (they all need some tuning but the ones I mentioned are pretty usable out of the box). If you want to turn off someone to the joys of a decent tablesaw let them cut sheet goods on a Shopsmith. Buying cheap is rarely, if ever, a good idea but geting a good value always is. The problem is "what is a good value" depends on what you want to do, your budget, your time, and your expectations. That's how a $300 Grizzly contractor saw and a $18K Felder can both be good "values". About your jigsaw - get a Bosch.

[Mark Singer]

Zahid,
I would pick a simple project and get good quality tools to complete that project, Pick a second simple project and add whatever quality tools you need in addition to the ones you have, You will determine from these projects how much you like the craft and only buying the tools as they are required. I would not buy junk! Some of my early squares I retired to my toolbox and use those on jobsites....the newer finer Starrette squares are in the shop where the finer acurracy is more important. If I had bought junk they would be of no use. Go slow and enjoy the journey ....you don't need it all at once. I know a finish carpenter that sharpens his chisels on a belt sander. His chisels are the Marples Blue Chip(cheap!)....his work would make most members on SMC take notice...he has built teak boats and fine furniture and has done fine finish work in multi million dollar homes! With simple tools and methods...his biggest tool is years of experience and a trained hand. I have learned from him just watching him move is little old Porter Cable router by hand mortising hinges...no guide! We should all make the most of the tools we have and use them to our best ability.

[Mark Singer]

Tyler,
You actually do something with all that terrible weather....I guess its great weather if your skiing...I've done a bit myself...in the mountains that is...we never get any in So Ca.!, :cool:Mammoth,Utah, Colorado....my daughter was a ski instructer ...her only woodworking project to date was sanding her wood high heals down a bit...it was an Ebay purchase...you know some things need a bit of work:p

[Chris Padilla]

Foul!!! You just stuck a closet gloat in your post :D 20 lashes with a wet noodle for you ;) BTW what BMW do you have...

Michael,

I'll assume that you are talking to me. :) I have a 2001 530i: 5-speed manual of course! :D PM me...we can chat more if you like. :)

[Tyler Howell]

Tyler,
You actually do something with all that terrible weather....I guess its great weather if your skiing...I've done a bit myself...in the mountains that is...we never get any in So Ca.!, :cool:Mammoth,Utah, Colorado....my daughter was a ski instructer ...her only woodworking project to date was sanding her wood high heals down a bit...it was an Ebay purchase...you know some things need a bit of work:p

Mark,
Met a lot oF CA guys in Colorado and Utah. Almost like Flying!:cool:

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
Great analogy with the BMW's...I just recently joined a forum called "6speedonline.com" which is the same thing with Porsche's. I have a 2002 Twin Turbo which is mechanically stock. The guys on the forum are spending litterly fortunes changing turbos,shifters you name it . Getting up to 600HP! What for? It is more than plenty car right out of the box! One guy would not disclose what he spent on Mods...his wife might find out!!!! The other group are the guys who have their car for 3 years and have 3000 miles...they polish it a lot and look at it...talk about it...buy things for it! It is like having a Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 in the tool chest and not use it.
As you stated, it is what you do with what you have that is important. Skill that is learned by doing is the key and the journey to master the skill is great fun...even making mistakes along the way!That learned skill is the best tool anyone can have.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/

[Chris Padilla]

Mark,
Met a lot oF CA guys in Colorado and Utah. Almost like Flying!:cool:

Tyler,

I am originally from CO...grew up skiing! I sure do miss snow living in the Bay Area...Tahoe is too far to drive for too few lifts and too many people and too much money! whine, whine, whine...I need some cheese now...where are the WI boyz...oh, wait, CA is cheese country now!! :D

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
Your wining about cheese....thats fine just don"t cut it ...my computer is very sensitive

[Tyler Howell]

Chris,
A skier and woodworker!!!???? I feel much better about our business deal. The check is in the mail! I'll respect you in the morning, I'm from the Gov. I'm here to help you! ;)

[Dave Hammelef]

I have read the concept so many times "buy the best tool you can afford". But it does not work for a starting wood worker, like myself, who is trying to equip his shop. If I stick to this axiom I would more likely quit wood working as the price tag associated with just getting started is beyond a hobbyists range.

Zahid Naqvi
Lets see the axiom " Buy the best tool YOU can AFFORD"

so how is it out of your price range. All the axiom is saying is dont kid yourself if you can afford a cabinet saw, but think you will save some money and just get a Contractor saw, you will be kicking yourself in a few years cause you should have gotten the Cabinet Saw. If you can only afford a tabletop unit BUY IT. yes latter on you might upgrade, but you wont be kicking yourself cause you bought all you could at the time.

Another VERY important concept when starting is to only buy the tool you NEED to do a job, and skip that gadgets (most of them are not worth it). I have long wanted a Band saw, but never have had a job that needed on, by waiting they are getting less expensive and better made. When I do need one I will buy one, in the meantime I have bought alot of other tools that I use.

[scott spencer]

Hi Zahid - It looks like you've got alot of anwers already, but I'll add my two cents.

The heart of my shop is the TS, jointer, and planer. The TS is a GI contractor with a Biese fence (pretty good in it's category). The jointer is a Griz 1182. (smallish, but of adequate quality). The planer is a Delta 22-560. (again, not the best, but it does the job). For $1200-$1300, a beginner graduated to an intermediate using those tools. It's not likely that the budget will allow for upgrades anytime soon, nor do I feel it necessary for the time being.

Buy decent quality tools where precision matters....TS/fence/blade, jointer....maybe BS. A decent router and table are a reasonable investment... a Freud or Hitachi will do a good job in a home made RT....buy decent bits.

A decent DC is can be purchased for < $400. My experiences with inexpensive clamps (like the HF bar clamps) have been pretty good...seems like a logical place to save some $. I also think you can get by with a modest DP and palm sander....the best will have to wait.

A good bench is a must...you can build your own for $100-$200.

The most important tool is you. Just try to buy tools that you need and that are worth the price. Buying junk is a frustrating waste of money. Maybe someday I'll have a dream shop, but for now the thing I like best about my shop is that it's "my shop"!

[Diane Maluso]

I don't need to have the best tools there are just so long as they aren't so hideous that I need to fight them. There is nothing so joy-killing for me as having to constantly readjust a tool because it won't hold a set, having to set up a supposed-to-be-square clamping job a zillion times because the clamps don't work right, having to wrestle with the toolrest on a lathe because it won't clamp down tightly, having to sand the bejeezus out of something because the blade wobbled. But mostly, I just try to buy tools that are good enough as to be safe. I don't need the best but I want to be safe and I want to enjoy this hobby. It is, for me, after all a hobby and so I want it to be fun. So I got a Jet cab saw which is good enough and safe enough. I got a Lee Valley block plane which feels so very good to use, I got Bessey clamps which help me make things square when I'm clamping up without a helper, and I got a Nova lathe which is solid and strong enough to help me turn decent bowls. I buy the quality I need to make woodworking something I can do happily and safely.

Happy shavings.

Diane

[Allen Bookout]

There is one danger that I do not think has been discussed and that is in buying a tool that will just do the job. Thirty seven years ago I bought a Craftsman 10" radial arm saw. It just "did the job" but just barely and never very well (In truth some things it would not do that it shoud have). Since it did I just kept it all of those years and suffered from ruined wood, smoke from burning wood, danger from jamed and kicked out wood and subpar cuts not to mention hours of frustration. It is a wonder that I have not been out a fortune on mental treatment. I am sure that I have been out many dollars more by bad cuts than if I had come up with the money to buy a pretty good saw to start with. Just this year it finally disintegrated beyond repair and I was forced to buy a new saw and I made sure that I got a good one this time. Man - am I happy now.

After my experience I think that you are better off either by buying a tool so bad that you junk it right away or waiting a little bit and buying one that you are sure will do the job without diving you CRAZY. The next problem is figuring out what level that is but be sure that you do.

You may want to discount this advice as I realize that having that old saw for all of these years has affected my mentality and I may not be steering you straight --------- but it sure is something to think about.

Note: I should be recovered in another thirty seven years.

Allen

[Jeff Sudmeier]

This topic strikes a nerve with me. As others have said, if I had waited to buy a 24" planer, 16" jointer, 12" table saw, Cyclone dust collector and countless other tools that I would love to outfit my shop with someday, I wouldn't have woodworked for the last two years.

I cringe when I read someone post about should I get this table saw or jointer or planer, my budget is $500. Then 12 other guys come on the topic and say no!! For $1200 you can get this great tool!! Yeah but the guy would have to wait another two years to save for it :) (Example exagurated for clarity)

You know what I made my first real project with (the blanket chest)? A GASP!! 6" benchtop Craftsman (another gasp!) jointer, 12" benchtop craftsman planer W/O cutterhead lock and the craftsman jobsite saw!! Ohh my, how did I do it?

Very easily in fact!! Just two months ago I upgraded to a 8" DJ20 jointer, is it sweet?? YES!!! For sure!! Do I regret getting the 6" benchtop first NO!! I bought it for $200 and sold it for $100. I am sure that I got $100 of use out of that tool.

So I guess what I am saying is this. Get the tool that will do the job, you will have to learn the best technique for the job, because the cheaper tools are less forgiving then my dj20. Once you decided this hobby is for you, upgrade your tools one by one and get 1/2 the value out of the old ones.

The question you have to ask yourself is this, Did the money I lost equal a lot of fun on my part?? The $100 I "lost" on the jointer was well worth the fun I had in the shop during the time I had it! I have dropped $100 in a lot worse ways :)

All this said, I do have to say that this is the best forum for helping new woodworkers to find the right tool for them. The upgrade posts I was refering to was mainly from another forum. Without this forum, I would not have been able to learn all I have so quickly. Thanks guys!

[Kelly C. Hanna]

You're doing fine Zahid...none of us started out with the best tools and most as Dennis has said still don't have the top of the heap. As long as you don't find yourself wasting too much time and moeny replacing tools, you'll do fine. As with estimates on work done at your house....never take the lowest or highest bids! That means if you need a tool, don't buy the cheapest one just on price. Make sure there's a modicum of quality there.

My first shop was full of tools I no longer have....they got me started though and I made a living with them....course things are much better now, but the most expenzive tool in my shop is a Grizzly 1023 TS.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Its alive! I thought this thread was dead and burried. It's amazing to see how much I have learned about tools since I originally posted this thread, and most of the credit goes to SMC and Dennis Peacock.

My current philosopy is; The difference between low quality and high quality tools is time. I can do everything (almost) on a contractor grade table saw that a cabinet saw can, but I have to spend twice the time to make sure everything is lined up and straight. As long as I realize the limitation of my tools and don't ask them to do what they can't I am ok.

[Matt McCormick]

Zahid,

Sounds like you pretty much have got it. Some times, Quality equals higher performance, sometimes quality means longer life, and other times it means less work. For some our hobby is about fine tools and shops and what they can do. For others it's all about the fine furniture or projects that they make. Still others it's the act and work of using their hands to craft something that seems to come from within themselves. For most of us it is all the above. I am new to woodworking, but I am a toolmaker by trade (microsurgical tools). The best advice I could give you is, do every thing you can to understand the process that you are going to attempt. IF you are going to drill a hole understand what it takes to drill a hole the way you want it drilled.<O:p></O:p>

Then go to harbor freight or some where and look at the drills. IF it is a drill press grab the spindle and feel for slop on the $100 one then go to the $300 version feel the difference ask yourself if that would affect what a drill does and does it matter to you. <O:p></O:p>

It may or may not. I bought a GROZ plane the other day, what a pile of stuff this thing was. But after 2 hours of work it works as well as I can use a plane at this time in my experience. But 200 hours will never make it as fine as Lie-whatever. But until the day I have the money.... its Groz for me!!!! <O:p></O:p>

[Tyler Howell]

[QUOTE=Matt McCormick]Zahid, Welcome to the creek Matt. Great bunch of folks here. If you look through the threads you will see our buddy Zahid has done well with the good advice. Like to here more about your profession and maybe see some picture. Not only do we like pix but insist on them.;)
Glad to have you wading with the best.

[Jim Dannels]

Has little to do with anyone elses budget. Only you can decide what you can afford. As for myself, I can`t count on fingers of both hands the BD & Skill saws and drills I have owned. For one thing they were cheap and no great loss when they slipped off a roof and either passed or failed the Bounce Test.

But I had a change of heart about 10 yrs ago, anf found that I when I pay more for tools than I can justify at my skill level. I take better care of them.
Not once has my Porter Cable saw been lowered off a roof by the cord:eek:

[Bob Nieman]

I pay a lot of attention to the "Best Value" in magazine reviews. It has been a slow start, but I finally feel like I can start doing some stuff. I *love* my Ridgid Table saw. I don't see how spending more would have been a good idea (my shop is VERY small and the mobile base is VERY nice). I'd like to try some better tools though before I consider upgrading

I splurged on a PC router after my 20 year old Craftsman wouldn't hold a bit in place anymore and it has been heavenly (although reviews of that particular model are mixed). Next up to upgrade will be a jig saw (my old one is useless) or RO sander (it is a "best value", but there has got to be a better one out there). I still have to spend money on stuff that isn't fun--a dust controller (once I figure out where to put it and how to wire it separately) and some wet stones, more clamps, lighting, maybe a floor. (I hated having to buy a dishwasher last weekend, I could have used the money for so many other things)

There are two harbor freight machines in my shop, a bench top drill press that was a "gift" and a mortiser I got at an auction and haven't tried to use yet. I already know I will want to replace both, but not until the right projects come along. I keep showing my wife projects from this forum and telling her that "I could do that, if only I had a ...."
I just need to finish a few more projects with what I have and maybe that will work...

[Maurice Ungaro]

Everyone has made some good points. Most of all, I'd like to state that "Best" may be best for YOU at the time. My first chisels were a set of Marples Blue Chips...Still have them, still use them. I have a couple of Swedish steel chisels that I really like, but the old Marples still do what I bought them to do.

I have a 14" bandsaw, and it's a dream..Sure, there are larger saws out there, but this was absolutely the best one I could afford.

[Steve Cox]

It all depends on what you're going to do. Having said that, my personal philosophy is to buy professional quality tools though probably not "the best". Case in point: I have a 6" Bosch RO sander that I use with a Bosch hose and a Shop-Vac with a HEPA filter for dust control. Overkill for some people but cheap compared to Festool. It does a very good job for me though. I started out with a Craftsman and when it bit the dust I bought the Bosch. After my first set of tools (Skil, Craftsman etc.) I have never bought one with the intention of replacing it. I have purchased used, reconditioned and closeout tools to get ones I could afford. I research the devil out of every purchase to make sure I don't make mistakes (and I still do:mad: ). IMHO It is always better to buy more tool than you need today knowing that it won't need to be replaced later (want is another story:rolleyes: ). My first true woodworking project was a pair of Shaker end tables done in quilted maple. I had two Disston saws (crosscut and rip) that I bought for $10 at an antique store, a set of Buck Bros chisels (cheap ones), a sander, a plane, a planer, and a backsaw. Took a while but I got it done. Boy did I learn a lot during that project! It still amazes me when I look at them today. I gues the point of all this is that it's true, buy the best you can afford, it saves money later on. But it's also true, you don't need the best in order to do excellent work.

[Steve Aiken]

I like Jeff's advice:
So I guess what I am saying is this. Get the tool that will do the job, you will have to learn the best technique for the job, because the cheaper tools are less forgiving then my dj20. Once you decided this hobby is for you, upgrade your tools one by one and get 1/2 the value out of the old ones.

I started into WW'g seriously 4 years ago. I got a night job delivering pizza to save up some money for tools. I built my first project with solid pine, surfaced on all 4 sides at the mill, since I didn't have a planer or jointer. Ouch $$$. I gradually bought the tools I needed, and I was fortunate enough to find quality used tools at a fraction of the price of the new glossy tools. Delta Cabinet saw; Delta planer; Delta benchtop jointer; Craftsman benchtop drill press.

Although I'd have loved to buy the shiny new "Best Tool" as pronounced by the forums and magazine editors, this strategy allowed me to accummulate the tools I needed in a fraction of the time, with a fraction of the money. Because I bought pre-owned excellent quality tools, I have the best of both worlds "quality" and "inexpensive."

I was not able to find some of the tools I needed in the used market. I bought a 10" Makita LS1013 and a Porter-Cable pancake compressor/ air nailer combo kit. Earlier on, I bought the Porter-cable biscuit joiner new. In these cases where I designated money on the new tool, I did alot of research and picked the "Best Value" tool. I would have liked to have the Lamelo BJ, but the Porter-Cable gave me most of the features, fit and finish for a price I could afford.

Same with the hand tools....veritas block plane, Marples Blue chisel set. I bought a Dowlmax jig when I needed a really good doweling jig.

I also bought some cheap tools. I bought a Canadian Tire brand cordless drill. Big mistake, cause it fried up just after the 3year warranty and I couldn't even get parts for it--but I probably got my money's worth out of it. I couldn't have afforded anything better at the time, so I'd have had to bore holes with a brace-bit otherwise. Later, I replaced it with a Ryobi cordless drill. Not the best, but what I could afford for this tool.

I've picked up a few tools at yard sales and flea markets.

Sorry for the ramble. My point is that when you are cash-flow-challenged, you need to use many strategies to get "the best tools you can afford." The tools you end up with will change through the years.

I'm hoping and dreaming that I will be able to upgrade some of my tools through the coming years as the odd bonus or tax refund comes along, but in the meanwhile I will goat over my modest collection. Most importantly I will keep using these tools and learning from all of you so I will become a true craftsman.

Steve

[CPeter James]

I have lots of nice commercial grade tools. I pick them up when someone else is upgrading. They may require a little cleaning up and may a new bearing or belt and they are as good as new and maybe even better than new as it might be a good made in USA model. I usually pay less than 50 cents on the dollar cost of new. Sometimes there are some dents and scratches, but that doesn't affect the way that they work ( and it makes strangers think that you are an old hand at this).

CPeter

[Lee DeRaud]

I freely admit I'm of two (or maybe several) minds on this subject. On the one hand, I don't mind spending big bucks on something that I want and know I'll use, like the laser. On the other hand, it annoys me to no end to spend a fraction of that amount of money for something I wouldn't use on a regular basis.
The current symptom of that syndrome is, I'd really like to have a decent bandsaw to resaw thin inlay stock to feed to the laser...but it would probably only get turned on once a month or so to make stock for the next batch of plaques or boxes or whatever. Yes, I know there are a bunch of neat things you can do with a bandsaw besides resawing, but I don't want to get into the mode of doing project X instead of project Y just because it keeps some expensive tool busy so I won't feel like I wasted money buying it. And on the third hand, I'm having trouble convincing myself that there is a machine that hits the overlap between what I want to do with it and my economic comfort zone.

What it comes down to is, I wish there was a local woodworking "hobby shop" where I could rent time on equipment that's either too expensive (or too big) for me to justify owning.

[John Bailey]

In most cases I do finish work with hand tools. So, the machines can be what I would call good "value." I would rather spend money on good hand tools. I would not want to waste money on the cheapest machines, however, I think the best and most expensive machines are for others. They won't make my woodworking any more enjoyable.

John

[Steve Rowe]

This may be a bit philosophical but, I think we all started woodworking with tools that were less than we wanted. I know I did but, we all have to start somewhere. About 26 years ago, I built my first project (outside of junior high school shop) with hand tools and Sears hand drill, router and belt sander in the kitchen and back porch of a townhouse. That project still sits in my family room today and is used daily. It is important to achieve quality woodworking and unless we just wish to be tool collectors, tools are just the means to achieve those results.

My advice is to not drop this very productive and educational hobby because of the perceived need to purchase only expensive tools. Purchase what you can afford and are willing to spend to enjoy your hobby. No hobby should ever stress you financially as that defeats the very purpose of it. As your skills, confidence, and love for woodworking grows you will likely replace the tools you have with better quality tools or tools of greater capacity and may even go through this cycle several times. Whatever you have in your shop, most people will look at what you accomplish with awe.
Steve

[Mark Singer]

You need to get good quality that so you will enjoy using the tool....pride of ownership....as in your work... Some tools are not really a good value...either oo expensive , they don't deliver or just junk.... SMC is a good source of input...I would ask about each individual purchase... I feel most of my tools exceed my abilities...that is good....I can grow into them...and continue to appreciate them...we are all learning. You don't want the tools to be the limiting factor in your work.

[Mike Cutler]

Zahid. It appears that your thread was just waiting for a resurgance.
Lots of good info and advice in this thread. I don't think I have anything to add that hasn't already been stated.
My tools, for the most part are middle of the road ,hobbiest quality. I like fiddlin' with stuff, and I have access to the materials and machinery to make a part if I need it, or modify a machine design inadequacy with little or no cash outlay so I don't need the "best" quality tool, but that's me.
I've always kind of believed, that as your experience rises you will better know what you actually need from a tool, and be able to select the most appropiate that you can afford, within reason. As your projects evolve and become more complex, or require a finer touch, this will also direct your selection of tools.
My latest project has involved a lot of "fine tuning" with hand tools, and mine are woefully inadequate, so it would appear that I'll be looking into handtools soon, especially good mortise and firmer chisel sets, a quality shoulder plane would be nice too. I actually found it relaxing to do the handwork this time around. I used to consider the 'neander stuff a necessary drudgery. Who knows, maybe I'm staring to mature a little bit. Next thing ya' know I'll be taking up golf :eek:
As of this point in my woodworking endeavor, I'd rather spend my money on the wood and finishing supplies. and actually make something. It's like MJ said "Just Do It"
My thoughts and ramblings on the subject. Thanks for the thread Zahid

[Hank Knight]

Zahid, one bit of advice I can offer that hasn't been mentioned yet is to avoid spending money on gadgets. Woodworking lends itself to gadgetry - there's a slick, whiz-bang gadget that's a guaranteed shortcut for almost any task you can imagine - for a price; and they all look wonderful and useful in the store. I've succumbed to gadget temptation more times than I care to count. When I look around my shop, it's the gadgets that lie around unused and take up space. The basic, time-tested tools get used every day. My advice is to stick to the basics and learn to do it the right way. Later, after you've learned and honed your skills, you may find a gadget that will really prove useful. Buy it then. Meanwhile, dont' waste your money on things you'll use once or twice and then throw in a drawer for the rest of eternity. Buy the real stuff, and buy the best you can afford. It doesn't have to be the best made, but quality tools do make a difference in both your results and your enjoyment of the work.
Good luck. You've embarked on a wonderful journey. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

[Jay Knoll]

I'm with Hank on the gadget comment, except for honing guides. I recently attended a wood working school, the instructor insisted that we learn how to sharpen chisels without using a honing guide. My gut said that was nonsense, but since I was the newbie and he was the expert I went along with the drill, spending HOURS flattening and sharpening chisels. Never again, once I left the school I went out and bought a guide. This is a gaget that is worth its weight in gold!

Jay

[Hank Knight]

Honing guides are "tools," buy a good one. ;)

[Joe Lenox]

I am new to this forum, but like everyone else I started making sawdust with the bare mininum in tools. Over the past 35 years I have acculmated quite an array of power tools and hand tools, some I purchased new and some used. I don"t know if they have garage sales in your area, but I have bought many a tool (almost new) for very little money at these sales.About 30 years ago one of the first new tools I bought was a radial arm saw that I still have today. This past summer I hade to enlarge my shop just to fit all the tools i have acculmated over the years.....bottom line take your time....it will come!:)