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Vince Shriver
11-08-2007, 5:33 PM
I'll be trying my hand at dovetailing the corners of my new workbench. The wood is 1-3/4" beech and I'm in a quandry what saw to purchase after looking at the Lie Nielson catalogue. A dovetail saw would be too shallow a cut I think, and frankly I don't know enough about the differences among the others (carcus, tenon, large carcus, lg tenon, progressive, etc) to make a choice. I know I need a rip saw for this project, but which one? Any suggestions from you accomplished sawyers would be most appreciated. Thanks, V.

Bill McDermott
11-08-2007, 5:55 PM
Vince, The 80/20 rule applies here. I started my "good saw" collection with the LN 12" tenon saws, one rip and one XC. They cut 3" deep and have served very well. That pair has cut lots of large and small joints. Always a joy to use. I can always move up in size to my old panel saws.

More recently I added a dovetail saw (Adria). DT saws are limited to fine work - but wow! does mine work well when I want a fine line in exactly the right place. It's also nice when fitting small pieces. The fine teeth and very thin kerf with a DT saw give excellent precision when there's not too much sawdust to be made.

If doing it again, I'd do the same thing over and get the tenon saws first.

PS - I also have my original cheapo backsaw from the hardware store. Its handy when I am concerned about damaging the good saws.

PPS - Make a bench hook your first project, if you don't already use one. It's part of my "good saw" package.

Preston Baxter
11-08-2007, 10:28 PM
I've used three brands of backsaws. The first I had were PAX brand and were good quality English saws. I bought a set of 4 Lie Nielsen Saws and sold the PAX set to a friend. However, after using the LNs on a few different projects, I decided I liked the PAX better, and wished I had them back. I found that the LN blades were too thin and kind of wavy compared to the PAX. Turn one upside down and sight down the length. The thin blade is glued into a milled brass back. Maybe the saws I had were milled a little oversize. The dovetail saw was not too bad, but the tenon and carcass saws were. I ended up selling all four saws.

I didn't get back into Woodworking for a while since we had a new addition to the family, so when I needed to get a new pair of saws, I didn't have much cash to spend. I ended up getting the Paragon brand dovetail and tenon saws from Garrett Wade. I was presently surprised. Both have good stiff, straight blades and a folded over tensioned, brass back. They are not as pretty as the LN or PAX, but the handles feel just as comfortable as the LN. I refiled the dovetail to a rip, and it saws dovetails beautifully.

I'll probably refile the tenon saw to rip and see how it cuts in cross grain. Before, I used dedicated crosscut and Rip saws, but I'm going to try the Continental tradition of rip only, which means fewer saws needed. I tried Tage Frid's crosscut test with a 6 tpi bowsaw carefully jointed and filed rip, and surprisingly it doesn't tear out bad at all on seasoned hardwoods.

Three sizes of saws are probably all thats necessary for most work:
1) Dovetail (Backsaw) 8-10" 15-20 tpi
2) Tenon (Backsaw) 12-14" 10-14 tpi
3) Panel(Carpenter Style) or Bowsaw (Wooden Frame) 18-26" 6-9 tpi

Some woodworkers of continental tradition such as Tage Frid and Frank Klausz generally only use(d) two saws, the Dovetail and Bowsaw. The English/American tradition favors several sizes of saws both rip and crosscut.

Pam Niedermayer
11-09-2007, 5:57 AM
100 years ago I cut dovetails with a Tyzack back saw. They were perfect joints from the get go. I now use Japanese saws (strongly recommend the Professional Japanese dozuki LV sells), but basically the cuts are so trivial that most any saw will do. In fact, one of the best ways to learn how to saw is to use a saw way oversized for the job.

That said, I had the opportunity to use the straight handled LN dovetail saw, it was as perfect as my dozuki, great saw.

Pam

James Mittlefehldt
11-09-2007, 10:29 AM
If you want a dovetail saw to start then I would also recomend the Pax that Preston suggests. I bought mine from Lee Valley, I have used it and love it, it seems to strike the right balance between thinness of blade and strength, it also has a blade that is 2 1/4 inches deep from the bottom of the brass back, so it would do what you need and it is filed rip.

It is the first real dovetail saw I purchased and I don't plan on replacing it anytime soon, unless I consider a Wenzloff, now there is an idea.

Ruston Hughes
11-09-2007, 10:39 AM
The terminology can be a little confusing (dovetail, carcass, tenon, etc.) but the basic rule is the size of the saw should match the size of the joint or cut (i.e. small saws for small joints and larger saws for larger joints).

The confusion comes in (I believe) because the saw names (dovetail, tenon) are associated with the type of joint and not the size of the joint. For a typical dovetail (thin stock, short cuts) a small saw with fine teeth is the right choice. However, for the dovetail on your workbench apron, it's probably not the right choice. IMHO you'll need a larger saw with coarser teeth to make that cut efficiently.

So don't think about the type of joint being cut, think about the type of cut being made (rip vs. crosscut) and the size of the stock, then use the most appropriate saw for that particular task.

Here's the basic set of saws I'm using. Others will have differing opinions based on there experience but these saws work well for me at my current experience level.

small joinery: 8" backsaws, 15 ppi (one rip, one crosscut)
larger cabinet joinery: 14" backsaws: 11 ppi (one rip, one crosscut)
big joints and stock dimensioning: 26" handsaws (8ppi cross, 7ppi rip, 5 ppi rip)

David Weaver
11-09-2007, 10:41 AM
If you don't know that you don't like japanese saws (i.e., you haven't tried them), then no matter what you get as a western saw, you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't get one good quality machine-made japanese dozuki.

I use the Gyochuko dozuki for dovetails. I've tried western saws, but I can't cut as accurately with them. I think the saw plate on it is 0.012" or something - and the resulting kerf is just large enough that you can get a fret saw down it.

I use the gyochuko brand only because it's what's avaiable locally to me (and available everywhere else, too) which makes replacement blades easy (I haven't needed one yet).

I have some Disston Back saws, which have a 0.025" plate according to my calipers, which is thicker than LN and thinner than some of the new lower-priced western back saws.

After getting 4 old back saws with one of them being decent enough to use without repair, I wouldn't recommend getting them off of ebay or on any dealer's site unless you trust the person you're buying from. People seem to have a differing opinion of what "straight" is, and your chance of getting one straight with teeth that have been jointed properly with each sharpening is probably 1 in 3 or 4.

The one Disston saw that I do have that's in good useable shape feels better than most new stuff, though. I guess all of the bent old ones will just become practice fodder for sharpening because it really wasn't worth the cost or aggravation to ship them back to the sellers.

Don C Peterson
11-09-2007, 11:28 AM
Since nobody has suggested it yet...

I can only speak to my own experience but I did not have good luck with the various japanese saws, particularly when cutting thick hardwoods. When I finally bought a LN dovetail saw it opened my eyes to the western style saws and I haven't looked back. I couldn't justify the expense of buying a complete set of LN saws though. So I bought my first vintage Disston. It was at that point that the slope gave way and I was in free-fall...

I now have a growing collection of western hand saws both backsaws and not... I have purchased four back saws, two 12" saws, and two 20"-24" saws. One of each is sharpened for crosscuting and one of each is sharpened for ripping. I bought all four on ebay for about as much as I would have for a single LN, or similar quality new tenon saw.

After spending some time learning how to sharpen and tune them up, these saws are a wonder to behold. They cut straight, right to the line, they never wander in the cut particularly from front to rear in thick stock like I always got with the Japanese saws, they feel great in my hand and I just get a kick out of using 100 year old saws that with proper care will last for another 100 years or more.

Marcus Ward
11-09-2007, 1:37 PM
If you're not real good with hand saws yet, learning how to do the dovetails on your workbench is someplace where you don't want to learn you don't have control enough to cut straight. I learned that lesson the hard way. I ended up cutting some of the dovetails with a handsaw (fill gaps with epoxy) and some with the band saw (fit perfectly). I figure maybe trying to learn how to cut dovetails on something that large was a bad idea, eh? Not to be heretical, but a band saw might be a better trick until you are more prepared (assuming you're not, if you are, please ignore me.) :)

David Weaver
11-10-2007, 8:57 AM
To reiterate the comment above - bandsaw with a meat and fish blade is a good way to go for a beginner. Your cuts will be square to the line and since the meat and fish blades don't have much set, they shouldn't wander a lot.

David Beeler
11-10-2007, 9:10 AM
Take a look at these also:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=GT-DSAW9.XX and http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/index.html

Mark Singer
11-10-2007, 9:39 AM
I use both Western and Japanese saws. I think it is good to try both. The advantage to the Japanese saws is the smaller kerf. If you stay on the waste side with a western saw it is just as good. It is kind of like making a sketch with a pencil or a pen.....if you can sketch either will work well and if you can't the best pen or pencil will not help. Practice is important. Personal preference is also very important. You need to try both to decide.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/mSinger/z_art/teakSofa/0_img/IMG_5611.jpg