Tools from the Borg

[mike wacker]

There seems to be an Urban ledgend out there that there same model TableSaw you could buy at the Borg is not the same quality as the Saw with the same model number from a "tool store" (Woodcraft or Rockler for example). Does anyone here have any concrete evidence/knowledge to confirm or dispell this thought.

For example I can go to the borg and buy a Delta Contractors Saw model 36-980 with the T2 Fence for $549.99. The local Rockler shop has it for $599.99 I think I am willing to spend the extra $50 at Rockler just for the knowledge and attention when I walk in there. One needs to occasionally put their $$ where their mouth is. Regardless I am interested in any solid back graound on whether this is a economic advantage that the Borg has or it is really a lesser quality tool with the same Model number?

[Bill Huber]

I really think that has to be an Urban legend when you think about it.

If the model numbers are the same there is no way for a manufacturer could keep track of which was made for what store. Now if the model number had a letter added to the end of it or something like that it would be different.

I do know that there are items made by the same company with the same model number that are packaged different for different stores, but they are still the same unit.

Now I do agree with you on paying a little more for the service you get and the knowledge you will get from some of the woodworking stores.

[James Carmichael]

I doubt if there's any difference in quality. But for the extra $50, you get more in the way of after-sale service than a refund or exchange.

[Gary Keedwell]

Years ago when I couldn't see the trees from the forest ( I still occasionally have that problem;) ), I would have purchased from the Borg.
Today, I will go out of my way to support a dedicated woodworking store, even at the higher price tag.
Gary

[glenn bradley]

I'm goin' with Urban Legend here. As to whether or not to buy there, depends on the store manager. My two local HD's stink but the guy that runs the Lowe's down the street is great. I guess I should add that HD's everyday price on Jorgie's is usually better than other's sales prices and Lowe's clearance table is a boon to my shop.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It'd cost more to make a special model even if they were making it cheaper. Tooling for just about any manufacturing process is ghastly expensive.

[Bill White]

That is somewhat true for some appliances, plumbing fixtures, etc., but not likely for tools.
Bill

[Dave Dionne]

Now here is a twist, I have a couple of friends that are plumbers and they don't know each other (unless from the secret plumbers club) but they have both told that the faucets that you get at a BORG that is the same model as say at a plumbing supply store may be cheaper (at the Borg) BUT they are not the same quality. Where the one from the plumbinf store will be brass/ceramic inside the Borg ones will have allot more plastic.

I have never bought to identical faucets to see but these guys and I go a long ways back.

Just my thoughts

Dave

[Rich Dorffer]

That is somewhat true for some appliances, plumbing fixtures, etc., but not likely for tools.
Bill

It is true for certain tools as well. I used to know of a specific example where the tool at Home Depot was specified with plastic parts versus metal parts in the standard model. The tool itself had the exact same box, part number, etc. But, the tell tale sign was the UPC number was different.

I believe that their buying power is the major factor in their prices, but they can and do specify design changes for certain items they sell.

Regards,

Rich

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
I've hear different variations of the same theme for years.
It's probalby a half truth at best.

[scott spencer]

There'd have to be some difference in model number to be tracked....even if it's just a suffix or prefix change.

ie: model 36-980"a"

[Ken Fitzgerald]

There would have to be a difference of some kind in the model # or the SKU number....otherwise how would you track it.....know which to send to whom?

[Howard Acheson]

>> There seems to be an Urban ledgend out there that there same model TableSaw you could buy at the Borg is not the same quality as the Saw with the same model number from a "tool store"

As far as I know, that would be against the law. Same part number, same item.

However, Many large purchasers can have special packaging for their outlets. This might include an upgraded blade or some other "added value". This package could have a different number for the package but include the same exact part numbered items inside. That's marketing.

[Greg Cuetara]

This is not exactly a tool but I do know that when John Deere started selling their tractors at the BORG it was being sold under the same exact model number as the dealerships but it was a far inferior tractor. The dealerships would not even touch the original tractors which were being sold at the BORG. They had so many problems with them that they had to go back to one model which both the BORG and the dealerships sold so now they are the same tractor but originally they had were two different tractors with the same model number and same outside design. The only way to tell them apart was the serial number. Not sure how delta works but I wouldn't be suprised if there were a few inferior parts in the one's being sold at the BORG....the other explanation is that they can buy so many that they get a better deal than the woodworking shops.

[Ken Deckelman]

I know its works this way with electronic products as well...
I was researching Sony 50" LCD's tv' last year. and the local BJ's Wholesale Club had one on sale, but trying to find info on the exact model # always led the search back to BJ's. The # could not be found on Sony's website.

[Gary Keedwell]

I know its works this way with electronic products as well...
I was researching Sony 50" LCD's tv' last year. and the local BJ's Wholesale Club had one on sale, but trying to find info on the exact model # always led the search back to BJ's. The # could not be found on Sony's website.
Amen to that:eek: I about went nuts trying to find the # for Sony 46" HDTV. Costco & BJ's have their own number. I've had it now for a few months and love it.;)
Gary

[Bill Wyko]

All I can say is that I've had great service with Jet/powermatic service. I typically don't buy products without a solid reputation. You want to be sure the company selling the tool will be around as long as you plan on keeping the tool. IMHO:)

[mike wacker]

Bill,

I was specifically refering to a Delta built machine.

[Bill Wyko]

I've always had great luck with delta as well. Never had to contact their service department though. I guess thats a good thing too.

[John Shuk]

I don't think that that is true but I'm lucky enough to have a great tool store local to me. Lots of people buy machines from The Tool Nut via the website but I get to peruse and fondle. They usually give the best price I can find but it would be worth paying more.

[Tom Veatch]

I really think that has to be an Urban legend when you think about it.

If the model numbers are the same there is no way for a manufacturer could keep track of which was made for what store. Now if the model number had a letter added to the end of it or something like that it would be different.

I do know that there are items made by the same company with the same model number that are packaged different for different stores, but they are still the same unit.

Now I do agree with you on paying a little more for the service you get and the knowledge you will get from some of the woodworking stores.

There is one way that the manufacturer can differentiate between two units with the same model number and that is by serial number.

It is possible to assign production serial blocks to the production run of a model, associate a particular unit's production bill of material to it's serial number, and maintain the same model number all units. However that introduces much more complexity and expense in managing configuration control, production bills of material, process standards and control, and spares support, just to mention a few of the manufacturing processes that would be affected.

I suspect - without any conclusive data to support the opinion other than experience with just that process in aircraft production - that the increased production cost would wipe out any potential savings to the customer. Therefore, I tend to doubt that units with the same model number are significantly and intentionally different from each other.

Edit: That does not mean that a complete production run of a particular model couldn't or wouldn't have engineering changes incorporated at some block points in the run. But, incorporating changes in a production run is a very expensive process.

[John Durscher]

A friend of mine worked for a small US tool company (best not mention the type because the market is small - so I'll call it a widget). In any case, they made widgets under their own label and under the Craftsman Label (among others). When they first started working with Sears the tools were identical, except for the label. Sears put a lot of pressure on their company every time the contract was renewed to cut their prices. Naturally, quality suffered. You still really couldn't tell the difference between the tool made under their own label and the Craftsman label from the outside. However, the guts of the widget that were put on the Craftsman version were inferior to the guts of the widgets that they put their own name on.

I would have to guess that if this sort of thing is done with inexpensive (less than $20) hand tools it is probably done with the high dollar tools as well. HD, Lowes, Sears, Walmart and the like all have tremendous buying power and don't seem to be afraid to use it to keep their costs down and their profits up (good for shareholders, maybe not so good for customers)

John

[stacey martin]

I bought my delta saw at borg over ten years ago and no troubles
STACEY

[Craig Moulton]

+1 for urban legend. It'd make parts support a lot more complicated for one, and for another, that's exactly the type of thing I'd want to hear repeated often if I ran a small shop.

That said, I try to shop small local business whenever possible.

[Don Eddard]

I don't believe it applies to Delta tablesaws, but some tools like chainsaws and lawnmowers definitely have consumer lines that are sold at the Borg that are inferior to the models sold by independent dealers. Husky chainsaws at the Borg are not the same as you get from a Husky dealer. Same with Toro lawnmowers. I'm pretty sure both companies use different model numbers for the different lines, though.

As I said, I don't think Delta tablesaws are in this same category, so the Borg and Rockler ones are probably identical. Only you know if the extra $50 is worth it. For me, I think it would be.

[Richard Wagner]

And we are certain that these items purchased, in mass quantities, from somewhere overseas are actually identical to those items with the same numbers attached as to those that were produced in the USA.

Same quality metal, same gauge steel, quality bolts and nuts, no formaldehyde in the wire insulation and sells for much, much less?

OK. If you say so. I hope you are happy with yours.

[Bob Slater]

Weber BBQ's bought at the Borg have different sized grills than the same model bought at a BBQ dealer. Does Weber make any tools ? <G>

[Ben Cadotte]

Actually I think the opposite is more true. The BORGS / large retailers ask for their own model numbers. They do this so they can guarantee prices vs. competitors, but not actually have too!

I most recently ran into this when buying a dryer. The exact same dryer at Best Buy, Lowes, and HD all had different #'s. What was different were the last 3 numbers of the real model number (on box not on front of the unit). All the units had the same basic model number. But the 3 numbers after the - were different. I asked Best Buy to match the Lowes price and they said it was a different unit. If you go to manufacturers web site only the first part of the model number is used.

I have also noticed this with electronics and other big ticket items. Same items. Same main part number on component or front of box. But when you look at the full part number its slightly different.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Mike,

Maybe the easier question to ask is, "Should I buy this saw for $550?". I'd say, unless you are somewhere where there is no used market for tools, no. That's just not a great price on that saw. It's a good saw, but not worth that much. A few days ago, another creeker got the saw without the fence on clearance at Lowe's for $175 (I believe he had to talk the manager down in price, but you can do that...). I bought the same saw with T2 fence on clearance at my local Rockler for $399. And these (or their Jet-clones) regularly pop up on the used market for <$250.

[Eric Roberge]

I can say for fact that Delta and PC/Dewalt do not separate their goods in the Distribution Center. They are a client of mine and I walk the million plus square foot DC weekly. They ship to hardware stores, HD, Lowes, and smaller wood shops. They do not have a separate storage areas for different retailers. I have heard the same thought that the quality was different, but once I was able to see it first hand, I now believe it is urban legend.

[Bob Childress]

A few days ago, another creeker got the saw without the fence on clearance at Lowe's for $175 (I believe he had to talk the manager down in price, but you can do that...). I bought the same saw with T2 fence on clearance at my local Rockler for $399. And these (or their Jet-clones) regularly pop up on the used market for <$250.

Yes, but in late 2007, when Mike asked, was it a good price? ;)

If he ain't got a saw by now, he's probably not in the market any more.:p

[Ron Bontz]

HMMMM. Sounds like a research project to me. Anybody need 2 faucets?:D
I have often found that the prices in the Borgs is not the lowest out there anyway. There is a whole lot of free shipping going on right now and after sale support is important at times. In 25 years or so I don't think I have ever needed the warranty on a high quality tool though. The mid range tools are another story IMHO.

[Paul Dombroski]

I know the story about the faucets being true. A friend works at a plumbing supply and when the local Lowes opened he took the model numbers of Kohler faucets which were on display. He then ran them through the plumbing supply computer...they didn't exist.

[Mark Bolton]

I can also back up the faucet fact. The home centers most always incorporate plastic popup assemblies, plastic valve bodies, etc.

I have personally seen this happen first hand. I have quoted fixture allowances to customers on new homes and had them want to purchase the fixtures themselves thinking they can get a better price. All too often they show up with the faucet saying "see,.. you quoted me 250.00 and I got it for 199.00 at Lowes". Immediately upon handing me the box I can tell by the weight that there is a problem. The body of the faucet itself will be markedly lighter due to plastic and with a lavatory faucet the entire box will be lighter due to a plastic popup assembly.

Most recently I had a customer back door me on a Kohler lav faucet and actually thought it was funny that they had under cut my quoted price. I opened the box and showed them the plastic popup assembly and with two hands grabbed one hand at the top of the popup and the other at the bottom to simulate what happens when you tighten the nut on installation. I could torque the entire popup to the extent where I could simply have folded it into a pretzel.

The smile quickly fell from the customers face. This has been getting worse and worse with Kohler since their merge with Sterling.

The worst part about this whole scenario is that when the home centers demand hits a certain level the manufacturers begin to drop the quality from the overall line as maintaining multiple lines is costly. This denies one the ability to "choose" quality or junk. We are left with the only option of eating what is fed.

Mark

[Wade Lippman]

For example I can go to the borg and buy a Delta Contractors Saw model 36-980 with the T2 Fence for $549.99. The local Rockler shop has it for $599.99 I think I am willing to spend the extra $50 at Rockler just for the knowledge and attention when I walk in there. One needs to occasionally put their $$ where their mouth is.

I am glad your local Rockler is worth paying 10% extra. I find them completely useless, but also annoying. At least the Borg isn't annoying.

(actually we don't have a local Rockler, but the local Woodcraft...)

[Larry Edgerton]

The worst part about this whole scenario is that when the home centers demand hits a certain level the manufacturers begin to drop the quality from the overall line as maintaining multiple lines is costly. This denies one the ability to "choose" quality or junk. We are left with the only option of eating what is fed.

Mark

This is the part of the equation that is really troubling, the basterdization of product lines and the disappearance of professional quality tools and fixtures.

Look what has happened to the Porter Cable line since they started selling in the Borg. They are junk, except for the few holdovers from the old days. As in a recent discussion, the discontinuation of the PC 310. There is a reason they could not sell it at the popular price point, it was a better tool made to service professionals that use it every day. The Bosch Colt is a joke compared to the 310, and will not run for years and years in a work enviroment.

Look at the rediculous miter saws they are selling at the Borg, and they have now become the norm, and the true professional saws disappear. I'm sorry, you have no need for a lazer and digital readout, its just gimmicks with no quality.

These are the reasons I do not buy at chains, the way they change the market to suit their bottom line, and in the process compromise quality for those of us that care about such things.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Yes, but in late 2007, when Mike asked, was it a good price? ;)

If he ain't got a saw by now, he's probably not in the market any more.:p

Aww...now I feel stupid. Who ressurected this dead thread, anyways? :D

[Tony Bilello]

the main body and thus the same model number. The differences may be in the 'other stuff'.
I bought my Delta table saw about 2 years or less ago. The Borg wanted about $200 less than a local tool company. I bought it at the tool store. The difference.....all of the top was cast iron at the tool store. The Borg main top with the blade section was cast iron but the extension wings that came with the Borg saw were stamped steel. Also, the Borg would have to gave ordered the 52" bar at an aditional cost. It was standard at the tool store.
Sometimes the model is the same, but packaged differently. However, I am not completely sold on the idea that the Borg saw is the same.

[Dave Lehnert]

well it's not tools but pet supplies and know of a company that makes a plastic dog dish for a large chain thiner than every other store. Same model number and UPC is attached. Info came from the owner of the company himself when I was talking to him.

[Brian Peters]

Nothing the borgs sell HD especially are designed to last. Even the sand paper they sell is cheap and doesn't last long. It's cheaper $$ wise but you get what you pay for. I remember hearing a manager tell a friend of mine and I one time off the record that if it lasts a long time they won't stock it - their job is to get you back in there purchasing again. And their paints and finishes? Don't get me started. Junk is hardly the word to use. Power tools - its an iffy area, they clearly sell cheaper made tools like Ryobi and lower end models of appliance manufactors but you have to be your own judge. If I can make one suggestion or recommendation I would say don't buy anything at the borgs that are retaped, I mean check the box. If it was opened before and the seal is broken its likely a return and someone was utilizing their "free rental service." :D

[Eric Roberge]

Bottom line is, unless you can afford Festool,(them too for all I know) every company out there is looking to cut corners now. Everything is plastic. I agree with Larry, PC has gone way downhill. Their new line of tools is very B&D looking (cheep homeowner looks).
Like most of you, I'm a tool fanatic, but the quality isn't there like it used to be. We're stuck with what is in front of us. I read a lot of posts in these forums where people buy from Amazon...Do you think the quality is better with Amazon over the local BORG? I don't, we're all just looking for the best price. Free shipping and no sales tax is very inviting. I don't think that it's a case of "you get what you pay for" (unless you shop HF) but more a case of these are our options. I can't afford a $1000 Festool router, but I can swing a higher end PC or Dewalt one. It’s a crap shoot on the life of the unit, but I think that most of us fall into this category.

I’m with Dan,...who brought this thread up again anyway?????? Time to put it back to bed;)

[James Ireland]

Urban Legend: I googled this about 3months ago and found it on snopes.com, but can't find it now.

[Marty Paulus]

well it's not tools but pet supplies and know of a company that makes a plastic dog dish for a large chain thiner than every other store. Same model number and UPC is attached. Info came from the owner of the company himself when I was talking to him.

Are the dishes injection molded or vac formed? If they are IM they have different tooling. Depending on volume it would be difficult to justify the new tool vs. part savings.

[Jerome Hanby]

I don't think there is any case (other than labeling mistakes) where two products with identical manufacturer part numbers are going to be different (other than their date of manufacturer and any engineering changes that took place between the the dates). Now there are definitely many cases where the same manufacturer will release multiple products whose descriptions make them sound identical where there is a quality difference between the models. I specifically ran into this with Sony equipment from a dedicated A/V store vs seemingly identical equipment from a big box electronics store. One I got the technical specs for each model and compared them, I saw that the big box models were not as spiffy as the ones from the A/V store.

[Daniel Kennedy]

I think this is an important topic which people should be aware of. I wish I knew of this a few years ago before I fell victim to this sort of misleading packaging. I know that each manufacturer is different and will approach this a different way, however I know that the BORGs will specify a price point for a manufacturer to meet for a specific product. In the manufacturing process bearings can be replaced with less expensive bushings. That is one example, however there are other areas that can be replaced with less costly less robust components that do not require a major manufacturing change.
My first personal experience with this concept came with the purchase of a grill. I bought it at HD. Within a short period of time the burners were not usable. I called the customer service to get replacement parts. Although the model number was exactly the same, they could tell me that I bought it at HD by the serial number. They told me that certain components that are sold on the HD models are made of less robust components, the burners being one of them. I ordered the OEM spec model with no problems since.
My second experience came as I discussed lawn tractors with a friend who owns a small engine repair business. He told me about some of the specific places bearings are replaced with bushings on lawn tractors and some of the places bushings are left out all together in the BORG models. I find that the lawn tractors and outdoor power tool market at least has different suffixes on the model number to differentiate the BORG models from the others. I do however believe that you would be hard pressed to find literature that discusses the differences in specifications between these models.

[Gene E Miller]

Greetings & Salutations,

This is a similar situation but is something I have first hand knowledge of. When I was driving a truck long haul the company I hauled for had several major accounts with retail outlets such as sears.

One of the items we hauled was appliances such as washers and dryers so we would go to a plant that built them to pick up a load and one of those plants was Whirlpool.

Once there we would give a pickup up number and they would stage our product which in the case of washers was about 80 units. They would line them up on the shipping dock and all of them would be in exact packaging. The shipping foreman would then go along the back of the crates and punch open a perforated section and then depending on what brand the invoice called for would reach in and place the appropriate name sticker on the washer, Kenmore, Maytag, Whirlpool or GE, and they would then load the truck.

All these units would go to the same Sears warehouse and get unloaded.

There was no checking of serial numbers or such only the application of the correct name tag and then a box full of the proper instruction booklets that went to sears.

I personally hauled dozens of load just like this in the 16 yrs I drove.

So this is more than likely what is being done with the tools going to the Borg's.

Gene

[Peter Quinn]

I have a grill with the same situation. Made by Vermont Castings, very reputable stove and grill company, sold their products through the orange Borg for several seasons before they stopped as they felt the lower quality product was sullying their good reputation. I had to get a few replacement parts, called the manufacturer, they knew right away I had an HD special. Interesting conversation there.

I had a good friend bring a DeWalt drill to a DeWalt service net factory repair facility (purchased at borg), they knew immediately by looking at the serial number that it was a HD tool, told him to bring it back, demand another.

My FIL is an electrician at a commercial laundry facility, uses a Milwaukee angle grinder regularly at work. When the VERY old one died, they bought a new one from the borg. It lasted only several days before failing. They took it apart to find nylon gears inside. Put it back together and brought it back, bought the same model from a supply house, took it apart on a slow day (it was working fine, they were just curious). What do you know, hardened steel gears in places the HD special had used nylon. Urban legend?

It has been my impression that not all manufacturers are willing to play the "bring it down to our standards" game, but some are and do. Which ones? Well i can think of at least two that do. However I have never had a problem with either Bosch or Makita tools purchased at the borg, perhaps they don't? It would get pretty expensive to buy one of each tool from two vendors, tear them down and find the differences but i wish someone would to end this debate. I have found so many products in the borg that look similar to what you might find in a commercial supply house but are in fact lower quality renditions that it is annoying. Screws, electrical parts, plywood, plumbing fixtures, long list. These things are easy to see, tools are harder to judge when the housing looks the same.