What Kind of Drawing/Drafting Tools?

[john lawson]

Started on a new project and found myself at my sons tiny drawing board. My back and neck ached after a few hours of this. I started looked in the classified for an old drafting machine/table and started wondering:

What do the "Creekers" use to draw up their plans? CAD or old style drafting tools like a T-Square and triangle, or Drafting Machines such as Vemco, Bruning or Mutoh?

If I go CAD how long is the learning curve? What is the best CAD program for Woodworking ( developed database of symbols and objects)? I like using a computer, but find that I am not very good at using one versus a pencil. It's like that commercial on TV when the young girl says to her dad, "your so analog". Her dad asks "Is that good"? She answers with a smile, "it's quaint".

So, are you analog or digital?

[Bill Ryall]

I am an engineer by trade, and as such, I have CAD programs on both my Mac and PC.

That being said, for woodworking, I EXCLUSIVELY use paper and pencil. T square and Triangles, no drafting machine. As a matter of fact, I was up late last night finishing up drawings for a built in I have been commissioned for.

After dealing with these durn computin' devices for a living, I want to come home and get away from them. I also find the "analog" drafting very relaxing.

Bill R.

[Ralph Steffey]

I am an engineer by trade, and as such, I have CAD programs on both my Mac and PC.

That being said, for woodworking, I EXCLUSIVELY use paper and pencil. T square and Triangles, no drafting machine. As a matter of fact, I was up late last night finishing up drawings for a built in I have been commissioned for.

After dealing with these durn computin' devices for a living, I want to come home and get away from them. I also find the "analog" drafting very relaxing.

Bill R.
Having been a contractor and cabinet maker for a great number of years I do not have the time to spend on a high teck drawing so I just do a rough draft with accurate measurements on a legal pad usually. This has always been good enuf for my customers and me.

[Todd Burch]

I use 3D modeling software called Sketchup, from @LAST Software. I use it to convey concepts and precise dimensions. I generate my cutlists from it as well. After watching the online videos (about 2 hours if you watch a lot of them), I was productive with the software immediately. I've used CAD, and there are a lot of product aspects you have to learn to be efficient, so a steep learning curve. With Sketchup, it is pretty intuitive. To extrude, you either push or pull a face of your geometry. When drawing lines, it has an inference engine that tells you when your lines meet other planes. Very cool. www.sketchup.com.

I will also add that I use it to "wow" clients. When I draw a cabinet for them, and can orbit and pan and zoom, all at once, they get pretty excited about it.

Yes, I start with a pencil and paper, but before I cut a piece of wood, I draw it in Sketchup, and many times it has saved my rear, as I find my design flaws digitally prior to wasting wood.

Todd.

(See my latest big drawing here: http://www.burchwoodusa.com/miscpix/Builtins/davidson.html)

[Bob Lasley]

John,

I used to loathe CAD programs for their complexity and much preferred a pencil. One of my coworkers use to kid me about my "AutoPencil" drawings. Thanks to a fellow woodworker, I now use DeltaCad. It is a simple easily learned program that will have you drawing in no time. While it doesn't have symbols for woodworking, it does have a decent little symbol library. You can download a trial version free. Purchase price is only about $40.

I still use sketches for most of my smaller projects and generate cad drawings for my larger ones. Like Todd, the drawings have saved me a time or two.

Bob

[Wes Bischel]

John,

I start on paper with sketches, then if needed, I go to CAD I grew up on AutoCAD (gee almost 20 years now :( ) but now use IntelliCAD - which is a cheap version of AutoCAD - virtual knock-off. CAD is easy to manipulate and change quickly versus paper, but many times it isn't necessary for the project. Many a project has been conceived on a scrap of paper.

Wes

[Mark Singer]

Hi John,
I am an Architect and start all of my designs on a sketch pad ...freehand. Once the design cocept is establisned ....I use a simple inexpensive program called Turbocad to insure scale , proportion , cutting list.etc. It is very easy to learn. You can probably find a version on Ebay for $50 or less!

[Jamie Buxton]

Todd --
I've been impressed by the Sketchup drawings you've posted on this board, so I checked out their web site. I stopped at the point they said "this is not CAD, it is a sketch program". I need CAD-like capabilities to make scaled shop drawings. When you mention you're conveying precise dimensions to clients, and generating cut lists, that sounds a lot like CAD. So what's going here?

Jamie

[Scott Coffelt]

I free hand draw on paper. If it is simpler designs (i.e., cabinets, tables, etc.) I use Microsoft Excel. From there build my own cut sheets and also sheet layouts. Its not fancy but it works for me.

I also from time to time find myself reverting back to Junior High principles and layout on graph paper. I have also used Visio, but I tend to use it for room layouts versus projects.

Someday I may try one of the CAD programs.

[Jim Becker]

For some time now, I've been using DesignCAD for project design and CutlistPlus for...well, cut lists...on larger project, like the kitchen. But I have to be honest, the application that Todd mentions, SketchUp has really caught my eye. I've been playing with it for a bit under the very generous evaluation licensing they have and frankly, may buy it. Most projects I really don't need every little dimension pre-figured...I want to be able to get the design done visually and play with it. That's one of the things that I'm finding interesting with SketchUp...the ablity to view the project in three dimensions from any and all angles. The downside is the cost...a bargan for what you get, but expensive for all but the most serious (or enamored) designers. Most of the low cost 2D CAD programs will work out fine for project design, but all of them do have a learning curve. (As does SketchUp...)

[Chris Padilla]

I like to use Punch! software. It really isn't a cabinet design program but it has aspects that allow you to do such things. It isn't perfect but after playing with it for a while, I've figure out most of the ways around the dumb things it does at times.

Since I am into home remodelling, I wanted something to aid me in any redesign of my house and this software from Punch! (Architectural Design Series 18, http://www.punchsoftware.com/index.htm) is just the ticket and works nicely for me. It was $140...$150 to my door IIRC.

[Todd Burch]

Jamie, Sketchup is not a CAD program, as they say. They distance themselves from being portrayed as a CAD program. CAD programs are very sophisticated, very complex, very powerful.

Sketchup is not spohisticated, not complex, yet it is very powerful. Most of the drawing that I do to post here and help out, takes a matter of just a few minutes. Through Sketchup's simplicity, you get a powerful application.

It supports linear array copies, full scaling in all dimensions, extrude, different options for views, axis you can rotate, etc. It's just SO easy to use, in my opinion, that I really have no need for CAD now (and I have a couple of them - Turbocad, Designcad, even AutoCad 2002).

If you follow the Sketchup forums (very active, and very helpful), a lot of professional architects and designers are using the product, worldwide. More and more furniture makers and woodworkers are using it. Last month in Remodeling Magazine, a guy did a write up on SketchUp. @LAST puts it like this: Start with Sketchup, and when you have the design you want, export it to your favorite CAD, if you have that need. People are using it for plant layouts, huge development projects (community housing, restaurant layout, renovations, etc., etc., etc.)

To do scale shop drawings, I would consider it a perfect fit. I design stuff to the 1/32" of an inch with it. Snaps are wonderfully easy - again - I'll point out the inference engine (which they just received a patent on).

Look again - and don't get hung up on the "this is not a CAD program", as I revel in that statement! (Woo-hoo! - it's not a complicated CAD program!!)

Todd

[Robert Ducharme]

Todd,

Tell us what you really think. :p

I got the evaluation copy that I have not used yet due to time. I do have a concern in that I see drawings posted on the nets in CAD format. If I ever want to see those, I probably need to get a CAD program as well as this (if I start using it). Currently, I just use visio. What to do? What to do :confused:

[john lawson]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the really great replies to my question. It really helped me think this thing through. I usally start my work with a sketch of some kind, and when the project has enough detail I will go into a dimensioned drawing. As most of you mentioned there can still be an occasional problems, especially when there is not enough detail in the design phase.

What has helped me in this is I realize I need to follow a little more disciplined approach, regardless of the method. So, I am going to continue sketching, get me a dedicated drafting table and machine (small), locating them just outside my shop door, and take each project "through the steps". I don't think I am ready for CAD, and I really enjoy creating something on a board, so to speak. I believe that making it convenient and getting the right tools will make me more successful.

I had mentioned in an earlier post, about buying some cherry, that I was getting ready to start a long range project; that project will be building my daughter between 8 to 10 fairly large and complex pieces. I have pictures of what she wants but no plans. Now I have a plan to make the plans.

Thanks again to everyone

john lawson

[Thomas Walker]

Todd,

I went to the sample link that you provided and I must say that it's very impressive. It's certainly more detailed than I expected from your description. For example, the crown molding detail, the shape of the pull out drawers and the perspective of the depth of the space for the TV look like they could take a lot of work.

So, how long did it take you to make that drawing?

TW



p.s. I also want to compliment you on your example projects on your webpage -- they look great!! If I may make a sugguestion -- why don't you put a picture of a piece of your work front and center on your home page. I see that you have a sample as a watermark, but I didn't really notice it & I think you would catch more attention & keep people on your website if you put a regular picture as the first thing they see.

[Todd Burch]

Thomas, you're too kind!

That "Flatscreen-TV" drawing took around 6 hours probably, done over 3 or 4 sessions. Did I charge my $60/hour rate for it? Heck no. Would you have paid $360 for that drawing? :) Now, realize that at the beginning of that 6 hours, I started with only a couple dimensions (the wall, the ceiling, and overall width of the piece, and a verbal concept of what the client wanted in regards to layout). Naturally, to draw it again, now that I can "see" it would not take near as long - probably only about 20-30 minutes. So, a lot of the original drawing time was "designing for construction" as I went. (Also for the angled side shelves, to come up with a look and a method that would be quick to make. I probably drew at least 6 different styles of shelves before I settled on one style.)

I used to actually draw joinery (dados, box joints, etc.), but that's really too much detail for most people. To simply convey a concept enough to sell a job, it's not necessary. I merely make adjustments in my head as I write out my cutlist (like adding ¾" to the length of shelves that sit in dados), using Sketchup's "measuring tape" tool. (Yes, the icon is a little retractable measuring tape!)

Most of the drawing components you see are very simple geometry. Since the push/pull extrude tool is to easy to use, you start to learn to draw a little differently (and efficiently). For example, to draw (what would be) a solid wood edging on the front of a plywood shelf, say, ¾" thick x 1½" tall, I start with a rectangle that is ¾" by 1½" on one end of the shelf, attached to the top corner of the shelf and hanging downward, and then "pull" it across the front of the shelf. It's really quite fast when you get the hang of it.

Also, thanks for the comments on my web site. I change it up every now and then, and I'm still waiting for that "right" piece to be made to put on the home page. Although, I agree that a real picture would most likely be more attention getting than the watermark.

[Mark Singer]

Todd,
I really like your website! Your ability to draw which makes things graphiclly clear to clients is a great way to sell your services and many cabinet and furniture guys can't do it....You have a real advantage! I have reviewed some awful shop drawings over the years...