Marking Knives

[Dave Anderson NH]

Here are some Snakewood and one Indian Rosewood marking knives I just finished making. The blades are only 5/16" wide and are much nicer for small work than my 3/4" wide bladed Lee Valley. While the LV works fine for most uses, it is just too awkward for marking the pins on really small dovetails. The steel for the blades is O1 from MSC Industrial Supply and the ferrules are brass from LV at about $.16 each.

[Tyler Howell]

Dave,
You have been quiet for a while......and very productive;).
Those are nice! Gifts, 4 sale items, or does a Neander use that many?

Still trying to learn the rules of this game.

[Terry Quiram]

Dave

Those are really nice. I made one last year after seeing your other marking knife. I don't know why I waited so long. They are so handy.

Terry

[Mark Singer]

Excellent! They look great and are probably great to use!

[Dave Anderson NH]

Mostly the tools I make are for gifts since they are fairly labor intensive and I am not geared for production. I demo toolmaking with hand tools each year at the Canterbury Shaker Village Wood Days at the end of June and last year I was almost being harrassed by a few folks wanting to buy stuff. I demurred, but have since re-evaluated. I am makiing a limited number of tools over the next few months to sell to our guild members and at Canterbury. My labor rate and profits will be abysmal, but maybe it can provide a few extra bucks for some new toys. I had a hobby as a side business once before (sea kayak imports and tours) and after 5 years it became a burden and the joy went out of it. I am determined not to let that happen again, hence the very low key approach. I do NOT want this to eat up all my time, have to deal with rushing to meet deadlines, or end up feeling that things are a drudge. I'll just make a few when the mood hits me, put them on display, and when they are gone that's the end until I feel motivated again (if ever). Obviously it's not exactly a hard charging business plan. For me the fun is in figuring out the design and how to build the item. My designs tend to be low tech and mostly 18th-19th century adapted to what I personally desire to own. My bowsaws are a classic example, I adapted a design I liked, made a few and it'll be a long time before I make any more. If I had to sell the bowsaws they would be over $200 because of all the hand work and the PIA of working with tiger maple and the dozen or more coats of shellac for a finish. Hand making handtools in small volume is not exactly a path to riches.

[Alan Turner]

I have been thinking about doiing some also. Do you have a product number, or some such thing, on the steel?

[Pam Niedermayer]

Dave Jeske of Blue Spruce Toolworks makes this type knife for sale, very nice, as are yours Dave.

Pam

[Tyler Howell]

Most impressive indead. I admire your approach.
PS it is OK to show the wine glass now you're not working with the sharp objects.:D

[Dave Anderson NH]

The O1 tool steel is available in either an 18" or 36" length from MSC Industrial Supply at www.msc.com. They will ship to homes and businesses and you can use a credit card. If you go online or have access to their big catalog you will find about 3000+ pages of shop and industrial supplies. There's very little you can't buy from them. I don't have a part number for the material, but you can do a search on their website. Another source is McMaster-Carr at www.mcmaster.com. These folks will get your order to you with either one to two days depending on where you live. Both places are pricey per unit you purchase, but actual very inexpensive since they will sell small quantity and they don't have minimum orders. If you work for any large or medium sized industrial company go down to either the machine shop, purchasing, or maintenence and see if they have an extra copy of the big catalog or an out of date one they'll give you. You can always check the price on the net. Unfortunately their catalogs are very expensive to produce and there's no way a hobbyist or small user can get one sent to him.

These places are also good sources for abrasives, safety items, inspection equipment, brass sheet rod or tube, and almost any raw material except wood. Their hardware selection boggles the mind. You could spend weeks leafing through the catalogs.

[Alan Turner]

Dave,
Thanks for the info. I do have the MSC Direct cat., and they send it to me each year, no problem. It is where I source my rasps and files. I just don't know metal. Did you have a special technique for cutting, sharpening? Did you have to temper the steel? Etc. As I say, wood is my game, and metal is new and intimidating to me.
Alan

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Dave,

Alan beat me to it, but I wanted ask whether you heat treated the blades also. Can you please give some details of how you attached the blade to the your handles? Those knives look like an excellent project to start doing some metal work and tool making.

Wendell

[Dave Anderson NH]

Yes, the steel has to be heat treated to harden it so that it will hold an edge. As purchased, the O1 is full annealed so that it cuts nicely with a hacksaw and is easily shaped with files, a bench grinder, or a belt sander, or all of the above.

There are libraries full of books on metalurgy and the techniques for hardening and tempering metals. Unfortunately I don't have the time to make this a life of research- like you guys I'm a woodworker. With a little research, the aid of some data sheets on ANSI O1 steel, and some advice from friends, I found a simple technique.

Smiths, and others used to dealing with heated steel, can tell temperatures by whether the color is red, cherry red, dark red, black red, and a whole bunch of other colors. This is a bit subjective for my taste and it also depends on the light you are working in and whether or not you've been fortunate enough to have someone experienced to point out the colors. Surface pyrometers and all kinds of other gear are also out of the question for most folks.

My technique is suitable for small stuff only since I only have a standard store bought propane torch. I take my workpiece and clamp it in my visegrips as far from the end being heated as possible. I grab a flat bladed screwdriver and attach a medium sized rare earth magnet near the tip of the blade. I put a small metal container with oil (for quenching) nearby for convenience. Things are now ready for hardening.

Set the torch upright on the bench and turn it on. Do not hold it, you'll need both hands for other things very soon. Pick up the visegrips with the blade clamped in place and place as much of the business end of the blade as possible into the flame. Things should be heating up now and slowly the steel will begin to change color and move toward some form of red. In your other hand you have the screwdriver with the magnet. Carefully and slowly bring it toward the heated portion of the steel. You should feel the magnetic attraction. While keeping the steel in the flame, keep moving the magnet toward and away from the steel constantly feeling to see if there is an attraction. AT THE POINT AT WHICH THE MAGNETIC ATTRACTION DISAPPEARS AND YOU CAN TOUCH THE MAGNET TO THE STEEL WITHOUT ATTRACTION THE STEEL IS AT THE PROPER HARDENING TEMPERATURE. Immediately remove the steel from the flame and plunge it into the oil and swirl it around. Congratulations, you have just successfully hardened your blade. To soften things slightly to prevent edge chipping on a striking tool or a cutting edge subject to abuse, wait till SWMBO leaves the house. Place the steel blade on a cookie tray and bake it in a preheated oven for 15 minutes at 325F.

Notes:

1) Protective and safety equipment should be readily accessible: gloves, fire extinguisher, wear safety glasses

2) The loss of magnetism in the steel at the correct heat treating temperature signifies the change in the austenite to marstentite. (sp)

3. Excercise caution-- obviously all this stuff is hot and can burn you badly. Let things cool down before handling.

4. This info is accurate ONLY for O1 or other oil hardening steels. Annealing temps can be different for different thicknesses and grades of steel. Check it out on a data sheet for recommended temps.

5. I will NOT be responsible if SWMBO comes home and catches you using the oven in this manner. You are on your own Bubba.

6. One final note- do not grind or sharpen your cutting edge all the way to a fine edge before heat treating. If you do, when heating the steel you run the risk of burning off the carbon in the steel (decarburizing) and the steel won't hold an edge. Do your final sharpening and honing after all the heat treating work is finished.

[Keith Outten]

Dave,

Thanks for the tutorial on hardening, I can barely remember high school shop when I last did any type of real metal hardening and quenching.

The knives are just awesome!

[Marc Hills]

Dave:

Beautiful job, as always. That snakewood handle is really striking, and of course the brass ferrules add a classy touch. Honestly, I don't know why anyone uses regular steel ferrules anymore.

I'll echo Keith's appreciation for the tutorial on heat treating. It is now cut and pasted in my ever growing notes on handtools.

But really Dave, austenitetomarsentite? You might as well have told me that the loss of magnatism is because the heat scares off a voodoo shamen that put a hex on the metal. Frankly I'm surprised you didn't refer to snakewood and Indian rosewood by their latin names.

Oh, and your approach to casual toolmaking is very wise. No sense in ruining a perfectly good hobby.

[David Klug]

Dave your description of tempering steel takes me back to the days I was in high school and learning to work with the forge. Our first project was to make a cold chisel. I got it all polished up and it looked great. The shop teacher grabbed it with a pair of vise grips, took 4lb forging hammer wacked away at it. About 1/4 in. went flying off the end. He looked at me and said "Klug it doesn't look like you had it tempered properly. Do it again." I did and this time it passed the test. I'll always remember that lesson. I still wish I had a forge to work with because I really enjoyed it.

DK

[Ralph Johnson]

Dave

Very nice work. Any chance you could post a drawing on the knife without the handle. My old eyes cant see much in the photo. also how did you attched the handle to the blade.

thanks

Ralph

[Dave Anderson NH]

Ralph and Wendell both asked how the knife blade was attached to the handle. The handle is drilled before turning to shape on the lathe so that the hole is centered when it comes time to attach the blade. The blade has a shoulder ground into it to preset the maximum depth the shank of the blade will go in. I mix up a small batch of epoxy and with a toothpick fill the hole about half full. I then wipe a small amount on the outside of the shoulder which is covered by the ferrule (only near the top). Slide on the ferrule and wipe then insert the blade to its full depth. Have a cloth handy with a slight bit of acetone on it to remove any overfill which pours out the top or gets on either the ferrule or the handle. See guys, tool making doesn't have to be a high tech endeavor. A propane torch, some simple vise grips, a file or two, a hacksaw, and a grinder and/or a belt sander and the rest is pure woodworking. My explanation will be a bit clearer if you look at the picture below with a yet to be assembled knife.

[Alan Turner]

Dave,
You have inspired me, and so I went to my MSC catalogue, and find the narrowest width is 1/2". Pages 1755 to 1760. Am I looking at the wrong steel? And, while I am bothering you, what thickness did you use? 1/8". Thanks for the info. and help, and inspiration. Now, to find some oven time.
Alan

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Alan, Here's the link to MSC webpage with 5/16" width stock:

Oil Hardened Flat Stock (http://www.mscdirect.com/IWCatSectionView.process?RestartFlow=t&Merchant_Id=1&p_section_Id=793&Section_Id=793&p_product_type_Id=447&ShowProductList=t&p_att_type_id_0=26613&p_att_value_id_0=15933&p_search_flag_0=1&p_att_type_id_1=26612&p_att_value_id_1=9075&p_search_flag_1=1&SelectedAtt.length=2&pbegin=0&pcount=15&NameVector%5B0%5D.Name=Width&NameVector%5B0%5D.Value=.3125&NameVector%5B1%5D.Name=Thickness&NameVector%5B1%5D.Value=.1250&NameVector.length=2&View.x.x=103&View.x.y=15&View.x=View+Products)

They list stock all the way down to 1/8" wide.


Dave, thanks for the pictures of the pre-assembled knife. Before I started getting interested in hand tools, I used to think I would never buy a lathe. Now that I've seen all the posts where people are making all kinds of nice tool handles on lathes, I may have to reconsider. If I don't stop reading these forums, my tools-to-buy list is never going to get shorter :)

Wendell

[Alan Turner]

Thanks so much. I was blind, I guess.

[Chris Padilla]

Love is blind, Alan, love is blind.... :)

Those knives are truly remarkable. I can see why people are beating down doors to try and get them. Fine work, Dave.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I used 3/32" thick O1 for my knives. I felt the 1/16" would be too thin and the 1/8" would be a bit too heavy. The 18" length of 3/32 by 3/8" is on page 1771 and is part numbered 06106063 and sells for $6.94. The 36" lengths are on page 1774.

[Alan Turner]

Dave,
Thanks for the details. Different pages in my book, but I appreciate the tip on the 3/32 thickness. I have never hardened steel before, so this should be a fun project.
Alan

[Robert Ducharme]

Color me ignorant!!! :confused:

What are these used for? Sorry, I am not even past the rock - flint stage. In fact, I don't even own a plane.

They do look nice

[Tyler Howell]

[QUOTE=Dave Anderson NH]Tomorrow we have our Guild of NH Woodworkers meeting on planers and jointers- their care, use, safety, and maintenence. I'll be out of the house most of the day while SWMBO hosts a good portion of her family for the monthly poker game- it's her turn. The rest of the weekend will be devoted to turning handles for a few scratch awls out of Indian Rosewood, Gabon Ebony and maybe some 200 year old chestnut a friend gave me this week. Then there's the metal work on the blades and the heat treating, and finally assembly. I'm also going to do a couple of prototype cutting gages with a new style fence--- big leaf maple burl with inset brass wear strips and ebony beams.

Dave after our exchange on the marking knives and your reference to turning here, I was wondering if you "Turn the Neanderthal way:confused:"__________________

[Dave Anderson NH]

Robert- Marking knives are used as an alternative to to pencils for marking lines on stock for cuts such as dovetails or dados. A marking knife leaves a very thin and defined line which is more accurate than that of a pencil. It also has the major advantage of scoring the wood fibers which defines an exact location for you to start your cut with either a chisel or a saw. Since the wood is scored you don't end up with chipped grain on the surfaces at the edge of the cut and your edges look cleaner and neater. I often use the scored mark as the place to insert the chisel tip when starting a paring cut, another way of assuring accuracy.

Tyler- I've used a friends treadle lathe on occasion, and once at a woodworking show Don Weber allowed me to take a try on his spring pole lathe, but essentially I'm an electon killer when it comes to turning. Unlike many on the power tool side of the creek, turning isn't something that comes naturally to me. I'm slow, ponderous, ham fisted, and have to work hard to get the shapes I want. Mostly it's because I don't spend a lot of time practicing. To me the lathe is just another tool, not a passion.

[Robert Ducharme]

Thanks for the info. I am now an expert.

You know, it was much easier to cut on the line when it was made with a 3/8" dry erase marker. Of course, the corners left something to be desired. :D

I just noticed the Apr 2004 Fine Woodworking had some information on measuring/marking accurately. I guess I should trade in my string with knots (1 about every one inch) and invest in one of them new fangled rulers. :rolleyes:

[Hank Knight]

"Unfortunately their catalogs are very expensive to produce and there's no way a hobbyist or small user can get one sent to him."

Dave, I've ordered from MSC Direct several times online - leveling pads for my workbench, some taper files for saw sharpening and some other small stuff. I ordered their Big Book online and they sent it to me without delay . I fully expected to pay for it but MSC didn't charge me. I like their service.

[Pat Salter]

Dave,
You have been quiet for a while......and very productive;).
Those are nice! Gifts, 4 sale items, or does a Neander use that many?

Still trying to learn the rules of this game.



Rules?????There are rules????Oh, wait, you must mean rulers! right?

[James Carmichael]

I hear ya, Dave, I'm sure we all think at sometime or another how fun it would be to make a living at our hobby, not realizing it would take most of the joy out of it.

Beautiful work, and thanks for posting your sources, I was looking for brass ferrules for chisel handles I'm making as well as a Kediki(sp?) that will need one or more blades.

[David Rose]

Gavin, Dave's method of heat treating is much simpler and quicker than case hardening. It is also much more suited to the purpose as case hardening would soon be removed in sharpening.

David


Dave - your knives are beautiful work; very inspiring. It occurred to me that for the less patient among us (OK, mainly me) it might be possible to get away with simple case hardening for this application? I remember once forging an (extremely) ugly scriber and case hardening it, and it kept its point pretty well when used on steel. Not very purist I realise, but should do the job.