Nobody Wants FreeStuff Drawings?

[Keith Outten]

Only about 3% of over 9,500 Active Members have donated so far this month. This means the odds of winning a FreeStuff Drawing is about one in 311 as of this morning. I have several more FreeStuff Drawings to post but I am hesitant to do so until a larger percentage of this Community is eligible to win.

If we are to remain advertising free we need support from this Community, please take a few minutes of your time and make a donation.

.

[Randal Stevenson]

May I ask what percentage of your contributers donate via check instead of paypal?

I know I did last year, and will be doing so towards the end of the week (I didn't record a check and tore out the carbon, so I don't want to write another until I make my deposit to be 100% safe). From what I have read, this means I will not be eligible for the drawings, until it clears, so I have that to contend with. You probably have other members who have mailed off their checks, and you haven't received them yet. Shouldn't the drawings wait a couple of weeks for them to come in, BEFORE starting the drawings?

Don't take this wrong, I am just trying to understand why the contest AND the membership drive started the same day.

Thank you!

[Gary Keedwell]

I have signed up for Pay pal a couple of times and at the last minute I cancel. How much do they charge? Is there a yearly payment or do they get a % of the order. Or do they get a standard fee for each order? :confused: :)
Thanks,
Gary

[Mike McCann]

I use paypal all the time with ebay. It does not cost you anythign to send money either from your checking acct or credit card. If you send by credit card the reciever has to pay a fee.

[Todd Burch]

Hummm. Free Drawing : purchase necessary?

As opposed to Free Drawing : no purchase necessary.

My uneasiness from the banner ads threat is waning. Perhaps you could better support the forum via Indirect and Direct advertising? 23,000+ members, with almost 10,000 active members is not too shabby. Perhaps a requirement for direct sponsorship is also donation for free stuff giveaways.

Personally, I don't need the giveaways. Chances are I have it, and if I don't, I don't need it. So, no motivation for me there. Keith, this is your board - do with it want you want.

On the flip side, if one could get the suggested $6 each from 9,500 active user's on a yearly basis, that ain't too shabby either. :eek:

Todd

[Gary Keedwell]

I use paypal all the time with ebay. It does not cost you anythign to send money either from your checking acct or credit card. If you send by credit card the reciever has to pay a fee.
:confused: :confused: If it doesn't cost me anything...how do they stay in business? I'm just a little hesitant...maybe because I don't understand. I can't seem to pull the trigger but I'm also leary of placing my catologue order using my credit card. So, Pay Pal is secure, huh?:o Gary

[Steve Busey]

:confused: :confused: If it doesn't cost me anything...how do they stay in business? I'm just a little hesitant...maybe because I don't understand. I can't seem to pull the trigger but I'm also leary of placing my catologue order using my credit card. So, Pay Pal is secure, huh?:o Gary

Gary, PayPal gets their money from "the seller". Someone I spoke with last night says he pays $20/month for his account, and pays 3-4% per transaction. It's free to "the buyer". HTH

[Jim Becker]

Gary, this is an OT topic, but to put it to rest, PayPal makes money on the "float" as well as the fee they charge to members and businesses that accept credit cards for payment. For individuals who do "cash only" transactions for receiving payments, there is no fee.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Scott Loven]

I have done over 6000 transactions with paypal over the last 7 years, no problems. They charge the sell (SMC) a percentage(Around 2.5%) which is less then a credit card company would charge.

[Keith Outten]

I think we have received about 25 checks, the rest have been via PayPal. I scheduled the FreeStuff Drawings to start on November 15th so that most would have plenty of opportunity to donate before the drawings started.

Donations are to support The Creek, there shouldn't be a problem financially with over 9,500 active Members here and the suggested donation of 6 bucks is low enough for a student to be able to affod to particiapate.

It is a lot of work to keep The Creek flowing plus the hours on the phone and email communications to coordinate FreeStuff Drawings. Starting this year we aren't working for free anymore, The Creek is commercially owned and operated so there should be some profit this year which is incentive for us to continue working for everyone.

FreeStuff Drawings are just an incentive for people to donate, they are not done for a fee, in fact the vendor ships directly to the winner...we don't make a penny on FreeStuff drawings. The people who win sure enjoy them though.

We have already discussed the advertising issue this year and decided not to go that route, we could move to a subscription based Forum if that is preferable to everyone. Either way we have to pay the bills and I don't see any problem with the people who use The Creek paying just over 1.5 cents per day for all the information and the friendly atmosphere.

PayPal takes about 3% of every donation made here.

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary, this is an OT topic, but to put it to rest, PayPal makes money on the "float" as well as the fee they charge to members and businesses that accept credit cards for payment. For individuals who do "cash only" transactions for receiving payments, there is no fee.

Jim
SMC Moderator
I beg to differ with you Jim. This thread is about money and if people don't know how to give the money to SMC ...how will SMC survive?:cool: :)
Gary

[Lee Schierer]

There's still 3-1/2 weeks left in the month if my calendar is correct.

Lee

[Gary Keedwell]

Thank-you
Mike M
Steve B
Scott L
I now feel more comfortable signing up for Pay Pal. :)
Gary K.

[Al Willits]

Considering procrastination is a way of life with me, I'll try and get a check to ya in the next week or so, not sure if I can still get a shirt or anything, but either way, I'll get something in.

This place is worth a hell of a lot more than $6 a year....

Al

[Bobby McCarley]

I have supported the Creek in the past and will continue in the future, but, my pay-pal account was hacked and I had to cancel my credit card because of it. So contrary to what most people say, pay-pal is not 100% safe. So until I get this staightened out, I will not be making a donation by pay-pal. The fund drive was stated to be the month of November. To me that is from the 1st to the 30th. If I miss out on the free drawings because I choose to donate by a slower and safer method, so be it. Is that fair considering the fund raiser was billed as the month of November..., I really don't want to open another sure can of worms. Everyone has to make their own choices and decisions in life as to how they play the game of life.

Bobby

[Keith Outten]

There's still 3-1/2 weeks left in the month if my calendar is correct.

Lee

Your right Lee there is plenty of time left in the month but when I see things slow down to a crawl I get a bit nervous. Jackie and I have to sign our annual contract with our bandwidth provider the end of the month and I don't feel comfortable making that kind of commitment if I think I may not be able to cover the bills toward the end of next year.

Normally we would see a fair size surge the first week which lowers the stress factor.

.

[Allen Tomaszek]

I'll send $6 to support the Creek but I wonder if this is a commercial venture why advertising is a bad thing? Everyone here eventually needs tools, wood, supplies of some kind. Why make them go to another website?

You already have a sponsors section (I'm assuming they support financially) and a classified section (all SMC members who you're currently asking for money). Why not expand it or create another section for people/companies who have something to sell that would be of interest to the community and would gladly give you money?

Just a thought....Allen

[Keith Outten]

Allen,

Over 90% of our Members don't want advertising. They speak loud and clear every time the subject comes up.

The funds we derive from our Manufacturers Forums are minuscule, we allow them because they are good for our Community since each provides some kind of benefit to our Members.

From the beginning there has always been concern that advertisers would expect special consideration in return for their financial support. For example there could be pressure to delete or edit posts that contain a negative comments or risk losing their advertising dollars. There is validity in this point of view.

Advertising is the easy way, especially for me since The Creek would be financially profitable over night given our statistics. We started SawMill Creek as a Community of woodworkers and would like it to stay that way rather than become just business and lose what is really valuable here. You can be sure that I would never let you say anything negative about a sponsor or advertiser here that was putting money in my pocket.

Just because everyone else uses advertising doesn't mean we can't do it differently and remain in control at the same time.

.

[Lori Kleinberg]

I am sorry this is such a stressful time of the year for you.
If you need to sign the bandwidth contract at the end of November, why don't you accept contributions for the next year starting in October.
I too, just recently mailed my check in because everything said to mail checks for 2008 starting November 1st. Since I had already been listed as a 2007 contributor I thought I would wait so there was no confusion, but I could have just as easily sent my check in October.

[Gary Keedwell]

http://smileyonline.free.fr/images/gif/bravo/vignette/thumbnails/1036535672_gif.gif I couldn't agree more. This is the best forum I have ever found online. Why ruin it? We don't need no stinkin advertising.
Gary

[Bob Reda]

Well it seems to me tht if over 90% of the members don't want advertising, and only 3 responded so far, whats that really saying.

Bob

[Bill Wyko]

Weellll business here has been so slow I can't even aford to pay attention.:cool: Seems to be picking up this week. If that happens I'll get a check on the way. Wish I could do more for SMC.

[Gary Keedwell]

Well it seems to me tht if over 90% of the members don't want advertising, and only 3 responded so far, whats that really saying.

Bob
I don't know what you mean. November is the month and it is only the 7th day. There is plenty of time for people to respond.
Gary

[Danny Thompson]

All I can say is, "Thanks." Great site. Keep us informed how things are going.

Maybe you can post a target/goal amount and our progress to date. You might get some double-dippers if things aren't going well.

[Bob Childress]

I don't know what you mean. November is the month and it is only the 7th day. There is plenty of time for people to respond.
Gary

Quite true Gary, but it will be interesting to see what the percentage is at the END of November. 10%? 25%? We'll see.

[JayStPeter]

If this is to become a money making venture, I see no reason to avoid advertising. I will still contribute as if it were a subscription. Every other forum I visit for all my hobbies have advertising and I see no negative to it. In fact, I like it better than the silly labels that I managed to avoid until this year by contributing anonymously.

[Gary Keedwell]

Quite true Gary, but it will be interesting to see what the percentage is at the END of November. 10%? 25%? We'll see.
Maybe I'm confused (happens all the time) What % are we talking about? The % of SMC people who contribute? Or the % of money we need to keep the forum running? Like already said, if push comes to shove...I'm sure there will be some double-dippers.
By the way...this is my first year of contributing, hence the "member" under my name, but I'll give twice if that is what it takes.:o
Gary

[Bob Reda]

Gary,

Thats true, however it has been mentioned more than several times over the past few months about the fund drive, which is a yearly thing. As keith mentioned he normally has a greater response in the first week or so than he has had this year, in which I can understand why he is a little worried. In a thread just a few days ago when Keith asked about advertising or not, it was really a passionat response which apparently Keith is not seeing when its time for action. I do believe however that the members will step up and would like to tell Keith that worrying is bad for your health!

Bob

[John Viola]

After almost 2 years of lurking I finally ponied up. It won't pay all your bills but I hope it helps a little bit. :D

[Bruce Page]

Thanks John. Every bit helps.

[Bob Childress]

Maybe I'm confused (happens all the time) What % are we talking about? The % of SMC people who contribute? Or the % of money we need to keep the forum running? Like already said, if push comes to shove...I'm sure there will be some double-dippers.
By the way...this is my first year of contributing, hence the "member" under my name, but I'll give twice if that is what it takes.:o
Gary

Sorry. I meant the % of Active members who actually contribute. :o :) That is, of the 9,000+ or so.

[Glen Gunderson]

Only around 500 contributed for the entire 2007 fund drive. Over 300 in the first week doesn't seem too bad.

Though I'm not really surprised that such a small percent of members contribute. Virtually every other woodworking forum requires no contributions to exist, so you have to have people that are simultaneously enthusiastic enough about Sawmill Creek to pay for it, opposed to advertising enough to pay to avoid it, and in a financial position that allows them to contribute.

I suspect there is a silent majority who wouldn't really care if there was advertising. That said, people who are contributing financially (and with their time) are putting their money where their mouths are and should certainly be given preference. I must say I sympathize with Keith et al, as they have to work hard to simultaneously offer contributors value for their money while still keeping the forum accessible to the casual user, all while working within a fairly strict budgetary framework.

[Allen Tomaszek]

Thanks Keith. Just completed my PAYPAL transaction to support SMC. I understand your desire to keep things as non-commercial as possible to preserve the integrity of the site. It's great to see people stick with their vision.

Danny Thompson posted a great idea further up this thread about giving updates on how well the fund drive is going. It would help keep people aware of how their contributions are stacking up and might encourage people to give more than once.

Or in many cases even once. I find it interesting that 90% of the people would respond that they don't want to see advertising but a certain portion of those don't contribute to support the community.

Good luck no matter how you choose to do it. Allen

[Gary Keedwell]

Thanks Keith. Just completed my PAYPAL transaction to support SMC. I understand your desire to keep things as non-commercial as possible to preserve the integrity of the site. It's great to see people stick with their vision.

Danny Thompson posted a great idea further up this thread about giving updates on how well the fund drive is going. It would help keep people aware of how their contributions are stacking up and might encourage people to give more than once.

Or in many cases even once. I find it interesting that 90% of the people would respond that they don't want to see advertising but a certain portion of those don't contribute to support the community.

Good luck no matter how you choose to do it. Allen
I could not, on my best day, say it more eloquently then my predecessor, Mr. Tomaszek. :)
Gary

[Jim Kilburg]

Just ponied up via PayPal. It's one of those things that are so easy to put off. Anyway thanks for running a great forum. Jim

[Dave Falkenstein]

...I find it interesting that 90% of the people would respond that they don't want to see advertising...

The way I interpret the 90% in favor of no advertising is 90% of the people that responded to an earlier posting by Keith asking about the no advertising policy were opposed to it. There would be no way to determine what percentage of the total SMC population was opposed to or in favor of any issue. I think!!!

[Don Bullock]

Keith, thanks for all that you and Jackie do to keep SMC flowing. My check was put in the mail on Monday (had to wait for payday;) :D ).

Edit: I see by my new "label" that you must have received my check.

[Jim O'Dell]

As I stated in another thread, my check went in the mail last Friday. Guess it hasn't gotten there yet. :D
This has always been a great forum, even when things go on that I don't agree with 100%. I hope my little bit helps it to continue that way. Jim.

[Shane Sura]

First of all a big thanks to all the people who run the creek and keep it such a great place to keep coming back to.

One comment on what was said above. First of all let me say I am about as cheap as they come. I pour over Craigslist, here, the Bay and the clearance aisles looking for deal after deal. I will not buy something right now if I can put it off for a month and save 20 dollars. When I say cheap I mean it. However, as cheap as I am I just cannot imagine the comments people are making about preferring advertisements over paying 6 bucks. I mean COME ON its 6 bucks. I do not care what horrible turn your life may have taken if you can afford the electric to power your computer, monitor, cable modem / router (if applicable) and the lights to see your keyboard by then you can afford 6 bucks. Lets not forget that you are, in some fashion, logging on to the internet to even look at this site. You are paying to look at it why not chip in 6 bucks. I GUARANTEE you spend more than 6 bucks in electricity all year long by powering your computer. If you no longer have a computer then I completely understand you not donating to the Creek, but then again I doubt you would have been able to post and suggest advertisements.

For those of you who may only connect from a friends computer, local library, or other such places might I suggest the amount you are spending with today's fuel prices :confused:.

Send your 6 dollars.


Shane

BTW as cheap as I am I gave 10 dollars so if you only have 2 bucks send it and I got you covered.

[Larry Anderson]

I don't contribute much, but come here with my questions and always get a courteous response. Unlike some of the other forums I have frequented, this one always provides me with answers without smart aleck comments. Therefore, I am happy to have sent my contribution.

A satisfied custumer,
Larry

[Jim Kountz]

my pay-pal account was hacked and I had to cancel my credit card because of it. So contrary to what most people say, pay-pal is not 100% safe.
Bobby

People PLEASE take this warning seriously! He is not kidding, the same thing happened to me this year. Some jerk in Japan somewhere hacked my account and took me for over $500! Thats right, $500. It took me and my bank over a month to fix this, and in the meantime every thing that I had connected to that card and account went unpaid, got screwed up in some way and was an overall mess. I also had to cancel the ENTIRE account with my bank, not just the CC. Here is what you do to be safe and STILL use Paypal. Simply add your CC, make the donation and wait for the transaction to clear your account. Then go right back in and remove the card when done. It only takes a minute and saves you headaches. If you dont think this can happen to you YOU ARE WRONG!!

Jim

[Gary Keedwell]

Jim...I just got my Pay Pal today. Are you saying remove my card? How do I do that? And how do I put it back in PayPall. Won't they get mad if I try to do that after every transaction?
Gary

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Keith,

Just sent payment for 2008!

I got to be honest with you, I don't see a great deal of visibility for the fund drive. It is stickied in the Support Forum, but I never go in that forum. I would like to see the fund drive info posted as a sticky on each subforum. Also it seems the 'Free Stuff' stickies would over ride the fund drive sticky. I personally have never clicked on the FreeStuff Drawings Forum or the stickies at the top of General Woodworking Forum.

I don't know how you feel about this, but could you send a solicitation email? I know I would not have minded being made aware of the fund drive via email.

Anyway, thanks for the great forum!

[Anchor Sarslow]

so how does the contributor label appear on our posts? is it automatic or what?

OH>> never mind.. I see it now.. hehe..

[Dave Falkenstein]

Jim...I just got my Pay Pal today. Are you saying remove my card? How do I do that? And how do I put it back in PayPall. Won't they get mad if I try to do that after every transaction?
Gary

Gary - you can easily add and remove credit cards from your Pay Pal account by editing your Pay Pal profile.

I must wonder if the reports of people having trouble with Pay Pal accounts has anything to do with the phishing that goes on using Pay Pal as bait. I have received several phony emails, supposedly from Pay Pal, asking me to go to a site and "verify" my account information. If a person falls for this scam, then your credit information can fall into the wrong hands. I think this might be the source of problems with account information getting compromised, rather than Pay Pal accounts being "hacked".

[Darren Ford]

I agree with Jeffrey, I expected to see a lot more exposure for the fund drive. Maybe you could change the color scheme to green during November, and when anybody asks why, point them to the fund drive thread.

[John Kendall]

I've had good luck with my Paypal account even before it was owned by Ebay. I've also had a couple of incidents where I've been able to recover my payments back from thieves on Ebay also. I know it's not 100% foolproof, but it is pretty darn secure. Even with my credit card information listed with them, I've not had a problem. :)

How long does it take until you see "member" change over to "contributor"? I put my money where my mouth is tonight and was just wondering...

[Keith Outten]

Keith,

Just sent payment for 2008!

I got to be honest with you, I don't see a great deal of visibility for the fund drive. It is stickied in the Support Forum, but I never go in that forum. I would like to see the fund drive info posted as a sticky on each subforum. Also it seems the 'Free Stuff' stickies would over ride the fund drive sticky. I personally have never clicked on the FreeStuff Drawings Forum or the stickies at the top of General Woodworking Forum.

I don't know how you feel about this, but could you send a solicitation email? I know I would not have minded being made aware of the fund drive via email.

Anyway, thanks for the great forum!

Jeffrey,

Last year John Bailey and I inundated every Forum with threads pushing our Fund Drive. Many complained about the advertising threads so this year I decided we would promote the fund drive via our FreeStuff Drawings. We changed the eligibility rules for drawings so that only Contributors would be able to win thinking that this would get peoples attention without having to hard sell the fund drive.

You may also be surprised that I have started using the built-in announcements feature here, it is at the top of every forum just above the menu bar. I have been making announcements concerning our fund drive and all of the FreeStuff Drawings as well with updates almost every day. I prefer not to use our email blast unless we have a real emergency.

The bottom line is that there isn't a good way to communicate here because people jump right to their favorite forum and start reading posts, they don't look around much and most have no idea we have a calendar.

I guess I will discuss this with John Bailey, we may have to return to the posting dozens of advertising threads but I really dislike that type of advertising even if it is for The Creek.

.

[Matt Meiser]

Keith, I was wondering why the announcement banner went away, but now I see it is still there. It isn't showing up when I use the New Posts feature, which is what my bookmark for SMC is set for. I think it did at first. Just wondering if that is another reason people aren't hearing about it?

As for the Paypal/credit card thing: Your credit card can get stolen even easier when used in person. The bad guys have a device that will read the magnetic stripe and they can later make a duplicate card. This happened to both my brother and I. In his case, his card was scanned in California and in Ohio within 2 minutes, causing bank to get suspicious. In my opinion the key to survival is watching your statements and having a good bank to back you up. Ours is through a credit union and they couldn't have done anything to be more helpful, even overnighting me a replacement card.

[Don Bullock]

I have to admit that last year it was one of John's posts that caught my eye. John does a good job of explaining why people should contribute. I believe that many people, especially Jim Becker, also made helpful comments to John's post. While some may complain about the posts, they are effective. As for the "free stuff," I like the idea and all the work that you put into them is appreciated, but I'm sure that there are many like me who don't feel that they'll be very lucky. Things like that for some are not much of an incentive.

[John W. Willis]

In the short time that I've been a member here, I can't begin to tell you how much knowledge I've gained. You just can't get this depth of experience on so many subjects anywhere else.

If that were not enough I have learned of dozens of good merchants and sources for hard to find items. I've learned how NOT to do things and what works and doesn't work. I've learned of dozens and dozens of great sales/deals shared by unselfish members.

I'm very proud to be a contributor to this forum and to put back just a small amount of the money and headaches that I've been saved.

Thanks Sawmill Creek!

[Gary Redden]

2008 contribution sent. Thank you for the reminder :)

[Don Dean]

I am always surprise how much conversation is generated for a $6.00 contribution each year and nothing new is said. Looking forward to 2009 fund drive and hopefully not the same old conversation. God bless and keep the wood chips flying.

[Mike Sheppard]

Keith
I just sent $10, let me know if that is enough? For all the info I get here that would be cheap at twice the price.
Mike

[Bill Huber]

Nothing in life is free and a lot of people just do not understand that to run a board like this is a big job.
Then there is the cost of the bandwidth and the host.
I am a member of many boards and a contributor to a lot of them. The way I see it is that I don't spend as much on contributing to boards as a lot of people do just going out to eat.
I have a friend that was kind of complaining about my nagging him to send in some money to one the boards we are on. I then ask him how much money did he spend for his eating out and how much money did he spend on playing gold.....
Then I ask him of the 3 eating out, playing golf or reading and posting on the board which one did he spend the most time doing.

Well I am happy to say he sent in 3 years worth of contributions at one time and has been a big contributor now for the last 5 years.

I guess I have a little problem with people that will spend $100 on a meal but won't spend $10 on something that they do just about every night and at the same time learn a lot.

[Gary Keedwell]

I could not agree with you more, Bill. I usually don't pay any attention to what label is under the names here. I know mine has said "member" for a long time. As far as I'm concerned, it can stay as "member" but I finally had an "awakening" as to how much I enjoy spending time here at the Creek and that I haven't made any monetary contributions.
I even had to start a new Pay Pal account because I didn't want to send by "snail mail" and I couldn't use my credit card here. I put in over 3 year's worth of membership fees and if push comes to shove, I'll make another contribution.
How can you put a price on great advice and good company?;)
Gary

[Rick Potter]

Hard to believe, but untill I read this thread, I wasn't even aware you needed donations to keep the water running. When I get on the Creek, I always go directly to the general woodworking section, and look at what's interesting. I rarely look at the title of sticky's, much less open them. Not being a computer person, I really only noticed that they were something I had to go past to get to what I wanted to see.

I did open one the other day, about router sets, and glanced at it, but the part about donations did not register on me. Today I found on the tool bar (?) the spot for donations....Yes I am that dense (I prefer focused).

So...........may I make a suggestion? Perhaps a direct appeal for money in the body of each forum, perhaps quarterly. It might wake up a few others like me.

SURE, I'll donate, all ya gotta do is ask. This site is a keeper.

Rick Potter

[Keith Outten]

Before I activate John Bailey (our Fund Drive Coordinator) I have asked Aaron to setup a major billboard of some kind and place it on our main menu. It will have to be something that no human being could miss and it would be removed the end of the month.

Lets see what Aaron can come up with that will get some attention.

Thanks,
Keith

[Randal Stevenson]

Before I activate John Bailey (our Fund Drive Coordinator) I have asked Aaron to setup a major billboard of some kind and place it on our main menu. It will have to be something that no human being could miss and it would be removed the end of the month.

Lets see what Aaron can come up with that will get some attention.

Thanks,
Keith

Easy

A while back a forum that I used to visit (project specific), started having issues between its admins (it got ugly). They sent out an email, which linked to the site (the initial page, in this case that would be the first thing when you type www.sawmillcreek.org), it came up with the facts (in this case "it is our contributership drive, please become a contributer, for $6 or more, thank you!) with a link to go to the next page. That should be an fairly simple implimentation.

Mailing off today!
Thank you!

[Bruce Page]

I am always surprise how much conversation is generated for a $6.00 contribution each year and nothing new is said.

Ain't that the truth....

[Sandra Force]

I belong to a couple of forums ranging from paid members only to free that is supported by advertising. I can tell you that the one I spend the least time on is the advert supported forum:cool:. I don't care for the format. My second least favorite is a mixed forum with premium members and free with the premium members getting access to more areas on it, this causes some ugly problems:eek: . My favorites are this one and a paid members only forum. I get more information and I don't mind the cost. It is tax deductible as a business expense:D . If the people on this forum are not interested in supporting it on a voluntary basis, then I am more than willing to go to a fee required system.

[James Gillespie, Jr.]

I'm a fairly new users to sawmillcreek, and I'm happy to pony up $6 for the info I've gained here (just sent Paypal). Looking forward to my 2008 Contributor title as well.

Cheers,
James

[Gary Keedwell]

:d :d :d :d :d :d Bump

[Sean Hughes]

sent my moolah in this afternoon!!!! This place is a wealth on info!!!:) :) :)

[Bill Wyko]

Business got good today. Got ya 25 bucks out. Good luck to all of the contributors. (especially me:D )Come on everyone dig deep.:o

[Jack Camillo]

Keith,
how long does it take to get to you? When will I be a "contributor" (and eligible for freestuffdrawings?) On another note, I went to the donate link today and used a credit card, but then got a receipt in email saying I paid by paypal. (I do NOT want paypal) Please also address this paypal problem. I was very careful NOT to select paypal.

[Jim Becker]

On another note, I went to the donate link today and used a credit card, but then got a receipt in email saying I paid by paypal. (I do NOT want paypal) Please also address this paypal problem. I was very careful NOT to select paypal.

I also answered this in the Support Forum where you also posted the same question. PayPal processes the CC transaction if you choose to use a credit card...the button with the pictures of the credit cards takes you to a custom PayPal transaction page. You only need to be a PayPal member if you want to pay cash via the service. As long as your email indicated that the payee is Northwind Associates, things are "correct" and not a problem.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Gene O. Carpenter]

Keith,
I just went to my PP act and entered:

sales at northwindassociates.com

and it wouldn't accept the transaction..Now for some reason this is being displayed in blue.
I've never won anything ayway so I guess it doesn't matter anyway.

Gene

[Jim Becker]

Gene, you need to convert that to a real email address. Keith put it in the text that way to avoid screen-scraping 'bots that steal addresses for spam purposes--this is not unusual and is quite a normal way to pass on an email address. PayPal uses email addresses to identify "accounts" and "users". Type in "Sales" and then the "@" sign and then the rest of the address...all "one word" with no spaces...

Or...just click on the Graphic Donate Link on the donation page which takes you to a customer PayPal form. Select to login to PayPal and use that method for payment. (Users can also choose to pay via credit card without logging into PayPal, but please note that PayPal still is going to be who processes the transaction)

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Matt Meiser]

Change the " at " with an @, like an email address.

[Gene O. Carpenter]

Damned, I didn't even think of that, just cut and pasted like I always do ! DUH Double DUH,DUH
Gene

[Gene O. Carpenter]

It still wont take it!sales @ northwindassociates.com,
I even tried ;sales@northwindassociates.com and it just won't accept it..I'm gonna get a notice from PP that someones dilly dallying with my act
Gene

[Jim Becker]

Gene...just click here and have at it with the graphical "donate" button. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/donate.php)

[Gene O. Carpenter]

You got it !! Whewww after that I'm going to hit the sawdust matress! :)
Gene

[Denny Rice]

I cannot believe all of us are in a hobby where it cost 1000's of dollars in tools and machines and some people who enter this site would complain about 50 cents an month, a little more than 1.7 cents a day. Come on guys,1.7 cents a day! Isn't 50 cents a month worth keeping all the pop-ups and spam off this website? I know I would not like this site as much as I do if I had to keep closing pop-ups or had to wait for my screen to refresh because I had to wait for 10 ads to download onto the page. SMC is a great place lets keep it the way it is. :D

[Denny Rice]

People PLEASE take this warning seriously! He is not kidding, the same thing happened to me this year. Some jerk in Japan somewhere hacked my account and took me for over $500! Thats right, $500. It took me and my bank over a month to fix this, and in the meantime every thing that I had connected to that card and account went unpaid, got screwed up in some way and was an overall mess. I also had to cancel the ENTIRE account with my bank, not just the CC. Here is what you do to be safe and STILL use Paypal. Simply add your CC, make the donation and wait for the transaction to clear your account. Then go right back in and remove the card when done. It only takes a minute and saves you headaches. If you dont think this can happen to you YOU ARE WRONG!!

Jim

Jim I just removed all my CC #'s off my Paypal account. Thanks for the info.

[Jack Camillo]

Thanks for the reply, Jim.

[Keith Outten]

There are 9 FreeStuff Drawings already scheduled for November and 12 more that I haven't scheduled yet. We have several other FreeStuff offers pending with various vendors.

Clearly November is a FreeStuff Extravaganza with 21 Drawings, and lets not forget a 6 set router bit Bulk Buy from Centurion Tools that runs the entire month.

We will continue to coordinate as many Bulk Buys and FreeStuff Drawings as we can throughout the coming year based on the number of Contributors who support The Creek. As you can see I don't mind working for you if you will support me in return.

I can't imagine anyone would prefer advertising over FreeStuff Drawings that provides someone in our Community the opportunity to win a nice prize. Remember, the odds of winning are so much better this year since only Contributors are eligible to win prizes. For vendors this is the best means of advertising new tools, services and supplies and for the most part it is the most cost effective marketing I know of these days.

Who else would work so hard for you for 6 dollars a year?

Thanks to all of you who have made donations that will keep SawMill Creek flowing for another year. To those who have not made their decision to make a contribution we would appreciate your support this year.

.

[Sean Troy]

I cannot believe all of us are in a hobby where it cost 1000's of dollars in tools and machines and some people who enter this site would complain about 50 cents an month, a little more than 1.7 cents a day. Come on guys,1.7 cents a day! Isn't 50 cents a month worth keeping all the pop-ups and spam off this website? I know I would not like this site as much as I do if I had to keep closing pop-ups or had to wait for my screen to refresh because I had to wait for 10 ads to download onto the page. SMC is a great place lets keep it the way it is. :D

It can't be said any better than that !

[Randal Stevenson]

I cannot believe all of us are in a hobby where it cost 1000's of dollars in tools and machines and some people who enter this site would complain about 50 cents an month, a little more than 1.7 cents a day. Come on guys,1.7 cents a day! Isn't 50 cents a month worth keeping all the pop-ups and spam off this website? I know I would not like this site as much as I do if I had to keep closing pop-ups or had to wait for my screen to refresh because I had to wait for 10 ads to download onto the page. SMC is a great place lets keep it the way it is. :D


It can't be said any better than that !


In my best commercial voice............

For Only 1.7 cents a day, you too can support a woodworker. He and his wife, or the forum admin, will send messages to you and others, that you can watch them grow. That is less then a cup of coffee. Wouldn't you help a starving woodworker?:D

I am sure you recognize that commercial, check mailed off yesterday.
Thanks to all here, for making this forum what it is, now lets get more members.

[Gary Keedwell]

Hard to believe, but untill I read this thread, I wasn't even aware you needed donations to keep the water running. When I get on the Creek, I always go directly to the general woodworking section, and look at what's interesting. I rarely look at the title of sticky's, much less open them. Not being a computer person, I really only noticed that they were something I had to go past to get to what I wanted to see.

I did open one the other day, about router sets, and glanced at it, but the part about donations did not register on me. Today I found on the tool bar (?) the spot for donations....Yes I am that dense (I prefer focused).

So...........may I make a suggestion? Perhaps a direct appeal for money in the body of each forum, perhaps quarterly. It might wake up a few others like me.

SURE, I'll donate, all ya gotta do is ask. This site is a keeper.

Rick Potter
This has got to be my favorite post. :) Hope you don't mind me re-posting it Rick, but I was in the same boat as you. I am that dense (focused) as you, almost. ;)
Gary

[Todd Burch]

However, as cheap as I am I just cannot imagine the comments people are making about preferring advertisements over paying 6 bucks. I mean COME ON its 6 bucks. I do not care what horrible turn your life may have taken if you can afford the electric to power your computer, monitor, cable modem / router (if applicable) and the lights to see your keyboard by then you can afford 6 bucks. Lets not forget that you are, in some fashion, logging on to the internet to even look at this site. You are paying to look at it why not chip in 6 bucks. I GUARANTEE you spend
more than 6 bucks in electricity all year long by powering your computer. If you no longer have a computer then I completely understand you not donating to the Creek, but then again I doubt you would have been able to post and suggest advertisements.
...
Shane




I cannot believe all of us are in a hobby where it cost 1000's of dollars in tools and machines and some people who enter this site would complain about 50 cents an month, a little more than 1.7 cents a day. Come on guys,1.7 cents a day! Isn't 50 cents a month worth keeping all the pop-ups and spam off this website? I know I would not like this site as much as I do if I had to keep closing pop-ups or had to wait for my screen to refresh because I had to wait for 10 ads to download onto the page. SMC is a great place lets keep it the way it is. :D

Call me dense, but where are these posts of people complaining about sending in $6 that you both are referring to?

Todd

[Matt Meiser]

The complaints are in a thread that has been locked, and I think moved to the moderators forum.

[Cody Colston]

Todd,

It's not so much folks complaining as it is simply refusing to donate...for whatever reason. It's similar to a Baptist church (at least the ones I've belonged to) where 10% of the congregation donate 90% of the money.

There's some things I occassionally disagree with here at SMC but after thinking about it, I realized that the woodworking benefit derived from this forum far outweighs any objections I might have regarding how things are done.

Speaking for myself, I need all the help I can get when it comes to woodworking. I'll never be as talented as you but I am improving, thanks in part to knowledge I've gleaned here at SMC.

[Ron Hedrick]

After the money that I saved on the Craftsman Drill Press, I figured that I better contribute. That deal alone was worth the price of admission!!

[Todd Burch]

OK, phew. I was thinking my original comments might have sparked some idea that I was unwilling or incapable of contributing. Glad that's cleared up.

I do have a couple more comments to make.

Keith and crew are not working for free anymore. That's fantastic. I wouldn't have lasted as long as you all have. Life is too short.

Keith and crew want to make a profit. No problem. More power to you!

If having paid advertisers, like Minwax, (as a totally random example), meant I could not reply to a post where someone wasn't getting good finishing results with Minwax oil based stains, and I told them why Minwax oil based stains suck, and what products to use to get better results, then I would not be part of that forum.

So, in that vein, IF that's how SMC would be operated, and from my understanding of the preceding posts, that IS how SMC would be operated, THEN I am totally against having Minwax as an advertiser - I mean having direct paid advertisers. ;)

What am I saying? If this is a for-profit venture, and it is, then my advice to SMC, for your sanity's sake, would be to get on with it and quit passing the hat. I mean, it's a business, right? If SMC could surely do the advertising thing based on stats, then SMC stockholders ought to be pretty upset with the SMC board of directors for not doing it. Don't want advertisers? No problem. Make it a subscription, everybody pays, and there aren't second class citizen titles, and everybody is eligible for the freeadvertisingstuff giveaways.

If 90% of membership don't want advertising while only 30% (or whatever) donate (those who are willing to put their money where their mouth is), seems like the tail might be wagging the dog.

Todd

[Gary Keedwell]

Todd,
Like your fellow Texan said about the church, you just can't kick out the 90% that doesn't pay, can you? Hmmmmmm Maybe somebody better bail me out before I put my foot in my mouth again:eek: :)
Gary

[Jack Diemer]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

[Glen Blanchard]

I'm doing my utmost best to understand why someone would expend the time and energy playing devil's advocate in a thread from a forum in which he apparently has an interest, when the topic at hand is a $6.00 annual donation.

Perhaps **I** am the one who is dense.

[Gary Keedwell]

I don't know...I quit trying to figure people out a long time ago. My ex- father-in-law is one of the nicest guys you would ever want to meet. But he had it in his head that he had to give the church 10% of everything he made.

Seems to me that he was such a good person that he would have gotten in to heaven alot cheaper.:eek: :)
Gary

[Todd Burch]

I'm doing my utmost best to understand why someone would expend the time and energy playing devil's advocate in a thread from a forum in which he apparently has an interest, when the topic at hand is a $6.00 annual donation.

It's not making sense to me either. The amount of money is minuscule, and that's not my beef. $6/year. 1.7 cents a day - whatever. Who cares.

I guess it's a few principles. I have helped make this forum what it is. My time is valuable too (note to self - type faster). Because of my posts and others like me, this forum has been elevated to a point that makes it a fun place to learn and teach and hang out. My thanks? A "send in <a suggested> $6 or else you don't get to participate with everyone else and your peers can sneer at your avatar when they see you didn't pony up".

It ain't like church. Church doesn't post in the bulletin who did and didn't tithe.

And if you're going to profit on the donated knowledge and labor of others, I don't understand the whole resistance to going BIG PROFIT, either. I'd do it in a heartbeat. There would be ads on this website faster than you could say "early retirement".

In the end, this is free enterprise and Keith is free to ask anybody for anything he wants, and free to run this URL as he wishes, and that's that. I get the choice to send in any amount of money I choose to get a new scarlet letter, or not.

Todd

[Gary Keedwell]

It's not making sense to me either. The amount of money is minuscule, and that's not my beef. $6/year. 1.7 cents a day - whatever. Who cares.

I guess it's a few principles. I have helped make this forum what it is. My time is valuable too (note to self - type faster). Because of my posts and others like me, this forum has been elevated to a point that makes it a fun place to learn and teach and hang out. My thanks? A "send in <a suggested> $6 or else you don't get to participate with everyone else and your peers can sneer at your avatar when they see you didn't pony up".

It ain't like church. Church doesn't post in the bulletin who did and didn't tithe.

And if you're going to profit on the donated knowledge and labor of others, I don't understand the whole resistance to going BIG PROFIT, either. I'd do it in a heartbeat. There would be ads on this website faster than you could say "early retirement".

In the end, this is free enterprise and Keith is free to ask anybody for anything he wants, and free to run this URL as he wishes, and that's that. I get the choice to send in any amount of money I choose to get a new scarlet letter, or not.

Todd
Just thought I would BUMP this up and see if there is still any life left in this thread.:)
Gary

[Fred Woodward]

The check is in the mail. Like so many others here, I just go to my favorite forum and don't pay a lot of attention to Sticky's and such. I really do not like to do transactions with PayPal, so I almost missed the address to send a donation to. I finally clicked on the "Donate Now" link and saw the address to send my contribution to. It will be to you as soon as my Bill Pay Account at my bank gets it out.
This is certainly the very best woodworking forum site I have found and 1.7 cents a day to feed a starving woodworker forum is such a small price to pay. I'm sure I save a ten times the price of admission on a regular basis here.

[Christopher Kanda]

When is the oldest date to have contributed in order to be eligible for the drawings?

[Christopher Kanda]

What the heck....I'll donate some more money since this is a GREAT forum and I learn a lot for all of you.

[Glen Blanchard]

I get the choice to send in any amount of money I choose to get a new scarlet letter, or not.

Todd

Perhaps you are lending too much credence to the avatar notation. I seldom even notice the status of the poster. Referring to it as a "scarlet letter" is a bit over the top, dontcha think?

[Gary Keedwell]

Until the last couple of days, I never paid much attention to the "titles" either. I know this sounds funny now...but when I first started visiting here a few years ago, I thought the contributer thing was kind of elitist, ya know like those plaques on the wall in the hospitals where some rich guy donated a wing or equipment. LOL
I took me awhile to realize that Saw Mill Creek depended on ordinary guys, like myself, to survive and not be dictated to by "sponsors" or advertisers.;)
Gary

[Chris Padilla]

Keith,

I see a lot of new "2008 Contributor" titles...how we doin'? :)

[Gary Keedwell]

I know...I sense more awareness this year. Could just be my imagination.
Gary

[Keith Outten]

Chris,

I will have to ask Aaron about the numbers, I don't have access to the vBulletin database. Well I actually do have access but my skill level makes me dangerous so I stay out of the thing for fear of deleting everyone :)

Just my gut feeling but I would guess we are at about 5% participation at this point. I will find out the actual number this afternoon.

.

[David Cramer]

Life is tough right now where I live, real tough and I have no work (believe it or not). It's called living check by check (wife's check) and I don't like it, but I'm not giving up.

Will I pony up when times get better, you betcha! Will I make it in time for the drawing dates, absolutely not, not even close and it won't bother me in the least. I'm not here for that and yes, I am serious. I have had pm's from really decent guys and gals that have made my day and far outweigh any prize that sawmillcreek will ever give away. It puts a priceless smile on my face when I get a "thank you" or "I never thought of that" from a member of this site.

As far as Todd's comments, I have to say he is totally correct (in my opinion) about his time and input on this site. I believe guys like him, Jim Becker, Chris Padilla, John Miliunas, Ken Fitzgerald, Dennis Peacock, Mark Singer, Tyler Howell, Alan Turner, etc...... truly are why this site is where it's at today. If they wanna give financially or not, it's up to them and their own personal situation. I think guys who have posted as much helpful info as them and many, many others with 1,000's of posts, are what really got this site to where it is today.

Believe me, I realize that many, many people will disagree with my rational and that's okay with me. But........... Todd is right, his time is valuable and he among many others have so unselfishly given invaluable and indepth advice that you can't even be found in some magazines. What does he get out of this site? Besides hanging out, I am sure he teaches WAY more than he learns and that's fine. But I truly understand what he's saying about making this site what it is today, and I for one agree. Without Keith and friends starting this site and the large number of people who have posted 1,000's of posts, there would be no sawmillcreek, at least not the sawmillcreek that you know of today. Those guys worked hard and have spent many, many hours making posts to help people, for free!

As far as advertising, I to am in the seemingly minority. Keith should be paid fairly for what he's done and having some advertising will not, I repeat will not keep as many people away as some think. It will happen eventually, and unfortunately, that's the way it is.

A few ads are going to make people leave because it may take a few extra seconds to look up FREE INFORMATION or to just browse through posts for curiouslity sakes???? Sorry, I don't believe that and never will, no matter how many people post after my post saying that they will leave. When times get better, it won't bother me to throw $6 into a hat, but a few ads won't bother me either, heck, they're everywhere these days and eventually they will be here. In a perfect world you wouldn't need them, but we don't leave in a perfect world now do we. How many would do all the work that Keith and others have done and not expect compensation?

As Todd says, it is a business and Keith and the others (Aaron, etc..) should not be doing everything for free. Heck, they have right to have free time in life like everyone else and when they are working, they should be compensated, like everyone else. Jim Becker just blows me away at how much he has given to this site and he does it out of the goodness of his heart. Heck, 1 out of every 25 or so posts are involving him (I am guessing on the amount).

So go ahead and let me have it, I can take it. But if you drive guys like Todd and others away, you will lose a big part of why this site is where it is today. If I had the extra dough, I'd pitch in an extra $6 for him in a heartbeat. Have you taken the time to look at his posts? Those guys should be exempt in my opinion for giving so much, but having ads would change everything anyways. Good luck and keep up the great work everybody! I am not trying to start anything, but just trying to get people to look at the other side of the coin.

Dave

[Gary Keedwell]

David....Sorry your not working and hope things pick up real soon. That being said, I have to disagree with alot of what you wrote. You state that people "work hard" and contribute alot of posts etc.,etc.
I don't think the people who post here really consider it "work" when they come here to contribute. This site to me is like a community where people drop in every day and see what's happening. I don't consider my time here as work but more like "pleasure". When I can help someone, I feel that I'm giving back to the woodworking community, because I have received so much. I have been woodworking for a long time now and just when I think I know it all, I will come here and be humbled.(many times;) )
I also don't think it is inevitable that Saw Mill Creek will have to rely on advertising to survive and I take umbrage at the insinuation. Sure, there are some members who can't afford to contribute, but as a community, we will reach deep into our pockets. Also, we will also help members who are having a hard time by donating money.
Lets be honest here. Really honest. Woodworking is not a hobby for dirt poor or lazy people. Most people here are hard working , energetic, honest, curious etc. People with those kind of traits usually have the money for this kind of endeavor. Remember the Wall Street article about alot of our members? I think we can maintain our independence and integrity without advertising but that is just my humble opinion.:o :)
Gary

[Dave McGeehan]

I'm either dense or in too much of a hurry (hopefully I'm not too much of either while using my tablesaw) that I never even noticed the avatars accompanying the names. Until recently, I didn't even realize this site depended on donations. Considering the wealth of info presented here in a civil manner, $6 is a real bargain.

[David Cramer]

Thank you for your kind words Gary, but I respectfully disagree.

You are taking the term "worked hard" way too literally. Keith and the others who have started this site and those who have majorly contributed with there time have "worked hard". No, I didn't say every post they made was work. Keith has had situations where things were down and yes, they worked to get the site back up and running. It didn't do it by itself. Aaron and others worked hard and used their intellect to get it where it is today.

Sorry that you don't believe it will become advertising one day, but I respectfully disagree with on that also. You don't know the answer to that anymore than I do. It's an opinion and you have the right to disagree also, that's what makes the world go around:) . I honestly don't know anything about the article in the Journal, but things rarely stay the same.

You said let's be honest. I will. I, my family and myself, are currently living check by check from my wife's job. For me to take $6 from my family during this period is not going to happen. We have a cheap internet connection so our 2 kids can do homework on it and if need be, we will cancel it and we will drive them to the nearest library. Then they will wait in line until it's their turn to use the computer for a limited number of minutes. That is as honest as I can be Gary. Next year, things might be different. But today, right now as I type this, things are the way the are. I am not proud to type what I have, but you asked. Believe it not, some people are having trouble right now and I am grateful to have an internet connection, but that might be going away soon too. Yes Gary, really.

But................... I will pay double or more when we are better off, until then, you'll have to believe what you choose to. Sorry if I come off as sounding bitter, but that is the emotionless internet to blame, not me.


Dave..........Unemployed, but grateful to have my eyesight, overall health, the drive to carrry on, and a great understanding family.

[Keith Outten]

I don't have any idea how long The Creek will remain advertising free. I have always believed that a self supporting Community was possible and although our model is different, and can be a bit of a pain in some areas, there have always been enough people here that share the same feelings so we have been able to continue without advertising. Possibly our structure will actually improve over time, if it diminishes then we will make whatever changes we must.

I wear two hats here, my first responsibility is to manage The Creek as best I can to keep us online and as healthy as possible. The chore of managing our financial situation is the least enjoyable job of all however there are many other tasks that have to be performed each day that don't show but must be done to keep things moving along. Periodically some of you need assistance so there is always email and Private messages to answer plus approving new registrations and helping those who have problems with their accounts. My second hat provides me with the same standing as everyone else here, I am a woodworker and Member of The Creek so I post, start my own threads and I have written an article. I try to participate as much as I can but I have to get my work done first before I am able to join you all out front and take part in the days activities. Some days there just isn't enough time for the fun stuff.

There isn't a doubt in anyones mind here how valuable the information contained in our Forums is and where it came from. People contribute their time and their expertise because they want to and most enjoy the act of communicating with other woodworkers. Learning from your peers is the cornerstone of public woodworking forums but without the hardware, software and the host part of the equation it all comes to an abrupt halt.

Many have openly stated that they had no idea that The Creek is a Member supported Community. They also admitted that when they visit here they go directly to their favorite forum and don't pay any attention to our Announcements or even various sticky threads in our Forums. This isn't news to me, I have known this for a very long time and have beat my head against the wall trying to find a way to communicate with this particular group. Unfortunately the largest group here falls in this category. If I ever find a way to get them to read just one announcement my sense of accomplishment would be overwhelming.

The task of dealing with troublemakers is worse than being punished. Many would try the patience of a saint and at my age I don't have enough patience nor do I even want to improve my skills in this area. There are too many of them and only one of me so as soon as an individual starts to disrupt this Community they are gone. Clearly this isn't the kindest means of dealing with these kinds of situations but given my situation and limited time it is the only way I know of to resolve a bad situation quickly. Many have advised me to post announcements and warnings to try and get people to understand this is a friendly place and that good citizenship is mandatory...read my statement again concerning the main group here that refuse to read announcements.

I just checked, right now there are 2,920 people who are awaiting email confirmation in the registration process. Most have failed to follow the directions during registration to send their code back so they can get their accounts approved. I cannot possibly help this many people get their accounts activated and at the same time help all of you active Members and Contributors. For the most part this isn't a job that can be delegated due to the level of access required and nobody will do this kind of work 7 nights a week for free. By now you can appreciate the shear volume of work going on behind the scenes here and we are growing to the tune of 1500 new Members per month. I would like to bring Dennis Peacock on as a new Administrator but I can't afford to pay him and the number of hours he would have to volunteer here would take precious time from his family, his workshop and most likely cause a loss of income. In a nutshell we have grown so fast this year we are way beyond being a fun board so we must make the transition to a commercial platform or pull the plug. I fully expect in the very near future to announce that we have hit the million hits per day level, remember that we are not talking about a simple web site that sees a lot of traffic we are a huge Community that has to have a two way communication structure and our Administrative Staff is functioning beyond capacity for volunteers. I never dreamed we would ever see this kind of activity here.

---------------------------

David, I am sorry to hear about your current employment situation and I expect everyone here will be pulling for you in hopes that good fortune comes your way. Everyone at some time in their life will experience some kind of problem that tests their metal so to speak, hang in there and stay focused there are good days ahead. Should you find yourself in a position where you need help you should know that this Community will step up and help you and your family as best we can.

.

[Don Hein]

I hope there's a good response; it's great (and I think rare) to have a high-quality forum like this uncluttered by ads. I've been on the Creek just a few months, yet information here has saved me from hours of research and trial-and-error. At an age when my life "bank" of hours is substantially depleted, I deeply appreciate anyone and any means making my remaining woodworking time more productive.

The free-stuff drawing? A very nice gesture of appreciation for support, though it probably doesn't "sell" anyone not already inclined to chip in.

Thanks.

[Keith Outten]

Keith,

I see a lot of new "2008 Contributor" titles...how we doin'? :)

Chris,

As of this morning just over 6% of our Active Members have donated.

.

[Dewayne Reding]

Too bad I had to read this thread before it occurred to me just how much money I have personally saved on Amazon deals I read about here. WAAAY more than six bucks!

[David Cramer]

I meant no harm by what I said. Gary Keedwell is a good guy and a major contributor. We just happen to disagree on what the future of this site will be, but again, that's what makes the world go around. He made me think, and hopefully I made him think. I am and always will be a realist. I just think, in the long run, it's the only way you guys will ever be fairly compensated for what you've done and continue to do on a day to day basis, including the moderators. Keeping the site going is not the same as you and others being fairly compensated.

The average person who says they'll leave, won't truly leave, at least that's my opinion. Where are they going to go to that's advertisement free? Maybe there are one or two still out there, but there ain't many, that's for sure. I can honestly say, I don't go to Woodnet but once every 2 or 3 months, if that! Why? Because I don't care for the attitudes of many of the members, who for some reason, get away with it (or at least they did when I was there). It has nothing to do with the fact that they have advertising.

Now why do I come here? BECAUSE of the members! All sites have a few jerks who will cross the line of civility, but the moderators do a great job of heading them off. If there was advertising, where would I go? Heck, it's all how you look at it. I am just grateful there's such a thing as the internet and that there are sites like sawmillcreek where you can converse with some really neat people that you'd more than likely never get a chance to converse with. It's all about being satisfied.

I swear as God is my witness, my friend's Dad down the street is blind and he just turned 77 on Oct.31st. He lost his site at about age 40 (they still don't know why) and has never seen his 3 grandsons. This man complains less than..........I won't say it. There's nothing wrong with trying to improve things, but hey, if someone is being a jerk to me on this site, no one but myself makes me respond to them. I can always ignore them and look at the 99% of decent people on this site and be grateful that the site exsists.

If Keith and whoever else decide that financially they have to go another route, I will support that guy to the end. He took the time to start the thing up, not you or me. For someone to say they'll leave because of an advertising banner, is to me, beyond silly! But to each his own.

I truly applaud you Keith for listening to the members and holding off for what I personally think is the inevitable. Again, it's just my opinion.

Please PM me with whoever gave me the 2008 title under my name. I am proud with a fault and would like to thank you or whoever did that for me. I will repay them when times get better, that I promise.

Thanks for the support and kind words about my job situation. Things will change and the Cramer Family will pull out of it. Things could be a lot worse, that I know. A friend of mine had to walk away from his house because he lost his job and he owed more on his house than what it was worth. He couldn't make the payments anymore. He, his wife and daughter moved in with his parents and he was unemployed for over a year and a half. But although he can't buy a house for x amount of years, he is now renting a house and got a great job through a family member making very good money. Things turned around for him and they will for me too. But thanks again for the kind words.

Thanks for the great site and thanks for starting it. Also, thanks to ALL of those who so kindly share their knowledge with others. Keep it to yourself and you'll lose it. Share it and you'll have it the rest of your life!

Dave

p.s. Absolutely, positively, if my name is drawn as a winner for anything, please pull another name. I am here for other reasons:) . Thank you kindly!

[Don Dean]

Todd,

It's not so much folks complaining as it is simply refusing to donate...for whatever reason. It's similar to a Baptist church (at least the ones I've belonged to) where 10% of the congregation donate 90% of the money.

There's some things I occassionally disagree with here at SMC but after thinking about it, I realized that the woodworking benefit derived from this forum far outweighs any objections I might have regarding how things are done.

Speaking for myself, I need all the help I can get when it comes to woodworking. I'll never be as talented as you but I am improving, thanks in part to knowledge I've gleaned here at SMC.

Amen brother, and 20% do 80% of the work!

[Gary Keedwell]

Chris,

As of this morning just over 6% of our Active Members have donated.

.
So Keith..how does that translate into how much $$ that has come in as to how much more we need? In other words, does it look as good as last year at this time.
Again, it can't be said enough, your doing a great job!!!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_75.gif Gary

[Gary Muto]

I'm happy to say that I sent my donation in last week. I really enjoy the site and was very willing to help.
Like many, I did not know that this was a user supported site, but I recently joined and do glance at the sticky notes from time to time.

Keep up the great work.

[Dave Sinkus]

Count me in for 2008

[Gary Keedwell]

So Keith..how does that translate into how much $$ that has come in as to how much more we need? In other words, does it look as good as last year at this time.
Again, it can't be said enough, your doing a great job!!!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_75.gif Gary
Thought I would bump this up before it hit page 2.

[charles lewis]

Sent mine today PayPal

[Keith Outten]

THanks again to all of you who have donated. We are still under 7% of our Active Members donating so every donation counts this year.

.

[Robert Wachala]

I think we have received about 25 checks, the rest have been via PayPal. I scheduled the FreeStuff Drawings to start on November 15th so that most would have plenty of opportunity to donate before the drawings started.

Donations are to support The Creek, there shouldn't be a problem financially with over 9,500 active Members here and the suggested donation of 6 bucks is low enough for a student to be able to affod to particiapate.

It is a lot of work to keep The Creek flowing plus the hours on the phone and email communications to coordinate FreeStuff Drawings. Starting this year we aren't working for free anymore, The Creek is commercially owned and operated so there should be some profit this year which is incentive for us to continue working for everyone.

FreeStuff Drawings are just an incentive for people to donate, they are not done for a fee, in fact the vendor ships directly to the winner...we don't make a penny on FreeStuff drawings. The people who win sure enjoy them though.

We have already discussed the advertising issue this year and decided not to go that route, we could move to a subscription based Forum if that is preferable to everyone. Either way we have to pay the bills and I don't see any problem with the people who use The Creek paying just over 1.5 cents per day for all the information and the friendly atmosphere.

PayPal takes about 3% of every donation made here.



Hello,

I am new user to the site and wanted to share with you how my first experience went. It may give you some insight on why you have a low registered to contributor conversion ratio.

I was looking for information on laser engraving systems and came across your forum off a google search. I was pleased to see a forum dedicated to laser engraving, and even more happy that it appeared active. I clicked right in. The first thing I noticed was the eye catching post entitled “FreeStuff Drawing from St. Louis Laser (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=68247)”.

Freestuff? What? My something for nothing reflex quickly kicked in and I followed the link, “Contributors Must Opt-In for this drawing.” My brain instantly picked out "contributor"

Contributor? Whats a contrib... Ahh, there is the catch. Must pay to be a contributor. That was the moment that you lost some creditability. If you are going to draw attention to your headline with "free" it should be free. I found that headline to be very misleading. You also have a similar issue on your main index page.

FreeStuff Drawings! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
Sawmill Creek promotional drawings - Free to Registered Members!

“Free to Registered Members!” Hey, I'm a registered member. Wait, dammit, You got me again! Takes contributor status to enter, which means I must pay. It’s just like those late night infomercials. Hey, try our product for free! It just costs you $9.95 shipping.

I understand using drawings as an incentive for people to donate and it is a very good idea. However, I was not drawn to a post that told me about being a contributor. I was drawn in with a catchy "Free" title. Don’t suck me in with thinking “free” and then ask for my money. Show me the benefits of being a contributor, show me the great active community here, then lead me over to your store and/or donation link then I don't feel like I've been mislead. I will then be more apt to pull out my credit card.


Something else you should be aware of, your donation link has no mention of a $6.00 donation. What I see is “Note: If you spend $18.00 or more in the SawmillCreek Store, you will automatically be granted Contributor Status for 2008.” You tease me with this automatic contributor status, you tell me to shop at your store. You don’t hotlink your store? Tisk, Tisk how will I spend this $18.00?


Most people would be more then happy to not only have your traffic numbers but your traffic market. You have the hard part done, and according to you, your traffic is still on a growing curve. You should be happy with your continued growth you just need to adjust your methods of generating revenue from your viewer base. Minimum I would look at some good modifications to your vbulletin so you could put a donation block in, you would be very surprised at how much more donations you get when your users see others have donated.

[Jim Becker]

Robert, thank you for pointing out that there are still some forum inconsistencies relative to things like the free stuff drawings, etc. Some of the changes recently made, in fact, have not been addressed in the software and one or more you point out are simply oversights. The requirement for contributor status to be elligable for Free Stuff drawings was effective just on 1 November, for example. But on another note, please do not think for even a split second that there is any intentional deception such as the "only $9.95 for shipping" thing you mention. Not so. Not ever.

The Sawmill Creek Store is readily accessable...it has its own forum label just like this one.

Your reminder is appreciated, however, and I hope you'll also become a contributor if you see value in the community for you.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Johnathan Bussom]

OK, I'm in!
Great forum with a lot of super people, wife just gave her 3 day notice for retirement so I better spend it while I got it!:D