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Greg Busch
11-02-2007, 6:52 PM
Well as this is my first post on this forum, so i think i'll qualfy under the "dont be too hard on the Newbie" rules (they do apply here don't they?)

So 'cmon who amongst you hasn't looked at some of these chinese websites or alibaba.com and thought 'bugger me (and i mean that in a non-kiwi way) aren't they cheap! so what gives?
I've read a lot of posts re Stepper v Servo, water v air cooled, local tech support, laser manufacturer etc, etc..
Now i know a lot (well looking at the list its probably a 95% -5%) of posters are from the USA so i can understand the predominance of Epilog / ULS et al but from down this neck of the woods its not so clear cut (surely newbies are allowed at least one pun).
So what interests me, is; How many problems do you get with an American built laser system that your average tech couldn't nut out?
Most electronic systems nowadays are simply repaired down to LRU (lowest replaceable unit) which is, of late, getting larger as technical skills drop off, so i imagine the Chinese built equipment is largely a reverse engineered US design so surely the same applies?
I appreciate the laser tube itself would be a specialist product that would have to be returned to the manufacturer but the motion sysem / power etc not too complicated?
So a chinese system with US Laser / Optics could be a feasible option? i ask this because there is such a huge difference in cost between two comparable systems that it would be fiscally irresponsible not to question why that is.
I understand GCC are Taiwanese and from what i read they are quite well recommended.
so if anyone has any experience with the "Hyundais" (Yes i know they are Korean but grant me this one) of the Laser engravers, i'd like to hear about it.
Cheers,
Buschy

Frank Corker
11-02-2007, 9:34 PM
Buschy, I'd suggest you read this thread, you'll see perfectly good reasons as to why they are so cheap..

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=67517

James Jaragosky
11-02-2007, 11:59 PM
I did the same as you. Trying to read everything I could on the U.S. Vs Asian quagmire, I decided on a rabbit.Just couldn’t understand nor justify the 11k difference in cost for the same laser purchased here.That said I haven’t received it yet, but I get to pick it up from customs Monday… and I am very excited.Remember when Japanese cars first hit the market here in the early 80’s there was a lot of resistance to them at that time, I get the feeling that this is a similar situation. Of course there is always good reason to be cautious when shelling out that kind of money. All that said, I read some great reviews on the rabbit line and the rep here spoke adequate English and he is located here in Texas. I will keep you posted on how my first week goes with this machine, it should be quite interesting I have never even seen a laser engraver work but I have run a plasma cutter in the past and the operating principle seems the same. Anyhow it will take a lot of insurmountable difficulties to make me regret saving 11 thousand dollars. If I figure my time at $20.00 an hour I can spend 13.75 weeks fixing any problems and still come out ahead of an American unit. Also replacement tubes are 1/4 the costI may regret my choice and wind up eating my words but I doubt it. Will keep you posted.

Rodne Gold
11-03-2007, 2:55 AM
I think the biggest problems with the chinese machines would be variable engraving/cutting quality , the tubes do not maintain power levels over time that are within a narrow range of when new , IE power will drop significantly over time and thus give rise to unreliable engraving and cutting if using original settings. I also forsee that mechanical performance and precision will exhibit the same characteristics as motions systems etc begin to wear.

The biggest problem of all , however is for those that own expensive mainstream machines , cos if the cheaper machines do 70% of what the expensive machines do , they will be adopted quickly by cash strapped buyers. Thus one BIG barrier to entry (price) will be removed and if the price of the capital equipment is radically reduced , so will the price one can command for a job and thus Return on investment of expensive machines will suffer.
The mainstream manufactureres need to find ways to make their machines more competitive , either better and more powerful sources and added features for the money , or drop the price. Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring the cheap machines is silly , their price will rise slightly and their quality will rise even more , ultimately making them a deadly threat to the whole industry.
Laser engravers are going the way of vinyl cutters and large format digital printers , soon everyone will have one and all will be fighting for the same slice of the pie.

Mike Null
11-03-2007, 5:23 AM
My Trotec is one of the more expensive of the lasers but I make my living with it. It is not a "toy" I have stashed out in the garage for weekend projects. It worked properly when it came out of the box and has everyday since. It also has a 3 year bumper to bumper warranty and great tech support.

The Chinese lasers do not work out of the box and some have taken weeks to get up and running. The software isn't even close to being on a par with the leading brands, tech support is non-existent, warranties seem to be 90 days, accuracy and consistency seem to be lacking in many of the machines according to reports here.

I too, would like to save 80%, but these products aren't ready for a production environment yet. Ultimately, they will force prices down, but for now, those of us whose business is lasering can't take the risk.

On the other hand, if I were a hobbyist, I'd be looking very hard at them.

Alan Case
11-03-2007, 6:05 AM
I was quoted a life on a chinese tube of between 0 and 2000 hrs.
When I queried this the answer was "well it may not work when you get it, that is why we send a spare"
I agree with the previous poster, if you are buying it to make a living and it has to be in production 8 hrs a day then buy an an American brand that is established. If you are after something to play around with as a hobby then the choice is yours.

Regards Alan Case

Scott Shepherd
11-03-2007, 8:49 AM
If I figure my time at $20.00 an hour I can spend 13.75 weeks fixing any problems and still come out ahead of an American unit.

Call me when you have spent 13.75 weeks working on your machine and let me know how your customers appreciate that level of service. I'm with Mike, we bought a higher end machine for a reason. We are in business to deliver product to customers (thought we are all in that business). If the covers are off and I'm working on it, then we lose twice (if not more). We lose a minimum of $120 per hour for our laser time, and we lose the time I could be working on something else, like artwork for another project or vinyl work ($60 per hour or more). So by my math, if you'd lose $150 for every hour, then you end up with 70 hours being the "break even point", not 13.75 weeks. Rest assured, you'll probably spent close to that. So have you really saved? We just finished running a large job and the rate ended up being almost $400 per hour. Figure at that rate and you have even less. I honestly think you're looking at it from the wrong end. It's not about how much you save, it's about how much you won't make. Every hour it's down you're not making money. If it's down a week, you could easily lose $5K worth of business, and if you need a part, it's going to take you a week or more to get it.

We depend on our laser to make a living. That means we need stability, reliability, quality, and support. Having something go down and not knowing when it'll be running again is unacceptable to our level of service. We simply can't have our machine down for a week or more to get the issues worked out. If you read the posts owners have posted, you'll see they are often down for extended periods of time.

I didn't buy a laser to enter into a correspondence class on how to become a electronics technician. I bought it to make money. If I'm working on the machine, then I'm losing money at a rate that's not worth the risk, not to mention, I'm delaying customer orders. Without customers (who in case you haven't noticed lately, want everything tomorrow), we have no business.

Darren Null
11-03-2007, 9:03 AM
GCC is Tiawanese, but they use American (Synrad) laser units. Proper, metal lasers, in other words. Most of the cheap Chinese contenders use the glass-tube-type lasers which 1) Have a considerably lower shelf life (~2000 hours if you're lucky, I believe) 2) Can't be re-gassed and 3) Do not have a very steady power output (I'm told) compared with with metal Synrad-type units.

That's leaving aside all questions of the head-tracking gear and software compatibility.

In theory, there's nothing stopping you replacing the glass tube with a Synrad (or comparable) unit (and sling in a compatible power pack for the laser) BUT you'll have to rebuild the whole laser-control part of the machine so it works with your new unit. If that is closely integrated with the electronics that move the head around (and I suspect it is) then -basically- you'll be replacing ALL the electronics and getting them to talk to the (possibly custom) head-moving machinery.

Or (again in theory), you could take the current laser-control-out signal and put some sort of interpreter board to feed the new laser a signal it's happy with.

Either option would scare the pants off me if it's my money I'm playing with; but doable in theory if you're an electronics whiz.

Redsail and Rabbit of the Chinese manufacturers seem to be getting some happy feedback, but it's definitely worth hitting the search function of this board and the rest of the interweb to find out more before spending out.

As a comparison, my family have all got cheapo chinese iPod nano clone MP3 players. I ended up buying 6 to get 4 working ones. I did save money over buying 4 genuine iPods and in general we're all happy BUT the software is glitchy and hastily produced and they only function properly once you've mastered their little idiosyncracies. Different idiosyncracies for each of the 4 players, I might add. The chinese laser experience seems to be a very similar lottery, if what I've read is correct. You pays your money: you can get a perfect runner with no problems whatsoever; you can get one that you can work with after you've argued with it a bit and you can get a total lemon.

Mitchell Andrus
11-03-2007, 9:29 AM
I'm in Scott's boat. I spent a few extra $ on a machine that was bigger than I thought I needed (I was wrong, I needed it), and more expensive than I thought I could afford - wrong again.

18 months ago I spent $20K+ on my Spirit and it's about 2/3 paid for without one minute of down time.

Could I have spent half the money and gotten the same performance? Not likely... When I needed a new table saw, I didn't buy a cheaper table-top portable model.

When I buy a tool to make money... money is not a consideration.

Mike Hood
11-03-2007, 10:25 AM
Just couldn’t understand nor justify the 11k difference in cost for the same laser purchased here.

Perhaps the glass tubes that are built in a back-alley shop in Xi'An China would be your first clue. ISO 9001:2000 certification isn't cheap...


… and I am very excited.Remember when Japanese cars first hit the market here in the early 80’s there was a lot of resistance to them at that time, I get the feeling that this is a similar situation.

It's not. Glass tube lasers are old technology... not new. Metal tubes are serviceable for a reason.


If I figure my time at $20.00 an hour I can spend 13.75 weeks fixing any problems and still come out ahead of an American unit.

I figure my shop time at $65 an hour. I get that PLUS the laser time ($2.00 - $2.50 /min). My Explorer (Pinnacle ZX) is just over a year old and has easily 1/2 paid for itself.



Also replacement tubes are 1/4 the cost I may regret my choice and wind up eating my words but I doubt it.

I'll never need to replace mine, just service the gas and get back to work. They're always serviceable and aren't "throw-away" parts like what you're getting into.

I hope you're right and get a good value, but if you're looking for justification after the fact, I suspect you won't find the large savings in the long run, and most of us are invested for the long haul on these.

Skip Weiser
11-03-2007, 10:36 AM
Just for the record...

According to Photovac Laser in Ohio, they have had good luck re-gassing the Chinese laser tubes. They guarantee them for 1 year but they said they should last longer than that. They charge $1200.00 for the service.

Micheal Donnellan
11-03-2007, 10:59 AM
Regarding alibaba.com, I placed ad on it ages agon and got 20 different companies emailing me a big difference in price and english ability. Also some of them will not stop sending me messages despite being told to do so. I have gone for a lg900 from wklaser. Did not go for them from alibaba.com but because they got good remarks on another forum. The other companies I got emailed from has mixed results in regards their reputation. I am waiting for the machine to be delivered and then the trouble of fitting it and getting it to work starts. I can't pay the big prices for the proper machines but should be able to get somewhere with this machine.

Mike Hood
11-03-2007, 11:01 AM
... they have had good luck re-gassing the Chinese laser tubes.

I need guarantees in this world... not luck.

If it's not designed to be serviceable WHEN the gas gives up... it's of no interest to me.

I design airplanes for a living. I can't see my hard earned dollars chasing a disposable laser tube.

Bill Cunningham
11-03-2007, 11:12 AM
For those of us outside of the U.S.A., American lasers 'should' be coming WAY down in price.. 4 years ago, I paid 17k for a laser that sells for 14k in the U.S. now, thanks to a much weaker U.S. dollar on the world market, the 14k US$ laser should be about 13.5k Canadian or 3-4k cheaper that what I paid 4 years ago.. Providing of course that the Canadian distributors pass their saving on to their Canadian buyers. If they don't then the distributors that do, will reap the rewards.. Since the Canadian dollar passed the U.S.$ in value over the last few months, there has been a bit of a groundswell of customers that are sick of paying the traditional 30%-40% more, for no other reason than they are 'Canadian buyers'. The time for Canadian distributors of American products to quit marketing products with the unspoken motto "The Customer is Always Ripe" has just passed.. Until prices start to normalize between our two countries, a LOT of Canadians will be internet shopping, and buying their supplies direct from American distributors. For those of you in the U.S.A., you should expect to be shipping more stuff north anytime now...

Darren Null
11-03-2007, 11:44 AM
$1,200 to regas a $200-$400 glass tube laser?

Rodne Gold
11-03-2007, 12:52 PM
i must tell you , I got quoted $4500 all in for a 1200 x 800 machine (less than 5 large) and tubes , 80w were quoted at 295 each.
This is WAY cheaper than any large format tabled machine and even if it had to deliver 1/2 its power it would still be a good buy for non critical cutting jobs. If it lasted a year , it would be good.
I wouldn't get it as a solo machine , but to compliment my better machines. At that price im real tempted to take a chance. I recon give it 6 months to a yr and they will have improved a lot in all respects.
I'm also sure the chinese will not be able to undercut the west to such a large extent in the next 5 yrs as the realities of capitalism and globalism catch up.

Scott Shepherd
11-03-2007, 1:30 PM
Exactly my point Rodne, you're one of the few people on here who have multiple lasers, so if one craps out, you have options.

It really depends on your business situation, I believe. If you cut model parts out to sell yourself, then it doesn't matter if it's down for 2 weeks. However, if you have a business where customers expect things tomorrow or the next day, and something happens, you WILL lose customers. In this market, it doesn't take much for someone to use another vendor. I do my best every day to try and not give them a reason to shop elsewhere.

When I use to work on the shop floor in manufacturing, I used to spend $150 a pair on boots (in the last 80's, early 90's). I bought them because I stood on concrete all day long and they were darn comfortable and kept my back from hurting, along with the rest of my body.

The guys I always worked with would go to Wal-Mart, K-Mart, and everywhere else cheap and buy a pair for $30. They'd come in and brag about how cheap their boots were and how I was an idiot for wasting my money on boots. Funny, they always complained about their feet hurting, their backs hurting, and where always worn out at the end of the day.

I learned my lesson then, if you need it for work, to make a living, then it's worth the extra money regardless of how tempting the "cheap boots" are.

Just my belief, doesn't make it right or wrong.

Skip Weiser
11-03-2007, 5:39 PM
I need guarantees in this world... not luck.

If it's not designed to be serviceable WHEN the gas gives up... it's of no interest to me.

I design airplanes for a living. I can't see my hard earned dollars chasing a disposable laser tube.

Okay, poor choice of words on my part, I apologize. They have had good results re-gassing the tubes. How's that? And they are guaranteed for 1 year.

There are many things made today that aren't "designed" to be serviceable, but they actually are if you know how. Apparently Photovac Laser is in that category.

Look, if I made your wages I could afford all those high price machines too, but I don't, and I can't. Don't begrudge the little guy that's just trying to make a living and sees the Chinese lasers as a way to maybe offer more services with a very low purchase price. Believe me, I don't want to chase a disposable laser tube either. But if it's a choice between that or nothing, I'm going for it.

Yes, $1200.00 does seem a little steep for a re-gass. I guess it all depends on how much you use your machine and how many tubes you go through in a year as to whether it's worth it or not.

I imported a machine from wklaser in China. Just got it a couple of months ago. It's the LC6090 80w model. It's got a 3' x 2' motorized table, rotary, USB option, and a chiller for about 6 grand. It's a damn fine machine for the price. I would have loved to have an Epilog or ULS or one of the other top of the line machines but I just couldn't swing it. I'm just trying to do the best I can with what I have to work with financially.

Thanks,
Skip

James Jaragosky
11-03-2007, 8:15 PM
Call me when you have spent 13.75 weeks working on your machine and let me know how your customers appreciate that level of service. I'm with Mike, we bought a higher end machine for a reason. We are in business to deliver product to customers (thought we are all in that business). If the covers are off and I'm working on it, then we lose twice (if not more). We lose a minimum of $120 per hour for our laser time, and we lose the time I could be working on something else, like artwork for another project or vinyl work ($60 per hour or more). So by my math, if you'd lose $150 for every hour, then you end up with 70 hours being the "break even point", not 13.75 weeks. Rest assured, you'll probably spent close to that. So have you really saved? We just finished running a large job and the rate ended up being almost $400 per hour. Figure at that rate and you have even less. I honestly think you're looking at it from the wrong end. It's not about how much you save, it's about how much you won't make. Every hour it's down you're not making money. If it's down a week, you could easily lose $5K worth of business, and if you need a part, it's going to take you a week or more to get it.

We depend on our laser to make a living. That means we need stability, reliability, quality, and support. Having something go down and not knowing when it'll be running again is unacceptable to our level of service. We simply can't have our machine down for a week or more to get the issues worked out. If you read the posts owners have posted, you'll see they are often down for extended periods of time.

I didn't buy a laser to enter into a correspondence class on how to become a electronics technician. I bought it to make money. If I'm working on the machine, then I'm losing money at a rate that's not worth the risk, not to mention, I'm delaying customer orders. Without customers (who in case you haven't noticed lately, want everything tomorrow), we have no business.
WOW sounds like I hit a nerve. My comment was meant for a fellow newbie in a quandary similar to my own.
How do I address all this anger?
First off if you want a U.S. made laser and can afford one I recommend that you get one.
As for what anyone charges for their machine time that is very subjective.
I only except to spent time overcoming difficulties in the setup phase of this purchase.
Almost all the negative comments I have read about Asian machines are focused at this point,
I have seen very few negative comments about the function of Asian lasers after setup.
As far as metal tubes go they can be purchased for Asian machines
And why would I want to recharge a tube for $1200 when I can get a new one for $300
Excepted Life is 800 to 1000 hrs.
As far as quality of cutting or engraving is concerned, please provide you’re first hand experience with owning or operating an Asian laser.
I would suspect that most people that posted negatively here for this have little firsthand experience using an Asian produced laser and are just regurgitating the information their current suppliers sales staff is feeding them.
As far as lasers being old technology. Cars were old technology in 1980 but U.S car makers, dealers reacted the same way. first they said that the foreign cars were poorly made then they said were unsafe (by the way this was coming from companies that were selling vega’s and pinto’s). And when all that didn’t fool the public they appealed to our patriotism and simply said buy American.
Well we all know the outcome to this story, foreign cars are as well made and safe as American produced cars. And in some cases better.
But I digress, you all missed my excitement and good intentions in sharing my thought process (or justification as one poster framed it) with a kindred soul as it were, and attacked me for no better reason than to make your self’s feel better and me feel belittled.
Most of the posts I see on this forum are people genuinely trying to help each other at all levels of experience, crafters to true full time businesses professionals. that is what attracted me to this forum the good people. What I would like to have heard is.. hey Jim those Asian lasers may be more trouble than their worth in savings or hey Jim we have heard some poor reports on Asian lasers. Or watch out you usually get what you pay for.
But what I got was something along the lines of hey Jim you fool who do you think you are to share your opinion with us.
Well let me answer that question I am just an over enthusiastic new comer looking to learn and share
Experiences and knowledge freely, without stepping on anyone’s toes. It would appear that I failed this time, I apologize. I hope that all is forgiven.
Your laser is bigger than my laser
Hope that makes you feels better.
For those of you that didn’t get miffed by my post and genuinely posted constructive comments, thank you, and thanks for continuing the fine tradition of this site.
Respectfully James R. Jaragosky

Scott Shepherd
11-03-2007, 9:05 PM
James, as you quoted my post and then mentioned all the anger, let me start by saying that if you read that as anger from me, then you read it differently than I typed it. There is no anger in my tone, voice, or text.

I do seem to recall saying "Depending on what you plan to use it for". I think that pretty much leaves the door wide open saying that it might be perfect for what you plan to use it for, or it might not. That's my take and opinion on it in case you included me as someone ranting about how poor they are.

I gave you honest feedback about my business. My laser cannot be down for days, a week, or two weeks. I'm simply not setup to run that way. Therefore, I need, as I said, reliability and service. I've spent countless hours reading stories of people who have bought Chinese lasers. They range from people who have had no problems to people who have had them for more than a month and still can't get them to run. There are people who have had to rewire the machine just to get it to work. So I'm not making things up, you asked for input, and I'm telling you what I have read. Not sure how that's ranting or being negative.

I do believe you are looking at it from the wrong angle when you stated you can work on it for 13 weeks and still break even. I know you don't plan to do so. Trust me, I had a brand name laser and I spent weeks and weeks and weeks trying to get it to work properly, so I do have a load of experience when it comes to the machine not working properly and watching the jobs pile up. Having gone through that experience, I learned a lot. I learned I don't want to work on lasers that I paid good money for, and I shouldn't be expected to. And every hour I was working on it was an hour lost of sellable time. Not a good business practice for me.

If you'd like to have a go at it, go for it, knock yourself out. I have no belief I'll change your mind, nor do I wish to. I simply said that the way you decide whether it's a good value or not is a measure of what you plan to do with it, not whether or not it costs "X" thousands of dollars less.

I personally use CorelDraw, and it's all I know at this point. Buying a laser that won't use it, or use it cleanly, isn't something I personally would consider at this point. But that's me, and that's for the needs I have for my business. If you needs are different and they fit you, by all means, knock yourself out.

I hope that clears up my earlier post. Trust me, there's no anger, just trying, like you, to have a discussion and show some different angles to look at it from. From my perspective, what you buy all depends on what you plan to do with it and how you run your business. You've stated neither, so I don't know if it would be a great bargain for you or not. I have simply tried to give you some other things to think about, other than the sticker price.

As for those who keep bringing up Import cars, need we take a trip down Yugo lane :D (yes, that was a joke, or intended to be one).

I own a Chinese plotter, so if you think I'm bashing the Chinese products (which I'm not), then you are mistaken. I own one. It's made me a lot of money. It's also been down a week waiting for parts in the past. I've experienced contacting the seller for support to have them say "Never seen that before, I have no idea". I've experienced calling for tech support and getting voice mail which gets returned several DAYS later. I've experienced asking to have parts next day aired to be told "We don't do that". These are real things you have to decide whether or not they will fit your needs. Good thing about that is that there are 10 shops within 5 miles I can take my vinyl work to (i'd rather not), but no one I want to take my laser work to. It does exactly what I expected it to do, the service level and support is exactly what I expected it to be (not next day). I knew it going into the purchase, so it's done all I expected it to do, and we have planned for it. Had I bought it expecting superior service and support than I'd not be happy, but I didn't buy it with those expectations.

All better now? :)

Darren Null
11-03-2007, 10:30 PM
In defence of Scott; when you're actually doing it things are a little different to the theory.

Once you have your customers (a long story in itself), they all want their product yesterday. That's what customers do- doesn't matter what service or product you're supplying. Then you have the materials you're lasering- not cheap and there's time needed to get the materials to you...so at any given time there's a certain amount of cash up in the air as you've paid for stuff that's on it's way to you. Then there's the seasonal factor- if you're in the personalised gift biz and your machine goes down for 2 weeks on the 1st of December you're going to be skint for the whole following year. And you've still got to budget time for the design and to chase new customers and hopefully have some sort of a life betweentimes.

If you're a hobbyist burning at weekends with a main income from somewhere else, you can afford serious downtime. Similarly if you can afford multiple machines, you can cope with one of them going down for a time.

If one machine is providing your income, you CAN'T afford for it to go down for any length of time. Quite aside from the income lost, you have to break promises that you've made because you cannot now physically complete the tasks that you said you'd do. That makes you look like a muppet and may take quite some time to catch up on one days' downtime. If it happens twice and your customers start spouting about your unreliability...you're screwed.

My machine is a repossession GCC, so it's sort of Asian. As it's a repossession, I'm theoretically entitled to no support at all from anyone. The laser stopped working (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=65590), and thanks to the combined efforts of people here at SMC and tech support at Synrad I got going again in fairly short order. What I learned from the experience is that all my lasers in the future are going to have a Synrad laser unit in. I'm still waiting for a response from GCC to my initial 'HELLLP!' call (filled out the tech support form on their website with my registered name and serial number and everything).
GCC is Tiawanese, not Chinese, and I didn't put in the above paragraph to slate Asian companies: rather to say that the support I got from Synrad was so far above my expectations (GCC is an OEM customer of Synrad so Synrad are not in any way obliged to take any of GCC's fallout) that I wouldn't now buy any other brand of laser unit. And I'm pretty confident that I wouldn't get that level of service elsewhere...particularly out of warranty.

@Skip- I didn't say that it seemed expensive- it strikes me that cracking regassing and sealing a glass tube would be quite a tricky job. You're looking at something like (not much) change from $1000 for regassing a metal tube, so it's comparable. But if the tubes only cost up to $400, then why would you get it regassed for $1200? I'd buy 3 new ones.

Mike Null
11-03-2007, 11:03 PM
James

I guess I missed the anger of responses that you described even though I re-read them. What I saw was a lot of people who have a legitimate opinion regarding their own purchase decisions.

If you think those who voiced concerns about performance issues related to Chinese made lasers are uninformed then i suggest you use the search function in the menu bar and check out all the posts on Chinese lasers. If you do that you will find exactly what has been described but it has been posted by owners of Chinese lasers.

In fairness, I think if you asked all of them whether they'd buy another most would say yes. You simply have to be prepared to deal with installation and performance issues until you can get them resolved.

We are here for the purpose of helping each other and i assure you we are all hoping you have good luck with your purchase and that you'll share your experiences with us.

Micheal Donnellan
11-03-2007, 11:09 PM
their cheap! buy two and hope murphy wont show up

Craig Hogarth
11-04-2007, 1:13 AM
v
As for those who keep bringing up Import cars, need we take a trip down Yugo lane :D (yes, that was a joke, or intended to be one).


I don't understand why everyone's comparing it to foreign cars of years past. I bought a kia in 96, piece of trash. I bet if it were running today, it'd still be a piece of trash.

Bob Davis
11-04-2007, 3:24 AM
I'm all for saving money, but when I buy a laser for my business the objective is not to save money, it's to make money. A machine that is faster, more reliable, better supported, less troublesome and easier to use is ticking all the boxes. For professional and commercial use the price is way down the list (but of course is still a factor.)
If you can't do it any other way, I guess you've got to do it the way you can. But I doubt anyone would try to enter the interstate trucking market with a small hatchback vehicle and hope to be competitive. The industry can be very rewarding for competent and capable players, but having the right tools is vital. I firmly believe that if you can't do it on a strong and viable commercial basis you shouldn't do it at all, and realisticly the cost of this equipment is not high by most business standards, and in fact is very cheap.
On a diferent note, what would a 75w Epilog Helix cost in the US? I'm being quoted $40k Australian + tax with the Aus Dollar at $0.92US. I've got a feeling I'm being nailed.

Nancy Laird
11-04-2007, 4:58 AM
My 1996 model ULS M-20 is still going strong---ON ITS ORIGINAL TUBE. When anyone else's laser does that, start bragging. I'll brag all day and night long about my ULS - and I'll wait for you folks who buy Chinese lasers to do the same. I'm making money with my two ULS machines, because they are faster, reliable, easy to use, and I have a good support network available at my fingertips if needed. The Chinese lasers and their software have a HUGE learning curve and--so far--a not-so-great track record. You know the old adage that you get what you pay for? I'm just waiting to see if the buyers of Chinese lasers feel that they are getting value for low bucks.

Nancy (47 days)

David Hirschfield
11-04-2007, 5:58 AM
Buschy, I'd suggest you read this thread, you'll see perfectly good reasons as to why they are so cheap..

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=67517

Frank, I owned an Audi that gave me nothing but trouble from day one...and, the service department was unresponsive and wouldn't admit to me that the problem was design related. My point is, don't paint all Chinese manufacturers with the same brush. I own a Rabbit HX 6090SE that has been running for almost 10 months and I am happy with it. If piece of mind comes from paying thousands for aftersale service, so be it. Yes, they are built cheaper, but I chose to put the extra 20 grand into my business where I believe I can get better return.

When I have extra revenue in the future and more than likely less time, yes, I may consider the expensive option. Don't mean to beat you up over this except it gets a bit tiring when the default position is to point to a weak link and condemn all manufacturers. Cavieat Emptor. I checked them out and stayed away from the manufacturer in question because of horror stories.

I'd venture to say that 90% of small appliances in our homes are made in China. Do we throw those out because we find a badly manufactured and designed one in the stores? I sometimes wished I had bought a Hyundai and left the Audi alone.

David Hirschfield
11-04-2007, 6:43 AM
GCC is Tiawanese, but they use American (Synrad) laser units. Proper, metal lasers, in other words. Most of the cheap Chinese contenders use the glass-tube-type lasers which 1) Have a considerably lower shelf life (~2000 hours if you're lucky, I believe) 2) Can't be re-gassed and 3) Do not have a very steady power output (I'm told) compared with with metal Synrad-type units.

That's leaving aside all questions of the head-tracking gear and software compatibility.

In theory, there's nothing stopping you replacing the glass tube with a Synrad (or comparable) unit (and sling in a compatible power pack for the laser) BUT you'll have to rebuild the whole laser-control part of the machine so it works with your new unit. If that is closely integrated with the electronics that move the head around (and I suspect it is) then -basically- you'll be replacing ALL the electronics and getting them to talk to the (possibly custom) head-moving machinery.

Or (again in theory), you could take the current laser-control-out signal and put some sort of interpreter board to feed the new laser a signal it's happy with.

Either option would scare the pants off me if it's my money I'm playing with; but doable in theory if you're an electronics whiz.

Redsail and Rabbit of the Chinese manufacturers seem to be getting some happy feedback, but it's definitely worth hitting the search function of this board and the rest of the interweb to find out more before spending out.

As a comparison, my family have all got cheapo chinese iPod nano clone MP3 players. I ended up buying 6 to get 4 working ones. I did save money over buying 4 genuine iPods and in general we're all happy BUT the software is glitchy and hastily produced and they only function properly once you've mastered their little idiosyncracies. Different idiosyncracies for each of the 4 players, I might add. The chinese laser experience seems to be a very similar lottery, if what I've read is correct. You pays your money: you can get a perfect runner with no problems whatsoever; you can get one that you can work with after you've argued with it a bit and you can get a total lemon.


I think the biggest problems with the chinese machines would be variable engraving/cutting quality , the tubes do not maintain power levels over time that are within a narrow range of when new , IE power will drop significantly over time and thus give rise to unreliable engraving and cutting if using original settings. I also forsee that mechanical performance and precision will exhibit the same characteristics as motions systems etc begin to wear.

The biggest problem of all , however is for those that own expensive mainstream machines , cos if the cheaper machines do 70% of what the expensive machines do , they will be adopted quickly by cash strapped buyers. Thus one BIG barrier to entry (price) will be removed and if the price of the capital equipment is radically reduced , so will the price one can command for a job and thus Return on investment of expensive machines will suffer.
The mainstream manufactureres need to find ways to make their machines more competitive , either better and more powerful sources and added features for the money , or drop the price. Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring the cheap machines is silly , their price will rise slightly and their quality will rise even more , ultimately making them a deadly threat to the whole industry.
Laser engravers are going the way of vinyl cutters and large format digital printers , soon everyone will have one and all will be fighting for the same slice of the pie.

Rodney, as an owner of a Rabbit machine, I agree with you 100%. I'd rather be in business with a Chinese machine now than with one costing 4 or 5 times as much in two years. And yes, my competition is paying off expensive bank loans and has to compete with me who have much lower overheads. It reflects in my pricing.

The real question is, that one shouldn't sell the production method but the product. I know I don't have to tell you this because I have read your posts about it. If one bases ones business model on simply owning the newest machinery, then the business will ultimately fail as machinery production costs drop and everybody has it. The days of owning the only printing press in the frontier town are over. If you want to sell laser time then fine, but that's an easy product to duplicate and the market is extremely elastic.

The answer, to me is to sell specialty, value added products. This too, you have written about. We pitch our services as industrial design services with in house production capabilities. Our market is custom POP displays and in-store branding and our aim is to produce quality designs in small quantities of 10 - 100. We can provide a product that is unique because we sell our years of design experience and not the fact that they are laser cut. That helps keep production costs down. Our clients simply don't care how we make their products. It makes a nice hook when marketing but in the end, they care about what we can design for them and how it increased brand and product visibility.

The downside of our product is time to production but we charge for design time and prototypes if quantities are small and will typically offset those costs against larger orders. We do sell other "engraving" services like ceramic and marble murals which are a specialty item but once again, we sell our design sensibilities and design experience in that industry with our products.

So, if a new "Laser Engraving Service" opens next door to me, I'm happy for him because I know he is not in competition with me. Who knows, maybe I can subcontract overflow parts out to him on his expensive machine. Let someone else carry the bank loans. I just don't see any money in laser engraving dog tags and pens. And more than likely, someone else is doing it more cost effectively than we can and can beat our price. Fewer people can duplicate what we do.

David Hirschfield
11-04-2007, 7:24 AM
James, congrats on purchasing your new Rabbit laser. I have the HX6090SE and after setup, it works fine. Once you are familiar with the range of settings etc, it will do the job for you. If you have any questions on the machine and setup, drop me a line or PM me and I will be glad help. If you are concerned about replacement parts and down times, get an extra laser tube or maybe power supply.

To stray from topic a bit; I will use digital SLR cameras as a parallel. I opted to buy a Pentax which has been extensively reviewed and gives equal or better photos to similar prices Canon or Nikon cameras. Some argue even better. People that have payed twice as much for their brands constantly put my camera down because it's "not professional". No one can tell from the product which machine the piece was engraved or made on.

Why do we constantly compare machines and not objectively compare end products? I venture to say there is very little difference seeing the human eye has difficulty resolving 5 lines per millimeter from a couple of feet away.

For some human reason, we simply need to keep justifying our purchases to ourselves. Unfortunately for us, the process sometimes involves others. :)

David

Scott Shepherd
11-04-2007, 7:56 AM
Why do we constantly compare machines and not objectively compare end products? I venture to say there is very little difference seeing the human eye has difficulty resolving 5 lines per millimeter from a couple of feet away.

For some human reason, we simply need to keep justifying our purchases to ourselves. Unfortunately for us, the process sometimes involves others. :)

David

While true, it's also only one factor in the process. If the process to make the same product takes twice as long, then certainly one has a competitive advantage over the other. If you believe end product is equal, then performance would be the next logical step in decision making. If a machine cost you $5000 less, but runs 1/2 the speed, have you really saved anything? Again, it depends on what you plan to do with it and what type of business you plan to run.

Keith Outten
11-04-2007, 9:06 AM
Bare in mind folks that inexpensive laser engravers will allow customers to purchase their own machines and the amount of work will decline over time. It is best that everyone prepare for changes that are coming to the industry.

The cost of your equipment is not your largest business expense. Labor in the USA and the tax burden we must all support makes us less competitive in the world marketplace. There are a number of industries that have already been overwhelmed by countries with cheap labor. Of course when your customers are purchasing their own lasers your labor rate may be the least of your problems.

.

Mike Hood
11-04-2007, 9:55 AM
I actually spoke to my #1 customer about this very issue. He designs and builds UAS/UAV (Unmanned Aerial Systems / Unmanned Aerial Systems) and I do all of his kitting. He's looking at ways to cut his costs and was speaking candidly with me about it.
I actually suggested he look into purchasing his own machine, but was surprised to hear that even though he's paid better than half my machine's total cost this year alone, it's still cheaper to him to farm the work to me.

He mentioned a couple of interesting points.

- I have to keep the machine busy to protect my capital investment
- I have to house, power and insure the machine
- I have the learning curve behind me (hundreds of hours ON the machine)
- My labor stops when I turn the machine off. His operator is on the clock.

Each of his planes cost $20 or so and I'm a good 10% built into that cost, but thats a SMALL number compared to his total overhead. I'm not worried about losing him at all and my other customers aren't much different.

I don't think cheaper lasers are a threat if you have a business model/plan that works now.

Jeanette Brewer
11-05-2007, 12:21 PM
On a diferent note, what would a 75w Epilog Helix cost in the US? I'm being quoted $40k Australian + tax with the Aus Dollar at $0.92US. I've got a feeling I'm being nailed.

Bob,

$25,900 US

Rob Bosworth
11-06-2007, 11:43 AM
Back in 1983, I worked for a company that made laser engraving machines here in the U.S. Being the dynamic company that we were, we paid a marketing specialist to look into the laser engraving machine business and give us a direction for the future. After paying this fellow a TON of money, he came back with a report that said the laser engraving industry would be completely saturated when there were 100 companies in the World with laser engraving machines. So we rethought our position and put our emphasis into other areas. OOOOOOPPPPPPSSSSSS. Turns out that marketing guru was not quite spot on.

New processes, new materials, new products and NEW IDEAS keep coming up everyday. Rather than sit and think about the saturation point, let's keep driving ahead and let our imaginations be our biggest limiting factor.

Mark Winlund
02-23-2008, 4:23 PM
I'm all for saving money, but when I buy a laser for my business the objective is not to save money, it's to make money. A machine that is faster, more reliable, better supported, less troublesome and easier to use is ticking all the boxes. For professional and commercial use the price is way down the list (but of course is still a factor.)
If you can't do it any other way, I guess you've got to do it the way you can. But I doubt anyone would try to enter the interstate trucking market with a small hatchback vehicle and hope to be competitive. The industry can be very rewarding for competent and capable players, but having the right tools is vital. I firmly believe that if you can't do it on a strong and viable commercial basis you shouldn't do it at all, and realistically the cost of this equipment is not high by most business standards, and in fact is very cheap.
.

There's a lot of experienced people on this forum, and Bob is one of them.

Chinese laser = hobby (at this point in time).

My ULS is about 5 years old, cost $41,000 USD. It has never broken down, and makes me money whenever I turn it on. It's the only one I have, so I need it to work. Every time.

I get a chuckle each time I read about someone that is going to "convert the glass tube to a metal one", "build my own", "write my own software", etc. These people are not in the engraving business, they are in the laser building business.


Mark

Eric Fuller
02-23-2008, 6:07 PM
Chinese laser = hobby (at this point in time).


Very presumptive (not to mention condescending) of you, and I suspect there are a ton of people on this forum who could prove you wrong if they wanted to bother.

But whatever makes you feel better I suppose...

Scott Shepherd
02-23-2008, 8:03 PM
I suspect there are a ton of people on this forum who could prove you wrong if they wanted to bother.

And I suspect you are wrong. There are a small number of people on here with Chinese lasers and only a couple of them are using them in full time businesses where they DEPEND on the machine to make a living. My laser can't be down for 3 days, a week, 2 weeks, or a month waiting for a part and I certainly have no desire to set my alarm clock for 2am, get out of bed, drive to work so I can be at the machine when I finally get to their tech support in China.

Interesting how it's those of us who have paid for all the support and product who are constantly asked for help in getting their machines working and trying to understand even simple things like how to focus it. We paid for that information, yet we give it to people like you for free on a daily basis. We could be jerks and stay silent or say "Call China and ask them" or "you get what you pay for", but we don't. Day after day we all help everyone on this forum, regardless of what machine they bought, even though we paid for the machine, the support, the manuals, etc.

Mark Winlund
02-23-2008, 8:22 PM
And I suspect you are wrong. There are a small number of people on here with Chinese lasers and only a couple of them are using them in full time businesses where they DEPEND on the machine to make a living. My laser can't be down for 3 days, a week, 2 weeks, or a month waiting for a part and I certainly have no desire to set my alarm clock for 2am, get out of bed, drive to work so I can be at the machine when I finally get to their tech support in China.

Interesting how it's those of us who have paid for all the support and product who are constantly asked for help in getting their machines working and trying to understand even simple things like how to focus it. We paid for that information, yet we give it to people like you for free on a daily basis. We could be jerks and stay silent or say "Call China and ask them" or "you get what you pay for", but we don't. Day after day we all help everyone on this forum, regardless of what machine they bought, even though we paid for the machine, the support, the manuals, etc.


Well said. I also hear frequently "I could buy three lasers for what you paid for yours".... what they don't mention is that they will need to buy three chinese lasers just to keep one running. Not to mention getting it to work with Corel...

Mark

Mike Null
02-23-2008, 8:46 PM
We have at least two categories of members on this laser forum. Those who use their machines in pursuit of their livlihood and those who don't. I can't fathom one who makes his livlihood with a laser engraver buying something of questionable reiability.

I'm on my second machine. My first, a ULS is still operating. I replaced a tube in the 36th month of warranty at no cost and it was still operating when I sold 5 years later to buy a bigger, faster machine. There were no software issues and only one day of actual down time for the tube replacement.

My new machine is a Trotec and I have had no down time with it either in a little over a year and a half.

Lucky for me because my customers don't want excuses.

If you don't make your living with the laser then any comparison you want to make or that makes you feel good aboout it is ok. But if you're making your living with it you can throw all those comparisons out the window.

Greg Busch
02-24-2008, 9:48 AM
Mike,

There is also another categorie of user, one that is dipping their toe in the industry and wants to minimise initial outlay until they get a better feel for the market.

That being said, when i first started this thread i wanted to get as much feedback as possible on the pros and cons of the various machines including the chinese options.
There will always be a case for and against any piece of equipment which eventually comes down to the end user and what they are doing with it.

To state simply that "chinese=hobby" may hold sway in the States due to the lack of technical support and spares but judging by the volume of engraved product coming out of China i imagine no-one has told them over there that they are working on hobby machines, the fact they can get spares and back-up quite readily makes them as productive as the US built machines do for most of you.
Here in Australia we share simlilar time zones with China so that works in our favour, there is still the tyranny of distance but as more machines are shipped here the spares base will also increase locally, as will technical support.

for me, going for the Chinese built machine was a no brainer as my families diet does not depend on this, that coupled with the fact we have no local industry to protect means zero import tarriff so importation was reasonable (except for the bloody stevedores who charge more to forklift the crates 500metres than it costs to ship it around the pacific!) I like many others also bought spares, i'll be interested to see the shelf life of the spare glass tube (assuming the fitted one lasts long enough)

Mark, you posted:

"I get a chuckle each time I read about someone that is going to "convert the glass tube to a metal one", "build my own", "write my own software", etc. These people are not in the engraving business, they are in the laser building business."

Maybe thats why they post on a "Laser Engaver" forum and not an "Engraving" forum?
Hey! who said you guys don't do irony!!

joking aside, I'll keep reading and contributing to this wonderfull source of knowledge and experience and hopefully one day be able assist, in the meantime if anyone needs to know how to bury pipelines and telecomms cables on the bottom of the worlds Oceans then maybe i can help!!

cheers,
Buschy

Mike Null
02-24-2008, 10:31 AM
Bushy

I did not use the term "hobby" in my post however it applies in many instances.

I can certainly agree with your points and I should have been more specific in my description of Chinese lasers rather than generalizing. There are several brands of Chinese lasers which offer tech support, parts inventory in the U.S., conventional software interface and have sealed tubes which can be expected to provide a reasonable measure of service. They are, however comparable in price to the domestic brands.

Greg Busch
02-24-2008, 11:13 AM
Mike,

I started off replying to your last post then whent on to cover Marks post regarding the "Hobby" part.

But yep, hobby most certainly does apply, We are inundated here in Australia with chinese built power tools built from recycled plastics and marketed under "Global Machinery Corporation", you can get 14v battery drill, 4" grinder and a Jigsaw combo for less than US$50, great for the bloke that uses them once a week or so but maybe not for anyone depending on them day in day out.
none of them hold a candle to well built German equipment

Thad Nickoley
02-24-2008, 11:29 AM
for us here in the states, I know that if I need to rely on a power tool I would have to buy Makita, Dewalt, or Hitachi over say Harbor Freight brand if I want to use it daily. That said the dependable ones mentioned above are "Chinese" does this mean that in the future we will have the more dependable lasers being imported?

Greg Busch
02-24-2008, 11:56 AM
Thad,

that you mention Hitachi, Makita etc is relevant to this whole China thread, it wasnt too long ago that the same discussion would have been taking place over the relative merits of Japanese manufactured equipment.

Cheap Japanese imports Post WW2 were flooding into the markets around the world, at first a lot of products were indeed crap but as in most markets it is consumer driven and quite simply the consumer wanted a better product this forced the manufacturers to continually improve (a healthy dose of industrial espionage notwithstanding) up to the point that Japanese built products were no longer the bottom end of the market, it was now the turn of the Taiwanese and so it goes on now with korea, China etc, already India is becoming a larger scale producer.

Yes, Chinese built machines will continue to improve, more dealers will spring up offering machines for certain users, US manufacturers will look at ways of making their machines more cost effective to combat this, nothing wrong with a bit of healthy competition.

by the way, isnt DeWalt just rebranded Black and Decker? they were hobby machines once.

Rodne Gold
02-24-2008, 12:18 PM
Perhaps if the traditional guys offered glass tubes , they could compete with the chinese and even outgun em. Would you pay lets say $5k for a proven platform and support with a glass tube or 2.5k for a work in progress , a bad user interface and not much support , those that want the the metal tubed production option can pay the 15 grand for the same machine.
As I have said before , lasers imho are way overpriced, especially the metal tubes.
As to hobbyists , well these small lasers we are talking about are essentially jobbing/hobbyist lasers , hardly 24/7 production models. We use 6 x chinese lasers (gcc) in a jobbing and production environment and it works well , but these arent the cheapy versions.
Downtime costs big if your order books are full , in many ways, directly and in losing customers to opposition so if you are in a production environment , the cost of the better tubed and more reliable/consistent lasers are not that material in terms of what they can generate.

Brad Knight
02-24-2008, 1:05 PM
I’d like to start by saying that I don’t have a horse in this race… yet. The wife and I are stashing cash away to buy a laser free and clear so that when we do take the plunge we’re not in over our head either way we go…

That said…

What I’m reading from this thread is a differences in opinion… which is great for someone like me who is trying to make up their mind how to spend my money… but it seems to me that a lot of the ‘argument’ so to speak comes from the broad use of labels… horrible use of labels if you ask me.

A common thread that goes across this forum and a few other forums that I read is the use of ‘American Lasers’ and ‘Chinese Lasers’. Personally, I don’t think it’s got much to do with where it’s made, as much as how it’s made.

We’ve got ‘cheap’ glass tube lasers with +/- 2000 hour tubes vs. metal tubes rated at +/- 40,000 hours. You get what you pay for.

We’ve got questionable motion control systems vs. industry standard motion control systems. You get what you pay for.

We’ve got little or no tech support vs. industrial level customer service… again… you get what you pay for.

It doesn’t matter where it’s made. I’ve looked at GCC models and I’m still considering them, and they look to be on par with ‘American’ made models and as far as I can tell, they have good support from companies like Sign Warehouse (no affiliation). I’m sure you can get an ‘American made’ cheap’o machine (on other forums there are a few people that have made a run at building their own)

Look on Ebay… you can get some really cheap ‘CNC’ (ready) routers that are designed to work with Dremels or RotoZips made from plastic or MDF… that you can probably cut with and carve with… or you can buy a industrial machine with a 5hp spindle and is built with a steel frame…

We’re talking apples and oranges, and we’re using the wrong terms to argue over.

With all that said… anyone got a suggestion to what kind of laser I should buy?? Just Kidding

Mark Winlund
02-24-2008, 4:20 PM
I have really enjoyed this discussion. There are a lot of sharp people in the group. In regards to Chinese tools, they have their place. My good shop tools are mostly Craftsman (due to the warranty). You really pay through the nose for these tools. The tools I throw into the back of my service truck are, for the most part, Chinese. They get stolen, lost, and broken easily. But they are not used very much in that environment. I have noticed a slow, but definite increase in the quality of Chinese tools. I just purchased a small CNC router for our engraving business. The quality is good, the finish is only so-so. It was not ridiculously cheap (about $10,000), but the quality was there, and it is well supported. (This is a 24" x 36" router with a 3hp water cooled spindle, with computer and software ready to run out of the box. USA software, HP computer.)

So, perhaps Chinese does not always equal hobby... perhaps that was too simplified.

There is a company near us called Bridge City Tool Works. They make and sell what can be best called "collector" tools. These are tools that are made of polished brass, inlaid with rosewood, and in general are made to look at. An example is shown below. This plane sells for more than $1500. This is certainly a (collecting) hobby tool, that few people would use in their shop. Yet, there it is. The company has been in business for many years.

This is an interesting subject, with no end of opinions!

Mark Winlund
02-24-2008, 4:31 PM
I have really enjoyed this discussion. There are a lot of sharp people in the group. In regards to Chinese tools, they have their place. My good shop tools are mostly Craftsman (due to the warranty). You really pay through the nose for these tools. The tools I throw into the back of my service truck are, for the most part, Chinese. They get stolen, lost, and broken easily. But they are not used very much in that environment. I have noticed a slow, but definite increase in the quality of Chinese tools. I just purchased a small CNC router for our engraving business. The quality is good, the finish is only so-so. It was not ridiculously cheap (about $10,000), but the quality was there, and it is well supported. (This is a 24" x 36" router with a 3hp water cooled spindle, with computer and software ready to run out of the box. USA software, HP computer.)

So, perhaps Chinese does not always equal hobby... perhaps that was too simplified.

There is a company near us called Bridge City Tool Works. They make and sell what can be best called "collector" tools. These are tools that are made of polished brass, inlaid with rosewood, and in general are made to look at. An example is shown below. This plane sells for more than $1500. This is certainly a (collecting) hobby tool, that few people would use in their shop. Yet, there it is. The company has been in business for many years.

This is an interesting subject, with no end of opinions!

Mark Winlund
02-24-2008, 4:31 PM
Sorry about the double post!

Mark

Larry Bratton
02-24-2008, 4:56 PM
All:
I wish I had spent my money on an upgrade for my CNC router. I make many times more with it than I do the laser. I was hoping it would take the place of that work, instead it is just a compliment to the router. I paid more for the American made "top end" laser than the router cost initially. A lower initial investment in the laser would have been smarter. Hind site is always 20/20 as they say.

Mark Winlund
02-24-2008, 7:04 PM
We have combined laser work with routing to good effect. It actually reduces our cost because of the lower cost of the materials.

Mark

Eric Fuller
02-25-2008, 6:49 PM
Well, there have been some interesting replies here. I agree that there is weapons grade stereotyping going on here with terms like "hobby" and "professional". Being a professional woodworker (i.e. I make stuff out of wood for a living), I agree that certain tools HAVE to work. However, if you're in business and you have critical tools, you're a fool if you don't have either backup plans or backup tools. EVERYTHING breaks sooner or later. It's why I own two table saws. Both are contractor saws too...OOPS, that's a "hobby" tool, a real professional would use a cabinet saw. Come to think of it, my Sieg mill is a hobby tool as well, but it has made me many many many times it's purchase price in profits. Dang, I should be out of business according to conventional logic around here, yet somehow dispite the obvious inferiority of my equipment I'm able to make and sell thousands of dollars of product every month :rolleyes:

As far as lasers, if I buy two chinese lasers for 1/2 the price of one american laser, and run them both in a production environment, not only will I be turning out work faster, I'm not completely ass out if/when one of them goes down. To say that's an inferior business model is simply sticking your head in the sand (which is by far the most polite way I could put that). Display some imagination and adaptability already! You guys remind me of snobby Harley owners who won't wave to me because I'm on a Suzuki. Nevermind how many times I've pulled over and helped out when their hog craps out bacause they paid for marketing not quality. May not be apples to apples but the gist is the same.

Eric Fuller
02-25-2008, 7:07 PM
Interesting how it's those of us who have paid for all the support and product who are constantly asked for help in getting their machines working and trying to understand even simple things like how to focus it. We paid for that information, yet we give it to people like you for free on a daily basis. We could be jerks and stay silent or say "Call China and ask them" or "you get what you pay for", but we don't. Day after day we all help everyone on this forum, regardless of what machine they bought, even though we paid for the machine, the support, the manuals, etc.

Scott, how the heck are you teaching chinese laser owners how to fix their machines? There are no shared components. I'm sure you can answer general conceptual questions about lasing, but when it comes to machine specific issues on imports, I don't see it. If you begrudge questions from those who do not meet your class expectations when it comes to equipment, don't condescend to answer them. I'd frankly rather you were a jerk and kept silent then have to listen to you tell me why my equipment is crap while answering a question I could probably find the answer to elsewhere by using a search engine.

Scott Shepherd
02-25-2008, 7:47 PM
Scott, how the heck are you teaching chinese laser owners how to fix their machines? There are no shared components. I'm sure you can answer general conceptual questions about lasing, but when it comes to machine specific issues on imports, I don't see it. If you begrudge questions from those who do not meet your class expectations when it comes to equipment, don't condescend to answer them. I'd frankly rather you were a jerk and kept silent then have to listen to you tell me why my equipment is crap while answering a question I could probably find the answer to elsewhere by using a search engine.

Eric, do a search and see who answers posts like "I have a new Chinese laser and it has no instructions, how do I know when it's in focus". See who answers posts like that. Not only me, but people just like me who own Trotec's, Epilogs, GCC's, and ULS's. I didn't say fix them, I said get them working.

When someone comes on and says "my machine is doing something odd", who's there to answer? Owners of all brands of machines. Looks to me like we all help each other no matter what machine we have.

Read my posts. On at least a dozen threads I have said that Chinese laser's might be a good buy for some people, might not for other people. Since you can profess that your situation is the best and other's can't have any real life experience that contradicts your opinion, then perhaps I'll not respond any more.

I've also said time and time again (thanks for paying attention) that my machine CANNOT be down for more than 48 hours max. 24 would be a problem, 48 would be critical and I would lose work. I turn work around same day/next day in most cases. During the Chinese New Year everything shuts down for over a week. If I had a Chinese machine and it was down, I'd lose customers, which I can't afford to do. I can't wait a week for a part. I can't wait 48 hours to get an email response. My business simply won't allow it. Yet you fail to realize there are people in that situation who protect themselves by buying from companies who DO offer 24 hour resolutions.

Your solution is to "Buy two". Well, when I'm running 1 piece orders (which is what most of my business is), I can gain no speed advantages on that part by having two. My machine is certainly 3-5 times faster than a Chinese machine. So to cover myself, in your mind, I have to run jobs all year long at 30% the speed my ULS runs at. Good business stategy. Let's reduce the amount we can make on every single job every single day, just so we can say that we've saved money.

I've done a lot of machine justifications in my lifetime, and I've yet to purchase anything that was slower, less efficient, less quality, less reliable just because it was 1/4 the price.

I'll just run my laser, my Cheap Chinese Plotter (that I've mentioned time and time again and that's in MY SIGNATURE)....oh, that's right, I'm prejudiced against Chinese made products. Guess I'll go run my Chinese made Engine Lathe....Oh, that's right, I'm against Chinese made products. Odd how I'm so prejudiced against them, yet I own two machines from them. Curious, to say the least!

Go buy as many Chinese lasers and products as you wish, it's your money. I don't care what you do with it, but when a person's looking for a laser and they aren't technicians and can't fix electrical issues, I'll stand by my comments to them that they should probably look elsewhere. Not everyone is a technician and has the skill set to fix mechanical and electrical issues.

Come on man, before you start ranting, at least get your facts together about my history on the topic.

Eric Fuller
02-25-2008, 8:49 PM
Scott, you have valid points, and I don't want to get into a pissing contest. I do think that your POV that those of you who paid for American machines and dispense advice are the saving grace of those who can't figure out their Chinese machine is grossly flawed. On the contrary - generally I see other Chinese owners who have been there done that giving the most on point advice to such people. Even you have to admit that saying you paid for that information yet are graciously "giving" it to "people like me" reads pretty poorly.

Making a blanket statement that Chinese machines are for hobbyists and are ill-suited for any business use is patently absurd, and I stand by that. That's what got my goat, it's obviously just a damn silly thing to say, and with that I'm done. Got work to do. Good luck to you all.

Scott Shepherd
02-25-2008, 8:57 PM
Scott, you have valid points, and I don't want to get into a pissing contest. I do think that your POV that those of you who paid for American machines and dispense advice are the saving grace of those who can't figure out their Chinese machine is grossly flawed. On the contrary - generally I see other Chinese owners who have been there done that giving the most on point advice to such people. Even you have to admit that saying you paid for that information yet are graciously "giving" it to "people like me" reads pretty poorly.

Making a blanket statement that Chinese machines are for hobbyists and are ill-suited for any business use is patently absurd, and I stand by that. That's what got my goat, it's obviously just a damn silly thing to say, and with that I'm done. Got work to do. Good luck to you all.

Never said we were the saving grace, please stop putting your spin on my words that I didn't say. My point was that most of us paid for the information we have, yet we are kind enough in this community to openly share information. Not sure how that reads poorly, but maybe we went to different schools.

And I don't recall saying that they were ill-suited for ANY business. Again, you're reading things that aren't in my words. I seem to recall saying numerous times that there were people on here who had good luck with their machines and ran them in their businesses. Not sure how I'm on record of saying things like that, yet you've got me saying it's all crap.

Either you're misreading my words or I'm doing a poor job at typing them.
Either way, my previous posts and record on the topic are contrary to your portrayal of my beliefs.

Mike Null
02-26-2008, 5:42 AM
Just a reminder to all that we have a good record of civil discussions on the laser forum. Swearing, strong language and lack of respect for the views of others is not something we want to deal with here.

pat Lanigan
02-27-2008, 5:35 PM
Guys, it has to be said chinese lasers are getting people laser engraving and cutting affordably.
I have seen quotations from epilog for mini mini machines that were almost 3 times what my laser cost.
I would need to remortgage to get a 80watt epilog, i can order a 80watt chinese machine for the price of an replacement tube.
As long as i have a spare tube and 2 hours to spare, thats the sum of my downtime.
If the local companies go for volume sales and not elitest ownership, they could be profitable and level the playing fields.
This is a brilliant forum .. Many thanks

Mike Null
02-27-2008, 9:55 PM
Pat

I don't see a shred of reality in this statement,
If the local companies go for volume sales and not elitest ownership, they could be profitable and level the playing fields.

It is not elitest to want dependablility and reliability. US machines may be over-priced but these are not giant corporations and there is a limit to the volume of the marketplace. There is no way they can match the prices of unsupported, under-developed Chinese machines. These are not chop saws.

If you've had only the problems you cite you've been lucky. Search the many threads on Chinese lasers and take note of the problems owners have encountered.

Nevertheless, it is good to hear of success stories and I wish you continued good results with your machine.

pat Lanigan
02-28-2008, 5:49 PM
Thanks Mike, Its just so hard to see how the gaps in price are so vast.
clearly there is a market for both.
I cringe when i think i nearly bought such a small low powered machine..
Turned out i bought double the power, double the table plus rotary attachment for third approx the price.
With a spare tube on the shelf as back up..!

I get problems doin pictures , which is my trade off..

After years listening to a cnc router screaming at me, I'm in heaven lasering..

Scott Shepherd
02-28-2008, 7:03 PM
Thanks Mike, Its just so hard to see how the gaps in price are so vast. clearly there is a market for both.


As I said in another thread called "What laser should I buy", people buy Hyundai's and people buy Mercedes and everything in between. Both will take you the same place. In fact, a bicycle will take you to the same place the Mercedes will, so how can anyone every justify buying a Mercedes over a bicycle?

Point being, we all have different goals, budgets, and demands of our equipment. What's right for me, might not be right for you. What's right for you, may not be right for me. I know one thing- my business. I know what my business demands, and I know what quality level is expected from that demand. I don't know your demand, business, or budget.

I said it in another thread, there is no right answer. The answers depend on a variety of things, just as what car you drive depends on what you plan to do with it. Last time I checked, there are plenty of Lexus, Mercedes, and Cadillac dealers out there, along with a lot of other models.

Jim Watkins
02-28-2008, 10:15 PM
I just thought I would throw this into the mix.

I had an issue with my mini 24 where the motherboard would not take the new firmware update.

I called and epilog had one at my front door in less than 24 hours. I had to pay a refundable core charge, but I had my new board installed and running in 30 minutes pre download with the firmware update.

That alone is worth the additional cost of my unit.

To say that an Epilog is overpriced is to say that a Mercedes is overpriced. I agree with Scott and it is a matter of choice.

I never bought a Mercedes before, but I did when I invested in my business and purchased an Epilog.

Roy Brewer
03-01-2008, 11:48 PM
I just thought I would throw this into the mix.All,
While I'm hesitant to be "thrown into the mix," since we distribute the higher priced, American made systems, I'll overcome that by the end of this post.

Seems like a majority of people on this forum who have purchased a Chinese laser have quickly or not so quickly been able to get them to work. I'll list a couple "real live" examples below that I don't think are all that unusual. ]]] I fear you won't understand why I did not point these people to this forum [[[ ;)

1)Huge manufacturing facility in Louisiana got in their Chinese laser and after a couple days the company president gave up on the people who were scheduled to run the machine and assigned the project to his head engineer. (I'd estimate this guy makes six figures---you do the math.) After two weeks, he had it running and could produce relatively good labels. However, he was unable to train lower paid employees to do the same. They called me back in and I plugged in a machine to their network, turned on and printed from their software. President & engineer said "that's all there is? You just plug it up and run it?" I responded, "yep."
2) Last week I got a call from a guy that has had a laser for two months and never been able to laser a singe thing. He went to a local trophy shop and asked for their help. Laser operator told him "call Roy Brewer he knows everything about lasers" [[[[ ****NOT*****, but honest truth that what he told him! ]]]]
I can tell you that I will make it work(looks like two more week ends & I'll have it), but I'm just confirming what other posters have said, not everyone will be able to make them work.

pat Lanigan
03-02-2008, 4:43 PM
I'll list a couple "real live" examples below that I don't think are all that unusual. ]]] I fear you won't understand why I did not point these people to this forum [[[ ;)

If each one of us are 100% honest about our experiences using chinese lasers, we need not wink at each other, or avoid pointing anyone to this forum.
I am only recently a member , but i was given to understand that in contributing we were not to be experiencing advertisements from distributors etc.

Huge manufacturing facility in Louisiana got in their Chinese laser and after a couple days the company president gave up on the people who were scheduled to run the machine and assigned the project to his head engineer.
A Huge manufacturer went all the way to China for a laser.. I'm from Ireland, we have a history of storytelling..!
I am not a distributor just a owner / worker , And i have had nothing but courtesy from the chinese.
Everything they provided was working and on time..

I have limited experience of coreldraw x3. But i was lasering 2 hours after laser arrival. The machine has paid for itself. That me being honest..

I do not want to fall into the trap of naming my machine, I do not have an agenda..

I have really enjoyed the forum and really dont want allienating people. But you guys are reading the same postings i am..

James Stokes
03-02-2008, 6:56 PM
I do not think you can say Roy was Advertizing. All he was doing was stating his facts. If he posted it Believe IT. Do you think no sales men are supposed to post any thing? I take offence at what you just posted.
You are happy with your machine, We are happy for you. A co-worker of my wife recently Purchased a chinese laser. ( He is even a Chinese engineer.) When he recieved the laser it was in parts. He is trying to get it together now. He knew from my wife that I have lasers. He called me wanting to know if I could come out and help him get it up and running. I could not, Right now he is one unhappy Chinaman. I think it has been proven time and time again, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

pat Lanigan
03-02-2008, 7:21 PM
James,
If your friend has any questions i can help with, pm me.

Mike Null
03-02-2008, 9:10 PM
Pat

As a matter of fact we invite manufacturers and distributors to post on the forum for the simple reason that they can often contribute greater expertise to an issue than others.

We ask them to identify themselves so you can judge for yourself if there is a bias.

As for Roy Brewer, I know him personally and I assure you he is one of the most honest, ethical men you can find in this business. (Roy has a territory limited to the Southwest U.S. but he has a national reputation as an expert in the engraving field.)

If you want further evidence of his contributions to this forum just do a search of the posts he has made and judge for your self.

Scott Shepherd
03-02-2008, 9:58 PM
I'm shocked and amazed that this thread just keeps on going (and I'm guilty as well). What strikes me is that if you mention anything about the Chinese laser, then regardless of whether or not it's fact based, or opinion, then you're automatically "bashing" the Chinese machine or you're a moron who spent too much for an overpriced American Made machine.

Us "American Machine" owners are constantly told we don't know what we are talking about and we wasted our money.

That offends me. It doesn't offend me for the reasons you might think. I'm called a moron often (mostly by family), but I'm offended that we aren't allowed to have a difference of opinion.

It seems perfectly okay for some to have the opinion that Chinese machines are awesome and a real value, but it's not okay for anyone to have an opposing opinion.

We're constantly told how we wasted our money. I'll take the logic a step in another direction. All you Chinese laser owners who have no tolerance for us American Made Machines- what kind of car do you drive?

Yes, that's right, what kind of car? Better yet, what kind of car do you put your wife and kids in? It's their well being, so what's it worth to you? Do you pack your wife and kids in a Yugo? You don't? Why not? After all, a car does nothing but get you from one place to another. So why do you need a car with airbags? Why do you need a car with a high saftey rating? I mean it's just a car, and a Yugo will get them to their destination the same as a Toyota. If a $5000 car gets you to the same place as a $40,000 car, then what's the point of the $40,000 car? None. In fact, a bicycle gets you to the same places, so why waste your money on a car? Anything other than a bike is a waste of money.

My guess is those who own Chinese lasers and are bashing us USA owners constantly, is that they own nice, safe cars, they buy name brand electronics, and they wear name brand jeans.

It's hypocritical and it's offensive. You are welcome to your opinion, but we're also free to offer our opinion without being called shills for the laser industry or morons for wasting our money.

Sorry, rant over, but I needed to say it.

Shawn Gillies
03-03-2008, 7:02 AM
Well here I thought I'd found a great Forum to ask questions and discuss a few projects I am working on. I am almost afraid to mention that I bought a new Chinese laser.
I am not a business owner, and only purchased it for a project.
Nuff said....
Back to CNCZone where people do help others.

Rodne Gold
03-03-2008, 8:55 AM
I think a distinction has made, I run 6 GCC "chinese" lasers but they are the equivalent to any mainstream American made laser. I live in South Africa , where choices are limited , I bought my machines based on the best distributor and backup.

My choices were simple , trotec or Gcc , there was nothing else here then.

The lasers being labeled chinese might as well be Russian or Korean or whatever ,in essence they are cheaply made , use inferior parts and use tubes that are nowhere near the consistency and reliability of Synrad or Coherent and dont have the beam qualities to match. Thats fine if you dont expect to run serious production on a continous 8 hour day cycle. One does not have to own one of these to know trouble lurks over time.
In terms of cars , the mainstream guys are merc and beemers and the low cost lasers are like Tata's. They both perform the same function but in different ways with differnt resale values and service facilities. I wonder if one will be able to get spares for a "chinese" laser 3 years down the line or what the actual running and repair costs will be in that timespan.

Anyway , it's pretty much unfair to compare the 2 types of lasers, if you have bought the good stuff , good for you , if you have bought the cheap stuff and it works for you , all good and well.
At the end of it all , there is a fair amount of xenophobia here.
At some stage these lasers are gonna get better , already some are offering servo motors and "american" tubes , but the pricing then is not that attractive.
The only area the chinese can compete in is labour cost , the metals and components etc are no cheaper in china than the rest of the world. Laser manufacturing is not labour intensive or doesnt really have a huge labour component , so to get to the uber cheap price points , one HAS to assume that components are not as good as mainstream, unless of course mainstream suppliers are gouging us.
As I have said before , the proliferation of low cost lasers will dilute and to some extent destroy profitability in some laser markets.
It pretty obvious that those that have bought quality machines want to protect their markets and investments , hence some hostility. It also appears that those with "chinese" lasers are pretty much newbies and don't contribute info but ask but that will also change over time as they gain experience , we were all newbies once.

Shawn , this forum is a major resource , all you have to do is read the archives and previous posts and I don't see why you are afraid of asking a question , I havent seen anyone being insulted or slammed for doing so. Basing your opinion of Sawmill on one thread and saying you wont come here is cutting your nose to spite your face , you are MORE than welcome here. There are 1000's of posts that are not machine specific and can help you in a myriad of ways , from business plans to safety , principles and ideas.

James Stokes
03-03-2008, 8:55 AM
Shawn, You will find that people here are more than happy to help you if possible regardless of the kind of laser you have. Pissin matches like this are unusuall. I would not have posted in it except one statement rubbed a nerve. This thread is more along the lines of which is better Ford or Chevy. Most people will just ignore the thread.

Brian Robison
03-03-2008, 10:07 AM
Ford or Cherry (Cherry is a new China made car)
This is the first time I've read any heated debate on SMC.
I understand that the price is temping for a Chinese laser but I am so tired of Chinese imports, jobs lost, soon to be entire professions like machining lost to countries that are really not our friends. BTW, why can't we get cigars from Cuba?
Sorry I don't mean to go political.
Buy what ever makes you happy, send the money to folks building weapons to use against us one day.......

pat Lanigan
03-03-2008, 3:26 PM
I replied to roys advertisement last evening and was deleted.

Sam Yerardi
03-03-2008, 3:57 PM
This subject is an immense sore spot for me. In my previous life as a laser design engineer for 8 years (I'm an electrical engineer by profession), I left that company because they were sold, and the new company began outsourcing the production to China. I was told I would have to go to China for weeks at a time to train them. My bitterness over this will become obvious if it hasn't already. The company I worked for was probably the number one marking company in the US. They were the original company that started this type of marking (pin stamp and laser). Home-grown right in the midwest of the US. The new owners were up-front with everyone. They told us they buy up profitable mid-west manufacturing companies, pump up their value and then sell them at a profit. Bought us for 40 million and told everyone that in 5 years they'd sell us for 100 million. For those of you that don't know this, China has millions of mom & pop manufacturing businesses that are here today and gone tomorrow. Everything from the defective toys, etc. we see today to high-tech equipment such as lasers. I don't have a warm glowing feeling about Chinese engineering or production as I've seen it first-hand. No safety standards, horrible working conditions, etc. There are huge 'super-markets' like Wal-Mart that only carry electronics, components, etc. If you want to start your own manufacturing business, get you a shopping cart and start going up and down the aisles to get what you need to start building whatever. I am not making this up. A LOT of what is being bought here in America that comes from China is being manufactured in this manner. And when an American company such as this one moves production to China, the engineering, US ability to support, etc., all go to hell in a hand-basket. The engineering that went into a product over here gets sold out the back-door of the little mom & pop businesses to other little mom & pop businesses. There is no protection for patents, etc. If it goes over there you've lost it. When we designed and built lasers for the marking industry, all of the electronics, etc., were built here in America, with a few components built in Germany, and the UK. Some laser components are only made in a one or two places in the world so in those cases you have no choice. But it isn't China. As of today... The quality control is so poor there that a US company is taking an enormous chance on being able to design and support a reliable product back here in the US. We used Universal lasers in our CO2 designs, and some Synrad. I designed a 10w fiber laser that was named in the top 100 products of the year by Medical Products magazine. I also designed one of the first 10w CO2 lasers in the US and it is still being sold today. It is currently manufactured here in the US but that will change. When it goes over their all bets are off on it remaining a good product. I don't say these things to brag about me but to show my bitterness towards the money elite in this country whose only desire is make more money at the expense of the American worker. To see all of the hard work and reputation go down the tubes because some investors are greedy is indeed a sad situation for the US and it's not getting any better. Buy American if you can.

Mike Null
03-03-2008, 5:03 PM
Pat

I don't see any indication your post was deleted by a moderator. I may be missing something but usually a notation of a deleted post stays in the thread.

For example, there were triplicate posts between 34 and 35 of this thread which I deleted. The other was placed somewhere else in the laser forum and remains.

pat Lanigan
03-03-2008, 5:05 PM
Sam , i totally sympathise with you. believe it or not the same happens here in Ireland. One of my biggest customers were Delphi Packard.
My last job for them was to build parts for boards being sent to New delhi India.

Most of the customers i deal with could not wait for delivery from China.
We do membership tags, Crystal trophies and memorial hearts.

I am certainly not USA bashing..I am sure Epilog are fantastic machines. But reading these posts you would think Epilog built the world..
I love America, my gripes were not political.

Sorry Roy but i took exception to your posting. I like to speak as i find.
My laser supplier to my knowledge knows nothing of my postings

I would love the next guy to read these posts to get both sides of the story. I too am reading horror stories on these and other forums about chinese lasers not being earthed and tubes not worth connecting..

Dont know why i'm posting this, But i have a Vw Passat..(boring) and a subaru Liberty B4 300Bhp..None of which are made in China.

Dan Hintz
03-03-2008, 5:58 PM
No safety standards, horrible working conditions, etc. There are huge 'super-markets' like Wal-Mart that only carry electronics, components, etc. If you want to start your own manufacturing business, get you a shopping cart and start going up and down the aisles to get what you need to start building whatever. I am not making this up.

A bit of a sidebar, but as a designer I have to be careful about what travels out of the country for the exact reason you mention... lack of IP control. The QA is all across the board, too... I've heard first-hand stories of tuna sandwiches being eaten by the techs while working on wafers in the "clean" room. Still, I would love to have a Wal-Mart style stripmall for components that could shop in... it would beat paying rush delivery fees from Mouser and Digi-Key any day ;)

Rob Bosworth
03-04-2008, 12:28 PM
I repair, refurbish and sell used laser engraving machines for a living. I own a couple of U.S. made machines that had lasers in them that are no longer supported. So I came up with the brilliant idea to put a "glass tube" laser in one of them and sell it. One of my customers bought a fourth machine (Epilog) for his shop. Until he received the Epilog, I did not know he had three other laser systems. He purchased the Epilog becuase he needed something that was more reliable than what he could do with his three imported machines. During one of our conversations, he mentioned that he had four spare 60 & 80 watt lasers in stock. I asked him if he would sell one to me so that I could retrofit a machine. A week or so later, he called and said he did not send me one of the lasers because all of them were defective or just did not work.

One of the hardest things on any sealed CO2 laser is to sit idle for extended periods of time. I do not know what the shelf life is on these "glass tube" lasers, but it does not sound like it is long. I would not mind having to shell out $300 to $ 500 for a 60 or 80 watt laser tube, if it would run 1000, 500 or even 300 hours. But the question is, how long will it sit on my shelf and still be "good". How long did it sit on someone else's shelf before I received it? So, if I need to buy a new laser, how long will it take to get here from overseas?

I would guess part of the reason that these imported laser systems are so inexpensive is that they ship in a sea container. How long does it take to get into the U.S before it ships to me? If a laser is supposed to be good for 1000 hours, does that mean it is supposed to be good for 6 months? If it takes a month or two to hit my floor, does it have 4 or 5 months left on the tube?

Another question that occurs to me, probably because it is part of my business, is how much is a used imported laser system worth after running it for a year. I think I have seen a couple of "Creeker's" selling their used systems on E-Bay or the classifieds. If I remember correctly, the last one I saw sold for ~ $ 750. So if the machine cost them $ 6,000 originally, then it cost them $ 5,250 to own that machine for less than a year. That sounds pretty expensive for an inexpensive investment. And I think she said that she had never gotten it up and running.

Mike Mackenzie
03-04-2008, 1:09 PM
I want to tell everyone a story of a Chinese Laser system in specific the glass tubes. I am not bashing the systems I am however posting this as a warning.

A customer was telling me this story just last week he owns a Chinese system using the glass tube. The tube failed and he had to change it out with a replacement. he followed the instructions to the tee he had all of the power completely disconnected and then proceeded to remove the tube.

What happened was the tube was not completely discharged and sent 60,000 volts threw his hand that blew a hole in his hand and sent him flying back into a wall 25 feet away. He was extremely lucky that first it did not kill him and that it did not impale him onto something attached to the wall.

He ended up spending 4 weeks in the hospital and was told that he should not have survived He showed me the scar on his hand that proved to me he was not joking around

I am not saying this is a common thing with regards to Chinese systems however if there is the smallest possibility that it could happen i want everyone to be aware and to be extremely careful when replacing these glass tubes they are very high voltage and can cause sever injuries and possibly death.

Just be aware!!

John Barton
04-17-2008, 12:51 AM
There's a lot of experienced people on this forum, and Bob is one of them.

Chinese laser = hobby (at this point in time).

My ULS is about 5 years old, cost $41,000 USD. It has never broken down, and makes me money whenever I turn it on. It's the only one I have, so I need it to work. Every time.

I get a chuckle each time I read about someone that is going to "convert the glass tube to a metal one", "build my own", "write my own software", etc. These people are not in the engraving business, they are in the laser building business.


Mark

A couple things. We own a ULS 660 which we put to a lot of use in the USA. It worked from minute one "out of the box" (well except for the rotary which was due to a bad board which ULS overnighted to me.) The machine has been in pretty constant use for almost two years now.

In our China factory we use two ULS machines and one runs about 18 hours a day. The factory had used Chinese machines before and bought the ULS machines on our recommendation.

That said however there are MANY, MANY, MANY Chinese companies that make laser systems from the crappy to the high end. I just went to a local show where many of these were on display. For precision and powerful marking the systems on display there were as accurate or perhaps better than our ULS machines. I can't comment on the drivers or software to run them however.

There are many many many Chinese companies using the Chinese machines in heavy production situations. When I was looking at our current - no name - laser I was in several shops that were constantly busy with various cutting and marking jobs. I believe that the machines hold up just fine under duress if they are setup correctly. And that is the key. I would be extremely hesitant to purchase a machine at any price where I didn't have the safety of rock solid support locally or a phone call away on my country's time schedule.

ULS has been awesome, their local representatives both in Charlotte and in China have been great and responsive. Support from the factory has been top grade all the way. That was one of the reasons we decided on ULS and it has paid for itself many times over.

My new Chinese laser was delivered on Tuesday. It's Thursday and it's still not operating. Why? Because the company that sold it can't seem to get their crap together on the right driver version. And this is with support only 30 minutes away. They want to sell lasers to the USA. I said no way are they going to be able to do this with this current machine and the lack of support and unity.

China is a land in development and it's people are truly wonderful, full of life, and people trying to make better lives for themselves. It's a strange juxtaposition between the modern world with it's conveniences and high tech and someplace closer to the turn of the century in 1900.

I wouldn't export these machines to the USA but I sure will use them here for the specific jobs I have planned (parts cutting) and expect them to be operational 95% of the time. Unless I had guaranteed support and a machine that was working within minutes of it arriving then I wouldn't buy a Chinese machine.

I can tell you though that it's basically good input gets good output. I manufacture pool cues and pool cue cases in China and in my two years here I have seen first hand that when the input on process is good then the output on product quality is good as well.

It's complex for sure. But if a company like ULS can sell TO China then it's a sign that total quality trumps mere price.

John Barton - Earther.

Dean Carpenter
06-09-2008, 3:14 AM
Hi People,

I know a LOT about this subject, having over 13 years of first hand experience with US/European lasers and nearly 3 years with Chinese lasers.

Too much text has been written on the subject and much of it is inaccurate so here are the bottom lines;

1) Take off your patriotic T-shirts and blinkers and think without bias.
2) Forget the glass tube technology unless you want loads of hassle.
3) If you are cutting or vector scoring many Chinese machines will do the job perfectly
4) If you are mostly engraving then go for one of the well known US or European manufacturers.
5) If you want a cheap machine that will cut well but with low demand put upon it for engraving then go for a Chinese machine fitted with a US metal tube.
6) never buy any machine without having research your supplier and their technical capabilities.

regards to all

Dean

joe daley
06-11-2008, 10:34 AM
Weve been pondering becoming a dealer for a China based laser. I deal with China alot- have been there many times- know the good- and bad--
here's our thinking--

We were referred to a hi quality laser factory last year by one of our other factories-- this factory is an ISO factory- unlike many factories that are converted houses with a tin roof and no airconditioning..

Our friends have been using the laser we plan on selling for 8 months- no issues at all. No problems.

Its not a servo laser- but it works and works well for their needs.

60W unit- water cooled-

We plan on going ot the factory this year and watch them being built- speak with their engineers ( this is always fun to do- because they dont speak english well) but we speak SOME chinese so it should be interesting)... were going to be " in serviced" on alignment, repairs etc.

THe master plan is to introduce a decent quality machine with auto focus, hi quality imported rail system, and red dot pointer for under 5 grand.

We will stock replacement parts here in Florida, including new tubes, mirrors, motors- whatever COULD fail.

For those who KNOW lasers-things SHOULD be ok if theres a problem. For those who dont know these machines- not sure how to handle support other then phone support and replacement parts being sent next day.

So thats the plan for now- we have 2 units coming in which we will run for a few months until we can get back to China and visit the factory.

With that said- any comments pro or con for yet another laser product?