Pull or push?

[Ralph Laughton]

OK, I have just been watching a free DVD that came with a magazine. In it the guy was cutting using a SCMS. I always pull out, drop down and push cut.

This guy was pull cutting through the material. Surely that is wrong...

Ralph:(

[Aaron Beaver]

Same as you, pull out, run blade to bottom, then push the rest of the way through.

[Stan Welborn]

yep, he's bassackerds.

[Bob Childress]

Yeah. Just look at the way the blade rotates. He's backcutting.

[Gary Keedwell]

Maybe he was running the blade in reverse.:eek:
Gary

[Ed Peters]

to make a judgement. I find that the procedure you describe is beneficial in cutting narrow widths of veneer ply to length. Pull through for the upper layer and then plunge in and through for the balance.

Ed

[Steve Leverich]

Or maybe, like me, he had a RAS first... Steve

[Eddie Darby]

If you do it your way, then you have to be weary of the fact that the blade is lifting the piece being cut. If it is securely clamped down, then no problems.

His way is forcing the wood down to the surface while it is being cut, and against the fence, while the blade is back-cutting.

Would be interesting to see what blade is being used and what rake angle the teeth are.

[Steve Leverich]

From years of running my 12" RAS (and only months of using a 12" Dewalt SCMS, I have to think there are pros/cons to each way - there've been a couple of tense moments with the RAS when I was either cross-cutting thin stock or cutting narrow dadoes with the regular blade, when I'd relaxed my normal "stiff arm" approach to the RAS and had the blade climb on top of the board (self-feeding to the extreme) - but as long as you understand the tool and don't allow the blade to self feed (the "stiff arm" approach) it's fine.

Haven't yet had the SCMS do anything scary, and I've tried both methods of cutting, in both hard and soft woods... Steve

[J.R. Rutter]

Haven't yet had the SCMS do anything scary, and I've tried both methods of cutting, in both hard and soft woods... Steve

Well I have some nice scars on my right thumb where the SCMS blade bound up in some tension wood and jumped up and towards me. My hand slipped off the handle because it happened so fast, and the blade was into my thumb before the guard could retract. I say push cut with the SCMS, with the pivoting head, and climb cut with the RAS.

[Rich Dorffer]

Growing up with a radial arm saw, you always pulled it through the material and this is no different than a sliding compound miter saw with the exception that the saw can pivots upward. This also differs compared to our Delta Sawbuck which you pulled through the material and also is rigid.

You can always check this link:

http://66.77.255.87/Images/BOSCHPDF/4410L_pdf/PDF_MANUAL/4410L.pdf

And sure enough, on page 5 (and further on page 26) it states to push the saw through the material.

Regards,

Rich - with a new 4410L in route...

[Bart Leetch]

From the Ridgid SCMS manual.

Never make a cut by pulling the saw toward you
as the blade can climb on top of the workpiece
and come toward you. Failure to heed this warning
could result in serious personal injury.
TO SLIDE CUT
See Figures 32 - 33.
The sliding feature will cut workpieces 13-1/2 in. wide by
3-1/2 in. thick. With the saw off, pull the saw arm forward.
Turn the saw on (let blade reach maximum speed),
then push the blade down on top of the workpiece then
back toward the rear of the saw to make a cut. Cuts are
made by: (1) pushing the saw blade away from you and
toward the bevel scale at the back of the saw stopping
when the full rear position has been reached after each
cut. When the saw is running (turned on), NEVER pull
the saw blade toward you or toward the front of the saw.
 Raise saw arm to its full height.
 Place the workpiece flat on the miter table with one edge
securely against the fence. If the board is warped, place
the convex side against the fence. If the concave edge
of a board is placed against the fence, the board could
collapse on the blade at the end of the cut, jamming the
blade. See Figures 48 - 49.
 When cutting long pieces of lumber or molding, support
the opposite end of the stock with a roller stand or with
a work surface level with the saw table. See Figure 41.
 Align the cutting line on the workpiece with the edge of
saw blade.
 Loosen the slide lock knob by turning the knob counterclockwise.
 Grasp the stock firmly with one hand and secure it against
the fence. Use the optional work clamp or a C-clamp to
secure the workpiece when possible.
 Before turning on the saw, perform a dry run of the cutting
operation to make sure that no problems will occur
when the cut is made.
 With the saw off, grasp the saw handle firmly then pull
the saw forward until the blade arbor (center of the saw
blade) is over the front of the workpiece.
 Depress the switch lock with thumb then squeeze the
switch trigger. Allow several seconds for the blade to
reach maximum speed.
 Slowly lower the blade into and through the front edge
of the workpiece.
 Push the saw handle away from you and toward the bevel
scale at the back of the saw.
Fig. 32
SLIDE CUT
Fig. 33
SLIDE SAW ARM
FORWARD THEN
PUSH DOWN
PUSH
BACK
 Release the switch trigger and allow the saw blade to
stop rotating before raising the blade out of workpiece
and removing the workpiece from miter table.

From the Makita LS1212 manual

2. Slide (push) cutting (cutting wide workpieces)
Loosen the knob counterclockwise so that the carriage
can slide freely. Secure the workpiece with the vise. Pull
the carriage toward you fully. Switch on the tool without
the blade making any contact and wait until the blade
attains full speed. Press down the handle and PUSH
THE CARRIAGE TOWARD THE GUIDE FENCE AND
THROUGH THE WORKPIECE. When the cut is completed,
switch off the tool and WAIT UNTIL THE BLADE
HAS COME TO A COMPLETE STOP before returning
the blade to its fully elevated position.
CAUTION:
• Whenever performing the slide cut, FIRST PULL THE
CARRIAGE TOWARD YOU FULLY and press down the
handle to the fully lowered position, then PUSH THE
CARRIAGE TOWARD THE GUIDE FENCE. NEVER
START THE CUT WITH THE CARRIAGE NOT FULLY
PULLED TOWARD YOU. If you perform the slide cut
without pulling the carriage fully or if you perform the
slide cut toward your direction, the blade may kickback
unexpectedly with the potential to cause serious
PERSONAL INJURY.

I am not sure if those of you with questions about this type of saw have ever had the chance to read the manual or not but I fully believe that this saying will save many people form getting hurt.

"Before using any power tools let's take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember, there is no more important rule than to wear these, safety glasses."


Norm's Safety Speech

[Brian Jarnell]

OK, I have just been watching a free DVD that came with a magazine. In it the guy was cutting using a SCMS. I always pull out, drop down and push cut.

This guy was pull cutting through the material. Surely that is wrong...

Ralph:(
I agree with you pard.
Wouldn't consider pulling through.

[Steve Leverich]

Good points guys; I'd not considered that the SCMS is MADE to be able to climb up, where the RAS needs to WORK at it to climb the material; I'd been doing it mostly the right way on the new SCMS, now it'll be ALWAYS push cuts, thanks for the heads up... Steve

[Steveo O'Banion]

I am not sure if those of you with questions about this type of saw have ever had the chance to read the manual or not but I fully believe that this saying will save many people form getting hurt.

Right. The manual written by lawyers:D.

I'm not sure it really matters. The saw on a RAS rotates the same direction as the SCMS, the forces are the same except the SCMS can raise off of the work. Reading the manual won't help you if you don't take the rudimentry steps to work safely (like safety glasses) or do something foolish like putting your hands in harms way or cutting a piece too small.

Steve

[Brad Townsend]

Having done a lot of work on a RAS, I too don't see anything terribly wrong with pull cutting. But then it may also have something to do with the tooth angle on the blade. It would seen that blades designed for RASs and miter saws with a negative hook angle would have less of a tendency to climb through the workpiece.

[Steve Leverich]

After thinking about it a bit more, I think there's a BIG difference between using the RAS and the SCMS, or ANY chop saw - the RAS isn't hinged to allow the blade to climb the work, without something bending or being forced.

The chop saw has nothing stopping it from climbing except your reaction time and strength. At this point I'll NOT use a pull cut on a chop saw, ever... Steve

[Bart Leetch]

Having done a lot of work on a RAS, I too don't see anything terribly wrong with pull cutting. But then it may also have something to do with the tooth angle on the blade. It would seen that blades designed for RASs and miter saws with a negative hook angle would have less of a tendency to climb through the workpiece.


There isn't ANYTHING WRONG WITH A PULL CUT ON A RAS ITS THE WAY ITS MEANT TO BE USED.:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Bart Leetch]

Right. The manual written by lawyers:D.

I'm not sure it really matters. The saw on a RAS rotates the same direction as the SCMS, the forces are the same except the SCMS can raise off of the work. Reading the manual won't help you if you don't take the rudimentry steps to work safely (like safety glasses) or do something foolish like putting your hands in harms way or cutting a piece too small.

Steve

Steve this isn't necessarily pointed at you it quotes your post only because I've see this statement all to often.:):D

The SCMS has a clamp to hold the work down a RAS doesn't the whole idea it that either saw can pick up the material on a push back through cut & throw it. The SCMS doesn't have the big heavily structured arm that the RAS has so it may torque & twist the support structure if you used it on a pull through type cut instead of clamping the material down & pulling the saw forward & pushing it down & pushing it back through the material.


I don't think I'll ever understand why people can't just accept the directions that come with a tool & or the input from people that have used a tool safely for many years especially when the written directions & the word of the experienced person are exactly the same. Especially for the SCMS & RAS. These 2 tools seem to screw with peoples head space more than any other tool on the market.

I have to be honest here I have never used a SCMS but have read several of the manufactures manuals & they all say the same thing clamp the material pull the saw head forward start the motor pull the head down & push the saw back through the material.

All RAS manuals say to pull the saw head through the cut & that is what I've done safely for approximately 41 years.

[Todd Jensen]

Yes, it'll climb towards you. Never never never pull cut with a slider. An RAS doesn't have the pivot point like a SCMS.

[Brad Townsend]

There isn't ANYTHING WRONG WITH A PULL CUT ON A RAS ITS THE WAY ITS MEANT TO BE USED.:D:D:D:D:D:D
Thanks Bart. I was implying that I didn't see anything wrong with doing it ON A MITER SAW. And I still don't, if the right blade is being used.

[Brian Kent]

As a non-SCMS user, which of these applies?

SCMS Saginaw County Medical Society (Michigan)
SCMS Scalable Cluster Monitoring System
SCMS School of Communication and Management Studies
SCMS Serial Copy Management System
SCMS Ship Control Management System
SCMS Signal Command Management System
SCMS Sliding Compound Miter Saw
SCMS Smart Card Management System
SCMS Smile Cluster Management System (Beowulf clusters)
SCMS Snohomish County Mycological Society (Everett, Washington)
SCMS Society for Cinema and Media Studies
SCMS Sodium Components Maintenance Shop
SCMS Software Configuration Management System
SCMS Space Coast Middle School
SCMS Sprint Configuration Management System
SCMS Standard Configuration Management System
SCMS Substation Control and Monitoring System
SCMs Supplementary Cementitious Material (concrete)

[Steve Leverich]

Specific to wood working, it's Sliding Compound Miter Saw, or "D, none of the above" ;) Steve

Oops, missed it - it WAS in the list...

[Rob Bodenschatz]

As a non-SCMS user, which of these applies?

SCMS Saginaw County Medical Society (Michigan)
SCMS Scalable Cluster Monitoring System
SCMS School of Communication and Management Studies
SCMS Serial Copy Management System
SCMS Ship Control Management System
SCMS Signal Command Management System
SCMS Sliding Compound Miter Saw
SCMS Smart Card Management System
SCMS Smile Cluster Management System (Beowulf clusters)
SCMS Snohomish County Mycological Society (Everett, Washington)
SCMS Society for Cinema and Media Studies
SCMS Sodium Components Maintenance Shop
SCMS Software Configuration Management System
SCMS Space Coast Middle School
SCMS Sprint Configuration Management System
SCMS Standard Configuration Management System
SCMS Substation Control and Monitoring System
SCMs Supplementary Cementitious Material (concrete)

Number 7.
__________

[Rob Will]

As a non-SCMS user, which of these applies?

SCMS Saginaw County Medical Society (Michigan)
SCMS Scalable Cluster Monitoring System
SCMS School of Communication and Management Studies
SCMS Serial Copy Management System
SCMS Ship Control Management System
SCMS Signal Command Management System
SCMS Sliding Compound Miter Saw
SCMS Smart Card Management System
SCMS Smile Cluster Management System (Beowulf clusters)
SCMS Snohomish County Mycological Society (Everett, Washington)
SCMS Society for Cinema and Media Studies
SCMS Sodium Components Maintenance Shop
SCMS Software Configuration Management System
SCMS Space Coast Middle School
SCMS Sprint Configuration Management System
SCMS Standard Configuration Management System
SCMS Substation Control and Monitoring System
SCMs Supplementary Cementitious Material (concrete)

That's nothing, I had the same problem when we were discussing bandsaws and had to Wikipedia "BS" to figure out what the discussion was about.:rolleyes:;)

Rob