No 4 Smooth Plane - Std or Low Angle

[John Hedges]

I am looking to get another plane. I don't do a lot of handtool work, but presently I have a LN low angle block plane, and an Old no5 Stanley. I have found myself needing something in the middle to do some trim and finish work. I have been looking at the LN No. 4 smoothing plane as it seems to be the right size for what I want, and I love how the LN planes feel.

While I was looking at it today at Woodcraft the salesman mentioned that he prefers the Low Angle Smoother. He mentioned that it will have less tearout on figured wood, and while the angle on the regular No 4 is made more for hardwood that the low angle smoother works just as well. I work pretty much exclusively with hardwoods myself. I was wondering what the experts here suggest I get between the 2.

Thanks

[Peter Tremblay]

Personally I love my LA LV Jack and as a result I like to recommend low angle planes in general. I can shoot the end of a board then quickly go to smoothing by changing the blade to one that I have ground to a higher angle.
The LN is a great choice and a smoother can do both for you and all you need is two or more blades, not different frogs. I do like that part of their design.

Peter

[Don C Peterson]

I have the LN low angel Jack and I love it. It's about as close to a "do it all" plane as I can imagine. I have several irons that I switch out depending on the task. The standard 25 degree for end grain, there's another one that's ground to about 35 for dealing with "interesing" grain, and I just added a 90 degree iron that turns it into a fine scraper plane. In the next few weeks they are going to have a "Hot Dog" attachment available for the #62 that will make it even better for shooting.

With the likely exception of shooting, the low angle smoother is every bit as versitle.

[Bob Oehler]

I have a LV Veritas low angle smoother and I just love it. Just finished planing the mill marks off a whole bunch of cherry with some nice figure in it. Never tore once. Highly recomend the LV. Lie Neilsen has one that is comperable but I do not own that plane but I would have to assume it is on par with all the other great LN stuff I have. I guess it boils down to the old Ford or Chevy thing. :D


Take Care
Bob Oehler

[Mark Stutz]

John,
Traditional wisdom says the the higher pitched planes will do better, hence the HNT Gordon planes, and York pitch frogs available on LN bench planes. That's not to say the some PREFER to use low angle planes, but properly sharpened I don't think that one can say that the standard bench plane won't do the job most of the time. There is definitely a different feel to the low angle planes.

[Rob Luter]

I have the LV Low Angle (Bevel Up) Jack plane and can't say enough good things about it. I bought all three available blades (25, 37, and 50 degree) to accommodate whatever I'm working with. It's about all I ever use, to the extent that I've been thinking of selling all my Stanley bench planes and picking up the other LV bevel up bench planes.

[Jim Newman]

I have both the Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Jack and Smoother and are both great planes! The Smoother is very refined and feels great in your hands and does a super job on the wood. I bought mine when Tom (Lie-Nielsen) first made each plane available 15+ years ago, so did not know about the Low Angle Plane "Revolution" going on now. I have just learned from using them they perform admirably in most situations. I also intend to pick up a 4 1/2 from Tom in the future as well. I do have a LN #7 with a high angle frog and it tears out more than the low angle planes I have noticed, but have not closed the mouth down much yet. I also have Spiers and Norris planes with very small mouths due to Hock 3/16" replacement blades and the Low Angles seem to do about as well with the mouths closed down planing sqirrely oak 8/4 boards. Using planes is very addictive and one type will probably not be enough, so just go with your gut and enjoy as there is no right or wrong! I second your opinion that Lie-Nielsen planes feel and perform great, but in the end, it is about what YOU like as someone else will be different. I have personally met Tom several times and I can see why his planes are as good as they are and personally I feel are a great value that will stand the test of time very well. I have talked with Leonard Lee once and he has a different philosopy and does things very well and is a true gentleman and you see it in the superior customer service of his company Lee Valley/Veritas as he treats you like family. That being said Lie-Nielsen just sent me a replacement "new style" chipbreaker about 8 months ago for my #7 and refused to charge me for it, when I called to order it. They also sent me a replacement front knob for my low angle jack, when I sent it back to grind out some scratches. Again, they refused to charge me. Tom is not trying to get rich is my point. Frankly, we are in a "golden age" of some exceptional craftsman and just darn good people who run these companies and a few others as well. You cannot go wrong dealing with such people and their products, so enjoy, good luck and keep us informed of your experiences as sharing them is half the fun IMHO!!!

Best wishes,
Jim

[Ken Werner]

... Tom is not trying to get rich is my point. ...


Jim, I don't know if Tom L-N is trying to get rich or not. I would guess he's making a nice living. My point is, that treating you the way he did, is not only really good behavior, it's also really good for business, even if it costs the vendor more up front. Thanks for sharing your good experiences.

Ken

[Jake Darvall]

Just a standard plane for me. Backbevel if needed to deal with difficult timber.

[Eddie Darby]

I see that you like the Lie-Nielsen plane that you have, so I would suggest that you consider the LN #4 with the option of having a higher angle frog to tackle the wilder grain wood.

LN offer 50 degree frogs for the no.4 .......
and 50 and 55 degree frogs for the wider planes, such as the no.4 1/2 .

I have both low angle block planes, and bench planes with the high angle frog option, from LV and LN. Both work, and I am happy with both.

LA requires more time sharpening and wears the blade faster, but is more flexible, so someone just starting out, can tackle a larger number of jobs with them if they get additional blades.

If you go to a WoodShow, you usually get a chance to try some planes out, which is always nice when you are just starting out. Feel is very important.

[Don C Peterson]

I know there have been some disscussions about low angle planes presenting sharpening problems, but I have never seen any problems in my experience.

I don't use back bevels on either the BU or BD planes and I really don't notice a difference in either the wear or the sharpening process.

I think there is certainly a place for traditional BD bench planes, but the BU low angle jack and smoothers from LN and LV are really hard to beat for versitility and bang for the buck.

[Preston Baxter]

I'm new to the creek and though I would join in on the discussion.

I have both the LN 164 LA Smoother and a LN #4 with the high angle frog. However I only use the 164 for endgrain work. The #4 with a 50deg frog has worked so well that I haven't seen the need to use the 164 with a steeper bevel on long grain.

I hone my #4's blade with a camber for smoothing. David Charleswoth points out that it is more difficult to properly camber a blade for a LA plane due to the lower bed angle, thus you have to add much more camber to get the same effective result. He demonstrates this effect by sighting down a coin held at the two different bed angles on his planing video.

I find the standard bevel down planes a little more comfortable in use because I can rest my index finger along the edge of the frog, pointing forward, adding more control. However, with the 164 I can rest my index finger on the adjuster knob, but it still seems awkward. I hold all my tools this way, saws, chisels, and planes. I once tried a LN 62 LA jack and hated it because there was nowhere to put your index finger and the tote seemed to far back, kind of a closed fist grip with no control.

The 164 is more versatile than the #4, but keep in mind that you will need to switch between two blades for planing long grain and end grain. This is where having both planes is more convienient.

[lowell holmes]

I have a LV bevel up Jack that I use for smoothing and I also have a LN 4 1/2 that is a real delight to use. I wouldn't want to give up either. I recommend the 4 1/2 over a #4.

[Lewis Moon]

Just a standard plane for me. Backbevel if needed to deal with difficult timber.
Same here. Sweetheart Stanley with a Hock blade and chip breaker.
Nice #4 = $20-$40 on Ebay
Hock #4 blade = $33 + shipping
Hock chip breaker = $19.75 + shipping
Time flattening the sole and fetteling = 2 hours at most
Knowing you just spent only $80 for a fine working plane that is also a piece of history = Priceless.

If I need a heavier plane I reach for my Sweetheart 4 1/2.

[Bill McDermott]

I agree with your plan to add a #4 smoother to the collection you have. You'll get good use from it. Use the 5 relatively heavy and the 4 light. Good 1-2 combination.

Since you started by saying "you don't do a lot of handwork", I'll assume you haven't tried a shooting board yet. If that's the case, you might want to put something real simple together and see how your #5 runs on it. I mention this because that is the area where I always go the the bevel up planes. This common use may influence your decision as some planes are better suited to shooting than others.

My solution was to spend money on the new technology in the bevel up planes and spend time tuning up great old planes (e.g. Stanley #4) widely available for very little cash. A good old #4 strikes me as a foundational tool.

The old plane cost less than the extra blade for the new plane. So you can rationlize getting both! : )