Home Depot Oak Plywood Rant and Safety Warning

[Charlie Barnes]

Good Afternoon All,

I haven't been on this site for quite some time so I apologize in advance if this has already been covered. Long story short, I've been building some cabinets for my basement over the last couple of months and have been using 3/4" oak plywood for the cases. I was using some left over plywood from several months ago to start with, but had to purchase some additional sheets to finish the job. All of it was purchased at my local Home Depot in Cincinnati.

First, the quality of the sheets has gone down significantly. They are "wavy" and bowed. Even shorter pieces in the 24" to 36" range have a significant bow after being cut. This makes it very difficult to build cases that are really square and true. You really have to get creative with clamps and shims just to work with the material.

As if this weren't bad enough, I noticed that there were sparks flying off of the blade of my circular saw when I was rough cutting the last sheet. After I finished the cut, I found that there was a metal shim or something embedded in the middle thickness of the sheet right where I had cut. I was lucky that it stayed in the wood and didn't go flying.

I shot a note to the Home Depot email address on their web site just to let them know what was going on. I see that the sheets are clearly marked "Made in China" on the edge, so I suspect that this may have something to do with the quality problem. I don't know if they have changed suppliers or what, but the quality has gone down significantly from what they used to carry.

I'm done with Home Depot plywood. I'll buy my next sheets at Lowes. I don't know if the quality is any better, but it's hard to believe that it could be any worse.

Thanks. I feel better.

Charlie

[Al Willits]

HD and the other borgs have been brought up many times, but always a good reminder.

Run into a commerical cabinet shop guy loading plywood from HD, as we're walking by the wife mentions that if he can use it why not us, he happened to over hear and said he'd only use this stuff where warpage, strenght or looks didn't matter, anything else was bought at a lumberyard.

I found it was good practice stuff, and made a few cabinets or shelfs out of it for the garage, hard to justify the high buck stuff to learn on.

Although I'm now leaning towards the shop grade stuff from a lumber yard for even that now.

Al

[Brad Townsend]

I noted today in the news that the guy who took Home Depot down to its current shabby state is now riding Chrysler into ruin, as they lay off 12,000 workers. I'm sure when Chrysler is done with him, he'll walk off with a handsome severance package like he did at Home Depot. Is it any wonder American business is getting it's butt kicked!

[Paul Johnstone]

Yep, I stopped using HD plywood a couple years ago for anything I cared about. Then, like you, I was building some shop shelves.. didn't care how they looked.

The plywood piles were uneven inside (layers on top of each other). Lots of voids. Huge areas where the layers were coming apart.

Worse I've ever seen.

The sad thing is that about 10 years ago, they charged $10 more per sheet, but it was good stuff. B grade, and you could use the whole sheet.

[Alex Carrera]

I absolutely despise HD. There's one a mile from my house, and I keep going there out of convenience. Every single time I go there I walk away pissed about something.

[Dick Bringhurst]

I normally don't shop at HD because of, among other things, poor quality and terrible service. But, I got in a bind and bought some 2' x 4' pieces of 1/2" ply the other day. I found the stuff was warped; it delaminated; and. a portion of it was only 7/16th thick. I returned it and they commented "oh, not again". Dick B.

[Lee Schierer]

Good Afternoon All,
As if this weren't bad enough, I noticed that there were sparks flying off of the blade of my circular saw when I was rough cutting the last sheet. After I finished the cut, I found that there was a metal shim or something embedded in the middle thickness of the sheet right where I had cut. I was lucky that it stayed in the wood and didn't go flying.

I shot a note to the Home Depot email address on their web site just to let them know what was going on. I see that the sheets are clearly marked "Made in China" on the edge, so I suspect that this may have something to do with the quality problem. I don't know if they have changed suppliers or what, but the quality has gone down significantly from what they used to carry.


I would suspect that if you returned to the store with the piece having the embedded metal in it in hand and polietly spoke with the store manager you might not only get a new piece of plywood, but he might also give you a saw blade or at least a store gift card with some money on it for your trouble.

HD isn't my facvorite source for wood, but they and the Blue store are the only place in town where any sort of hardwood faced plywood is available that I've found. I look through their stack and get the best pieces. If I don't find an acceptable piece I go down the block to the other one.

[Don Stutsman]

Charlie,

I hate to break it to you but US made cabinet plywood is becoming scarce, I just bought some maple plywood from a hardwood supplier and when I noted it was marked 'made in china', he said they had not been able to get US made cabinet plywood in some time. On the surface, it looks good (it should based on the high dollar cost) but I haven't cut any of it yet - this weekend will tell.

I agree that you should take the wood back to HD. I've had good luck with returns for quality reasons.

[Paul Gatti]

I look through their stack and get the best pieces. If I don't find an acceptable piece I go down the block to the other one.

Regardless of where I buy plywood, I always inspect each and every piece. Even at the local lumber yards that specialize in plywood, I dig through the stacks. This means that I need to bring along someone to help me lift the sheets off the stack. Sometimes we'll have to go through an entire stack to get 3 pieces that don't look like potato chips. I always make sure that I neatly put back pieces that I don't buy. The lumber yards that don't let me pick through the stacks don't get my business. I agree that the quality of plywood at HD is especially bad. I have found that the 2x4's, 2x6's, etc are not too bad at HD.

[Jack Ganssle]

Among wood boaters Chinese ply has always been (in)famous for its poor quality. I had a boat built in China in 1961, planked entirely in teak (can you imagine!) but using an under-deck layer of plywood, which was horribly delaminated. Every other similar boat I ran into had the same problem.

[Bill Wyko]

I bought some of their cabinet grade ply to do the floor on my workshop. Great for a shop floor but I'd never build a cabinet with it. It wants to warp and has a lot of variation in thickness. 5x5 birch is even out of square but at least it's flat. Everyone these days seem to be making plenty of JUNK. I'm in electronics and I've seen a downfall in quality there too.:mad:

[mike wacker]

This thread is really timely. Just sent kid #2 and #3 off to college this fall. Still have #4 but he really likes the shop so its fun. Finally re-aquainting my self with my tools.

I have a big (for me) Cabinet project going. Horse Shoe shape in the end of a long deep garage. My shop. 30 feet total length. I'm experimenting several products. Birch and Maple ply, Melmine (sp), MDF, etc. HD and Lowes Birch, Maple and Oak all run in the mid $40's per sheet. They pretty much aren't good for much more than sub-flooring. I did find a "hard wood plywood (Poplar veneer) that was $25 per sheet and appropriately priced and stable enough for me to experiment with.

Found the Wholesale (but they are nice and sale retail) Sheet goods supplier for a big chunk of New England. Yup they had Chinese 4x8 sheets of 3/4 birch. But it was $39 a sheet and at least two grades above the BORG's junk. They had the good stuff too. REALLY nice, But $60 and climbing. Maybe I'll get good enough to do that justice.

[Kevin Groenke]

RANT ON

I don't recall a single instance in which I visited a HD that they were not out of something that I needed. If I need 1 thing, 3/4"x10'EMT conduit and 1"x1"x3/4" copper T most recently, they don't have it. These are hardware store essentials, not oddball stuff, and it's out of stock. I thought these borgs had high tech inventory maintenance systems, and you're out of 3/4" CONDUIT???.

Ohhh do I lament the closing of the corner hardware the used to be 100yards from my back door. They ALWAYS had what I needed, if by some oddity they didn't, Andy (the owner, who was usually in house) would personally add it to his order sheet, and he would call me when it got there. BTW, I didn't kill my hardware store, I never minded giving Andy 10-30% more than the borg, because I knew he wasn't squirreling it away in tax-sheltered, off-shore investments, and he didn't have a golden parachute when he decided to hop onto the next sinking ship.

And what's with screws??? $.99 for a little bag with 4-#10machine screws in it??? YGTBSM!! When I go to the hometown farm store, ANY hardware (except the weird sh!+) is $1/lb. Why don't they just ROB us? I've developed my own fastener warehouse in the basement so that I NEVER have to buy 4 screws for a dollar from a borg.

The plywood... my only question is where does the birch in chinese plywood from the borg come from? If it comes from anywhere other than china (especially the US), we're in big trouble.

RANT OFF

sorry, this wasn't the place for that,
and I don't even feel better.
-kg

[tim mathis]

hi , i use the stuff from hd and lowe's at work ( oak and birch $40.00). the red glue smells when you cut it. uneven thickness , voids , bowed and try to put a finish on it 4 coats of helmsman and it still looks bad in places and still rough.i don't think this crap is graded, i can't find any markings other than "china" on it.i think they intend for you to pour the finish on so it soaks through to the other side to help the glue hold it together.

now when i make somthing nice and highly visable i go to requarth lumber in dayton and get "roseburg" brand made in usa $78.00 each 4x8 oak or birch.it is marked a1 , alot less voids but i can tell the quality has gone down from where it was a year ago.
thanks china poison our animals ,lead poison our kids, our tooth paste,ect.....and thanks for screwing up our wood too.

[Leland Berry]

:mad: LOWES ARRIVED !!!!--Not 1 nickle of my money will be spent
with a business-HD- where employees , lower/mid-mgmt
included, could care less whether they have my business.
--When I have to load 180 2x4s, or 1650 Cedar pickets
while employees stand around and play grab-ass, I took
my $35,000 +/ yr business where its appreciated !!!

[Tom Cowie]

I finished up some cabinets this summer with some plywood from Lowes. It was made in China ,it was stamped on the edge. Absolute junk! Veneer so thin anything but light hand sanding went right through it. I stopped by Home Depot to see if they had something better ,I found the same stuff only a dollar cheaper. It's definitely getting harder to find good plywood.

Tom

[Todd Jensen]

You guys just need to do what all the cabinet builders are doing now and just build with particle board. :eek: Its pretty sad that when I started 10 years ago you'd see it in closet packs, but its becoming more and more common with kitchen and bath cabinetry from sort've nice companies. I guess it must be more stable than the junk plywood thats available. We might be witnessing the middle of the end of halfway affordable decent wood products. Good thing the residential housing market is doing so poorly and diesel is up to $3.70/gallon.:eek:

Oh well, I gotta go finish my meteor helmet - the sky is definitely falling.:D

...and as much as I hate the HD's & Lowes, they do offer a wide selection of power tools at relatively affordable prices. I've found the smaller guys to have no selection, high prices, and still treat you like a jerk. Just my experiences.

[Bill Huber]

Well I will have to say the last time I got some plywood from HD it was crap. It was just a 2x4 footer and it was warped. I use it because I used screws to pull it all down.
Now that first layer is a real thick one, don't even drag some sandpaper over it or its gone.

[Alan Trout]

I have been using some of the junk plywood for some cabinets and being they are being painted it is Ok. Not the best but I can deal with it. Many years ago Home Depot had a product from Brazil called Para-Ply. I built a lot of cabinets out of that and it worked great. I wish they would get the Para-Ply back.

As far as service goes Home Depot and Lowe's pretty much run neck and neck. They both suck on equal levels in my part of the country. You can never find anyone to help either place. However as of late I have noticed Home Depot has made quite a bit of improvements in both the cleanlyness of the stores and the level of help. I actually had a pearson come up to me the other day and offer assistance. :eek:

Good Luck

Alan

[ROBERT ELLIS]

Sorry to break the bad news to you Charlie but your still gonna have to look your plywood over very closely even with Lowes. Last year I bought some OSB to finish out a room inside my shop. One sheet had a couple large bolts embedded into the plywood. You could actually make out the bolts size, threads, etc. I was glad I noticed them before I cut into them.

Just a few months ago I went to the same Lowes to buy a sheet of OSB for the shop...and you guessed it, another bolt embedded in the plywood. At least the manufacturer is consistent - it looked like the same size bolt.

Robert

[Jake Helmboldt]

Bottom line, this all boils down to the fact that we are a throw-away society that has become used to cheap crap and craftsmanship largely went the way of the dodo bird as a result. In the race to the bottom people simply want to know how cheap it will be and are happy with wood-grained vinyl anything.

We had a kitchen renovation/addition done 1.5 yrs ago (and we're still involved in a lawsuit over that) and the @#$# piece of garbage contractor used what looks like sheething for interior painted surfaces in some places. I could use the surface as a rasp! The sad thing is most people would never notice it so contractors have figured out that they can build crap and people will be happy. And of course the borgs and even some lumberyards have figured out they can provide crap to build crap and people will be happy.:mad:

I'm going to bed.

[glenn bradley]

My local lumber yard has good quality ply and is cheaper than the BORG. Talk about a win-win. Check some lumber supply outfits in your area, you may be surprised. If there are no lumber yards nearby, talk to a local cabinet shop and see if you can 'ride along' on one of their orders.

[Denny Rice]

I was in a recently built Menards the other day and was looking at their 3/4" Birch plywood. I was amazed, I don't use a lot of plywood but it was stamped "china" on both ends! What has this country become. We continue to do business with a country that puts anti-freeze in toothpate, lead in toys , and sells 3rd rate lumber. :( Its a sad day indeed.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have seen some of the Chinese plywood in big box stores in Canada as well.

The plywood has no standards markings, so you couldn't use in it in building construction, and as for cabinet work.........

The problem isn't that the Chinese make junk, the problem is that we want to have high wages ourselves, while begrudging anyone else the same wages.

In North America, the mantra has become cheap, cheap, cheap, and the suppliers have to supply us what we want.

Not convinced? Why do Delta and Powermatic make their equipment offshore? Is it because they couldn't find skilled workers in North America?

No the answer is our quest for cheap, cheap, cheap, so we've finally reaped what we have sown. We now have cheap goods, not inexpensive, just cheap. Powermatic and Delta found that their North American customers wouldn't pay for a made in North America product.

The remaining manufacturer, General has a line of Canadian machinery, and a line of imported machinery (General International). How long General continues to manufacture in Canada, will be determined by how much we value North American machinery, and hence are willing to pay for it.

For some reason we aren't smart enough to realize that quality, and a certain standard of living require a certain cost.

Keep shopping based upon price alone, and perhaps the remaining machinery/wood products/tool/food/clothing manufacturers will fold up and more cheap goods will be imported.

Once we get to the stage where our neighbour is un-employed and cannot afford post secondary education for their children, we'll realize too late that we sold our future to be able to buy a tin of tuna 10 cents cheaper.

regards, Rod.

[Dick Bringhurst]

Amen! Dick B.

[Mike Seals]

I have been using some of the junk plywood for some cabinets and being they are being painted it is Ok. Not the best but I can deal with it. Many years ago Home Depot had a product from Brazil called Para-Ply. I built a lot of cabinets out of that and it worked great. I wish they would get the Para-Ply back.

As far as service goes Home Depot and Lowe's pretty much run neck and neck. They both suck on equal levels in my part of the country. You can never find anyone to help either place. However as of late I have noticed Home Depot has made quite a bit of improvements in both the cleanlyness of the stores and the level of help. I actually had a pearson come up to me the other day and offer assistance. :eek:

Good Luck

Alan

If you have a McCoys near by, check them out for the Para-Ply, ours still has some.

[Chris McDowell]

I don't like using Chinese plywood in my shop, but it's become a reality. Just picked up a new order of prefinished 3/4 and 1/2. Every piece straight and flat, nicely finished, and I hate to say this , but far superior to any american plywood I have used in the recent months.
I cut all the parts out for a whole house including kitchen, and bathrooms with no problems. My supplier told me Chinese plywood is like a lot of things. It depends on what mill it comes from. They have better grade mills with standards and those that don't care. I will leave you to the conclusion which kind the box stores order from.
I would love to use good old usa plywood, but from a business stand point I can't pay $20 a sheet more for a product that is inferior. It's a sad day when made in America means nothing.

Chris

[Bert Johansen]

I had an experience similar to Chris last time I purchased ply. I always buy lumber from a reputable lumberyard, and I noticed the huge stack of ply with "Made in China" stamped all over it. When I questioned the owner about the quality he said he had done a lot of searching to find a reputable source, and said this was good stuff. Indeed, it is good quality with few voids and dead flat. So, the best advice I can give is the obvious: a) avoid the Borgs and b) use a reputable lumberyard for your purchases.

[Jon Lanier]

I think just like Harbor Freight, all the stores have some good and bad about them. Just need to be careful of what you buy and where.

[Todd Jensen]

I agree with Jon - I've been ping ponging between my hatred for Lowes/Home Depot for quite some time now - now I just go to both and take 'em for what they are. If there were a line of guys out of each store demanding perfect plywood sheets at $100 a pop, they'd stock them in a heartbeat. The truth is they're much more likely to sell a million sheets of junky ply at $35. And MOST people don't care. We all do, and most of us are passionate about it and why we're on this forum. However, reality dictates. Someday I'll have built all of the furniture in our home from beautiful hardwoods; the reality is I watch tv shows on a Chinese box laying on an Ikea sofa. :rolleyes: And if construction keeps slowing down, we might not have to worry about it; the Lowes and HDs will shut their doors and we'll be back at Ace hardware paying $100/sheet for the junky ply.:D
Keep your meteor helmets handy, and in the meantime have fun and keep on keepin' on. :D

[Josiah Bartlett]

Sounds like yet another lead-containing product from China.

(ducks)

[Jeff Raymond]

Hey, this sounds like the beginning of a 12-step program?

Step One: I am powerless over shopping at HD?

[Rob Diz]

The ply at HD warps like mad. The LAST time I got some ply there, I cut it and my shop smelled like I had been keeping some karp laying out in the sun for a week or so. Then the pieces started to warp.

I live in Cincinnati, and sometimes the local Lowes will carry ply made in the pacific NW. That's typicaly pretty decent stuff. The other option is to go Frank Paxton and get what you pay for.

Of course, if I need a touch of cheap ply, I'll look at the sheet on top at Lowes, which is almost always damaged, and ask for a discount. I will usually get 50-90 percent off, which prices the ply I need arond what I think it is worth.

But for a project I care about, it's off to Paxton I go.

[Matt Meiser]

My local plywood supplier has a "shop list" which is stuff they've bought closeouts and stuff like that on. It is usually good stuff AND cheaper than what I can buy elsewhere. Even the baltic birch I've bought recently had some tendancy to warp.

As for bolts in OSB--didn't you see the sign "Free hardware inside!" :D

[Bill White]

I would wonder if the borgs use any type search clearing house that follows comments about their business impressions. I know that Lee Valley and Grizzly keep a close eye on their customer responses via the net. Seems to me that a like response from the big boxes would be in their best interest.
Oh well.....Just a thought.
Bill

[Matt Meiser]

I think the only measure most big stores use is $$$.

[Dave McGeehan]

I've never been disappointed with the good quality ply veneered with cherry, walnut, or birch that I buy from my local lumberyard. No surprise: it costs more than HD or Lowe's. It's a simple equation:

Cheap=poor quality.
Higher price=good quality.

[Seth Poorman]

Charlie,

I hate to break it to you but US made cabinet plywood is becoming scarce, I just bought some maple plywood from a hardwood supplier and when I noted it was marked 'made in china', he said they had not been able to get US made cabinet plywood in some time. On the surface, it looks good (it should based on the high dollar cost) but I haven't cut any of it yet - this weekend will tell.

I agree that you should take the wood back to HD. I've had good luck with returns for quality reasons.

Makes me wonder what the cabinet shops are going to do if they cant get
the good American Made plywood ????
I said it once ,Ill say it again,big business is selling this country OUT! Because of the allmighty doller....And the goverment is helping it happen.:mad:
(I guess I need to start a Business and then take it oversees,and then sell my product in the USA) And maybe then I can build a 100,000 sq ft house.and look down on the Guy whos driving piece of crap when Im at Walmart and he is trying to make ends meet to feed his family.)
Im not rich and Im not poor, Im happy and content, If and when I ever start a woodworking Business I would be happy to employ american workers and work side by side w/ them at the same amount of pay.:)
Some day the American consumer is going WAKE UP......

[Seth Poorman]

I just got off the phone w/ my local lumber yard and they also told me that its getting harder to find good American made plywood,they informed me that they get theres from Canada and the west coast !!!!:)
They also informed me that American Gade standered was just lowered:mad: ... Whats up w/ that ?:eek: So now when you buy Grade 1 your getting what used to be Grade 2....:confused: :confused: :confused:
They also told me that the day they start selling imported junk like HD or lowes that would be the end of there store..

[Blake Holton]

I just got off the phone w/ my local lumber yard and they also told me that its getting harder to find good American made plywood,they informed me that they get theres from Canada and the west coast !!!!:)
They also informed me that American Gade standered was just lowered:mad: ... Whats up w/ that ?:eek: So now when you buy Grade 1 your getting what used to be Grade 2....:confused: :confused: :confused:
They also told me that the day they start selling imported junk like HD or lowes that would be the end of there store..

Seth:

I'm not sure what your local lumber yard was referring to when they said that the "American Grade standard" was just lowered. Most manufactures in the US of hardwood plywood manufacture their products in compliance with HPVA (Hardwood Plywood and Veneer Association) standards that are very clear and strict on the definition of general quality, including face and back grades. The last change to the standard was in 2004.

As always, it is best to know and understand the grades and quality specifications. A good lumber yard should have a copy of the standard and should be willing to show you the grade description and point out how their product complies with the standard.

Now, if we're talking about Chinese wood, well, that is another topic.

Regards,

Blake

[Wilbur Pan]

No, the answer is our quest for cheap, cheap, cheap, so we've finally reaped what we have sown. We now have cheap goods, not inexpensive, just cheap. Powermatic and Delta found that their North American customers wouldn't pay for a made in North America product.

I was going to write something to this extent, but Rod beat me to it, and said it in terms that were much more polite than I would have used.

I find it ironic that woodworkers, who by an large seem to be very much of a "you're responsible for your own actions" type of mindset, are quick to blame China for issues that boil down to one thing: an unwillingness to pay more for a quality product. Last time I checked, no one from China was holding a gun to anyone's head to buy Chinese-made products. If we were willing to pay the difference for quality products, this would be a nonissue.

And as far as the quality of Chinese made products, if you want cheap, you get cheap. This is a completely different issue than whether it is possible to make quality products in China. It is entirely possible to have quality products manufactured in China, if you are willing to pay for it.

In other words, if there was U.S.-made plywood that sold for the same prices as the Chinese-made plywood at the Borgs, it would also warp and have voids to the same extent.

[Seth Poorman]

I was going to write something to this extent, but Rod beat me to it, and said it in terms that were much more polite than I would have used.

I find it ironic that woodworkers, who by an large seem to be very much of a "you're responsible for your own actions" type of mindset, are quick to blame China for issues that boil down to one thing: an unwillingness to pay more for a quality product. Last time I checked, no one from China was holding a gun to anyone's head to buy Chinese-made products. If we were willing to pay the difference for quality products, this would be a nonissue.

And as far as the quality of Chinese made products, if you want cheap, you get cheap. This is a completely different issue than whether it is possible to make quality products in China. It is entirely possible to have quality products manufactured in China, if you are willing to pay for it.

In other words, if there was U.S.-made plywood that sold for the same prices as the Chinese-made plywood at the Borgs, it would also warp and have voids to the same extent.
I guess my main point is the fact that every time I go out to purchase a product all Im finding is imported junk !! Im aware that the chinese are capable making quality products or any other country for that matter.
I will admit that my wife has a Honda 3CL that was built in Ohio and its more american than a friends Ford thats assembled in Mexico and parts from all over the world.
I know no one is holding a gun to my head to buy there product, but its getting to point that we dont really have much of a choice in alot of the products that we are consuming.

[Bryan Cowing]

Cheap sells! I work PT at HD here in Canada. We had 2 lifts of the 3/4" + or - Chinawood. We also carry the Columbia Forest Products oak ply but when we had the cheap chinese ply on the floor, we had no problem selling them as it was $46 compared to the $70+ North American made ply. The quality was terrible, and once sold off we won't be getting anymore in the store but it was amazing to see how fast it moved. I even bought a sheet myself cause most of it would be hidden in the project. :eek: