Question for other Epilog owners

[Jason Lippert]

Because of where the laser is located in our shop, the power switch on the left side of the machine is a little hard to reach. So lately I've been using the emergency stop on the front of the machine to turn it on and off.:) Am I inviting some unforseen problem or disaster? (and yes I realize I sound too lazy to use the real on/off:p) Please tell me I'm not the only one who does this.

[Ed Maloney]

Jason - I don't have your model, but I think you may be looking for trouble with this practice. I believe an emergency switch "abruptly" severs the current flow and would be a strain on the ICs and capacitors. Basically it would be like ripping out the power supply while the machine is on.

[Barbara Buhse]

I have mine hooked to a surge strip, along with the blower. I have that strip attached to the wall in a convenient place, and I use that to turn it on and off...

And now I have the same question about my setup... is it ok to do it this way? The engraver is "on" all the time, and I turn it off by the switch on the power strip.

[Dave West]

I'm not sure I'd have the blower and the laser on the same power strip, let alone the same circuit. Inductive loads such as blowers can send spikes along the line to the laser.

Dave

[Dave Fifield]

Jason, you are the only one who does this :eek: !!

I wouldn't do it. If I had your problem (which I don't), I'd cut a hole for the switch on the RHS panel and move the switch there.

Dave F.

[Peck Sidara]

I'm not sure I'd have the blower and the laser on the same power strip, let alone the same circuit. Inductive loads such as blowers can send spikes along the line to the laser.


Agreed, I recommend having a dedicated circuit for the laser itself. The EXT does a great job with regulating incoming voltage but its best to give the EXT all the electrical attention possible.

Engineering says in theory, there shouldn't be an issue with turning the machine on/off using the e-stop. However, the e-stop turns off the power output of the power supplies only, it doesn't turn the power supplies off. The main switch turns the machine off completely. I recommend using the main switch and getting use to it now before the e-stop becomes a habbit.

HTH,

[Richard Rumancik]

I have mine hooked to a surge strip, along with the blower. I have that strip attached to the wall in a convenient place, and I use that to turn it on and off...

And now I have the same question about my setup... is it ok to do it this way? The engraver is "on" all the time, and I turn it off by the switch on the power strip.

I don't think anybody tried to address Barbara's question which would be a possible solution for Jason . . .

It seems that using the E-Stop is not the way to go. But it would seem to me that a power strip connected only to the laser (not including the blower) should be a legitimate configuration. Usually the input side to the laser is a fuse (or breaker) in series with the switch coupled to a line filter (which then goes to the laser tube power supply and the main board power supply). Using a power strip would mean that you are just moving the switch contacts away from the laser by a few feet. That should normally work fine . . . Peck, tell us if there is a reason it is not. It would be even better if you are using a high-quality surge suppressor (eg 3000 joules or better) instead of just a power bar.

Modifying the wiring is an option but not everybody is comfortable with that, and it could invalidate safety agency approvals, EMI compliance, warranty, re-sale, etc.

[Peck Sidara]

It seems that using the E-Stop is not the way to go. But it would seem to me that a power strip connected only to the laser (not including the blower) should be a legitimate configuration. Usually the input side to the laser is a fuse (or breaker) in series with the switch coupled to a line filter (which then goes to the laser tube power supply and the main board power supply). Using a power strip would mean that you are just moving the switch contacts away from the laser by a few feet. That should normally work fine . . . Peck, tell us if there is a reason it is not. It would be even better if you are using a high-quality surge suppressor (eg 3000 joules or better) instead of just a power bar.

Agreed Richard. A high quality surge suppressor is the best option to turn the machine on and off if the power switch on the machine isn't easily accessible.

[mike wallis]

Another solution if cutting the power to the laser at the plug is NOT a problem is to use a remote outlet plug that the laser plugs into at the outlet. You could then turn the laser on and off with a remote.

Peck would this configuration be a issue?

Possible Issue: "Where did I put that darn remote?"

BTW my Mini 24 is working great!

[Jason Lippert]

I just wanted to say that this is not really a habit for me. I thought I would ask about the ill effects before it became one. (glad I did) I think I'll have our electrician friend hook up a switch like we have our blowers on.

[Rob Bosworth]

I am amazed that Peck did not come on here and shout to the high heavens about using a power strip. In theory they might be OK. In practice, I have had more customers with screwy little electrical problems that were caused by using cheap power strips. I am sure there some high quality power strips available, but who buys those. There are just too many noises that show up and cause little niggling problems when a power strip is used. I even had one customer remove a UPS battery back up unit because his system was developing gremlinitist. (How's that for working in the Halloween theme here.) I know it does not make sense, but anything that can cause power inconsistencies should be eliminated from the loop.

[Scott Shepherd]

I might also suggest using a higher end surge suppressor. Most all of the more expensive ones (not really expensive, you can get them for $30 and up) have an equipment replacement warranty on them.

You can get $100,000 coverage on your laser by using them. If a spike gets through and takes it out, your laser is covered. I've had to use that service before with APC and it paid for about $5,000 worth of equipment I had plugged into their battery backup/surge suppressor.

Something to think about. It's always on the outside of the package. I've seen $50K, $75K, and $100K coverage on the less costly ones.

[Peck Sidara]

In theory they might be OK. In practice, I have had more customers with screwy little electrical problems that were caused by using cheap power strips. I am sure there some high quality power strips available, but who buys those. There are just too many noises that show up and cause little niggling problems when a power strip is used. I even had one customer remove a UPS battery back up unit because his system was developing gremlinitist.


Alot of things should work in theory Mr. Bosworth... like my golf swing fixes. There's no doubt I've seen my fair share of gremlins. A good surge protector is recommended if the on/off switch isn't accessible. Just keep what you've changed in mind if these gremlins start showing up.

[Peck Sidara]

Another solution if cutting the power to the laser at the plug is NOT a problem is to use a remote outlet plug that the laser plugs into at the outlet. You could then turn the laser on and off with a remote.

Peck would this configuration be a issue?

Possible Issue: "Where did I put that darn remote?"

BTW my Mini 24 is working great!

Good to hear your machine's running great Mike. Ideally, I would like to see 2-3 feet on all sides of the machine for cooling and access to the sides when small things accidentally drop down into the machine, making the thread null and void but realize that space is often a luxury not all customers have.

A good surge protector connected to only the machine is probably the best bet.

[Richard Rumancik]

Another solution if cutting the power to the laser at the plug is NOT a problem is to use a remote outlet plug that the laser plugs into at the outlet. You could then turn the laser on and off with a remote.

Peck would this configuration be a issue?!


A possible issue to the remote idea: what if it turns on accidentally? Usually these devices are used to turn lights on and off etc. I have seen situations where they can be tricked into switching on due to power disturbances. I have also seen a situation where the lamp was off, there was a power failure (electric utility), and upon power being restored the lights came on on their own. So if anyone tries to go this route be very cautious, or you might come back from vacation and find your laser running. Or you might find your neighbour's gadgets are turning your laser off in the middle of a job because of EMI.

There are probably industrial-quality remotes that could be used but I would not recommend a consumer version as they are designed very cheaply and don't have very good filtering.

I suggest going the safe route with a hardwired solution.

[Richard Rumancik]

I am amazed that Peck did not come on here and shout to the high heavens about using a power strip. In theory they might be OK. In practice, I have had more customers with screwy little electrical problems that were caused by using cheap power strips. I am sure there some high quality power strips available, but who buys those. There are just too many noises that show up and cause little niggling problems when a power strip is used. I even had one customer remove a UPS battery back up unit because his system was developing gremlinitist. I know it does not make sense, but anything that can cause power inconsistencies should be eliminated from the loop.

Rob, I agree that no one should be using cheap a power strips - a laser should not be operated with a power strip from the dollar store. But I disagree if you feel that one should not use a surge suppressor or battery backup unit because they can cause gremlins. Yes, they can fail, and the better ones will tell you that they have failed. But in giving up their life, it usually means that they have prevented a lot more damage to the protected equipment. I don't think the surge suppressor is a place to try to save a lot of money. This is a case where you (usually) get what you pay for. If users spend $50 for a good quality surge suppressor or a couple hundred for a battery backup it is money well spent.

A battery backup is sometimes better than a surge supressor. A UPS should not be expected to run a laser during a power failure but it will filter out a lot of disturbances. Hopefully it will provide enough standby power so the user has enough time to pause the job and wait for power to recover. Then the job can be resumed after electrical power is restored.

I don't doubt that you have seen problems from bad power strips but I don't agree with plugging straight into the wall.

[Eric Allen]

On that same vein, Peck, any problems with the square wave output of most UPS systems? I'd like to install one but I've heard certain motors and I believe some electronics take issue with that. This has been bugging me for a while, but it only really hits me when we have a storm and I feel inclined to unplug:)

[Barbara Buhse]

I have a good quality surge strip hooked up... but I guess I'll separate the blower from it. Thanks :)

Barbara

[Grant McFarland]

Another possible solution is to have the wall power outlet wired to a light switch. This is a common wiring configuration, gets around losing a remote and lets you easily place the switch right where you want it.

[Richard Rumancik]

On that same vein, Peck, any problems with the square wave output of most UPS systems? I'd like to install one but I've heard certain motors and I believe some electronics take issue with that. This has been bugging me for a while, but it only really hits me when we have a storm and I feel inclined to unplug:)

I'd like to hear Peck's response to this as well but in the meantime here is my opinion . . .

The lower cost battery backup units deliver a square wave or modified square wave when running on battery power, while the utility supplies sine wave power. When used as a backup for a PC system, the power is fed into the power supply in the PC, monitor, printer, etc. Virtually all of these uints use what is called a switching power supply (as opposed to a linear power supply which uses a heavy transformer.) In a switching supply, the incoming AC power is converted to high voltage DC, chopped, regulated, and ultimately converted to low voltage DC. These switching power supplies are pretty tolerant of what you feed into them.

My laser also has a large switching power supply for the laser tube and another small one for the mainboard. So you have pretty much the same situation as you would have with a PC system in my opinion. I expect that most laser systems are identical.

It is true that some motors cannot operate properly on square wave power, but the motors in a laser are DC motors (steppers or servos) powered by the switching power supply. The switching power supply actually feeds a motor-driver circuit, so the motor itself is a long way downstream from the square-wave AC from the backup unit.

Higher quality backup units attempt to simulate the AC waveform better. I have been using a rack-mounted battery backup unit for 5 years with no problems. This is more "industrial quality" than the consumer products but I would think that a PC-type unit would be fine. However I would try to get a unit with a fair amount of margin over the specified VA of the laser system.

[Peck Sidara]

Eric,

From what I've gathered, cheaper UPS's use a square sine wave emulating true AC that's a sine wave at 60HZ. Engineering doesn't believe this to be an issue with our equipment BUT recommends a high quality UPS that outputs a true sine wave at the correct freq.

HTH,

[Greg Busch]

I think in answer to the original question posed, this is the type of feedback that you should be sending to Epilog.

Get them to repostion the switch in future models, provide soft re-boot feature etc.., remember you may be buying a new machine in the years to come that just might have these improvements