Two Cherries 4 pc chisel set $89.95

[Dan Barr]

Hmm.....

check out this link.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-5009050&Category_Code=CLW

V/R

Dan

[scott spencer]

FYI...Holbren carries what looks to be the same chisels for ~ $81 shipped with "SMC10" discount:
74269

[David Weaver]

Scott - this is OT to this thread, but what does the discount work on w.r.t. the holbren site? I have a buddy who wants to get an 8-inch spiral head for his jointer, and 10% off might be enough for him to pull the trigger.

[Bill Brehme]

Here's a set of '6' Hirsch (same as Two Cherries) for $112.:)

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46403&cat=1,41504

[David Weaver]

I have the hirsch set. They're nice, especially for the price. Some don't like the handles, so keep that in mind (I don't mind them).

They're not as nice as LN bevel edge chisels, but they're at least ($112/$300) as nice. :D The steel in them is pretty tough for the price, but know that you'll be doing some serious flattening to get the backs flat - they are machine buffed and rounded over a little. You can flatten them, just be prepared that you're not going to get the chisel in perfect A-1 flat and hair splitting condition in 2 minutes.

I do wish I would've just spent the money and gotten the LN set. Everything about them is a little nicer, some things a lot.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the hirsch set. They're nice, especially for the price. Some don't like the handles, so keep that in mind (I don't mind them).

They're not as nice as LN bevel edge chisels, but they're at least ($112/$300) as nice. :D The steel in them is pretty tough for the price, but know that you'll be doing some serious flattening to get the backs flat - they are machine buffed and rounded over a little. You can flatten them, just be prepared that you're not going to get the chisel in perfect A-1 flat and hair splitting condition in 2 minutes.

I do wish I would've just spent the money and gotten the LN set. Everything about them is a little nicer, some things a lot.
I have both the Hirsch and the LN chisels. While the LN chisels are nice, you can do just as good of work with the Hirsch, and the edge seems to hold up on the Hirsch about as well as on the LN.

One problem I had with the LN chisels is that I find the handles to be too small - but with the socket attachment, it's very easy to make new handles. That's one really nice advantage of the LN chisels - I wish all chisels were socket chisels.

Mike

[Andrew Homan]

Dan,
I have the 2 cherries set that Joel sells. They are NOT buffed and polished as indicated above -- most 2 Cherries chisels are, but this specific set is not, which is a nice way to save a few dollars and coincidentally save some time preparing the chisels. I will say that they still do require more time to prepare, in my estimation, than the other chisel specimens that I have here in my laboratory! ;) That includes LN, Ashley Iles, and Barr chisels. Choice of chisels depends on a lot of factors, and your very personal take on what is comfortable is probably one of the most important factors. As far as I recall, Joel offers a very easy return policy, so one can order several kinds of chisels and return the ones you don't want to keep.

The 2 Cherries chisels are nice in many ways, but you'll either love or hate the feel of the handles.
Cheers,
Andy

[Dan Barr]

how do you like the Barr chisels? Ive looked at a review on the Barr and LN's and they seem to be pretty much the same. I like the idea of a hand forged tool.

v/r

dan

[Mark Stutz]

Dan,
I don't know about the Barr, but I believe the LN are CNC machined out of solid bar/round stock.

Mark

[Dave Anderson NH]

Mark is right. The LN chisels (all styles) are CNC machined out of round A2 bar stock in machining centers. The bars are fed through the center of a chuck in a method similar to that used by screw machines and CNC metal lathes. It's a neat operation to watch through the windows on the machine.:D

[harry strasil]

Hand forged can be a decieving phrase. True hand forged is when a smith forges a piece from bar stock using only forge, anvil and hammer.

The modern meaning of hand forged means that someone standing in front of a big stamping press, held a piece in a pair of tongs and manipulated the piece thru several different stages of a hot forming die to end up with the raw product, then its tossed on a conveyor system and the next person and machine down the line does the next operation and such.

If chisels were truly hand forged as in the old days you wouldn't buy them because they would probably cost as much for each or more than you can purchase a set for.

I have hand forged some of my specialty chisels and it is a time consuming process.

[David Weaver]

Harry - is the quality result the same either way? I get that if you do the same thing by hand to the same steel as a machine does, that the result is the same, but in practice does it turn out that way?

How were the turn of the century chisels forged?

[Dan Barr]

Harry,

I'm curious now. Is there an advantage to hand forged? do we lose something with machine processes?

v/r

dan

[Joel Moskowitz]

Hand forged can be a decieving phrase. True hand forged is when a smith forges a piece from bar stock using only forge, anvil and hammer.

The modern meaning of hand forged means that someone standing in front of a big stamping press, held a piece in a pair of tongs and manipulated the piece thru several different stages of a hot forming die to end up with the raw product, then its tossed on a conveyor system and the next person and machine down the line does the next operation and such.

If chisels were truly hand forged as in the old days you wouldn't buy them because they would probably cost as much for each or more than you can purchase a set for.

I have hand forged some of my specialty chisels and it is a time consuming process.

Harry,
I would have to disagree. Forging on an anvil with a hammer was done and is still done for certain operations but commercial forges have been using trip hammers for drawing out material and production operations in the UK and the UK for at least 600 years - maybe longer. The single biggest factors in Sheffield becoming the tool center it was the availability of natural grindstone material and even more important - water rights for mills.

In the US in the latter part of the 19th century the big tool makers drop forged their famous socket chisels in giant presses. No real hand work at all in those tools.

Today Ashley Iles (and I would guess other small makers) draws out the metal for their tools in the old fashioned way, drawing out the steel orients the grain in the steel and gives a better edge. You can't really make a top end chisel out of O1 or W1 without this forging. Then for carving tools the gouges are formed in swage blocks. (A2 is a different matter entirely)

For regular bevel edged chisels after the tang and bolster are formed, and the blade is drawn out the tool is hardened, and then the side bevels and bevel are ground in.

Ashley Iles has a series of videos on their website showing some of the processes.
http://turningtools.co.uk/ashleyiles/videos/ilesvideos.html

[harry strasil]

there are advantages and disadvantages to both hand forged and production line methods.

With hand forged everything depends on the skill of the person making the tool, hardening and temper are the most important of these skills.

With the production line process there may be more consistancy in the product turned out.

The old hand forged ones usually had a soft wrought iron body(no carbon content) with a laid on (forge welded) face of blister steel. this means that the body is exceptionally strong and the hard face can be harder than a tool made completely of high carbon steel.

If you look closely you can see the difference in the steels in the pictures below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/smithing/laidon2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/smithing/laidon1.jpg

I have found these old chisels hold an edge longer than modern chisels

[Joel Moskowitz]

Blister steel hasn't been used in any but the cheapest chisels for 200 or so years. The lamination you see is of cast steel, also known as crucible steel. You also get single and double shear steels in some tools in the early 19th century - which is blister steel that has been refined further.
Laminated chisels fell out of favor in the post Civil war period as case steel became cheap enough to use without lamination. What you do get in a laminated tool is an edge of steel that was made specifically for edge tools (there's cast steel and there's cast steel - dozens of specific types) but there are also spectaculary good tools made of solid steel. I would not disagree that the laminated tools can be extremely good. That being said I have great tools and crappy tools from every period and every technology.

note: The chisel in your picture if made by any named maker is the US or UK was not made by hammer and anvil it was made using power hammers (probably steam powered if a US post Civil war chisel).

[Dan Barr]

I can see the two layers. I wish i had a set like that. It would be nice to try em' out and see the actual differences in the length of time that they will hold an edge.

what exactly is blister steel?

v/r

dan

[harry strasil]

blister steel was wrought iron that was heated in a sealed container with carbon and the resulting blisters on the iron gave it its name, the blister steel was worked under a power hammer of some sort to work the carbon into it. the blister steel was folded over one or more times and forge welded back together under a power hammer to further integrate the carbon into the material and was thus refined into shear steel as Joel stated. For some of my hand made axes and edge tools I have forge welded car spring steel (5160) or round springs flattened out (1095) on for cutting edges. I have also forged some edge tools from bearing races (52100). some smiths forge edge tools, knives and chisels from old files, modern files are 1095 and old files were 10105.

As Joel stated there are good and bad tools from any time period.

In an oriental Mom and Pop smith shop, this is what works for a power hammer. LOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/other/striker.gif

[Joel Moskowitz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementation_process

[harry strasil]

This is a Trip Hammer of old, the wooden arm is called a Helve.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/smithing/realtriphammer.jpg

Of the 3 power hammers I own this is my favorite, its a Depew Helve Hammer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/Depewhlve5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/Depewhlve6.jpg

[Andrew Homan]

how do you like the Barr chisels? Ive looked at a review on the Barr and LN's and they seem to be pretty much the same. I like the idea of a hand forged tool.


Hi Dan,
By "pretty much the same," I assume you mean pretty much the same positive review, because as far as construction goes, besides both being socket chisels, they are quite different -- for starters, the LNs are A2 and the Barr chisels are some sort of high carbon forged steel. I just have two Barr chisels -- one is a bevel-edge chisel, the other is a 2" "bench chisel" for heavy work, to test it out for a few months and see whether I'd like to get more of them. So far, I can say that it is easier for me to get a sharper edge on the Barr chisels, and they are very tough. The decision, for me, comes down to comfort of use and how well I can sharpen them, since they are all excellent chisels. The LNs have a really different feel that the Barrs. I realize that one could easily make custom handles for either, but I'd rather use my limited shop time on other projects. What I might end up with is a mix of both, as well as some AI chisels.

Recently I noticed on Ray Iles website that he is now offering bevel-edged chisels (with English pattern handles), so I'd be interested to hear whether anyone has had any experience with them -- perhaps Joel? (No, I don't mean the mortise chisels.)
-Andy

[Joel Moskowitz]

Ray had a run of those chisels quite a while back but for the past year he bascially can't get the handles in boxwood so every time I ask if I can import then he says no. I don't think he actually has any available now but certainly give him a call and get them direct if you can.

[Mike Henderson]

I can see the two layers. I wish i had a set like that. It would be nice to try em' out and see the actual differences in the length of time that they will hold an edge.

what exactly is blister steel?

v/r

dan
If you want to try out an old laminated chisel, your best bet is to buy one of the pre 1900 English style mortise chisels (also known as a "pigsticker"). Not all of them are laminated but many (most???) are. Joel knows these tools very well. Also, many of the plane irons from the 1800's were laminated.

In general, you'll only see lamination on large tools - tools with lots of metal. When our ancestors were making a large tool, they only used the "good steel" for the working part and used less expensive iron or steel for the rest. But when making a small tool, it's less expensive (because of the labor cost) to make the tool completely out of "good steel" than to bear the labor cost to make a laminated tool.

I'll also agree with Harry and Joel - some old tools are great and some are poor. Many people believe that everything old is wonderful and well made but that's just not true. My own belief is that much of the poorly made tools just didn't survive - they were recycled back to make new tools. Many of the old tools we see are fairly good, just by survival of the fittest.

Mike

[Clint Jones]

Harry, The chisels you show in the picture look like some No1EX GI Mix chisels I have. I dont know how they are made but I know they hold an edge as good as any of the top of the line chisels you can buy.

[Doug Pettit]

The Hirsch chisels listed at Lee Valley, http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46403&cat=1,41504
caught my attention because of the price, and also because of the great reviews that I have found posted on the web. However, looking at what I thought was the same chisel on the review on the Taunton web page, https://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideProduct.aspx?id=5851 I have come to the conclusion that I am looking at two different chisel....."Firmer" vs. "Bench". Is there truely a difference here, or am I missing something? Are these the same chisels, with one company calling them "Firmer" and the other calling them "Bench"? Just can't tell from the picture.

Thanks,
Doug

[Anchor Sarslow]

Not sure if anyone has noticed but Doug pinted out that the Hirsch chisels are Firmers and the 2 Cherries are BE bench Chisels. That is a pretty big difference for those that may be looking to buy but are not informed as to the differences.

Not too many of us have a use for the Firmers unless you are doing some boat building or some timber framing.

I would suggest the 2 Cherries set from woodowrkers, or the Ashle Iles from them for BE Bench chisels mself. I just picked up the Ashley Iles American Style Beveled Edge Bench Chisels. I am happy with them.

[Phillip Pattee]

I found a set of 4 Ashley Iles American pattern chisels at The Craftsman Gallery for $75.00, so for those of you considering these check out this link. http://www.thecraftsmangallery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=W/PROD/36-100