#4 Rehab: Should I have this gap?

[Danny Thompson]

In the middle of my first plane rehab I ran into something unexpected. The chipbreaker will not sit flush with the iron (see pix below).

The culprit seems to be the junction between the "yoke" (the wishbone part of the depth adjuster) and the chipbreaker. It appears the tip of the yoke is narrow enough to fit through the rectangular hole in the chipbreaker, but only part way. A very short way down the yoke, it widens to a point the chipbreaker won't move past.

Is this normal? What am I doing wrong?

Any help, even if it's a "You idiot!" would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Danny

[Mario Soldevilla]

Do you have another you could compare it to? Other wise I would just file the opening on the chipbreaker until it fit.

[David Weaver]

I would do the same - file the hole on the chipbreaker until it fits flush.

[Ken Werner]

Danny, pardon me if I am missing something here. I don't see the bolt holding the chipbreaker to the iron. Do you have one? Could that be the problem?

Ken

[Jason Beam]

I thought the same thing Ken did - it doesn't look like the screw's holding the chipbreaker and blade together is there. Maybe I'm missing something, too?

The middle hole in the chipbreaker should be threaded for a screw that pinches the two together. Then your cap iron further clenches down on things to keep it all on the frog.

[andy brown]

Ken has it ! there should be a short bolt fitting through from the back; its' head is bigger than the slot in the plane blade and so tightens them together. You should see the middle hole is threaded- from your pic 2.

Andy.

[Ken Werner]

I thought the same thing Ken did .

Jason my friend, you are headed for trouble.....

Ken

[Danny Thompson]

There is a bolt, but when I attach it, the chipbreaker doesn't snug down to the frog and iron. Instead, the iron snugs up to the chipbreaker, shifting the gap to between the iron and the frog. The bolt does nothing to resolve my yoke/slot problem.

[Ken Werner]

I'd like you to attach the bolt and post a side view image of the iron / chip breaker unit bolted together. Remember that you might have to hone the end of the chip breaker to be perfectly flat on the iron. Position the end of the chip breaker between 1/16 and 1/32 from the end of the iron.

[Bill Houghton]

There's a lateral adjustment lever on Bailey type bench planes - (what you seem to have there). The "wheel" or wide part of the lever fits down into the slot of the iron. If you don't wiggle the iron around a bit as you set it down, it can get on top of that part of the lever, and won't settle down. Have you checked to see that this is not the problem?

I've never seen an adjusting yoke that's too fat for the chipbreaker slot, but I also haven't seen every plane in the world. I concur with others that, if this is the problem, you should file either the slot in the chipbreaker or the yoke until it fits.

If you fit the breaker to the plane all by its lonesome, does it set right down on the lateral adjust lever and the frog? Seems like you should be able to confirm or refute the issue with the breaker by itself before proceeding.

[Jason Beam]

You know ... when i look closely at this pic:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=74194&d=1193504642

That thing looks like it's stickin' up awefully high.

And then when I look at this pic:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=74193&d=1193504606

That sure looks like a lotta iron stickin' out past the end of the frog.

Could it be at all possible that the yoke is adjusted too far? How much further back can you make it? It seems to me that in the present arrangement, your blade would be sticking through the plane like 3/8" or more ... (if the mouth accomodated such a thickness).

I think i'd loosen that brass nut as far as possible - just to see if that's got something to do with it.

[andy brown]

Hi,
My apologies for a crossing post earlier in the thread...now
at the risk of being thought a complete idiot....
...if the iron is being pulled up to the chipbreaker,then the iron has become weakened,or is perhaps 'fatigued'. In the photo it looks 30% -50% thicker than the chipbreaker, so it shouldn't really bend so easily.
Now comes the idiot part.
I've no idea if this thought has any merit, but an infill washer or little plate of some sort between the chipbreaker and blade might allow the blade to lie flush on the frog and give you the correct planing angle as well.

Andy.

[Danny Thompson]

Thanks for all your help so far, but the mystery remains.

Here's the shot with the chipbreaker attached to the iron. See how the gap has shifted from above the iron to below it?

The lateral adjustment ring (or whatever you call it) is perfectly lined up with the slot in the iron, but the yoke's tight connection with the chipbreaker prevents the iron from laying flat against the frog. See the gap between the ring and the iron in the first pic below?

You can also see in the second pic below that I tried moving the depth adjuster all the way back . . . no luck. It still protrudes a significant amount. I see no way to adjust the amount of protrusion.

Any vintage #4 owners out there, does the tip of your yoke have a similar thinning neer the tip. I am wondering if I have a bit of a Franken-plane, where the previous owner threw an inappropriate chipbreaker onto the plane before posting it on the bay.

[Steve Clardy]

None of my #4's have a yoke that extends that far up into the chip breaker.:confused:
I'd say it has the wrong frog or yoke on it.

Give me some clues here as to what type it is.
Details...

[nic obie]

I agree with Steve.

Somebody probably replaced the fork. It isn't very hard to knock out the pin then file it down until everything fits. In a way this is good because when you are done you will have a plane with no back lash in the adjuster.

[andy brown]

Hi,
that doesn't look the same as mine certainly- and yet in your 1st photo above (of the 4) the blade is sitting as it should against the frog, even though the chipbreaker is raised off of it somehow. When you have the chipbreaker and blade screwed together perhaps the head of the bolt is too large to 'sit' in the frog properly. I can make the blade sit up like that off the frog when the lateral adjuster stops it sitting right, but a bit of wriggling will get it to sit as it should against the frog.
Can you check the bolt head sits in the frog?
I never thought I would ever write a sentence like the last one!

Andy.

[Jim Koepke]

I agree with Steve.

Somebody probably replaced the fork. It isn't very hard to knock out the pin then file it down until everything fits. In a way this is good because when you are done you will have a plane with no back lash in the adjuster.

I think this is the case. The pins are slightly tappered if my memory is working. It will tap out from one side real easy. From the other side you would think it is welded in.

[Danny Thompson]

I believe it is a type 11.

Overal length of the plane is 7 3/8".

On the bed in front of the knob is stamped:
BAILEY

Behind the knob:
NO 4

Between the frog and the tote:
PAT'D
MAR-25-02
AUG-19-02
APR-19-10

The blade has a triangle-/V-shaped engraving (see pic above):
STANLEY
NEW BRITAIN
CONN
USA


The lateral adjustment lever reads:
STANLEY

The brass depth adjustment knob is 1" in diameter.

I think that makes it an 11.

Regarding the bolt-head, there appears to be plenty of room for it. The chipbreaker/iron assembly seems to be pivoting on the yoke, with the only other pivot points being at the tip of the frog near the business end of the iron.

[Bill Houghton]

I am wondering if I have a bit of a Franken-plane...

Sure what it looks like to me. And, with that, there's nothing wrong with modifying it. Time for a file, I think. If you don't have a file the right size, look at your local tool suppliers for either a set of needle files (probably awfully small for the purpose), a warding file, or an auger bit file. That last one will serve a dual purpose - you can use it for sharpening auger bits afterward. Though it's hard to have too many files unless you run out of storage space - they're always handy.

[James Davis]

It looks as though someone has replaced the adjusting yoke in your frog. I have never seen one that long before. Do you have another one that you can take a look at? I wonder if the lever cap can even seat with this long of a yoke in there. even if the chip bereaker is filed open enough to accept the yoke.

James Davis

[Danny Thompson]

Funny, the lever cap was in place when I bought it, but I certainly can't get it back on now (because the chipbreaker won't go down). This is my first bench plane, so I didn't really know what to look for before I disassembeled it. I don't recall the gap or any fit problems before I began the clean-up.

I don't have any another bench plane to use for camparison, much less a #4 type 11. I wonder, does anyone else on the forum have a type 11 we could use for comparison?

I would like to determine, for sure, whether a) the yoke or b) the chipbreaker or c) my head needs adjustment. Maybe the answer is to just order a Hock or LN and file the yoke to fit it, but it would be good to know for sure.

[peter newton]

If this is a bailey type plane its looks to me as though it is, the Yoke is not origonal, it protrudes much higher than normal. There shound be a curve (rather like a gear tooth (involute form)) on the end that engages with the chip breaker. On yours it is to long and there is little if any curve, therefore it will have resticted movement and also not allow the iron and chip breaker to sit flat on the frog.

[Steve Clardy]

Funny, the lever cap was in place when I bought it, but I certainly can't get it back on now (because the chipbreaker won't go down). This is my first bench plane, so I didn't really know what to look for before I disassembeled it. I don't recall the gap or any fit problems before I began the clean-up.

I don't have any another bench plane to use for camparison, much less a #4 type 11. I wonder, does anyone else on the forum have a type 11 we could use for comparison?

I would like to determine, for sure, whether a) the yoke or b) the chipbreaker or c) my head needs adjustment. Maybe the answer is to just order a Hock or LN and file the yoke to fit it, but it would be good to know for sure.

I'll dig through my stash today for a type 11 and look it over.

[Jerry White]

Danny,

I pulled a #4, Type 11. I measure the projection of the tooth of the yoke from the tip to the surface of the frog as about 0.18" with the plane adjusted for a fine cut. Yours appears to be much more than that.

Hope this helps.

Jerry

[James Davis]

If you will send me your address, I will send you a yoke from a #5 type 11 that I am parting out. I think that will solve your problem.

James Davis

[Bill Brehme]

Yep, I'm thinking FRANKENPLANE...:(

[Danny Thompson]

Big thanks, James. PM sent. I hope to return the favor, someday. And thanks to everyone for helping ID the problem.

[Danny Thompson]

Fellow Creeker James Davis had mercy on me and sent a known valid #4 type 11 yoke and lookie here, surprise, surprise, you guys were right. Take a look at the yoke lengths in the attached photos.

In the first picture, the top yoke is the one that was on my plane, the bottom is the one Jim sent.

The second pic shows the perfect fit between the "right" yoke and my chipbreaker.

The third . . . no gap.

I now have a fit between my chipbreaker and yoke!

James, I can't thank you enough.

The next two pics show my progress so far. After sanding the base on emery paper (50 grit, 80 wasn't getting me anywhere) I still have two low spots. You can see them by looking for the marks that go in the direction of the plane. In the second to last photo, you can see a low spot just in front of the mouth near the top edge. In the last photo you can see a long line along the bottom edge. I assume that getting the spot in front of the mouth is more important than the long edge near the rear. See any other problems?

[Danny Thompson]

Also, I'm wondering, is the longer yoke needed for the thicker Hock and Lie-Nielsen replacement irons and chipbreakers?

[Martin Cash]

I've been following this thread with interest.
Here's a thought: It looks to me as though the original yoke has been extended with silver solder or the like.
Now this is commonly done when an extra thick replacement blade is added to the plane, so that the yoke engages the chipbreaker.
My guess is that the previous owner did exactly this, and when he passed on the plane he decided to keep the replacement blade and sell it with the original. Hence the problem.
Don't throw out the yoke, you will probably need it again if you ever obtain a thick replacement blade.
Good luck
MC:):):)

[Brian Hale]

Danny, I might be wrong but in the 4th pic it looks like you have a small crack forming at the corner of the mouth.

[Bill Houghton]

The crucial parts are considered the region around the mouth, the heel (back end) and toe (front end) of the sole.

[Danny Thompson]

Brian, there is a small pit at the top right corner of the mouth (the back of the mouth). In the pic, there is a streak of oil trailing off that may look like a longer crack. What should I do about the pit/potential crack?

Bill, I figure the low patch at the top, in front of the mouth, is close enough to the mouth to be a problem, right?

[Brian Hale]

There really isn't anything you can do about a crack other than keep an eye on it. Some have had luck with brazing but it'll cost much more than the plane is worth unless that's in your skill set.

Don't worry about it unless it grows.

Brian :)