Open end Drum sander Purchase

[Gary Muto]

I decided a few months ago to purchase an open end drum sander. During research I determined that dust collection was a must, so that came first. I am planning to purchase a sander around the end of this year and thought I'd get some opinions along with my research. To put some framework around this question, I was originally interested in the Performax/Jet 16-32" model but since the 22-44" is only about $150 more it seems to make more sense. After all $800 for a sander doesn't make sense unless, like me, you're trying to make the most of your hobby time and minimize the least desirable tasks. Then I came across the Delta 18-36". A lot of bad press and the idea that the support surface moves instead of the drum, makes it a less desirable option. Later I found Steel City and Orion models that move the support surface as well. Today I found a Dayton sander at Grainger (Model 1FYV7 atalog page 2632) which also moves the support surface rather than the drum. It seems that Jet stands alone in thier design apporach.

I would like to hear from users/owners of:

Jet/Performax
Delta
steel city
Orion
Grizzley?
DaytonWhat do you like and hate about your sanders? Do you see any inherent advantages/problems to moving table vs. moving drum for thickness adjustment? Any other design flaws? I'll start:

The Jet/Perfromax has been around for a while with good reviews.
The construction is both sturdy and simple so it should be durable.
The moving drum means that infeed/outfeed support would be a simpler one time set up.
22-44" capacity is the largest in the $800-$1000 price range.
Jet has improved the feed rate control and feed belt trackingThe 22-44" with the open standseems to me to be the optimal choice. :cool: However, I have not used any of these sanders.:confused:

I'm ready for the onslaught...

[Steve Mellott]

Gary:

I don't want to hijack your thread, but could we also include any feedback on the Sand-Flea? I've been lead to believe that this might be a viable alternative to a drum sander. Thanks.

[Curt Harms]

Hi Steve

I have a Performax 16-32. I looked at the Sand Flea at a woodworking show. I wouldn't regard the Sand Flea as equivalent. The Sand Flea has its place, but it will not provide uniform thickness like a drum sander will, just sand a surface. In terms of stock thicknessing, I might think of the sand flea as a jointer, a drum sander as a planer. No, a drum sander will not remove stock as quick as a planer but a drum sander will provide repeatable and uniform thickness, a sand flea-type sander will not. Another use of the drum sander is working with gnarly stock with knots and swirly grain. A sander will not create divots like a planer will.

Here's an interesting alternative to the sand flea:
http://nicks.ca/Toolkits.html#sander1

HTH

Curt

Gary:

I don't want to hijack your thread, but could we also include any feedback on the Sand-Flea? I've been lead to believe that this might be a viable alternative to a drum sander. Thanks.

[Doug Shepard]

... A sander will not create divots like a planer will.
...


Au contrair mon ami. My 16-32 will happily sand a divot if I try to take too much in one pass and the feed stalls. Other than that, I'm in agreement. I think the marketing term of "abrasive planing" that they toss about is a bit of a falacy. Yeah, you can do it, but after one time you'll never want to again. Planing to within about 1/16" of the final thickness then switching to the drum sander works pretty well.

Gary
98% of the time I've used mine has been on short or medium length stuff. I've got the added infeed/outfeed tables and haven't needed extra roller stand supports most of the time, but would think that the moving table would drive me bonkers in those cases where I need them. Dust collection has been pretty fair even just hooked up to a shop-vac, though dust that falls on the feed belt will get dumped off onto the floor when it goes over the roller. Haven't gotten the machine hookup for mine done yet since I put my cyclone in but expect it to be better. Unless you can swing a wide belt sander, I think the 16-32 is probably the best option out there.

[Brad Townsend]

I really like my Performax 16/32. It's a bit finicky to get set up the first time, but once "dialed in" is pretty painless. The hard part is getting the drum parallel to the feed belt, and by "parallel", I actually mean with the open end ever so slightly higher than the closed end. This is to avoid sanding a ridge into a panel with the outer edge of the drum when doing something wider than 16". For the cost difference, you are probably wise to go with the 22/44. I just happened to run into a local killer deal on the 16/32 and got it for around $600 new including sales tax. (Stealth gloat.:D) It has saved me many hours of one part of woodworking I really don't enjoy very much.

[Gary Muto]

Brad,
Nice move!:cool: For $600 I would snatch up a 16-32" too, but for a difference of just $150-$200 I figure that it is well worth it. Any suggestions on where to buy?
Doug,
Did you buy the optional infeed/outfeed tables or make your own? If you bought them, do you think it's worth it? Did you buy locally? Performance Line Tools seem to be competitive. I could have gotten a 22-44" for $850 in August, but I wasn't ready to pull the trigger.

So, only Jet/Performax users out there?

[Brad Hammond]

gary, i have the delta and i confess i'm not happy with the table at all, but i tolerate it because i rarely move it more than an inch. if i had it to do over again i'd probably buy the jet. it was a question of money when i got my sander and amazon was giving a free router or sander or 50 bucks off or somethin i cant remember.
hope this helps!
brad

[Gary Muto]

Thanks Brad. I appreciate the candid response.

[Dan Drager]

I have the Performax 22-44 and just love it.

Pros: It was dead on flat on set up and I have not had to adjust it at all in a the first year of use. With a rough grit it can flatten slabs (slowly) or put the 220 on the drum and get it one sanding from finishing. HUGE time saver.

Cons: Getting the paper tight takes practice. Make sure your infeed and outfeed tables are perfect or you can get dips / divots.

I Highly recommend this sander. Especially if you do slabs or anything larger than 22"

[Doug Shepard]

Gary
I actually got mine at Rockler in Royal Oak many years ago. They were having a special with the infeed/outfeed tables included plus 4 boxes of sandpaper. The only thing extra I had to buy was the caster set (VERY good quality casters BTW). Unless you make your own extensions I think you'd better plan on the cost of the tables. I personally wouldn't want to run the unit without them. I haven't looked at Performance Line's prices but they're usually some of the best local prices.

[Brad Townsend]

Brad,
Nice move!:cool: For $600 I would snatch up a 16-32" too, but for a difference of just $150-$200 I figure that it is well worth it. Any suggestions on where to buy?

No suggestions on where to buy. It's extremely rare to see much of a discount on these. I looked everywhere and they were all pretty much the same price. I finally got lucky when a local Farm & Fleet was closing them out and knocked $200 off the price. There was also a $100 factory rebate on at the time.

[Gary Muto]

I really appreciate everone's responses. They seem to reflect the research I've found, here and elsewhere.
Doug,
I've heard the casters are great and mixed responses on the in/out-feed supports. They're not as expensive as they used to be, so as a result probably worth the bolt on and go convenience to get started.

I think the 22" capacity will be more of an asset to me from the 16-22" aspect of a single pass sanding as opposed to the 32-44" increase in capacity. Guiding a 40" piece like a table or door does not appear to be easy.

[nate hatfield]

i purchased a Ryobi 16-32 on craigslist $150 it works great but light passes are a must. Anyone have any ideas where I might find infeed/outfeed tables for this sander? Ryobi no longer makes it but it is identicle to Steel City's in every way.

nate

[Doug Shepard]

Unless you use something (their extensions, homemade ones, or roller stands) I think sanding snipe on the board ends is a real probability with things much longer than a couple feet. There's not that much room on the conveyor table before you're into the drum. If you've got unsupported weight tipping the ends up, you'll end up sanding more off there.

[Don Selke]

Gary:

I have had the 16-32 Preformax for four years now and love it. It is a great addition to the shop. Remember, it is not a planer. You need to take very light passes when sanding and it is not a finish sander. You can not run stock thru the drum sander and take it to the finishing room or table. I never go above 150 grit. Most of the time I have 100 grit on the drum and final sand with a random orbit sander. The drum sander will leave lines and grooves. It is the nature of a drum sander. I recommend that you purchase the in-feed and out-feed tables when you purchase your sander, they are a must.
I am in the process of replacing my conveyor belt which is starting to seporate at the seam. Living in the desert south west, sanding belts tend to seporate at the seams with age due to the heat. When and if you get the preformax, you will need to keep an eye on the belt (conveyor belt) and adjust it periodically to keep it centered on the rollers.
Would I buy it again, Yes in a minute.

[Gary Muto]

Thanks Don
Your response was very informative. Everyone has been helpful and I appreciate it. I will definitely plan on the infeed/outfeed tables and feel comfortable about the purchase. I don't mind a little finish sanding and I'm looking forward to reducing the sanding task time.

[Paul Johnstone]

I had the Delta open end sander for a long time. Only recently sold it to get something bigger.
I would highly recommend it. I don't see the problem with the table moving up and down. Delta sells infeed/oufeed tables. Sure, it's kind of expensive (around $80, IIRC) for basically four metal brackets, but they work well.
If you guys are having snipe on your drum sander, remember to slightly lift the board on the outfeed side. This is true for planers too.
The snipe happens when board leaves the infeed roller. Now there's a huge lever arm which lifts the board into the spinning sandpaper.
If you slightly lift the board as it comes out, you won't get snipe.

[Gary Muto]

Paul,
Am I correct in understanding that if infeed/outfeed tables are used on the Delta that additional support is not needed? How long and wide have you sanded without additional suport? Is the height of the additional support not critical as long as it's a little high?

Doug,
Do you use only the infeed/outfeed tables or do you use additional support?

I thought that anything over the 16 or 18 or 22 inches would need support (roller stands?) as well as anything over about 4 feet long. This is why I was surprised to see sanders where the table moved instead of the drum.

[Gerry L]

Gary's question is very pertinent to me also, I'm strongly considering the Grizzly G0458. Please keep the comments coming, especially about individual makes/models.

[Doug Shepard]

...
Doug,
Do you use only the infeed/outfeed tables or do you use additional support?
...


The I/O tables alone are usually enough for most thing's. As long as you can hold it flat to the infeed table and conveyor table you're good. It's when you're doing longer, heavier stuff that you'd want a roller stand or something as well. Even on short stuff I think there's only about 8" or so on the conveyor table before you reach the drum housing. Not a lot of room to hold something down flat while it's also moving toward a spinning drum that will happily manicure your nails for you. That's why I think the I/O tables (or your own) are pretty necessary.
The Delta's I/O tables undoubtedly move along with the moving conveyor table, so for most stuff you'd probably be golden. It's only when you get into the longer, heavier stuff that you'd want an additional roller stand and then have the annoyance of changing the roller stand height to keep up. I dont think you'd have to change it with every pass, but if you're actually trying the abrasive planing thing, you'd probably want to re-adjust every so often.

[frank shic]

doug, would the I/O support tables be enough for sanding a typical 30" high raised panel door?

[Paul Johnstone]

Paul,
Am I correct in understanding that if infeed/outfeed tables are used on the Delta that additional support is not needed? How long and wide have you sanded without additional suport? Is the height of the additional support not critical as long as it's a little high?
.

I've sanded 3/4 inch boards that were 9 feet long without infeed/outfeed tables. The tables make it easier though.

Start off by holding in on the infeed side. Here, you want to make sure the part of the board that has not entered the sander does not tip down.
Once the rollers have the board, move to the outfeed side and slightly lift to prevent the outfeed side from tipping downward.

I went about 8 years without infeed/outfeed tables. The thing is, you do have to pay attention. A couple times my mind wandered and I did get snipe.
The infeed outfeed tables help a lot, but on very long boards, you still need to use your hands to support.
Of course, after my cheap self finally bought the infeed/oufeed tables, I upgraded about 8 months later to something bigger.

[Doug Shepard]

doug, would the I/O support tables be enough for sanding a typical 30" high raised panel door?

Sure, unless it's a 3" thick, 16" wide raised panel made of Ipe.:D You could go even longer. It all depends on how easy it is to hold it flat to the table. If it's long or heavy, an extra roller is a big help. Like Paul mentioned, you can do without but stuff can happen. I've also found it helps to keep some forward feed pressure as well just in case the feed decides to stall which can happen. If it sits there, you've now got a nice full-width scallop. You might be taking a very light pass, but didn't notice that very tiny bit of bow in the middle of something that might bog down a bit. The sandpaper feed belt can also get some waviness from humidity changes which can cause it. Not a problem if you're keeping it held flat but that means you've only really got one hand to support it underneath.

[Paul Johnstone]

doug, would the I/O support tables be enough for sanding a typical 30" high raised panel door?

Yes, it would be a breeze. It would probably support the entire door well enough that you wouldn't have to touch it.

As I said, I've done 9' without infeed/outfeed tables and gotten no snipe (as long as I paid attention to technique).

[Bill Wyko]

I've got the JET 22-44 with the closed cabinet. I've had it for about 2 years now and never had to make any adjustments or change the drive belt. It's easy to replace the paper on the drum too. Pretty much maintainance free. 1 to 10 i'd give it a 9.5. (no one gets a 10)

[Don L Johnson]

Is there a difference between the Jet 22-44 and the Performax 22-44?

[Gary Muto]

Jet (WMH Tool group) bought Performax but seems to be getting away from the Performax name. They may have even sold the name. But that's another thread. The 10-20", 16-32" and 22-44" Plus and pro models are the same whether Jet or Performax.

All the discussion on I/O tables has been geat for me. I expected to have to build my own to get satisfactory performance. Thanks to the consistent input from you guys, I will just plan on buying the tables and using additional support (roller stands) for the rare times I have a large project.

[Don L Johnson]

Gary,

If you want the belt drive, I found a fairly decent price for the Pro Deluxe Drum Sander at this site: http://www.southern-tool.com/store/Perfomax22-44ProDeluxeDrumSander.html

[Matt Meiser]

I had the Delta. It was a nice machine for the most part, but it would never fail that I would take too heavy a cut or too fast of a speed, pop the overload on the conveyor motor, and gouge something every single project. I also had some issues with snipe and it took me a week of evenings to get the table raise/lower mechanism adjusted so that it tracked up and down smoothly. When I downsized my shop, it was one of the things I sold because it was definitely something I could live without. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a worthless machine--sanding panels with it left me ready for quick finish sanding with the ROS and if you wanted to slice your own veneers or work with a lot of highly figured wood it would be close to a necessity.

Another thing I found with will be true of any drum sander is that excellent dust collection is critical. These things pump out a lot of fine dust which clogged up the filters in my cyclone pretty quick. I switched to outside venting to solve it but that's probably not an option since you live in an urban area (I assume based on your location.) Probably something to think about especially if you have a basement shop.

[Gary Muto]

Thanks Don,
I bookmarked the page. That is a really good price, more than I'm budgeting, but I'm going to think about it. The sander looks sturdier, with all that truss work. It looks like it has the same motor though. I would think direct drive is better than belt drive. Is there an advantage? other than packaging...

Matt,
Thanks for your input. I do live in an urban neighborhood. I've got a Jet dust collector with a canister and I was thinking about how to do some exterior venting as long as I did some coarse filtering prior to exhausting. I've read that even the canister filters aren't good enough to ensure your health. I do have an air filter too. They seem to work great, but ....
I'm surprised that a cyclone had trouble with the sander.

I don't know where Ida, MI is located. Where abouts are you located?

[Matt Meiser]

Gary, Ida is about southwest of Monroe and southeast of Dundee--pretty much to Toledo.

My cyclone is an older design that doesn't separate the super-fine dust as well as some of the newer designs.