Frame & Panel + Wood Movement

[Raymond Stanley]

Hi all,

I'm making a frame and panel top for a box I'm building (see http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=65979 - more pics will come soon). I'm just using handplanes for this - no router tables. I am doing a raised field, and then a bevel to the edge with no tongue.

What I realized in the process is that if I don't want the panel to rattle around in the grooves, then I have to make the bevel fit snug into the groove. If you leave any room for growth between the bevel and the groove, it will rattle.
I've left 1/16" between the edge of the bevel and the full depth of the groove, meant for wood growth. But I worry about cross-grain movement of the top jamming the bevel into the top of the groove and thus creating a crack in the sides.
I want this thing to last, but I don't want it to rattle...but if I just have to deal with a rattle then I can accept that.

Any ideas on how to deal with this situation?

Thanks so much!
Ray

[Tim Sproul]

Any ideas on how to deal with this situation?


Put a couple brass pins or cut nails about 2 inches apart at the center of the panel (top and bottom rails) to pin the panel in place. A single nail doesn't work well to completely stop rattling as it just acts as a pivot point.

[John D Watson]

Four words, "Lee Valley Space Balls". They work great and come in two sizes.

[Raymond Stanley]

Thanks for the quick and informative replies, guys!

Tim - do you mean a pin going down through the rail, into the face (bevel) of the panel? Or a pin going into the side of the bevel, through the edge of the rail (or in my case, side of box).

John - I'll look into these.


-Ray

[Tim Sproul]

I put the pin through the rear of the rail, into the panel and then into the front of the rail. Obviously, choose a nail/pin short enough that it won't go through to show on the front of the frame. I like brass estucheon pins or copper nails (you need to prebore holes for these) or rosehead cut nails. All are decorative and look nice once you open the door. For a frame and panel where the backside won't ever be seen, I just drive pins or brads from a pneumatic nailer.

I've seen manufactured cabinets that jamb nails behind panels and into the groove (essentially using brads as wedges) to keep panels from rattling.

[Michael Hammers]

John is spot on..........Space Balls....
And not the movie...we used these extensively in production cabinet shop, and they are great.
It will cure this issue.

[Greg Muller]

Styrofoam packing peanuts. Trim them into little wedges with a razor blade to fit snug, but not jammed in too tight. One bag of them will last forever.;)
You can buy them at the post office, walmart, etc... Every Christmas when the kids get gifts mailed in from out of town, I save one small bag of them...freebie!!

[Raymond Stanley]

Thanks for the continued info...

As far as I can tell, Lee Valley has stopped selling "Space Balls"...another forum said it was because they left stains.

I wonder how did the folks who made furniture that lasted centuries do it... Perhaps Tim's way with a nail or estucheon pins?

[andy brown]

Hi,
I think in the old days most panels were made with chamfered rebates and if they were fitted into doors etc they would settle to their lowest point-assuming they weren't nailed- and the chamfer would hold them on at least 3 sides, even if it got a wee bit short at the top. What would it shrink anyway? 1/4 inch max I would guess.You need to let wood season as well. A friend of mine has timber outside his workshop 10 years and more before he gets round to using it! You will see on painted doors where the panels cannot move they they are quite often split as the paint has held them rigidly. I would think another solution is called for, rather than a nail or two!

Andy.

[harry strasil]

Raymond, FWIW:

I don't know if something like this is what you are talking about or not, I don't know all the technical names, but on this sewing box and my tool boxes, I left a 1/4 inch sticking up on top so I would have room enough to put the Parquetry inside.

I left an 1/8 of an inch of play on the tool chests for expansion and put nothing in the groove on the first one. For the other two and this sewing box I got one of those real soft light brown little block pencil erasers and cut a section off one end then cut it down to 1/4 inch long pieces and put 2 spaced on 3rds in the groove so it wouldn't rattle around.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sewingbox.jpg

I found out on the first one with no anti rattle spacers, that the finish applied soaked into the seam and it doesn' rattle at all, the finish expanded the wood and or semi stuck the panel in place.

[harry strasil]

I used some more of the eraser on these panels tool!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/weddingchest.jpg

[Don C Peterson]

Styrofoam packing peanuts. Trim them into little wedges with a razor blade to fit snug, but not jammed in too tight. One bag of them will last forever.;)
You can buy them at the post office, walmart, etc... Every Christmas when the kids get gifts mailed in from out of town, I save one small bag of them...freebie!!

I would be concerned about these just flattening out or breaking down completely, no?

[Steve Wargo]

Cork. Cheap and easy to use. Doesn't stain the workpiece, and is not some crazy synthetic material. Cork is amazing stuff and this is an application that it thrives. at. Line the grooves with it. Good luck.

[Don C Peterson]

Cork. Cheap and easy to use. Doesn't stain the workpiece, and is not some crazy synthetic material. Cork is amazing stuff and this is an application that it thrives. at. Line the grooves with it. Good luck.

Now that's the kind of clear headed, simple answer that makes SMC such a great place! Thanks Steve.

[Don C Peterson]

Jr.

That's a great looking Sewing box.

[Greg Crawford]

Even if Space Balls left a stain, it seems it would be completely hidden. Does the stain spread like oil? I just got some for installation tomorrow on some door panels. Don't want to have to go back and fix it later.

[Raymond Stanley]

Greg,
I'm sorry to say that I can't find the link that I stumbled upon earlier that indicated that problem. I hope I didn't throw too much of a wrench into your plans...perhaps try searching this forum and others and maybe the problem will turn up.
Good luck-
Ray

[Mark Stutz]

Raymond,
I'm not convinced that this panel is big enough to be too concerned about that much wood movement. At 6" wide the movement will not be much and if you use QS stock it will be negligible. The panels in the door of this http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=36250&highlight=cabinetcabinet are about 6 in. There is no flat, just tapered all the way to the edge. Granted, it is QS mahogany, so very stable, but have had no problem with it.

[Greg Muller]

I would be concerned about these just flattening out or breaking down completely, no?

I've never had any of them make any noise and force me to pull them apart for repair, so I'm not positive...or does that prove they work?:confused:


Now you've gone and gotten me confused...;)

[Jeff Craven]

When I made this box: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56566

I made the panels loose with a nail centered at each end to pin it from rattling. The nail was driven into the edge of the raised panel, then cut off so about 1/4" was sticking out and that end was pressed into the inside of the box sides. So it doesn't stick through.