Workshop construction rant

[daniel lane]

Dear (insert deity), it's been a nightmare these last 4 weeks, trying to make sure I've bought everything I need to finish the basement workshop. I've cleaned it out, demo'ed the remaining non-structural stuff, and painted the walls with Drylok (photos forthcoming, everything else in other thread).

I had no idea I needed to choose 7,187,649 other things to finish this job.

I've opted for 1x4 sleepers with 23/32 OSB sheeting for the floor (will probably paint, but that's yet another issue), and I think I've got everything else figured for the partition and other walls. I'm planning on 11/32 T-111 wall sheathing and 3/8 drywall for the ceiling, but that may change if it looks like I can make a serious noise impact by doing so.

City hall says I need a permit because I'm doing new electrical, and they want me to insulate the exterior basement walls. I don't WANT to insulate those walls, it's completely unnecessary (trust me, I should know) and an extra expense. I'll probably suck it up and do it, though, rather than fight something that may not be required by code, but is "required" (with quotes) by the inspector. I hate this kind of graft - it's "official" but not required. *sigh*

I'm just going to go with 1/4 or 1/2" pink foam. 2x6 bottom plates, 2x4 framing, etc. The worst of it has been figuring the fiberglass insulation for noise reduction. I've read 246,785 web sites with info on noise reduction, and I just don't care anymore. R-19 will either work, or it won't. And if it doesn't, my wife can go shopping while I work, for all I care. It'll be cheaper in the long run, based on what I've read about MLV and double-drywall installations.

If I follow all the suggestions, the HVAC duct in the workshop will be a headknocker, what with the 6'9" basic clearance that will be reduced by 1.5" with the addition of sleepers and floor, plus the 7-9" for an insulated chase for noise reduction. Crap, I was hoping for something that would (continue to) not hit me in the head.

I bought an 8' T-whoknows light fixture last year, now I can't remember which I need to match for the other 3. Shall I sell the old one on Craig's List, or hope I pick right? I'll flip a coin. What? Installation through the joists increase noise transfer? Use chain? *$^%@ it, I don't care anymore.

The only thing that's been wonderful so far has been the DC system. Got that, got a plan to install, expect no worries. Yay! Can hardly wait. Me and George Peppard - we love it when a plan comes together.

Electrical. Did you know that if you buy 12/2 Romex from the BORG, it cost about $55 for 100' in a box, or $67 for 250' in shrink-wrapped plastic? What a bargain for those of us that need 150'. (I can't BELIEVE how much profit they must make on the boxes.)

The entire family on my side (all 5 others) will be here for Thanksgiving. I wanted to refinish the downstairs half-bath before then, doesn't look like it will happen...LOML wants the basement done before I start that, and I don't see that happening in 5 weekends. (Of course, I could always lie to her, but then she might notice the pile of lumber in her exercise area.)

Of course, all of the remaining material to finish construction should be delivered sometime soon. In the meantime, I keep hearing from LOML about how her garage will be taken up by materials and how it's starting to rain, finally, so it's not all beer and skittles. Perhaps I should build a carport on one side of the driveway... *sigh*

When did I stop *making* stuff for the house and start *working* for the house?!? :confused:

[Stan Welborn]

I feel your pain. I ran into all kinds of issues when building my garage with permits and restrictions.

I'd kill myself on the low clearance duct issue. I'm bad about walking with my head down looking at whatever I'm holding. Kablamo. Instant knot on the head and a vocabulary shift to mostly 4 letter words..

[Paul Johnstone]

That's why I never get the government involved (permits) when I'm doing anything inside my house that won't be seen.

The inspectors here are either incompetent or don't care anyway.
I had to rip out a bathroom floor and redo all the drain pipes because the county inspector passed
the builder's "plumbing" work, despite the fact that the drain pipes did not have adequate slope
to carry the poop away. Oh yeah, the inspector also "passed" the plumbing, despite the fact that they
cut the 2 x 10 down to about 1.5 inches thick in two places (to make it easier to put the tub and toilet
in).. Those got reinforced as well.
The point is, I don't see those inspectors adding any value whatsoever. When you sell the house, it's unlikely
that the buyers will ask if you had a permit for adding a workshop. If they do ask, and are worried about the electrical,
I plan to offer to remove the subpanel I added and only leave inspected wiring "live".
Anyhow, I've moved three times so far, and no one has ever asked if interior work was inspected.

[Nathan Conner]

I really didn't "discover" the joys of inspection until we moved into our new place a few years ago. Our nearest neighbor (about 1/4" mile from the house and closer to the shop then us) turns out to be the county Inspector.

Oops.

He's been terribly cool about the work we have done. I tend to consult vaguely with him about projects. For things like windows, insulation, new exterior walls, new roof on the shop, he's been pretty "I'll look the other way" but when it came to the shop, electrical work (which I had licensed pros do, but not under permit) was a stress point. He was really upset. But not enough to make me redo it. We had a long conversation about why the codes exist. His theories are for safety, insurance, predictability when you buy a home, etc. It protects everyone involved if you just get work inspected and permitted by someone who agrees on some common rules.

And, he's the kind of guy who will stop with his family at a worksite on the way to dinner and put up a stop work notice if he sees no permits. (Grrr)

But he's been a cool neighbor, and he's a great guy. We keep our remodeling projects quiet, or bring stuff home from the Borg on the weekends late. Don't want to garner TOO much attention to things we know should be permitted.

But in general, it's the hassle, for us, not the money. The time it takes to get work drawn up, approved, etc. usually turns out to be longer than it would have taken by FAR than if we'd just done the work.

Insulating the outside of the basement? I feel your pain.

[Eric Mims]

you should come take a stroll on our 100' long sidewalk the city made us build, at our own expense, when we renovated our small office building.. you won't find another sidewalk within a few miles, but that's ok, you can climb out of the drainage ditches on either side and have a relaxing cruise on our sidewalk. Oh, did I mention the church directly across the street just finished a multi million dollar expansion? Naturally, they didn't have to build a sidewalk..

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Oh, did I mention the church directly across the street just finished a multi million dollar expansion? Naturally, they didn't have to build a sidewalk..

Why would they have to build a sidewalk when there's one right across the street?


;)

[Bill Jepson]

The amazing thing to me is the variance in "code" from one place to the next. The difference in the price of permits for the same job is truly amazing as well!
I grew up in the San Jose, California and still work in this area. The price of permits in the City of San Jose is staggering. I have a home in Calavaras county where I built a horse barn for my wife. The permits including eletrical were $300. I did all the work myself, to code, including foundation, to permits, and sign offs. My wife worked with the city of San Jose for years and a person in the planning department there told her the permits for just the building (36' x 24' metal Barnmasters barn) would have been $2,500.00! For crying out loud what gives these petty beauracrats the right to levy these hidden taxes. That is what these high-priced permits are.
I better stop now as my blood pressure has gone up 20 points just thinking about it.
Bill

[David Giles]

Sounds like a good "family" project over Thanksgiving! At least one or two would probably rather help than wash dishes.

Seriously, some projects need to be done to a certain quality level no matter how long it takes. On other projects, it's more important to be done on time than for it to be "perfect". Stress comes from trying to do both. Don't put yourself in this trap. It's supposed to be fun.

[Bill Roland]

I have been involved in several projects that required sound proof rooms. The biggest thing we discovered about sound transfer is to isolate the ajoining room by building offset walls. For a ceiling I would think about isolating the ceiling joist from the floor above. If it has to be joined, use a pad to lessen the sound trandfer. Sound transfer can also be lessened by using two layers of drywall of different thickness, IE 3/8" & 1/2".

[Greg Pavlov]

That's why I never get the government involved (permits) when I'm doing anything inside my house that won't be seen.
The inspectors here are either incompetent or don't care anyway.
......
The problem, of course, might be your insurance company, if something serious happens - like a fire - and you file a claim.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Nathan, I understand your concerns regarding the permit process, and it may be different in the US than Canada.

In Canada, a licensed electrician is required by code to have their work inspected. There are no "get of jail free" cards for being a tradesman, you have to have your work inspected, period.

For larger users such as my employer, we keep a continuous inspection process log, all small work is logged, and on a routine basis we have the site inspected. This is for switches, receptacles, lighting ballasts and small circuit additions.

Larger projects such as installing a distribution panel, require a permit.

A consideration may be your insurance, I would suggest that you check with them. It would be a disaster if you had a fire, and the insurance company declined payment because it started in an area of your electrical system for which there was no record of a permit or inspection.

Although it may not feel like it at times, the inspector is your best friend, and will save you from a lot of grief in the long term.

As I always joke about the electrical code in courses I teach, the code is modified because either someone died, or something burnt down. It's a continuous improvement process, designed to save lives and property.

regards, Rod.

[David G Baker]

The amazing thing to me is the variance in "code" from one place to the next. The difference in the price of permits for the same job is truly amazing as well!
I grew up in the San Jose, California and still work in this area. The price of permits in the City of San Jose is staggering. I have a home in Calavaras county where I built a horse barn for my wife. The permits including eletrical were $300. I did all the work myself, to code, including foundation, to permits, and sign offs. My wife worked with the city of San Jose for years and a person in the planning department there told her the permits for just the building (36' x 24' metal Barnmasters barn) would have been $2,500.00! For crying out loud what gives these petty beauracrats the right to levy these hidden taxes. That is what these high-priced permits are.
I better stop now as my blood pressure has gone up 20 points just thinking about it.
Bill
Bill,
Remember Proposition 13? Every government body in California is going all out to recoup every penny lost due to Prop 13.
Hope you didn't get caught in the Mello/Rouse scam. One of the biggest rip-offs since the sale of the Brooklyn Bridge.

[Paul Johnstone]

The problem, of course, might be your insurance company, if something serious happens - like a fire - and you file a claim.

Not worried about it. I do all my electrical right.

By the way, a couple years ago, I was up in the attic, the builders left a live wire buried in the insulation. The ends of the wire were stripped too.
My guess is that they thought they had another smoke alarm to put in, but since they didn't, they just left the wire there.. The inspector didn't catch that either.

In other words, I'm much more worried about the inspected work on my house (what the builder did), than the non inspected work I do myself.

[Tom Veatch]

...In other words, I'm much more worried about the inspected work on my house (what the builder did), than the non inspected work I do myself.

I hear you.

My current house was built for me in 1986 by a reputable contractor, per codes, inspection records, certificate of occupancy, and all that stuff. After moving in, I was doing a little "non inspected" electrical work and noticed the ground wire from the main panel was bonded to a copper water pipe near the panel. That's OK, you say. It's even standard procedure since the pipe is very well grounded through it's connections to the water mains, etc.

That may well be, except we have a private well, and the copper pipe transitions to polyethelyne inside the basement before it exits the house. No direct contact between that pipe and ground at all. Perhaps, as long as the pipe was full of water, a ground path existed, but that's not something I'd want to count on.

[Art Mann]

I just wired in three new 240V circuits in the shop of a friend of mine. Why in the world would he want to get a permit or call an inspector? That would just be begging for trouble. If his house catches fire, it certainly won't be because of this particular job. Neither his insurance company nor the city will ever have anything about it.

[Tom Maple]

I also have seen the rediculous requests building inspectors have made. But since that is well covered I wanted to comment on your choice of T-111 for your walls. In our area, T-111 is very rough. Even with a top notch duct collection system you will have some airborne dust which will be tough to wipe off the T-111. I would go with something smoother.
Just a another thing for you to think about!:rolleyes:

[daniel lane]

In our area, T-111 is very rough. Even with a top notch duct collection system you will have some airborne dust which will be tough to wipe off the T-111. I would go with something smoother. Just a another thing for you to think about! :rolleyes:

Argh!! :p

I chose T-111 because:
(a) it's easier to install than drywall [I really hate taping/mudding]
(b) I felt it could hold fasteners better when mounting stuff

I've seen people use OSB, but I hate the look. I can get 3/4" cabinet plywood for about $10/sheet more than the T-111 (need 18 sheets), but that seems like massive overkill. A lot of the other plywood I can get is CDX or some other outrageously-expensive-and-ugly-for-interior-work stuff.

Maybe I'll just break down and use tin foil. Cheaper, reflects the light well, and easy to replace! :rolleyes:



daniel

[daniel lane]

By the way, folks, many thanks for letting me rant. I'm not much happier about everything, but I'm resigning myself to a plan and will likely modify at a later date. I still haven't decided on whether or not to deal with city hall (I think they've forgotten about me), but LOML seems to think it's better to deal with them than deal with a potential home buyer at a later time. Now it's just money. Then it's money, hassle, and blood pressure. (It would be my work they would question, after all.)

I'm thinking I'll get the wall framing done first, then do the floor, then put the walls over the floor so the overlap covers the expansion gap. It also means I get to stand up for a while, as I'm not looking forward to the knee pain that will come from installing 25 sleepers with shims.


daniel

[Jim Becker]

Half my shop is clad with T1-11 and I've been quite pleased with it. If you like the material, I see no reason for not using it. My only mistake was using the thinner version...I didn't know any better 8 years ago... ;)

[Al Killian]

You want a real kicker? The smal hick town I live only has one electricain to run for for inspector, so he gets to do the electrical and then come back and charge for a inspectoin.:confused:

Owning a house is like becomeing a slave, the work is never done and you never get paid for it. Just headaches and the other half increasing the list of things to get done. Hopefully you will get to a point where you can see some light at the end of the tunnel. In my case I have three list of things that need to be done The wife's list for the aparment we live in, The mother in-law for the resturaunt( she owns the building) and the building inspector, when he makes his yearly inspection and finds things that have to be fixed asap.

[daniel lane]

Half my shop is clad with T1-11 and I've been quite pleased with it. If you like the material, I see no reason for not using it. My only mistake was using the thinner version...I didn't know any better 8 years ago...

Jim,

What do you view as the problem with the thinner version? I haven't decided, but was leaning toward it, figuring I'd be hanging cabinets from studs, anyway, and saving $10/sheet.


daniel

[Jim Becker]

What do you view as the problem with the thinner version? I haven't decided, but was leaning toward it, figuring I'd be hanging cabinets from studs, anyway, and saving $10/sheet.

It's very "wavy" across the sheet and would have been better installed with horizontal strapping to keep it flatter. But that would have reduced my shop size further...