Two stage shopvac plans

[Grant Morris]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, my forum search results yielded nothing useful.

I am trying to find an explanation or plans on how to transform a typical one-stage shopvac into a two-stage version. I have heard this can greatly prolong the life of the shopvac and I would love to know how to do it.

Any feedback appreciated.

[Travis Loafman]

Well what I was considering is the G6102 from Grizzly. It mounts on top of a 5 gallon bucket and turns your shop vac into a mini 2 stage cyclone dust collector.

[Josh Youngman]

heres what i did. It works well. In my opinion a 5 gallon bucket is not sufficient. you will be emptying it too often. Id say you can go about 1/2 or 2/3 full before it starts sucking the debris into the shopvac. I went from having to empty/ get a new bag for my 16 gallon vac every few days, more if planing.


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/648/img1352mo3.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1352mo3.jpg)


http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8969/img1353wa2.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1353wa2.jpg)

[Mark Carlson]

this is what i did. very very little dust ends up in the festool filter bag. that bag should last forever.

~mark

[Grant Morris]

Josh, I see how your setup would increase the capacity but I don't see how it protects the shopvac a whole lot.

Mark, can you post a pic of the inside of your setup please?

Travis, thank you for your suggestion I found it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-International-Collection-Cyclone-Separator/dp/B0000E6TK3/ref=sr_1_1/105-1870403-7082000?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1192493831&sr=8-1): Review's weren't great, but I think it was the reviewers that had the probs, not the device...lol. I would like to see the inside of it.

Thanks a lot for the feedback so far. Keep it coming please.

[Jim C Bradley]

Hi,

This is a bit off of the thread, However, Where do you purchase the carboard drums?

Enjoy,

Jim

[glenn bradley]

Very cheap solution; #143868 from Woodcraft and a 5 gal. bucket. I used a Rockler lid (about the same) and I added a CleanStream filter to the vac. It works great. I empty the bucket many many times before I have to clean the actual vac out. About $50 for the lid and the filter. I just couldn't see adding a $160 Dust Deputy to a $80 shop vac but, that's just me. I have plenty of things I spent too much on. This just helps me equal it out in my mind ;-)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59684&d=1173325292

[Mark Carlson]

Grant,

Check out this shop vac cyclone video. This will explain what I did better than I could. I just mounted the whole contraption onto the top of my dust vac with a bungy cord so it would be mobile.

http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Videos.htm

I got my fiber drum from pen state industries.
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/cyfilcan3.html



Josh, I see how your setup would increase the capacity but I don't see how it protects the shopvac a whole lot.

Mark, can you post a pic of the inside of your setup please?

Travis, thank you for your suggestion I found it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-International-Collection-Cyclone-Separator/dp/B0000E6TK3/ref=sr_1_1/105-1870403-7082000?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1192493831&sr=8-1): Review's weren't great, but I think it was the reviewers that had the probs, not the device...lol. I would like to see the inside of it.

Thanks a lot for the feedback so far. Keep it coming please.

[Stan Welborn]

I got the ClearVue mini when it was on sale last month and put the whole thing on a rolling shelving unit I had on hand. Routed the hose onto a homemade 2x boom so I can swing it over the work and out of my way. Added an I-Socket switch to run the vac. Added a hepa filter to the vac and let'er rip. Can't believe how well this thing works with a PCmag and Dewalt biscuit jointer. The Fein hose($!), filter, and the cost of the mini were my only outlay as I already had everything else. Gotta get a sander with dust control capabilities soon though. Festool maybe.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7843/dsc02226ic1.jpg

Now to get off my hiney and get the daddy installed that's sitting in the corner...

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Grant

I have small shop so I made my two shop-vacs as "one unit" (on wheels) that also keeps the vac performance at maximum because of very short hose to the tool/machine.

With this setup, I almost never have to clean the main vac filter (or change bags) and also, a small addition that I made lately, keeps the pre-filter clean so I get maximum performance all the time.

So, here is the my R2D2.....:)

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/R2D2/0001.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/R2D2/0002.jpg


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http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/R2D2/0006.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/R2D2/0007.jpg


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http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/R2D2/0009.jpg

[Nissim Avrahami]

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/R2D2/0010.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/R2D2/0011.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/R2D2/0012.jpg


As you could see, the "filter" is getting clogged and reduces the performance.

So, I made some small modification...the Hammer...


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0001.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0002.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0004.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0005.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0006.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0007.jpg

[Nissim Avrahami]

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0008.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0009.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0010.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0011.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0012.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0013.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0014.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0015.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0016.jpg


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Vac%20Hammer/0017.jpg

[Floyd Cox]

I did the Rockler lid as well, works great, just wish I would have done it much sooner. -Floyd

[Grant Morris]

Thanks for all the input guys. I guess I expected two stage systems to be more complicated. With just a few plumbing parts and a metal trash can, Josh has created a large capacity and simple configuration that is essentially identical to the Rockler/Grizzly setups mentioned.

I think it could be improved upon it even further with the addition of some of that cloth Nissim uses, and a little work work around the lid to make it more airtight. Putting the cloth in a slip joint on the outside of the system would allow the cloth to be cut up in smaller pieces making it last much longer and be easily accessible for cleaning etc. More importanly though, the in-line filter would hopefully catch a lot of that fine dust that causes the most damage to the vacs.

See the thumbnail pic below.

[Prashun Patel]

There are 3 critical parts to getting this right:

1) You gotta create a cyclone inside the pre-separator. That forces debirs around the sides of the container so they can lose momentum and fall out of distance of the vaccuum's intake. So, make sure the inlet is directed at an angle and towards the sides of the can.

2) The cyclone has to be tall enough such that when debris falls, it's out of range of the vaccuum intake. So, if you're separator inlet is just directed downwards, it'll bounce off the bottom of the drum back up to the intake.

3) The separator lid has to be airtight to avoid pulling in air from the sides and altering the cyclone. Gasket your lid.


I bought a Clearvue (not on sale :( ). You can make em cheaper, but IMHO it's not worth the effort. Anyway, you'll have to do a diy anyway to make it mobile.

Another thing: these things build up a lot of static charge. You really should ground it somehow if you don't use a metal trash can. With all that sawdust, left ungrounded, you'll have a fire hazard.

[Grant Morris]

Thanks for that link Mark. Those ClearVue's are mighty impressive.

[Ryan Lipski]

Yeah, It definitely helps out the life of the shopvac (or at least the filter). I bought the little <cough><cough> HF <cough> 5 gallon bucket adapter for about $5 and was worth every penny.

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Grant

About the motor "health", there are two types of vacs
1. the motor is cooled by the vacuum air
2. The motor is cooled by separate cooling fan that blows external air

Whatever you choose to do, just remember a few guide lines...
The longer the hoses, the lower the efficiency of the vac...
The more turns and bends of the hoses (change of direction) the lower the vac efficiency...

That's the reason that I made my vac with only one short (3~4') hose that is connected directly to the machine (table saw) so there is no almost any direction change and loss of momentum.

About Cyclone, I think that if you'll measure the airflow, of the same vac, once, connected to cyclone and once connected as in my vac, you'll find that the airflow on my vac is higher, I thing...
The Cyclone is making Pre-filtration...my set-up is also making pre-filtration but I think, better than cyclone...at list my main filter stays clean for very long time...

Regards
niki

[glenn bradley]

Thanks for all the input guys. I guess I expected two stage systems to be more complicated. With just a few plumbing parts and a metal trash can, Josh has created a large capacity and simple configuration that is essentially identical to the Rockler/Grizzly setups mentioned.

I think it could be improved upon it even further with the addition of some of that cloth Nissim uses, and a little work work around the lid to make it more airtight. Putting the cloth in a slip joint on the outside of the system would allow the cloth to be cut up in smaller pieces making it last much longer and be easily accessible for cleaning etc. More importanly though, the in-line filter would hopefully catch a lot of that fine dust that causes the most damage to the vacs.

See the thumbnail pic below.

I used the heavy-duty peel and stick weather stripping to seal mine. Do not use the cheap stuff; it breaks down or gets sucked up when the adhesive fails. The high-density foam stuff has been good for a couple years and shows no sign of fatigue. It's about 80 cents a foot or so IIRC.

[Josh Youngman]

Hi Grant,

My can is air tight. I used rubber weather stripping on the underside of the lid, once the vac starts the lid gets sucked down and the seal is airtight.

Almost too airtight. I recently collapsed my steel can partially and broke the welded joint somewhat, and sprung a leak at that broken weld.

a 55gallon drum would be better if i had the room. I am currently looking for a smaller barrel, mobile grease comes in smaller 15? gallon barrels, my dad has one and made a similar setup, it works well.

[Ed Garrett]

Grant,

It’s cool to see all these home engineered mini-cyclone systems. Here’s my idea and suggestion:

Although I was considering buying the Mini ClearVue cyclone, I thought I might enjoy making my own. My objective was primarily to suck sanding dust directly through my belt sander and ROS. Fearing burning out another Shop Vac, I purchased a $15 home vacuum (from a thrift store), yanked it’s filters, and added an inverted lab bottle and candy jar to the flowpath. No long tapering cone, but since there’s no filter and I set it outside, I wasn’t too worried about capturing all the fines.

I know it’s ugly, but I was stunned at the performance. Much of the captured dust is as fine as baby powder. Perhaps static electrical action grabs a lot of the fine dust. I assume the unit misses many of the microscopic particles, but by design they float off in the breeze.

Result:

Cleaner and more effective sanding
No filter, thus no filter cleaning
Constant suction rate
$15 total cost
Only an hour or two construction time.
Noise and dust is outside my shop
No risk of burning out my (separate) shop vac

Sincerely,
Ed Garrett
Tallahassee

[Prashun Patel]

Perhaps static electrical action grabs a lot of the fine dust.

I hope not. Sawdust and static electrical charge aren't a friendly combination. I repeat, y'all might should be grounding yr plastic 'clones.

[Ed Garrett]

I'm not sure how seriously to take the risk of explosion and fire. From what I've read, particularly on Mr. Pentz's site, that risk may be overblown. I've also read that plastic, because it's an insulator, is not easily grounded. Nonetheless, if I do burn it up, outside the shop is a good place.

I once did burn up a vacuum cleaner trying to use it as a dust collector for the table saw blade guard. Here's where I got really stupid: I left it in the shop not realizing how hot the motor was. When I returned about an hour later the shop was filled with smoke from burned plastic. I sure got lucky that no flames erupted.

Sincerely
Ed Garrett
Tallahassee

[glenn bradley]

I know it’s ugly, but I was stunned at the performance.

Ed, you made my day. That is one of the coolest home-brew ideas I've seen in a while :D .

[Matt Meiser]

Ed, does your wife know what you did to her vacuum? :D :D :D

[Ed Garrett]

She doesn't like this contraption running out in the yard, but it's a throwaway. We've got a backpack vac for the house.

[Randal Stevenson]

I hope not. Sawdust and static electrical charge aren't a friendly combination. I repeat, y'all might should be grounding yr plastic 'clones.

Mythbusters, and a government (don't remember federal or state, was posted on another forum) study have shown that the air to dust mixture isn't correct for the static to explode, in a home shop setup. Kinda like when the gas company drills into their pipe to add a leg. You have metal drilling into metal, but it has a bladder setup so no oxygen gets into the mix to make it the explosive mixture.

[Prashun Patel]

Mythbusters, and a government (don't remember federal or state, was posted on another forum) study have shown that the air to dust mixture isn't correct for the static to explode, in a home shop setup. Kinda like when the gas company drills into their pipe to add a leg. You have metal drilling into metal, but it has a bladder setup so no oxygen gets into the mix to make it the explosive mixture.

Just repeating what I read'sall. Thanks for the education, though.

[Hank Phillips]

Mythbusters, and a government (don't remember federal or state, was posted on another forum) study have shown that the air to dust mixture isn't correct for the static to explode, in a home shop setup.

Mythbusters was testing that by sandblasting a PVC pipe, not fine woodworking dust moving through plastic, so I don't think that's quite a fair comparison.
The government study, got me on that one. :)

[Chiz Eisenhuth]

Just another offering for your container. I located a business that makes chains in custom length for industry. They get their bulk chain in what looks to be 30 gal metal barrels - they look like miniature 55 gal drums. The lids are gasketed and there is a locking compression band for the top so they are perfect for this application. I got mine for $5 because he said that they just scrap them. Look around in a phone book for such a vendor or maybe somene else has an idea of an industry that has these barrels. I just cut two holes in the top and secured the PVC with 'L' brackets, screws and silicone caulk. It works great. It's worth a look.
Later,
Chiz

PS: Regarding static electricity and PVC, I can't tell you difinitively that the static charge is dangerous but when I hook up my DC to my log furniture tenon cutting stand for my router I get a pretty good jolt if I touch it. I wouldn't say that it's much worse than a static shock that you get in the house from walking across the carpet and touching a grounded object, though.