Help & recommendations on Dust Collection

[Kathy White]

I’m new to your forum and have some questions about setting up a dust collection system. We just completed construction on a garage with a separate 20’ x 28’ shop that has a 10’ ceiling. It is so new that we have yet to move the tools in from our previous work area.

Our old work area (a portion of a small one car garage) had little space and was difficult to heat causing us to be fair weather woodworkers. Tools were rolled to the open garage door for use and we blew the ambient dust outside with box fans while using a shop vacuum to collect the heavier sawdust & chips. I realize this wasn’t the best solution for dust control but it worked reasonably well.

Now that we are about to set up the new work area we will be using a ceiling hung air cleaner and house a dust collector in an attached room behind the shop (vented outside) We expect to be hanging ductwork (?) with blast gates around the room and did, during construction, have a 4” pipe routed under the cement floor to the spot we intend to place the table saw. At this point we lack the knowledge to purchase what we need. To date we have a table saw, band saw, compound miter saw, drill press, and a multitude of power hand tools. There are other tools we will be acquiring – planer, jointer, sanders, etc. now that we have space.

Before we begin we want to make sure that we identify our current dust collection needs while planning for more tools, make our purchase, and install it before we start using our existing tools in the new shop.

We are not looking to go the cheap route but also don’t want to overspend for a system that is larger than we need for a hobby shop. I doubt there will ever be more than two tools in use at any one time but we want to work in a safe environment. Where do we start, how do we identify our needs, who makes really good systems, etc.

Thanks for any help you can give us on this subject.

[frank shic]

kathy, welcome. get a cyclone if you can afford it, otherwise get a dust collector. if i had a sub-panel and an extra room to shove the noise, there's no doubt it my mind what i'd upgrade to: a clearvue cyclone!

[Jim O'Dell]

First off, welcome to the Creek. Glad you wadded right on in!
You don't start with easy subjects do you? :eek::D You'll find that dust collection brings out a lot of opinions, many of them radically different than the others. But that's ok, you are looking for information, and the best education is learning all the different aspects, studying them, and deciding what is best for you in your situation.
For me, with a 20 X 24 shop, I chose a cyclone. Cyclones collect the dust and chips by moving a lot of air, swirling it around the "cyclone" chamber which allows the heavier particles to drop into a dust bin, then takes the remaining micro-particles and air and either discharges it outside, as I do, or runs it through a filter(s) to clean the air, and send it back to the shop. The latter will be what you want to do if you condition the shop with heat and/or A/C.
Cyclones are not cheap though. Anywhere from 800.00 to 2000.00 for a home unit, then you have to invest in the piping to attach to all the machines. Depending on the type of material that pipe is and how much you will need, that could be another 300.00 to 1500.00 or more. I personally spent about 900.00 on my Clear Vue cyclone, and about 350.00 on ducting and fittings. I did not purchase filters as I do not condition the air in my shop. It would have been best if you had been able to research this before putting the 4" pipe in the foundation. Many believe that a 6" pipe is needed to move enough air to collect the biggest portion of the unhealthful dust that we create in our hobby.
There are other major players in the Cyclone market. Oneida Air, Penn State, and some others. There is a big debate on which one is best. All I can say is that I am very pleased with mine, and the excellent customer service that Ed, the owner of the company, provides.
If you want to do some research, the mother of all information is Bill Pentz's web site. It may be a little overboard for many people, but is understandable when you realize what dust has to Bill's health over the years. You can easily spend 2 weeks going through the information on his site, and sometimes wonder what you have gotten yourself into, but it is really good information, and gives you a good understanding on how cyclones work.
There are dust collectors that that work more like vacuum cleaners, and this will require emptying the bags and cleaning the filters more often than with a cyclone. But if it works best for your budget, it may be the thing to do for you at the first.
Doing a search here at the Creek on Cyclones or Dust collection will also give you many pages of information to digest. And keep in mind...choosing a method of dust collection is very much like deciding how you stand on religion. And many of us are just as fanatical on the subject of dust collection as an evangelist is about his/her beliefs! :D Here's Bills website. Happy reading! And again, welcome to the Creek!!! Jim.

[Heather Thompson]

Kathy,

I have a shop in a two car garage currently and plan on moving to a larger space in the future. The system that I purchased is overkill for my current location, but I am very happy. I would suggest to contact the folks at Oneida Air Systems and see what they can do to help you. I also tend to agree with jim on the issue of the four inch pipe, would have been better to have six inches going to the table saw.

Heather

[Kathy White]

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately 4" is the largest we could fit. Before I caught the concrete guys they were going to put in a 2" and by then it was impossible to dig the spot deep enough for a 6". Clearly they didn't understand what we were doing. If we are able to suck the dust from underneath the blade with the 4" I will work on something for above the saw.

[Jim Becker]

You'll be ok with the 4" duct to the saw cabinet...it's not ideal, but if you also have an overarm guard with dust collection, it will make a huge difference.

I'm also a fan of Oneida...they've been in the business for a long time. They have done right by me for both of the systems I've purchased from them and the Gorilla systems currently marketed to the home shop are top performers.

Oh, welcome to SMC!

[frank shic]

kathy, another thought: don't know what model tablesaw you two are running, but check out the sharkguard made my lee styrone. ever since i installed it on my contractor's saw, it's virtually eliminated all the sawdust even though i'm just running a humble delta dust collector.

[Jude Kingery]

Kathy, you've gotten a lot of good, comprehensive information from folks more knowledgable than I, but we can relate to the "small, one car garage," for our shop. Sounds like now you have a new area. I'd simply suggest a combination - we have a fairly good dust collector, then a filter up about over head, which I run all the time when out there sawing or turning, leave it on about 2 hours afterwards and clean those filters often, then course a shop vac, and I also wear a 3M half face mask respirator and safety glasses which pretty much meets all my needs by using that sort of combination. Best wishes on your endeavors, be safe and have fun! Jude

[William Nimmo]

I just purchased the jet 1 1/2 hp cannister filter dust collector $479. Can't imagine needing anything more for a small shop. Upgraded from a 3/4 hp jet. Huge upgrade.

[Jim Kountz]

Kathy welcome to the Creek! As others have said the 4" to the saw will work ok and I too am on the cyclone band wagon. If you cant swing the cyclone be sure at the very least to get a separator for a regular dust collector if you go that route. This is just a lid for a steel garbage can that will sort of act like a cyclone, removing the big chips before they enter the DC. Not the most ideal and certainly not as good as a cyclone but it will get the job done to some degree. Like others have said if you can do it get the cyclone.

[Tim Sproul]

I would suggest to contact the folks at Oneida Air Systems and see what they can do to help you. I also tend to agree with jim on the issue of the four inch pipe,


I would agree with this. I don't understand airflow and all the dynamics involved but you may find that use of 4 inch pipe/duct might make purchase of larger dust collectors useless. I say this because the general principal dust collectors follow is to move a lot of air but at the cost of having to do so under minimal air flow restriction. Shop vacs tend to go the opposite....they don't move a lot of air but can operate under a lot of restriction to airflow. Giving Oneida or another professional air handling systems company a call will help you choose the appropriate setup given what you have to work with.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't get a dust collector....just that getting a larger 5HP cyclone might not be any better than a 1 1/2 HP cyclone given the requirement to stay with 4 inch pipe.

[Bill Roland]

I sent you a PM on this problem.

[Jim Becker]

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't get a dust collector....just that getting a larger 5HP cyclone might not be any better than a 1 1/2 HP cyclone given the requirement to stay with 4 inch pipe.

Only the TS cabinet is limited to 4". Since duct work isn't yet specified for the rest of the shop, there is a lot of flexibility in choices. A 2 or 3 hp Oneida system or something similar in performance would not be overkill, IMHO, and the decision can't be based on a single drop.

[Mark Carlson]

Kathy,

I'm green with envy at the size of your shop, in a separate building with a dedicated room for a dust collector. If I was in your situation I would get a cyclone. A canister style dust collector, which is what I have, are a pain. The canisters quickly clog with dust and require constant cleaning. I've always followed dust collection threads closely because I'm thinking of upgrading soon. My current choice for system is a Clearvue Cyclone. I'm not sure if its true but everything I've read has made me believe that the clearvue does the best job at seperating the dust, and keeping the dust out of the filters. Because my cyclone will be in the same room with me I want the best dust seperation I can get. Good luck with your decision.

Oh, and welcome to the creek.

~mark

[Heather Thompson]

Only the TS cabinet is limited to 4". Since duct work isn't yet specified for the rest of the shop, there is a lot of flexibility in choices. A 2 or 3 hp Oneida system or something similar in performance would not be overkill, IMHO, and the decision can't be based on a single drop.


I agree with Jim 100%, just because you have 4" in the floor does not limit your ability to duct the rest of the shop with larger main runs and drops to machines. When I did my shop it was with the intent of being to upgrade as my machines get older and grow up and their appetites increase. :)

Heather

[Jim Becker]

The one thing that the 4" duct in the floor does limit is...where the saw can go as the shop evolves over time...but for collection it will work "fine".

[Tim Sproul]

Only the TS cabinet is limited to 4".

I should read more carefully. I thought the duct main was limited to 4 inches.

[glenn bradley]

Yeah, you picked a lively topic. Since good responses are based on experience, I'll share mine. I run a single stage unit that uses a sort of manifold of blast gates to focus it on one tool at a time. I added a trashcan separator and took a significant hit on my airflow. A separator is an after-market second stage that acts sorta like a cyclone.

Now here's the important part; the operational benefit of the separator is so great that I live with the performance hit. I cannot imagine using a bag/filter only set up again. In short; get a cyclone, do not consider not getting a cyclone and oh . . . get a cyclone.

[Dave Norris]

You really should talk to Ed Morgano at Clearvue Cyclones http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/ very good information at the least, and a very good product too. Very cool to watch the cyclone work through the clear plastic. Won't rust and Ed gives great service. The price is pretty attractive too.

[Heather Thompson]

You really should talk to Ed Morgano at Clearvue Cyclones http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/ very good information at the least, and a very good product too. Very cool to watch the cyclone work through the clear plastic. Won't rust and Ed gives great service. The price is pretty attractive too.


I don't mean to be a pinhead here, but when I am feeding something through the tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, thickness planer(maybe), drill press, etc, I really don't have time to be watching sawdust. My overall concern is that I am not breathing the crap, and no wood is not crap-dust is!!!!!!!

Heather:confused:

[Jim O'Dell]

The one thing that the 4" duct in the floor does limit is...where the saw can go as the shop evolves over time...but for collection it will work "fine".

And this only limits things if you have to use that duct for the TS. No rule says you can't pipe a 5 or 6" duct from the ceiling to the TS. If it comes down at the far right back corner of the saw extension table, it doesn't get in the way at all. Use the 4" duct to run power!! :D Jim.

[Marty Schlosser]

I'll third that motion! Your shop dust collection system's CFM requirement is based on the resistance of the ducting, plus the number and size of the tools you'll concurrently have running. For instance, I frequently run my jointer and table saw at the same time when milling rough lumber. The table saw has a 5" outlet in the cabinet and a 4" over-arm pick-up, while the jointer has a 5" outlet. I've a small shop, but even with the short distances the chips and dust have to go, I needed a dust collector that could draw 850 CFM at 9.7" of resistance (also known as w.c.). Once you know those two figures, you can go to various manufacturers and ask to see the fan curve for their product line. Get one that will meet that requirement, and perhaps a bit more if you plan on ever expanding your shop or the size of machinery.

After doing my homework, I elected to go with Oneida Air Systems and purchased their Pro Series 1500. They were really helpful and assisted me in designing what has been an excellent system. I've had it operating for nearly a year now and have nothing but good things to say about the system and Oneida. By the way, one of the things that sold me on the Pro Series was the 5 year warranty. Obviously, they're confident in that series.

[Jim Becker]

And this only limits things if you have to use that duct for the TS. No rule says you can't pipe a 5 or 6" duct from the ceiling to the TS. If it comes down at the far right back corner of the saw extension table, it doesn't get in the way at all. Use the 4" duct to run power!! :D Jim.

That's actually a very good option...thanks for mentioning it!

[Dave Norris]

I don't mean to be a pinhead here, but when I am feeding something through the tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, thickness planer(maybe), drill press, etc, I really don't have time to be watching sawdust. My overall concern is that I am not breathing the crap, and no wood is not crap-dust is!!!!!!!

Heather:confused:

But you can see when the thing is full...... and .... it doesn't rust so it can go outside...... plus it's just darn cool

[Randy Denby]

But you can see when the thing is full...... and .... it doesn't rust so it can go outside...... plus it's just darn cool


This brings up a question I've had......Why dont they make the most obvious area clear, namely the dust bin? By the time you see the cyclone full, its too late. I dont get it...
I do admit it being cool to see the dust swirla round. Especially useful for others to see how it works. But, after a time, might be more prudent to watch the blades :)

[glenn bradley]

This brings up a question I've had......Why dont they make the most obvious area clear, namely the dust bin? By the time you see the cyclone full, its too late. I dont get it...
I do admit it being cool to see the dust swirla round. Especially useful for others to see how it works. But, after a time, might be more prudent to watch the blades :)

You can get clear bins but they are expensive. A little slot window is a good alternative.

[Aaron Beaver]

This brings up a question I've had......Why dont they make the most obvious area clear, namely the dust bin? By the time you see the cyclone full, its too late. I dont get it...
I do admit it being cool to see the dust swirla round. Especially useful for others to see how it works. But, after a time, might be more prudent to watch the blades :)


I have heard of people cutting a "window" in their bin and covering the hole with clear plastic of some sort, just be sure to seal it up well.

[Eric Gustafson]

This brings up a question I've had......Why dont they make the most obvious area clear, namely the dust bin?

The whole reason for the clear cyclone is that the manufacturer had built a steel version for himself, liked the results, and wanted to see it in action. So he built a clear version and showed it around. People asked if he could make more so they could have one. The orders piled in and the rest is history. The unit does not include the dust bin, clear or opaque.

[Jim Becker]

I have heard of people cutting a "window" in their bin and covering the hole with clear plastic of some sort, just be sure to seal it up well.
Exactly what I did...of course, I have to remember to look...:rolleyes: :o

[Allen Koriakin]

I picked up a used Oneida 3hp gorilla off Craigslist about 6 months ago. For some strange reason the man who purchased it was trying to use it for his fiberglass business and found out the hard way that the filter was never designed for that kind of dust. The short....his loss was my gain.

I was seriously considering the 2hp version of the dust gorilla but I was able to pick this one up with a ton of duct work for 1350. The invoice he showed me was more than 2k. Getting this thing in my basement workshop wasn't easy but I managed to hoist it up by myself.

Planning out the ducts was alot of fun and I've managed to hook up every tool I own. Needless to say this thing really sucks! Since I've hooked everything up I don't seem to get that layer of dust that usually appears on everything in my shop.

A good DC is a major expense but worth it in the long run. Your lungs will thank you some day.

Get a cyclone if you can but even if you don't want to shell out the bucks get a good bag model with a good filter. I had a small Jet model that I loved but the bag that came with it was garbage.

[Dave Norris]

Not to belabor the point, or hijack the thread, but I am extremely happy with my Clearvue. Plenty of power (enough to suck up a box of router collars---dont' ask...), and when the Leeson 5 hp motor "failed on startup", Ed took good care of me, even sending me a new motor to use while all the testing etc. was done on my motor.

[Kathy White]

Sorry it has taken me so long to thank everyone for their help. My husband's mother died and we headed for the mid-west for a couple of weeks. Sad time but I only hope we live such a full life. On the shop front, we plan on moving tools into the shop this weekend. I think it will give us a better feel for tool placement and the routing of ductwork. We will put everyone's advice to good use in choosing our system - leaning toward a cyclone.

Thanks again,

Kathy

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Kathy, I have an Oneida cyclone, I've owned it for 5 years now, it makes the top of my best tools list.

I have a basement shop, and the Oneida removes the dust before it gets into the air, that's the important part.

Forget room air cleaners, once the dust is in the air, there are two room air cleaners removing dust, the mechanical one, and the human one.

A properly designed cyclone system with the proper filters will take care of all your dust/chip collection issues. My shop is esentially dust free, and like other replies you have received, I cannot say enough about Oneida.

Oh, and as for the clear cyclone so you can see when it's full, the Oneida comes with a length of clear duct that connects the separator to the dust barrel so you can see when it's full.

regards, Rod.

[Jeff Norri]

I am not sure what your layout is Kathy or what tools you have run in ground 4" pipe to, but I think a big 3hp DC is still worth it. For instance if you have a DC that can support 6" pipe, you could have 4" above your table saw and 4" below (a great combo in my mind if you have the DC to support it). I don't find 4" to the jointer a big deal as it is not a big dust maker (IMHO) and 4" will collect chips just fine - so if you just have 4" there it is no big deal. If you have a bigger BS you most likely have two 4" ports, so 4" to the bottom port and dropping 4" to the top port would work great.

If I had setup like you I would look at a 3+hp and run 6" dc that splits into two 4" ports for some tools. I you truly want to vent out side (you will be venting your heat outside too) then a cyclone may not be needed - you really just need a a DC that pulls high CFM and then when it get to the DC nothign fancy needs to happen as the air is not coming back into your shop. But if I were you, I would want to vent my hot air back into my shop and would go teh Cyclone route. Having said all that I have a 2hp DC with 5" duct work and it works "pretty good". My DC is in its own cabinet and the cabinet is sealed with a furnace filter outlet, these seems to really help with noise and dust. Here is my shop tour with my setp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhmASARqtN0

[Hank Phillips]

I picked up a used Oneida 3hp gorilla off Craigslist about 6 months ago. For some strange reason the man who purchased it was trying to use it for his fiberglass business and found out the hard way that the filter was never designed for that kind of dust. The short....his loss was my gain.

I was seriously considering the 2hp version of the dust gorilla but I was able to pick this one up with a ton of duct work for 1350. The invoice he showed me was more than 2k. Getting this thing in my basement workshop wasn't easy but I managed to hoist it up by myself.

Planning out the ducts was alot of fun and I've managed to hook up every tool I own. Needless to say this thing really sucks! Since I've hooked everything up I don't seem to get that layer of dust that usually appears on everything in my shop.

A good DC is a major expense but worth it in the long run. Your lungs will thank you some day.

Get a cyclone if you can but even if you don't want to shell out the bucks get a good bag model with a good filter. I had a small Jet model that I loved but the bag that came with it was garbage.

That's a great deal! Put me down as another vote for a cyclone. I was going to build one on my own, but I just haven't found the time, have to get my new shop done first, and don't know if the money saved would be worth the time spent to me. Now I'm leaning towards an Oneida myself... I was impressed with my friends' floor sander vac system he got from them, so I sniffed around a few places to compare and got some good info.

Funny thing, I was just on Oneida's website and I thought this was a little wierd, but they have an email exchange between their president and Bill Pentz about aspects of dust collection systems. Struck me as odd because I thought they didn't play nice together!

[John Kaye]

Hi, I am also looking to buy a cyclone dust collector. It just so happens that both Grizzly (PA) and Penn State Industries are convenient (no shipping charges). But, I notice that Clearvue and Oneida are almost exclusively recommended and I am not "married" to G or PSI. Can anyone offer any clarification here as I want to make the best purchase possible.

Thank you.

[Frederick Rowe]

John - I have a 2HP Super Gorilla and have been extremely pleased with the unit and Oneida's customer service. As far as the Grizzly G0440, I didn't like how they use flex pipe from the cyclone body to the air filter. The Oneida uses a wide radius steel pipe. The Oneida also has a "Teflon-like" coating on the interior of the filter pleats to aid in the release of dust cake. Frankly, I'm up to between 10 and 12 cycles of emptying the barrel and there is no dust to speak of in the filter catch. It truly works as advertised. The G0440's filter cleaning brush seemed like a gimmick, and I preferred the Oneida metal filter cap over the G0440's plastic bag. Anyway, from what I read Grizzly makes good products and has a reputation for similar customer service. I'm sure their cyclone is decent, Oneida just seemed to have such universal support from customers, and buying American was a feel good bonus.

[Robert Payne]

IMHO, the clear plastic of the ClearVue cyclones is not a gimmick, it is a useful feature that lets the user see how material is moving through the unit if one choses. It is very efficient and when equipped with the recommended Wynn Environmental filters (99.99% efficient at 0.5 microns), it removes the most harmful dust from from your shop. I took delivery of a CV1800 last weekend and bought a CV06 Mini Cyclone for my Shop Vac as well. The Cyclone design on these units is very efficient and filters rarely get clogged. Just my .02

Rob Payne (McRabbet)

[Hank Phillips]

IMHO, the clear plastic of the ClearVue cyclones is not a gimmick, it is a useful feature that lets the user see how material is moving through the unit if one choses. It is very efficient and when equipped with the recommended Wynn Environmental filters (99.99% efficient at 0.5 microns), it removes the most harmful dust from from your shop. I took delivery of a CV1800 last weekend and bought a CV06 Mini Cyclone for my Shop Vac as well. The Cyclone design on these units is very efficient and filters rarely get clogged. Just my .02

Rob Payne (McRabbet)

That's really good separation, which model filters do they recommend?

[Robert Payne]

That's really good separation, which model filters do they recommend?
They recommend two of the Wynn 9L300BL Filters ($70 each + shipping) stacked end-to-end, yielding 600 sq. ft. of filtration area. Here is the link to the Wynn Cartridge Filters (http://www.wynnenv.com/cartridge_filters.htm) page.

[Hank Phillips]

They recommend two of the Wynn 9L300BL Filters ($70 each + shipping) stacked end-to-end, yielding 600 sq. ft. of filtration area. Here is the link to the Wynn Cartridge Filters (http://www.wynnenv.com/cartridge_filters.htm) page.

Thanks... I'm a little skeptical though. HEPA filters will remove in the neigborhood of 99.97% down to 0.3, so it's kind of an "it's too good to be true" thing for me that a mostly paper non-HEPA filter will get down to that kind of filtration level. They have test data, but it even says that it doesn't apply to that particular filter, which is fine and I understand that... but having some that does back up that claim of 99.99% efficient at 0.5 microns would be nice.