Dovetail saw. Winzlof or Lie Nielson?

[Dave Lehnert]

Looking to add a Dovetail saw to my collection. Looking at Winzlof and Lie Nielson. Anyone have hands on experience with each brand? Likes and dislikes of each.
Any other brand I should consider?

[Peter Tremblay]

When I was looking to get a DT saw I was wondering the same question. Ultimately I went with a Wenzloff saw that is modeled after the saws in the Seaton Tool chest. I LOVE IT! I really recommend anything that Mike and his sons make.

Peter

[Casey Gooding]

I am currently using an Independence dovetail saw and absolutely love it. It's the original whose design was later sold to Lie-Nielsen. It's comfortable and easy to use.
Adria makes a nice dovetail saw as well. I just happen to have one listed on a particular auction site I'm sure we're all aware of.
I can highly recomend either of them.
I've also heard very good things about the Grammercy Dovetail Saw from Tools for Working Wood.
Any of them will last several lifetimes and be good investments.

[Glenn Madsen]

I have a pair of LN saws, dovetail and crosscut, and an Adria dovetail. They are all good. Mike's saws have a person attached to the company, and quite a reputation based on custom craftsmanship. And a rumoured waiting period lasting some weeks/months. That's why I have both the LN and Adria saws. While waiting for the Adria to arrive from the Great White North, I bought the LN saws at the local Woodcraft.

Some of us have little patience at times. Imagine that. In a hurry for a hand tool. Boggles the mind.:o

There are many good saws around. If you can try one first, at a friend/dealer, then you'll be better off, possibly.

[Mark Stutz]

I haven't used the Ln saws...just tried a few sample cuts...but I have an Adria DT and several Wenzloffs. I prefer the Wenzloffs. They are easier to start. I suspect if I had the sharpening skills I could make the Adria perform the same, but I don't!

Mark

[jonathan snyder]

Here is my latest addition.

73380

8", imbuia-handled, 15ppi, blade is .018" thick

It was made by a fellow by the name of Tim Hoffman, of Wisconsin. I just got it yesterday. Its a sweet saw, starts easy, cuts smooth, and tracks straight. Its my first new saw, so I cant compare it to a LN or a Wenzlof, but I thought I would show it off. If you are interested in contacting Tim, he hangs out over on Woodnet.

Jonathan

[Derek Cohen]

This article could help:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/2saws/fatherSon.asp

I have written about my observations of two saws, a new (!) IT filed by Mike Wenzloff, and essentially the same saw, the LN Independence, which of course is filed by LN.

Great saws both, but one cuts more easily than the other...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ian Smith]

And a rumoured waiting period lasting some weeks/months.

I ordered a carcass saw from Mike back in April. I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

I imagine you could get one sooner if you bought one of the Wenzloff saws offered by either Lee Valley or The Best Things.

[Tony Sade]

While I doubt the wait for one of Mike W's saws at Lee Valley will approach the lag if you order from him directly (21 weeks, the last time I looked) LV isn't exactly pushing them out the door either. I placed an order as soon as they were "available" and the ship date steadily has been pushed back, starting at 9/6 and now supposed to ship on 10/18. No doubt the popularity (and quality) of Mike's work has seriously affected his ability to meet orders. A nice problem to have. (And well-deserved.)

A happy owner of two of his panel saws,

[Scott Brihn]

In addition to the saws you mention I would add the Gramercy 9", 19tpi Dovetail (Model GT-DSAW9) saw to your list for consideration.

During a visit to Tools for Working Wood this summer Joel let me try the Lie-Nielsen, Wenzloff and Gramercy saws. All three are quality, although I was "sold" on the Gramercy immediately.

I own both the Lie-Nielsen and Gramercy saws and prefer the Gramercy. It is lighter, starts easier and tracks just as well. It looks good too, although I prefer the cherry on the Lie-Nielsen to the walnut on the Gramercy.

Joel at ToolsforWorkingWood has put a fair amount of thought into this saw which is reflected in the performance.

[Raney Nelson]

Disclaimer: I have only been dovetailing by hand for about a year, and am very inexperienced compared to most of the handtool gurus around here.

Having said that, here is my opinion as a 'newbie': My first dovetail saw was an LN - which i sold after about 6 months when my Wenzloff saw was ready. In my opinion, the saws are quite similar in function, but the Wenzloff seems marginally easier to use for me, probably due in equal parts to the customized sharpening Mike did and the 'placebo' factor that comes from feeling so personally attached to a saw. Mike's handles are nicer in my opinion, although it is a pretty marginal difference, and one could easily spend 10 minutes with a very ine rasp and sandpaper to get the LN handle to the same level of comfort. The most significant difference to me is the gorgeous curly bubinga Mike made for me, and the custom filing job you can request from Mike. There is an intangible attachment to a tool custom-made for you by a master craftsman. The lead-time, though, was close to six months, which is why I bought the LN to use while I waited. I think I took a $10 hit when i sold the LN - well worth it to me.

The Gramercy saw, however, which I am currently trying to replicate at home, is a very intriguing saw. The handle design is quite different - higher hang, and thinner, more 'delicate' feel. Plus, there is a cant to the blade that Joel asserts allows for a more comfortable stance, and improved cuts. I have roughed out a handle from TFWW's plans, and I gave it a quick test with a re-filed Crown sawblade I had. I like the handle a lot. I'm not selling the Wenzloff, but to be honest if I had to look again I'd have a tough time deciding. As it is, I'm pretty sure I'll add a Gramercy to the 'collection' pretty soon. My gut feeling is that the Gramercy may suit better for thin (1/2-inch or under) dovetailing, while the Wenzloff is somewhat more flexible in its applications.

I can't imagine you would be dissatisfied with any of the saws mentioned in this thread. The hard part, for me, is not buying all of them - I really aspire to being a user and not a collector.

[Michael Hammers]

I have been speaking with two other sawmakers recently. One being "Ed in Oakville". From what I have gathered he makes some great saws and is priced competively.

The other is Andrew Lunn. He seems like a very amiable young man and has some beautiful work.

http://www.eccentricwoodcraft.com/index.html

What a great time to be a galoot with all these cottage toolmakers and their quality wares!

[mike holden]

I have both the Lie-Nielsen and the Gramercy dovetail saws. And altho I dont have a Wenzloff dovetail, I do have the Seaton Tenon Saw.
Right now, my go-to dovetail saw is the Gramercy. It starts easily and leaves a fine, smooth kerf.
However, I think you would be happy with any of the three.
Mike

[Ken Werner]

What a tough decision. I've used a Mike Wenzloff cutomized DT saw, and a standard LN DT saw. Both are great. The LN has a more reflective polish, which can be useful in lining up perpendicular to your stock. But the MW has a bit of fleam [per Mike's and my discussion] which makes it easier to start. The LN has a more mass produced handle, while the MW is wonderfully shaped to hand. You can get the LN right away, and from MW, you will wait, and wait, and wait. Or you can order from the vendors that seem to have them in stock. Either way you won't go wrong. But imagine having a Disston saw, with a note from Henry saying "Thanks for buying my saw" That's what you get when you buy from Mike. As others have said - there's something special that appeals to a craftsman about buying a tool made by a master in his shop that is intangible and quite wondrous.

Good luck. Post a gloat....

Ken

[Doug Littlejohn]

I had both LN saws and like them very much. I decided after some time that I really wanted some saws that I could have a personal touch with it's maker so ordered up 2 MW saws. I emailed back and forth with MIke to go over what work I did and with what materials mostly and went with his reccomendations.

Lastly, I bought them both as kits. I really wanted something that MIke had made but then I also had a hand in making. Plus, this give me the opportunity to mold the handles to my hands.

Lead time, well there's the rub. Mine took 5 months from placing the order to their arrival and I still have to finish them before I can use them. That 21 weeks is just to where they will start the process the order which then takes another 6-8 weeks to get the saws.

I know that I will be very happy with these, not only as great tools but also as tools I can hand down to my children.

[Don C Peterson]

I have the LN dovetail saw and I love it. I enthusiastically recommend it to anyone.

I should probably qualify my qualifications though. I had used Japanese saws exclusively for about 2 years and had never a western style back-saw. When I decided to try my hand at hand-cut dovetails I grew frustrated with my Japanese saws so I went down to my local Woodcraft and adopted the LN dovetail saw. Immediately I was able to cut accrurately to the line on BOTH sides of the board.

I've only had the LN for about 2 months, but I don't think I'll ever part with it. LN may not give you that 1 on 1 feeling of dealing with the person who crafted your saw, but their customer service is second to none should you ever need it, and there is something to be said for a saw that you can actually put your hands on before Christmas...or Spring...or sometime...

[rick fulton]

Rather than compare the LN's of the past with the MW's. Has anyone compared the new LN progressive-pitch saw to a MW?

Christopher Schwarz blog preview of the progressive-pitch makes it sound like a winner. Reference:
http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/New+LieNielsen+Progressivepitch+Saw.aspx

Is this saw available in stock anywhere yet?

[Tony Zaffuto]

Whatever you get, you got to use it to know it! I got an Adria that I really like (cherry, walnut, etc.). I've also used my LN small carcass saw to cut dovetails and it did a decent job. The Adria has a nicer feeling handle than the LN

For softer woods (poplar, etc.) , I have a "no-name" (Freud or Crown or ???) dovetail saw that I've had for years. I made a new handle for it, patterned after the Adria. The saw started off as a 20 pt. rip, and I had Steve Cooke re-tooth it to 14 pt. Saw plate is same thickness as LN. I probably have with original cost and Cooke's cost, maybe $40 or so in that saw.

As I said, however, saws are no different than any other hand tool: their extensions of your hand and arm. You got to use and get used to the tool. The more you use it, the more natural it will begin to feel and subjectively you'll feel its the best!

T.Z.