wiring a 3 phase motor without diagram

[frank shic]

anyone know if it's possible to hack out the wiring for a 3 phase motor/switch? i've contacted the company on my antique hinge boring press only to find out that it's so ancient that the original manufacturer has gone out of business and there are no other wiring diagrams on hand!

[Josiah Bartlett]

Can you figure out who made the motor? That might help.

[Brett Baldwin]

If I understand correctly, you want to wire a 3 phase motor to a switched source. If that's right, just run your wires through the switch and then hook them up to the motor in any combonation of the 3. Turn it on and if it the motor spins the wrong direction, just switch any 2 of the 3 legs and it wil reverse direction.

If I misunderstood what you are looking for, please supply more info on your machine and more detail to the problem. There's a decent chance someone else has/did have your machine here.

[Michael Weber]

Frank, I wire 3 phase motors occasionally in my job. It really dosen't matter which phase goes to which terminal. If the motor runs backward then reverse any two wires and it will run opposite. No experience with antiques motors so they may be different.

[frank shic]

i'll take a picture of this boat anchor when i get a chance but i wish it were so simple just to wire the power supply. the problem is that the internal wires (approximately nine of them, three of which are held together by some kind of plastic clasp) are all hanging loose from their original positions and i have no idea which wires to connect to what leads.

a little bit more background: i love building frameless cabinets and hinge boring presses are extremely useful in this regard. i've been trolling craigslist for MONTHS only to find one that's reasonably priced but over two hours away and another that's a little more than i'd like to spend. i see an ad the other day advertising it for $150. i bargained him down to $120! i drive on down to oakland after getting lost (i really need to get a GPS AFTER i satisfy my tool lust!!!) several times and meet this guy who turns out to be an apprentice japanese framing carpenter. he inherited the hinge press from a homeless man that got the hinge press from another cabinetmaker who had the machine sitting around for the last decade and finally decided to "bestow" it upon the homeless guy.

this "gift" has now found it's way into my garage where i think it'll probably stay for a short while before making it's way to scrap metal heaven.

[Greg Cole]

Frank,
Sounds like you have the wires from the motor windings not attached to any terminals in the umm...well what we call a "peckerhead" here for lack of better terms. 9 unidentified wires makes for waaaaaaay too many different ways of landing them incorrectly & once ya let the smoke out ya can't ever get it all back in.:cool:
Best shot is to take the motor to a local shop and have them give it a go.
Do you know if this motor is even functional? Might be a good time to have the bearings replaced and rewound...? Then again depending on the HP of the motor most times it's cheaper to buy a new one than re-work one under about a couple HP.
Just thinking out loud.

Greg

[frank shic]

greg, peckerhead? i thought that "juicebox" would be a more scientific term :rolleyes: i'll screw around with this thing for another week and then i'll start looking for a scrap metal yard nearby. it's just TOO HEAVY to be schlepping around - i almost injured myself yesterday trying to get it back out of the trunk!

[Matt Meiser]

Wouldn't it be possible to put a new motor on it?

[Garth Thompson]

Normally the 9 leads wil be numbered 1 to 9; do these leads have small metal tag with number on them if so we may beable to help.

Garth

[Sam Kennard]

This link might be of some help. (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002484;p=0)

[frank shic]

sam, that's the type of info i've been looking for. MUCHOS GRACIAS. greg's right, it REALLY is called a PECKERHEAD! garth, there are tags but they're labelled something like U,V,W and U1,V1,W1 and then there's that cluster which is all bound up in a plastic sheath. matt, i'll probably destroy my fingers or my back trying to dismantle the motor and i'd rather not sink any more greenbacks into this. now to stop by radio shack...

[Rick Christopherson]

......three of which are held together by some kind of plastic clasp) are all hanging loose from their original positions and i have no idea which wires to connect to what leads.Those three wires that are already connected together indicate that the motor was previously wired for 240 volts (as opposed to 480). This is good, because the "memory" of the stiff wires may give you some clues how to connect the remaining 6 wires.

Leave those 3 wires connected together, and they do not connect to anything else.

The remaining six wires will connect in pairs to your three incoming phases. If you can't find any type of identification on them, then you might be able to make good guesses as to which wires were paired together.

As was mentioned, you connect the three pairs to your incoming power. Reversing the direction of a 3-phase motor is just a matter of swapping any two power wires, so if the motor runs backward, then simply swap any two.
============================
With all of that being said, the very first thought to cross my mind when I read your original posting is that you might be thinking that you can just connect up your 3-phase motor to an existing 240 volt circuit. If you already knew this, then great, but if not, let us know and I can give you a list of options.

http://www.waterfront-woods.com/tempgraphics/9-wire-motor.jpg
The picture above is wrong, in that both of these configurations are Wye wound (not Delta). I don't know why the manufacturer labeled these as "Run" and "Start" but I assumed it was a non-english speaking company (powermatic no less) and they got confused. In my haste to post this, I just quickly crossed those off based on the symbols. In reality, both symbols should be the upsidedown Y, but one is in parallel and the other in series. I'll fix the actual picture some time in the future.

[Rick Christopherson]

sam, that's the type of info i've been looking for. MUCHOS GRACIAS. greg's right, it REALLY is called a PECKERHEAD! garth, there are tags but they're labelled something like U,V,W and U1,V1,W1 and then there's that cluster which is all bound up in a plastic sheath. matt, i'll probably destroy my fingers or my back trying to dismantle the motor and i'd rather not sink any more greenbacks into this. now to stop by radio shack...Well there's your answer. The U's, V's, and W's are the pairs you need.

[frank shic]

here's a picture of the peckerhead. the wires are labelled in three clumps: (u1,v1,w1), (u2,v2,w2) and (u5,v5,w5) rick, is it as simple as hooking up u1,u2,u5 together? now does anyone know where i can pick up a three phase plug? then i'll just need to either build a rotary phase converter or buy one...

[Rick Christopherson]

... is it as simple as hooking up u1,u2,u5 together?No. As I said above, leave (u2,v2,w2) alone. Yes, U1 + U5 = Phase-A, etc.

For a motor this small, I think you can get a VFD for about $100. That would be the easiest and cheapest off-the-shelf option for you. You could build a balanced static converter from my article http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/phaseconverter.htm. However, if your hinge boring machine is similar to mine, the motor starts only as you begin plunging downward, so the frequent starts are not very good for the motor or converter when running from a static converter. You could build a rotary converter from the same article to overcome this, but that will probably cost you more than the VFD of this size. Keep your eye out and maybe you can find a used VFD for less.

One important thing for you to know is that not all cup hinges have the same drilling pattern. It is hard to tell, but it looks like yours will drill the bores for doweled insertion, so if you plan on using these, you will need to verify which brand they are set for.

Mine is a Grass boring machine, and because of this, I accidentally found out that Grass hinges can be purchased with the Blum hole pattern (not good for me), so maybe Blum hinges can also be purchased in the Grass pattern. (It really sucks if you get the wrong hole pattern). Make a test bore, and bring it in to your hardware supplier and they can tell you what your options are.

I would like to see a full picture of the machine too if you can, just out of curiosity. Is it fully pneumatic, or just the manual version? I bought mine new on a special deal for about $400-$500 when I also purchased 300 hinges. My father keeps harping on me to sell it to him because lately he is using it more than I am, but there is no way i would ever part with it.

[frank shic]

rick, thanks again for the advice. the machine is a green machine I which is the granddaddy of the ecopress. after speaking with their machinery liaison i believe the order of release was: green machine I, green machine II, unipress and ecopress. i already have two ecopresses (a manual from true32 when they were running a half-off sale and a pneumatic that came from a pawnshop) that are set up for boring drawer fronts and the suspension brackets, but i wanted another one to devote to boring for levelling feet. i modified my drill press with an add-on euroeze attachment from woodworker.com to bore for blum inserta hinges. that reminds me, i have to figure out how to knock the forstner bit out of the spindle as the set screw appears long gone but the bit is still stuck in there as if it were almost welded!

the machine is fully pneumatic. i suspect that the motor stays engaged throughout the plunging process. i'll shoot some pics later on this evening.

you only had to purchase 300 hinges?!? maybe i should change suppliers!

[Rick Christopherson]

My apologies Frank, I had assumed that this was likely your first introduction to hinge boring machines. Most woodworkers on the forums have never heard of these, let alone own 3 or 4 of them already. :D

It's been over 10 years since I bought my EcoPress, but it was a deal that I just couldn't pass up. I am pretty sure it was only 300 hinges that I had to buy in order to get the price reduction. I was running a small cabinet shop at the time, but have since reverted it back to hobby status.

I built a rolling cart as a hinging station with 20 drawers across the front for various cups and backplates, and recessed the EcoPress into the table for handling large doors. But because the cart weights several hundred pounds, it isn't terribly portable.

I don't know if this would be a good idea or not, but to break the bit loose, you might try boring with it. You would just need to be careful to not let is spin too much.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

PM me with an e-mail address and I'll send you a PDF that has lots of info

[frank shic]

rick, i STILL CANNOT BELIEVE the deal you got on that ecopress! did you get the manual or the pneumatic? if i could buy another one, i would prefer to get another 110 volt manual - it's so nice NOT to have to fire up the air compressor although the pneumatic hold downs are pretty neat when they snap down on the panel! your suggestion of boring with it to loosen the bit isn't a bad one if i could just get the BEAST started...

[Steve Clardy]

Not as good as Ricks deal,
but I believe Salice still has their deals on machines.
Buy 300 hinges a month for 24 months, and the machine is free.

You gotta use a lot of hinges though to justify the deal.

Normally the machines they sell are around $1000.00, last I checked, which was about two years ago.

[Rick Christopherson]

Buy 300 hinges a month for 24 months, and the machine is free.Hmmm. I didn't dig to deep into a wholesale catalog that carries Salice hinges, but aren't salice hinges with a baseplate between $1.50 and $2.00 apiece for the standard set? This works out to spending $11,000 to $15,000 over two years for a $1000 machine. What's worse, if you are doing that kind of volume, the manual press is not going to suit your needs. That's in the ballpark of 36 kitchens a year, or almost one a week.

[Steve Clardy]

Hmmm. I didn't dig to deep into a wholesale catalog that carries Salice hinges, but aren't salice hinges with a baseplate between $1.50 and $2.00 apiece for the standard set? This works out to spending $11,000 to $15,000 over two years for a $1000 machine. What's worse, if you are doing that kind of volume, the manual press is not going to suit your needs. That's in the ballpark of 36 kitchens a year, or almost one a week.

Rick. I use the one-piece hinge, 3-way adjust.
$.76 each in bulk.

24 months, approximately $5473.00

[frank shic]

Well, that's a fair amount of pocket change there, Steve! I'm wondering how much I need to buy from HDL USA to get the new manual hinge boring press from Blum.

[Steve Clardy]

Well, that's a fair amount of pocket change there, Steve! I'm wondering how much I need to buy from HDL USA to get the new manual hinge boring press from Blum.


Not sure Frank. Give them guys at HDL a phone call.
They are very helpful.

Have you searched ebay for a machine?
Lately there has been all flavors.

[frank shic]

steve, after this experience, i would like to stay away from three phase machinery if at all possible!

[Steve Clardy]

There has been several that were single phase.

I have a machine.
I've been watching the auctions for another machine for another cabinet maker.