Resawing on the shaper. Yes, it can be done.

[Jameel Abraham]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiJGmwyYK8k

No comment....:eek:

[Lou Pole]

Skydiving without a 'chute anyone? Or maybe ravenous croc wrestling? How about bungee jumping, only without the big rubber band?

[Randy Denby]

Dingdangit....why did I watch that? Especially this close to bedtime....now I'm gonna have nightmares:eek:

[Bill Huber]

I wonder if I could do that with my drill press ???? :D :D

[Ken Shoemaker]

That guy has some fuzz on the kiwis, OR, his head is up his......... Either condition usualy leads to a disaster in the shop. One thing is for sure, I don't care to see his next video... yuck!

[J.R. Rutter]

Labor laws there must boil down to: You get blood on my wood, you're fired!

[Dave Laird in NM]

And he still has all his digits?:eek:

And the sawbalde hasn't come apart yet?:eek:

The most unsafe thing that I have ever seen.:(

Maybe this guy needs a brain transplant?

[Jeff Raymond]

No tenemos OSHA aya?

[Lou Pole]

Sometimes It's better to Be a Little....

[Mike Spanbauer]

Holy Snikes... that would be a darwin application, however the accident waiting to happen is only going to make it hard to sign his name... not remove him from the gene pool..


Chlorine PLEASE!!!

ugh...

mike

[Mike Shoemaker]

Wow, I'm a rookie with old equipment, and that scares me.

[Greg Pavlov]

That had to be done in two passes, no?

[Michael Schwartz]

This is the most terrifying use of a shaper I have ever seen :eek:

Anybody want to pitch in and help buy this guy a re-saw bandsaw :rolleyes:

I just posted the same video on the EZ forum because I found it as a link off one of Dino's Videos.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Sometimes I long for the "good old days".....

When stupid people that ventured out of their caves got eaten by a saber tooth..
:D

*sigh*, now their modern counterparts put up video's and make movies (Jackass)..
;)

[Christof Grohs]

This could make for a great Red Violin part 2.....

http://www.impawards.com/1999/posters/red_violin_ver2.jpg

[Kent Fitzgerald]

That had to be done in two passes, no?
Yup. Good thing he didn't have a 24" blade handy, or he probably would have tried it in one pass. :eek:

[Jason Roehl]

It's all about what you're comfortable with. I'd do it. The safety/non-safety here is where your hands are, not in the setup itself. If you think that setup is intrinsically unsafe, you should quit driving a vehicle on U.S. roadways...

Jason

[Michael Schwartz]

This could make for a great Red Violin part 2.....

http://www.impawards.com/1999/posters/red_violin_ver2.jpg

I have actually seen that movie :rolleyes:

[Gary Keedwell]

I just saw this for the first time and think it is a great idea. Try thinking outside the box a little. The table is actually being used as the fence and the fence is actually the table. When you are sawing a tenon on a TS your relying on the fence to guide the board thru the blade. Riding the board on the table is more STABLE then a fence.
I do agree that his method for resawing needs a little refinement, but for sawing tenons I think it is a great idea. By the way: I have put blades in a vertical miller (Bridgeport) and sawed steel in half. The right speed and feed together with the right set-up and there is nothing unsafe about it. It sure beats driving in downtown Boston.:eek: :)
Gary K.

[Randy Denby]

I dunno...his cut-off is on top of the blade when completed. Still scares the crap out of me. As well as his fingers are behind the board and one misjudgement of how far out to hold that board will mean adios manos!

[Jason Roehl]

I'd do it like he did, maybe with a safety mark or piece of tape to mark blade depth. Now, if I were going to do a bunch of it, I'd probably make a push shoe with a kerf for the offcut to sit in. Kind of an 'F'-shaped affair, with the top of the 'F' on top of the offcut and the bottom horizontal of the 'F' going in the kerf to support the offcut and help hold the bottom piece down, and the leg of the 'F' giving sideways pressure into the (non-table) fence. Then, some sort of handle off to the side attached to the leg.

[Rod Sheridan]

The argument that the table on the shaper is the equivalent of the fence on the tablesaw is certainly stretching things.

Tenons on a table saw should be made with a tenon jig that rides in the mitre slot, or straddles the fence so that the work is prevented from moving closer to, or farther away from the blade.

Resawing with a circular blade requires a splitter, which wasn't used, a guard that wasn't used, and/or a stock feeder that doesn't require your fingers to be anywhere near it.

When I worked for a molding manufacturer, we had a big circular saw that did resaw work. 25 HP main motor, another drive motor, no fingers anywhere near the sawing end.

If that guy using the shaper to saw the wood had it pinch or bow, he could easilly have lost fingers or hands.

For us mere mortals, a band saw is far safer..........Rod.

[Greg Funk]

I agree with Jason.

Other than the back half of the blade being exposed this isn't really a lot different than using a tablesaw. I think there is less opportunity for a kickback than a tablesaw. The cutoff on top of the blade is not much different than a cutoff beside a blade on a tablesaw. The teeth on the side of the saw extend very little beyond the body of the blade so they cannot apply much force hence the cutoff sitting on top of the blade is easy to remove.

Greg

[Jason Roehl]

Rod, he was re-sawing. That generally means thin sheets, which won't be able to pinch the blade with any significant amount of force--too flimsy. Guards and splitters have their place and can be useful, but most of the time they are not necessary.

If I could afford a 25HP table saw, I'm sure I could afford a power-feeder, and would want one as well. The only reason for a motor that big would be to maintain a high feed rate that a human could not.

Jason

[Jason Beam]

I personally wouldn't want to fight the odds of a spinning blade AS WELL AS gravity at the same time.

Do what you want, it's yer shop.

I think it's irresponsible to advocate the safety of this operation on a forum that has a varied audience such as this one. Newcomers should not be encouraged (implied or otherwise) to perform an operation with so many factors to consider.

I contend that if the stock pinched the blade, no matter how thin, at the very least you're going to get wood thrown back at you. It may be small (splinters as the offcut explodes), it may be large (the whole piece), but you WOULD have wood coming back at you. That's a kickback. Add such a distraction onto having to contend with a very deep cut, gravity acting on the offcut piece, keeping your fingers out of the path of the blade ... I'll stick with a bandsaw.

It's not safe. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, so we can leave it at that. :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jason, I think you are 1/3 correct.

Yes, the thin resawn piece couldn't provide much pinch.

The other thicker piece, trapped between the table and the blade, that's a completely different issue. The piece could warp upwards, contact the trailing edge of the blade, and you have the classic kickback accident.

As for your comment about guards not being required, they aren't, except for the most awfull 3 milli-seconds of your woodworking career.

I've never been able to figure out which 3 milli-seconds I'm going to need the guards, so they have to stay on all the time the machinery is running.

Call me chicken, but you won't call me stumpy...........Rod.

[Gary Keedwell]

I personally wouldn't want to fight the odds of a spinning blade AS WELL AS gravity at the same time.

Do what you want, it's yer shop.

I think it's irresponsible to advocate the safety of this operation on a forum that has a varied audience such as this one. Newcomers should not be encouraged (implied or otherwise) to perform an operation with so many factors to consider.

I contend that if the stock pinched the blade, no matter how thin, at the very least you're going to get wood thrown back at you. It may be small (splinters as the offcut explodes), it may be large (the whole piece), but you WOULD have wood coming back at you. That's a kickback. Add such a distraction onto having to contend with a very deep cut, gravity acting on the offcut piece, keeping your fingers out of the path of the blade ... I'll stick with a bandsaw.

It's not safe. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, so we can leave it at that. :)
Please...nobody is advocating anything. All were doing is dissecting the milling operation that we seen in the video and commenting on it. Under the right conditions , sending stock thru a horizontal blade is just as safe as sending stock thru a vertical blade. It is done every day in a safe way. Picture a blade running like on a router table. Pushing the stock thru the blade with the assistance of a miter gage and feather boards holding the stock down on the table sounds reasonable to me. Try picturing your table saw doing the same operation tilted 90º. Would that look safe to you then?
GK

[Greg Funk]

Hi Jason, I think you are 1/3 correct.

Yes, the thin resawn piece couldn't provide much pinch.

The other thicker piece, trapped between the table and the blade, that's a completely different issue. The piece could warp upwards, contact the trailing edge of the blade, and you have the classic kickback accident.


When a board pinches the back of the blade on a tablesaw the result is generally that the board lifts up and rides on top of the blade which is travelling in the wrong direction at 100+MPH. Gravity holds the wood on top of the blade and you get a kickback. In this case if the wood moved away from the fence there is really nothing to hold it against the tips of the teeth so the board would just be flung away from the fence but it wouldn't kickback in the same way as a tablesaw.

Greg

Note: I am only making these arguments as an intellectual exercise for fun as I don't think any newcomers are realistically going to rush out and buy a shaper and sawblade to start resawing...I do think it is worthwhile to understand why and under what conditions accidents and kickbacks occur.

[Jason Beam]

Please...nobody is advocating anything. All were doing is dissecting the milling operation that we seen in the video and commenting on it. Under the right conditions , sending stock thru a horizontal blade is just as safe as sending stock thru a vertical blade. It is done every day in a safe way. Picture a blade running like on a router table. Pushing the stock thru the blade with the assistance of a miter gage and feather boards holding the stock down on the table sounds reasonable to me. Try picturing your table saw doing the same operation tilted 90º. Would that look safe to you then?
GK
Gary,

I don't disagree with your example of the router table. One piece in results in one piece out. In this video, though, there will be two pieces, one of which being forced onto the back of the blade by gravity. I don't see any way to prevent that unless you fashioned a riving knife sort of device to hold the offcut up off the blade.

Rod made a good point about the lower piece warping up into the blade. Who's to say the board won't cup, catching the ... hmm ... effectively the "top", i guess ... of the blade (rather than the back) - the teeth in that section of the blade COULD throw the board back at you, rather than away from the fence.

As an intellectual exercise, I agree with dissecting the physics involved. I don't think we always realize that we implicitly advocate positions by simply stating our opinions on various matters. Of course nobody's going to run out and buy a shaper and a saw blade ... but they might be led to wrongly equate other operations to this one due to their limited experience.

I'm glad that the conversation is coming from an objective level and that there are enough of us arguing both sides of the argument - which was really my original intent. I should have said that up front and I apologize for not doing so. My intention was to be sure that ALL sides are explored objectively and we're doing that. :)

[Lou Pole]

Every time something like this comes up there are always some people who say it's perfectly safe and that it's all about "what you are comfortable with". Anyone who would call an operation like this "safe" should stay away from machinery.

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary,

I don't disagree with your example of the router table. One piece in results in one piece out. In this video, though, there will be two pieces, one of which being forced onto the back of the blade by gravity. I don't see any way to prevent that unless you fashioned a riving knife sort of device to hold the offcut up off the blade.

Rod made a good point about the lower piece warping up into the blade. Who's to say the board won't cup, catching the ... hmm ... effectively the "top", i guess ... of the blade (rather than the back) - the teeth in that section of the blade COULD throw the board back at you, rather than away from the fence.

As an intellectual exercise, I agree with dissecting the physics involved. I don't think we always realize that we implicitly advocate positions by simply stating our opinions on various matters. Of course nobody's going to run out and buy a shaper and a saw blade ... but they might be led to wrongly equate other operations to this one due to their limited experience.

I'm glad that the conversation is coming from an objective level and that there are enough of us arguing both sides of the argument - which was really my original intent. I should have said that up front and I apologize for not doing so. My intention was to be sure that ALL sides are explored objectively and we're doing that. :)
Well, try this as a visual exercise: Go set up your table saw for a tenon operation. Mentally run the sequence of sending your stock thru the blade. Now mentally, or just physically turn your head to a horizontal position. Picture your self sending the stock through the blade with your TS turned 90º.....It doesn't seem right, does it?
Sometimes because you do something so many times it is hard for the mind to comprehend it another way. The first time I saw a part coming out of a new 5 axis CNC machine, I couldn't believe it. These complicated parts that normally have to go through the lathe department and to the milling and then back to the lathe are now done all at once.
You have spinning end mills and drills coming at the part in all directions. I guess my message is to reason and think it out before condemning it. If you think newcomers are going to emulate every thing they see, we might as well prohibit them from renting DVD's and watching TV.
Respectfully,
Gary

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

That is totally way cool~!!
Like Jason were I to do that I'd want a shoe. That guy must have grown up around that kind of equipment.

[Jason Beam]

Well, try this as a visual exercise: Go set up your table saw for a tenon operation. Mentally run the sequence of sending your stock thru the blade. Now mentally, or just physically turn your head to a horizontal position. Picture your self sending the stock through the blade with your TS turned 90º.....It doesn't seem right, does it?
Sometimes because you do something so many times it is hard for the mind to comprehend it another way. The first time I saw a part coming out of a new 5 axis CNC machine, I couldn't believe it. These complicated parts that normally have to go through the lathe department and to the milling and then back to the lathe are now done all at once.
You have spinning end mills and drills coming at the part in all directions. I guess my message is to reason and think it out before condemning it. If you think newcomers are going to emulate every thing they see, we might as well prohibit them from renting DVD's and watching TV.
Respectfully,
Gary
I'm not having trouble picturing it, really. I wouldn't equate your example since turning it 90 degrees does change it significantly in terms of the result of having gravity move parts in different directions than the other way.

I agree that it's easy to get trapped in what we've done "a thousand times" and then condemn something that doesn't fit what we're used to. If we condemned everything that was different from what we're used to, things wouldn't have progressed very far for us humans!

I also agree that thinking through the physics of any operation is the only way to truly understand what is and isn't safe about it. I still feel, though, that without some kind of devices that will combat the new direction of gravity, the operation is still inherently very unsafe. A riving knife and a push shoe of some kind may help, but I'm still not so sure that's as safe as cutting a tenon on a table saw. The offcut of the tenon would just sit there, not slip into the blade, after being freed. Move the force of gravity and you have to reassess the risk. It's going to make that offcut want to sit on that blade in the horizontal position. That's a factor that isn't an issue when cutting a tenon using a tenoning jig.

It could be MADE safe, I think. It'd take some devices that may not exist yet. You know ... ideally ... give me suction cups on that offcut ... that'd solve any issue i have with the offcut. As for the underside piece warping up into the blade ... a riving knife type device would help - the tough part is if the whole thing cups and rakes the top of the blade ... it should only add feed resistence, especially if you have feather boards holding it against the fence.

My position about the way the video shows it is the same: No way is that safe. Very few safety measures are being taken. It could be made quite a bit safer, though. So i don't rule it out as an operation, but it wouldn't be something I'd advise anyone do unless the above safety measures are in place. I think if I thought about it some more, I might find a few other things to add. Jason's shoe idea with a piece inside the kerf sounds very promising to me.


Edit: By "suction cups" I'm thinking of those lift-assist devices that help folks pick up heavy stuff. A lighter version of such a device probably exists that would help counteract the gravity pulling the piece down onto the blade.

[Gary Keedwell]

I don't want to belabor, but nobody really said that the video was an exercise in safety. I never insinuated that resawing in a horizontal position was safe. As a matter of fact, I do not resaw on my table saw taken a full cut all at once. When I resaw on the table saw I raise my blade a little less then half the stock and send it through twice...referencing the same side of stock against the fence and flipping the stock 180º. There is usually 1/8" left which I remove with a hand saw.
When I say I would do a tenon with the horizontal blade, I would do it like I normally do so there would be no cut-off to rocket at you.
Some how we seem to be comparing apples to oranges. There is no way I would resaw a piece of stock in one cut whether the blade is in a horizontal or vertical position. My only point was that it was just as safe to do certain operations, under the right conditions, whether the blade was vertical or horizontal.
I, in no way, condone what was in the video.
Gary

[Keith Beck]

And I thought ripping on a RAS was scary! I definitely don't have the cajones to try that! :eek:

Keith

[Michael Schwartz]

This setup is flat out dangerous. It is setups like this that give woodworking a reputaion as as being dangerous. If you don't think woodworking has that reputation ask any insurance company or just look at OSHA statistics. Woodworking can be safe and it is in the interest of the craft that everybody works to make it safe.

I don't know how long this guy has been getting away with that shaper setup, and for all I know he could go on getting away with it but the risk is still there. Any setup that induces any unnecessary risk is a bad idea.

I think the largest problem with this setup is the shear ammount of exposed blade. That could be solved pretty easlily and quickly with some plywood.

At the very least I would incorperate some featherboards into the setup and use a push-stick.

I don't have much experience with stock feeders but I am not sure if even mounting one is possible in this setup. You couldn't use it to feed from the top of the stock so it would need to feed from the side.

As far as tennon sawing with a method like this a shaper with a sliding table would be necessary. I belive that I have seen a setup using multiple blades mounted on the spindle to gang saw both cheeks at the same time.

[Jason Roehl]

Lou, I really didn't like the tone of your posts. I don't have time here to list all the machinery I've driven or operated, and I still have all my body parts. Often, that operation was without following what Big Brother deems to be good for my safety, rather following my own not-so-common sense and staying within what I knew to be my limits. Most of the scars on my body have come from non-powered tools. Maybe YOU couldn't use that setup safely, but I'm sure that I could. And that's all I ever said. No tool that I've ever encountered is inherently safe or unsafe--the user makes that difference.

[Randy Denby]

Experience is a darn good way to acquire knowledge. And limits are found sometimes across the wrong side of the line. Being careful and not pushing the limit line is the best approach. Everyone has different limits. Some say, my riding dirtbikes at age 50...and running away from 25yr olds btw:D , is crazy...but I ride well within my limits and my limits have drastically changed progressively since i started riding back in 1968. I still crash, but its usually in really difficult terrain and as such, slower speed. I think this guy in the video is in a woodworking equivelant to difficult terrain...for me. So my take is, this would be dangerous for even an experienced woodworker. Put guards,etc. on it, maybe lower the risk. I just dont have any fingers to spare.

[Brian Weick]

Nuts I tell ya, just plain nuts! :eek:
Brian

[John Shuk]

Not for me. I don't have the skills or experience to do that but I do things at work all the time that other people would never do for lack of experience.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Ok guys lets keep it nice and friendly, I had to delete several post which contained derogatory remarks towards other members. If something comes up that you do not like or agree with please.

1. Report the post to the moderators, refrain from directly indulging in an argument.
2. If you have disagreements about a procedure or technique, there are more than one ways to voice your opinion without being disrespectful.

[Gary Keedwell]

Well, now that everybody has calmed down, does anybody know where the video was produced? It was not in English, not that it means anything. For all we know it could have been some prodution sweat-shop in who knows what country. If it was something like that, then all this ranting was for naught.
I think most woodworkers ( not sweat-shop type characters) are well aware of safety issues. From Norm A. to other productions we view, safety is paramount because of the litigation factors that we all pay when someone is sued.
What I do like is when people talk about safety in a respectful tone without sarcasm and ridicule.:o :)
Gary K.

[Randy Denby]

I'll bet it was in mexico or south america somewhere, due to the spanish .I'm not versed enough to recognize the different lingo's. Thats kind of what makes this even scarier to me. As some of these guys will do a task, even if its beyond their means because their families hungry. I saw a video of an old man in Mexico carving figurines with nothing more than an old belt driven blade. No table, just a shaft, motor, belt and 7 1/4"blade. And the blade was bent :eek:

[Gary Keedwell]

I have re-read the whole thread and did not find one post where someone said this was " a safe shop practice". That being said, there was a post saying he would have no problem doing that operation that was in the video. The person who said this is an experienced person who, though I may disagree with him, he is still ONE person.
I disagree with a few people about certain subjects and practices, but I find the people here at the Creek pretty tolerant about differences and I respect that. Name-calling and boorish behavior is really juvenile and a real turn-off for me.
Gary

[Greg Funk]

I'll bet it was in mexico or south america somewhere, due to the spanish .I'm not versed enough to recognize the different lingo's. Thats kind of what makes this even scarier to me. As some of these guys will do a task, even if its beyond their means because their families hungry. I saw a video of an old man in Mexico carving figurines with nothing more than an old belt driven blade. No table, just a shaft, motor, belt and 7 1/4"blade. And the blade was bent :eek:
Likely from Brazil as I believe the text is Portugese.

I suspect there is very little in most South American workshops that North Americans would find acceptable from a safety standpoint.

That demonstration is nothing compared to how cedar shingles were sawn in sawmills all over the Northwest. Workers sawing shingles freehand with 3 or 4' diameter circular saws and little or no guards. Or for that matter just about anything a lumberjack did with an axe would scare most people.

Greg

[Peter Stahl]

That's more scarry than ripping with a radial arm saw and that scarred the heck out of me!

[Matt P]

All this leads me to the question: can safe resawing of small boards (5" wide x 1" thick) be done on the table saw? (I don't have a good bandsaw)

[Suanne Lippman]

When I do that on my TS I have to leave a 1/16" web between the two cuts or it gets really messy.
I would expect it to much worse there. How did he do it so smoothly?

[Jason Roehl]

All this leads me to the question: can safe resawing of small boards (5" wide x 1" thick) be done on the table saw? (I don't have a good bandsaw)

Yes. As Suanne said, you should leave a little bit between the two cuts that you finish off with a handsaw, then clean up with a handplane or a sander.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

When I do that on my TS I have to leave a 1/16" web between the two cuts or it gets really messy.
I would expect it to much worse there. How did he do it so smoothly?

At first I thought he did it in one pass~!!

Watching the video I wondered why the saw blade wasn't down near the table allowing for repeated passes making the same thickness stock.

[David Weaver]

Wouldn't that be even more dangerous?

It looks like it's operating pretty smooth when he does it, but that creates a lot of waste if he's doing that for a living.

Wouldn't catch me coming close to doing that without a power feeder, a jig to push the board through and plexi-glass wall. It looks like a recipe for holes in the garage door.

[Gary Keedwell]

Your right Cliff. I just watched it again and he was only taken 1/2 depth of the board. I have always taken 1/16" below center so when I did the other side (half) I would have a 1/8" total web left over that I would easily saw through with a hand saw. That's how I learned by watching Norm Abrens on TV about 17 years ago.
Maybe by taken the cut on top there is less chance of pinching...there fore less chance of kickback. DISCLAIMER: Before certain people get on their customary high horse...I do NOT endorse nor condone the video. My comments are meant in the spirit of analyzing and disecting various methods of woodworking procedures to futher explore the safety issues so important to our well being in persuing our beloved hobby or livihood. Gary K.;)

[Bill Wyko]

MAN I'm having visions of flying fingers across the room. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: I don't care what country you're in, with that contraption your fingers coud end up in another state. I found myself rubbing my hands like I was washing off acid. Words don't describe the feeling inside.:(

[Bill Wyko]

Bottom line. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. That's just plain dangerous on so many levels.(this is directed to the guy doing it in the video, not anyone here)

[Gary Keedwell]

Bottom line. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. That's just plain dangerous on so many levels.
Just curious Bill..Where is this battle and who is unarmed:confused: :confused: :)
Gary

[Bill Wyko]

Anyone thinking this is an acceptable use of this tool and the battle would be trying to justify it. Part of being good at what you do is knowing when someone (or sometning) else is the right person (or tool) for the job. If you want to do that you go right ahead. I'll be over at my bandsaw making my veneer.:D

[Gary Keedwell]

Anyone thinking this is an acceptable use of this tool and the battle would be trying to justify it. Part of being good at what you do is knowing when someone (or sometning) else is the right person (or tool) for the job. If you want to do that you go right ahead. I'll be over at my bandsaw making my veneer.:D
I reread the entire thread and found only one person who said they would use that set-up, and he was an experienced woodworker.. What I have seen is basically a very good discussion about woodworking methods and nobody advocating or condoning the OP's video.
On the contrary, I find this thread to be very informative and the posts, mostly, very thought out and respectful.:)
Gary:)

[John Twesten IV]

Here is the website where the original video came from. It is portuguese but the attached link is translated by google. Seems like they make some nice guitars.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://violamineira.blogspot.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://violamineira.blogspot.com/%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[Bill Wyko]

I reread the entire thread and found only one person who said they would use that set-up, and he was an experienced woodworker.. What I have seen is basically a very good discussion about woodworking methods and nobody advocating or condoning the OP's video.
On the contrary, I find this thread to be very informative and the posts, mostly, very thought out and respectful.:)
Gary:)
I'll agree with you there. I too have been a woodworker for almost 3 decades but the one thing to consider is that most injuries on a saw blade happen to experienced wood workers not beginners. The reason for this is that we get comfortable with the tools and take bigger risks. Because of that comfort level we get brave. One of my reasons for my opinion is that I've been bit by a router pretty bad and my opinion is use the right tool for the job or have it done by someone if the job is too dangerous. I would really hate to have to say "I told you so" to anyone that got tangled up with that contraption. I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone here. These are great people.
When I was a framer, we used to pin our guards up for easy use. One time I was cutting some joists and the bolt came out of the blade. It rattled around in the saw for about 1/2 a second then it came out, climbed my leg and my shirt and landed about 50 feet away. It put little pecker tracks up my leg and my chest where the blade just skimmed me all the way up. Imagine if that blade were to come off that spindle and go flying across the room. It wouldn't matter if your hands were in the right place if it was flying like a Frisbee and hit you in the gut. I guess I would have to say that I really like all the people here and I would hate to hear that someone tried that and it didn't work out as planned. Sorry if I offended anyone but I care about you guys.:)

[Bill Wyko]

Here is the website where the original video came from. It is portuguese but the attached link is translated by google. Seems like they make some nice guitars.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://violamineira.blogspot.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://violamineira.blogspot.com/%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
If you look at the picture of the group of guys. The one holding the guitar looks like he is missing the tip of his index finger.:eek: Some real nice work though.:)

[glenn bradley]

I am not a big fan of setting free floating objects on top of a surface that is spinning towards me. I also know a guy who used to work heavy equipment in sneakers. He's missing a couple toes and has lots of room in his boots now. To each their own as long as I'm not in the line of fire, eh?

[Lee Schierer]

Wow, I missed this thread the first time around. He set up was not something I would try. THe first pass was scary enough. He was taking off about 3/8" of material the piece he had below the blade looked good for posibly 2 or 3 more passes. Imagine how the last reasw on that piece will look....

[Steven Wilson]

Not a whole lot different than spinning a 250mm tennon cutter. Slap a tennon hood on that shaper and a jig to hold the wood (like doing arched raised panels) and it would be fairly safe. Use a sliding table shaper and it would be even better. I'll stick to the bandsaw and drum sander though.

[Brian Weick]

I personally wouldn't want to fight the odds of a spinning blade AS WELL AS gravity at the same time.

Do what you want, it's yer shop.

I think it's irresponsible to advocate the safety of this operation on a forum that has a varied audience such as this one. Newcomers should not be encouraged (implied or otherwise) to perform an operation with so many factors to consider.

I contend that if the stock pinched the blade, no matter how thin, at the very least you're going to get wood thrown back at you. It may be small (splinters as the offcut explodes), it may be large (the whole piece), but you WOULD have wood coming back at you. That's a kickback. Add such a distraction onto having to contend with a very deep cut, gravity acting on the offcut piece, keeping your fingers out of the path of the blade ... I'll stick with a bandsaw.

It's not safe. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, so we can leave it at that. :)
I COULD"T HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER!

[Gary Keedwell]

I COULD"T HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER!
Somehow.....I believe you:rolleyes: :o
GK

[Brian Weick]

Somehow.....I believe you:rolleyes: :o
GK


Why repeat it. - it is a waste of hard drive space on the SMC web server to me. As far as the Re-saw idea ~ that's incredibly dangerous, but if there are those that want to attempt this- all I can say is - " those are your fingers going into the blade" one mistake and it's off to a "re-sew finger job" instead of "re-sawing your wood" ,the wrong way mind you. I am very safety conscious Gary - I either do it write or I won't do it at all - period. No offense to you or the others that responded, I just hate for someone to get hurt instead of doing things the correct way and using the write tool for the write job, someone will loose their fingers or worse- I guarantee it ~ and for what- why try to reinvent the wheel - it really would be a bummer in a big way and I would really hate to see that happen. some good ideas , one in particular is the thread about the Lathe hooked up to the back tire of a Chevy truck ~ know that was ingenious and a brilliant idea!
Have a great weekend Gary
Brian:)

[Bill Wyko]

This has been a fun thread. The other thing to consider is that when he shuts off the motor, he's causing a flywheel effect which being under the spindle sander would have a reverse thrust effect. This in turn could loosen the bolt at the top which has only about 1/2" of thread. Now if that were to loose the nut it could rise up off the shaft and become a UFSB (unidentified flying saw blade.) Then your fingers are the last thing you need to worry about. Now it's headed for your throat.:eek: REALP RAGGY!!!

[Bill Wyko]

I was just thinking. Could you imagine the fine OSHA would impose on you if they walked in and saw that. I had OSHA in my shop a few years ago and they fined me 1400.00 bucks because we didn't have the guard on the TS and they tried to fine another 1400.00 bucks for not having a guard on my router table. I won the argument on the router that it's not a guard but a dust collector on the router and my dust collection was under the table. But the TS, I had no excuse.:mad: Not having an outlet switch cover was 250.00. and trust me, they have no mercy. I'd bet it would be 2k or more for that contraption.

What if his "C" clamp loosened on his fence?:cool:

[Gary Keedwell]

Why repeat it. - it is a waste of hard drive space on the SMC web server to me. As far as the Re-saw idea ~ that's incredibly dangerous, but if there are those that want to attempt this- all I can say is - " those are your fingers going into the blade" one mistake and it's off to a "re-sew finger job" instead of "re-sawing your wood" ,the wrong way mind you. I am very safety conscious Gary - I either do it write or I won't do it at all - period. No offense to you or the others that responded, I just hate for someone to get hurt instead of doing things the correct way and using the write tool for the write job, someone will loose their fingers or worse- I guarantee it ~ and for what- why try to reinvent the wheel - it really would be a bummer in a big way and I would really hate to see that happen. some good ideas , one in particular is the thread about the Lathe hooked up to the back tire of a Chevy truck ~ know that was ingenious and a brilliant idea!
Have a great weekend Gary
Brian:)
Gee Brian, take it easy :>) There's no reason to shout.(large letters).

Also, nobody said the video was safe. We were just throwing ideas out there and having a little fun. You know you don't have to stand on the barn roof and yell for people to hear you. LOL:D Although my wife says you do because she thinks I'm a little hard of hearing. I call it "selective hearing"
Anyways, it has been a good thread and somhow we managed to behave ourselves and not get kicked off.:p
Have a great weekend.......Go Pats:eek: :D :D
Gary

[Richard Link]

Heck, why use that wimpy fence-thingy.... Just push the board through free hand you manly man.

Guards...we don't need no guards....

Clearly, the guard was removed just to improve visibility for purposes of this instructional video on home techniques for amputation...

[Mickey Finn]

Hi, I'm new here, so pardon me if I sound a little contrarian... actually, it's my first post!

I agree with the previous poster, these guys are Portugese or Brazilian, best as I can tell. They make guitars. Here's their website. http://violamineira.blogspot.com/

Other than that, and other than the obvious danger, I was very impressed with the efficiency of that contraption. From what I understood from the subtitles, the guy pulled a 3mm thick sheet from what looks like a 4/4-12 inch board. That video was the second pass... you can see at the beginning that the blade isn't set up for full width and he already ran it through the other side. So all together, he accomplished that move in about a total of 30 seconds, if he was taking his time. It's obvious that that wasn't the first time they did that, they've probably been doing it that way for a decade or more.

My point is that it seems to work exceedingly well in the hands of an experienced woodworker, even without the safeguards.

And I ponder why a tool company doesn't look at this video and say, "Hey, that's a good idea, we could make one of these things with all the proper blade guards and safety equipment, and if we did, it'd be like printing money."


My 2 cents.

[Gary Keedwell]

Welcome aboard Mickey:)

Actually a horizontal cutting blade is not new to the machine shop crowd, but it is not something a woodworker would come across. When someone sees something for the first time, it sometimes can be rather shocking. The first time they strapped a guy in a rocket, they thought it was nonsense. And someone had to be the first one to go on a roller coaster.
The way that video was set up...it was a little shy of safe, but with a little imagination and innovation...it could be a very sensible operation.IMNSHO;)
Gary K.

[Warren Clemans]

It isn't so different from the Lucas sawmill, really. With the mill, the blade/head moves and the log stays put, but both have a spinning horizantal blade doing the dirty work. Of course, the sawmill lets the operator take cover far from the blade. No fingers at risk. My only point is that there is some precedent for this technique in woodworking.

[Mickey Finn]

Welcome aboard Mickey:)

Actually a horizontal cutting blade is not new to the machine shop crowd, but it is not something a woodworker would come across. When someone sees something for the first time, it sometimes can be rather shocking. The first time they strapped a guy in a rocket, they thought it was nonsense. And someone had to be the first one to go on a roller coaster.
The way that video was set up...it was a little shy of safe, but with a little imagination and innovation...it could be a very sensible operation.IMNSHO;)
Gary K.


That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! :)

"Innovation Drives Creation"

Don't know if anyone's ever said that before, but if not, you can quote me! ;)

[Michael Schwartz]

At the very least with this setup I would screw the peice of wood to a much larger peice of MDF and attach handles to it to push it through securely keeping my hands far from the blade.

[Mickey Finn]

At the very least with this setup I would screw the peice of wood to a much larger peice of MDF and attach handles to it to push it through securely keeping my hands far from the blade.

I'd make sure that the Jesus Nut on the arbor was loc-tited and torqued with a breaker bar! :D

Again, it's an intriguing concept. Can anyone confirm that it's a shaper they're using? Seems like a heck of a big table from what I'm used to seeing, shaper-wise.

[Gary Keedwell]

Naw..you can make the arbor to have left-handed threads..then it won't loosen up. It might get tighter.:p
GK

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Aren't most TS blades rated for 4000-5000 RPM versus 8,000 - 10,000 of shaper?

[Mike Golka]

Lets put this to rest, Can you spell "Stupid Idea"!! It's akin to welding without a shield, it can be done, but.....

[Gary Keedwell]

Lets put this to rest, Can you spell "Stupid Idea"!! It's akin to welding without a shield, it can be done, but.....
Maybe when they invented welding they had to invent the shield.:rolleyes: The concept of horizontal sawing is not new..but maybe we could put it to good use by inventing a safe method to do it.:)
Gary K

[James Carmichael]

I should probably stay out of the fray, but:

I have to agree with Jason, it's all about what you're comfortable with. I bet the guy in the video has sawn thousands of board feet of veneer this way. It's very judgemental to dismiss him as stupid. In an impoverished country (I have no idea where he resides), that may be the only method available to him for cutting veneers. I bet he regularly turns out work that most of us could only dream about.

The idea of driving a car in heavy traffic at 200 mph scares the bejeebies out of me, but for a Nascar driver, it's a day at the office.

I don't think anyone is going to try sawing veneers on a shaper after viewing the video.

[Jason Roehl]

Ah yes, opinions posted online without any supporting evidence, experience or experimentation ALWAYS puts things to rest...

He's making do with what he has in a creative way. In my opinion, that's ingenious, not stupid.

I would contend that a chainsaw is far more dangerous--cutting into unknown wood, greater kerf size, less stable platform (no fence, less-than-ideal work environment, potentially slippery footing).

Again, your biggest safeguard is between your ears--it needs to keep your fingers out of the blade. The point in any power tool operation is to do many things that minimize your risk, so if you forget one or one goes wrong, there are no problems. In essence, it's "layers of safety".

OSHA says I should be tying off a ladder the first time I climb it. If I did that in my business, I wouldn't get anything done. Do I rely on my skill and experience to keep me safe on a ladder? You bet. I'll even climb slightly unstable ladders as there are many situations that call for it. The instructions always call for you to use it on a "firm, level surface". Do you know how many houses in this country have that all the way around them? Not many. So, I do other things that contribute to safety--first and foremost is that I keep my center of gravity between the rails and my feet at the edges of the rungs with my knees wedged and my shins against the next rung up.

I've had an accident with a gun before, but because I was following the general safety precautions (pointed in a safe direction, assume it's loaded--I knew it was), the round that went off went harmlessly into my gravel driveway and landed a couple inches away. The risky part was that I had my finger on the trigger (had to) to de-cock it, but the hammer slipped out of my fingers.

BTW, the artisans are in Brazil. There was a yahoo.br e-mail addy on their site, and the Portuguese is of a Brazilian flavor (less formal than European Portugese).

It's about like the myth of the danger of using a cellphone at a gas station, or ripping with a radial arm saw, or ...

You just have to pay attention to what you are doing at all times. If you can't do that, then don't use that tool.

[Gary Keedwell]

I should probably stay out of the fray, but:

I have to agree with Jason, it's all about what you're comfortable with. I bet the guy in the video has sawn thousands of board feet of veneer this way. It's very judgemental to dismiss him as stupid. In an impoverished country (I have no idea where he resides), that may be the only method available to him for cutting veneers. I bet he regularly turns out work that most of us could only dream about.

The idea of driving a car in heavy traffic at 200 mph scares the bejeebies out of me, but for a Nascar driver, it's a day at the office.

I don't think anyone is going to try sawing veneers on a shaper after viewing the video.
I agree with James 100%. The rush to judge just blows my mind. You have to walk a mile in their shoes ( bare feet?) to give an unbiased answer. This is a Nation that spends billions on "diets" to lose pounds that people in impovished countries wish they had.
Gary K.

[Brian Weick]

Gee Brian, take it easy :>) There's no reason to shout.(large letters).

Also, nobody said the video was safe. We were just throwing ideas out there and having a little fun. You know you don't have to stand on the barn roof and yell for people to hear you. LOL:D Although my wife says you do because she thinks I'm a little hard of hearing. I call it "selective hearing"
Anyways, it has been a good thread and somehow we managed to behave ourselves and not get kicked off.:p
Have a great weekend.......Go Pats:eek: :D :D
Gary


You to Gary,:)
We lost to New England 2 weeks ago- The Buffalo Bills ~ We are out 9 starters, I think the season is looking more and more grim for us. I have to say New England is a well oiled machine- great players and great play calling ~ that is were we lack ~ in both areas.
The font size- next time I will be more careful about that. I just hate to see someone try that and then end up in the hospital - I don't even want to think about what that accident would look like. That's just my opinion Gare, Anyways ~ you have a great weekend. No Sunday football for me- Monday night against Dallas- and it doesn't look good.:(
Brian

[Bill Wyko]

Naw..you can make the arbor to have left-handed threads..then it won't loosen up. It might get tighter.:p
GK
Actually Gary, when you shut off the blade in the way he is using the rubber spindle, would loosen up from the reverse inertia very easily. The blade will grab on the rubber spindle and in turn loosen the bolt. The twist in the rubber spindle acts like a wrench. If you try it, let me know what your comfort level is while that blade is smiling back at you.:D

[Bill Wyko]

Did everyone miss the 2nd link where the group of guys are holding the guitar and the guy with his hand around the neck of the guitar seem to be missing the top knuckle of his index finger. I could be wrong, but.....:eek: :D

[Gary Keedwell]

Actually Gary, when you shut off the blade in the way he is using the rubber spindle, would loosen up from the reverse inertia very easily. The blade will grab on the rubber spindle and in turn loosen the bolt. The twist in the rubber spindle acts like a wrench. If you try it, let me know what your comfort level is while that blade is smiling back at you.:D
No time to look again at video...(wifey is calling me to go shopping:eek: ) But I have used a blade in a horizontal position and cut thru large chunks of stainless steel with only a nut on a left-handed arbor and it never came loose. :) Has your table saw nut ever came loose?...that is a left-hand threaded nut.....Maybe Im not following you correctly.:confused:
Gary

[Bill Wyko]

No time to look again at video...(wifey is calling me to go shopping:eek: ) But I have used a blade in a horizontal position and cut thru large chunks of stainless steel with only a nut on a left-handed arbor and it never came loose. :) Has your table saw nut ever came loose?...that is a left-hand threaded nut.....Maybe Im not following you correctly.:confused:
Gary
No, but I posted earlier about a Skillsaw blade coming off and it was a lefty thread. In a normal application it should never loosen but that rubber sanding spindle is a torsion motion in that application. I've had my spindle sander loosen many times. In the video that guy is not missing a finger but in the still pics in the 2nd link, one guy seems to be. He's also using "C" clamps to hold the fence. That opens up a whole other can of worms in that application.
(This thread has been fun:D ) I don't think any of us are going to run out and do this on purpose.:o

[Jason Roehl]

You're right, Bill...I don't have a shaper, so I can't go try it...

[Greg Funk]

In a normal application it should never loosen but that rubber sanding spindle is a torsion motion in that application. I've had my spindle sander loosen many times.
I don't know what a 'torsion motion' is but even if the nut came off why would the blade go anywhere. I am assuming it is mounted onto some type of spindle.

From their web site it appears that they make quite a few nice guitars and use quality wood imported from Italy. I didn't get the impression that it was some third world sweatshop with workers losing their appendages.

Despite the apprehension of many on this board I wouldn't be surprised if they had never had a serious accident using that setup.

Greg

[Gene O. Carpenter]

You think that guy did something stupid, check out the miter saw in this guy's ad..:eek: :eek: :eek: AND:eek: , and some 8Ball will buy it..

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/tls/441580942.html

[Mickey Finn]

Lets put this to rest, Can you spell "Stupid Idea"!! It's akin to welding without a shield, it can be done, but.....

Funny, but I initially read that as "wedding without a shield".

Ah, it's nice to be single. (most of the time).


:D

[Greg Peterson]

Was it the text that was a problem? :D

I couldn't read the text. Was it in Spanish?