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George Elston
10-03-2007, 3:30 PM
I've been trying to get the business from a local hospital to mark their surgical equipment, and the going is slow, Comities! BUT,the medical equipment guys just asked if I could engrave ID tags for all their hospital equipment. A corporation I worked for a couple of years ago issued metal ID plates for all their permanent inventory, that were small (1"x2") aluminum plates, cermark engraved, on a peel off backing sheet, with a glue that so strong putting the wrong tag on a piece of equipment meant changing the master inventory cause you couldn't get the tag off without destroying it. Does anybody know of a supplier for these tags, or something similar.

Thanks

Mike Null
10-03-2007, 4:48 PM
George

The company you want is Johnson Plastics. The material is Alumamark. What you saw before was likely not cermark.

This Alumamark label is tough stuff and after 24 hours the 3M adhesive is good enough that you will destroy the label if you want to remove it.

I've had it tested at Allied Healthcare engineering labs here in St. Louis and it passed all their tests without problem.

Stephen Beckham
10-03-2007, 7:02 PM
George - slightly OT - but do you have any information about CERMARK (or others) being safe for marking surgical tools? I've got a fella here that wanted a bunch marked, but he was looking at a Fibermark system so he wouldn't run into chemical issues being on surgical tools...

Thoughts?

George Elston
10-04-2007, 9:57 AM
Thanks Mike, I found it in the Johnson catalog. One question though, I don't do much metal work and don't have a shear or brake, but it looks like the .005 material could be cut with a straight edge and a mat knife. Am I wrong?

Stephen, all the info I can find seems to say cermark is ok, perhaps we can get some other input. Actually I have the HPDFO lens and am trying to get them to let me a test run for free, it will give them samples and I will get an average time since to mark metal I have to run at 1-3% speed (not fast). However, it is my understanding that cermark once lasered is chemically inert. More input would be appreciated. The advantage of cermark is that the metal IS NOT etched, and there is not chance for bacteria to gain a foot hold. If I can do some samples I plane on offering both options, but from all I can find the cermark is preferable. I did find a disclaimer on the ULS site that says they accept NO RESPONSIBILITY for marking medical equipment, and go on to state that using the equipment to mark medical equipment will void my warranty, so the timing with the comities may work out. i.e. they make a decision about the time my first year is up. But it would be a VERY lucrative gig.

In the meantime I see no problem making stick on ID tags, other than cutting them.

Thanks Guys

Mike Null
10-04-2007, 11:34 AM
George

The .005" can be cut with scissors but you can probably get labels already made. If need be contact Horizons and they can give you the name of a distributor who has the die cut size you want. http://www.horizonsisg.com/products/alumamark.asp

Bill Cunningham
10-04-2007, 10:59 PM
George

The company you want is Johnson Plastics. The material is Alumamark. What you saw before was likely not cermark.

This Alumamark label is tough stuff and after 24 hours the 3M adhesive is good enough that you will destroy the label if you want to remove it.

I've had it tested at Allied Healthcare engineering labs here in St. Louis and it passed all their tests without problem.

Mike; I have some alumamark with that with adhesive (MP60?) what is that stuff designed to stick to? I've had some wood, and plastics that won't accept it.. Because I only had one sheet of the adh. backed, I simply pealed the backing, and put two sided tape on it.. Does it have to sit under a weight or something?

Mike Null
10-05-2007, 12:32 AM
Bill

As I recall the number we tested was 3M #467MP. The people at Allied were very happy and Horizons tells me that's the same stuff they use on their military work. I used the same tape on an industrial job for parts that are shipped all over the world. (this was on labels supplied by the customer)

I used something a couple of weeks ago though, not sure of the number, that was very disappointing.

George Elston
10-05-2007, 11:43 AM
I have used Rowmark Flexibrass with 467MP adhesive and was disappointed with it's adhesion. Not that it doesn't stick, just that you can pull it off if you try. I just dug out a reject from a job and stuck it to a metal plate, I will give it 24 hrs and see how it does. Admittedly, in the past I did not give it a full day to cure before giving it a yank. More info tomorrow.

Mike Null
10-05-2007, 1:01 PM
I wonder if it's only for metals.

Brian Robison
10-05-2007, 1:59 PM
My Alumamark is about .025 thick not .005

Chris McDonald
10-05-2007, 2:25 PM
I have used Rowmark Flexibrass with 467MP adhesive and was disappointed with it's adhesion. Not that it doesn't stick, just that you can pull it off if you try. I just dug out a reject from a job and stuck it to a metal plate, I will give it 24 hrs and see how it does. Admittedly, in the past I did not give it a full day to cure before giving it a yank. More info tomorrow.

476MP is a Pressure Sensitive Adhesive. To activate it properly you have to have a clean surface and use a application roller to 'laminate' it to the surface. If you don't use that much pressure then it will not adhere well.

Chris

George Elston
10-05-2007, 10:22 PM
Well it makes a difference when you follow directions. After only 12 hours I am willing to say this stuff is STUCK ON. Clean metal surface, applied pressure, left it alone. 467MP solid as a rock. Now as long as my wife doesn't look under her desk and wonder why there are old tags stuck to the metal back I'll be OK. Or maybe I can get a blade behind and lever it off.

Sean Weir
10-08-2007, 5:30 PM
Hello George,

The marks made with the CerMark LMM-6000 are chemically inert after lasering. We currently have several customers who are using the product to mark surgical instruments. The markings will survive autoclaving and are resistant to the cleaners and disinfectants used in a hospital setting.

I would caution you on obtaining this job if you want to use CerMark. Be sure you mark a series of test instruments for the customer first. Make sure they test the markings to be sure they will meet their requirements. We have found that the types of steel used in these instruments can vary from hospital to hospital. The powers settings used can work in one application, but may not work in another. Some hospitals may not buy all of their instruments from one supplier, so power settings for a good mark may change from supplier to supplier.

I'm sure you are right when you say this could be a very lucrative job. The push for tracking instruments is very strong, given the potential costs of malpractice litigation when instruments are "lost". Hopefully I helped answer your questions, if you need anything else please feel free to ask.

Regards,

Sean

Brad Monson
10-08-2007, 10:58 PM
MetalCraft has a variety of machine ID tags available.
www.idplate.com (http://www.idplate.com) 1-800-437-5283

Brad

Rodne Gold
10-08-2007, 11:59 PM
We mark titanium socket and ball replacements with cerdec or whatever its called these days.
We have been marking now for over 5 years with no comebacks. We also have written to the co supplying the joints , absolving us of any responsibility or laibilty whatsoever due to marking - when they got that , they decided to have the markings exhuastively tested.
They had it tested by our local Bureau of Standards for any residual toxicity or breakdown while in human tissue and none was found.
It seems the mark is impervious to just about anything and it doesnt break down and isnt a danger.

We also just competed a 15000 piece cutlery set for Parliamnet here , and that job has turned into a nightmare. Initially we did samples for testing and all was ok , we ran the job and all looked ok , cept now a month later , markings are coming off on certain items , mainly the large knives (all on end of handle) and on investigation into this , it appears the knife handle is not the same metal as everything else and requires 2x the power. The production knives were different from the samples we got. We gave a written undertaking that we would repair or make good any markings that came off within a year - prior to us doing the production run. This has now come to bite us on our a..s , as we are receiving shipments of knives and have to use a satinising brush to remove the remmanents of the old markings , then buff the handle and clean it , re-apply the marking compound and then re engrave at 2x the original cycle time - a major amount of work. Initially we thought perhaps the mass of the handle was wicking away the laser "heat" , but this wasnt so.
I really have no recourse but to do this to make good - albeit it is not my fault as production was different to samples.
We should have run more samples on production , we have had this before , especially promo items from China where samples and production metallurgy differ and should have learnt.
This is not that isolated , we undertook to do a massive mark on a stainless steel tray , did sampling , got cycle times and tested for durability - all was fine. When the order was delivered to us , something like 5000 trays , the vendor of the trays had decided to import from India instead of using the supplier of the trays we sampled. The trays were buckled , full of gouges , metal wasnt the same and we couldnt even get a decent mark with cycle times at 3x original. We eventually passed the job and ended up with a very upset customer in that he had paid for the trays etc and no one would brand em (wouldnt work on a yag, size was too big for its marking field and the black the customer wanted couldnt be obtained by anyone here with a yag) He basically blamed us for non performance and I couldn't get it thru his skull that his penny pinching was to blame. The worst of all was the fact that he wanted us to go ahead , with a less than satisfactory mark , at the same price , and try to palm it off on his customer who was a VERY upmarket ad agency representing a premium brand of whiskey. We would never have got paid for that job as he would never have got paid for the shoddy and inferior products he wished to put out.

So the moral is - even if you DO do samples , insist on one further sample when you actually get the production volumes of the item. Select the new sample at random from the batch and test it big time after.
We use a scotch pad to test our metal markings , if a scotch pad leaves the marking and makes the metal matte after 20-30 rubs , we are pretty confident the marking is good.
At the end of it all , we really only mark stainless steel , we have not had good results in terms of durability on nickle , chrome and other "shiny" metals - brass silver and copper are a total waste of time as the use of abraisive cleaners/polishes like brasso and silvo remove the marking over time.

pete hagan
10-10-2007, 1:39 PM
I was waiting to find my catalog that I get every quarter. Seton www.seton.com (http://www.seton.com) has metal plates, labels and the like if you are still looking for info.

Pete