Real Noob Questions

[Anchor Sarslow]

Hello All,

I am very new to this forum and over the last several days of waiting to get approved for posting, I have done a lot of reading and learned more than I could have hoped for in such a short time. I want to thank all of you for being good enough to share your experiences so people like myself do not have to spend all of our time learing through trial and error..

My questions.. and they are noobish.

1. Do bench chisels typically have a double beveled edge? (one sided with 2 different degrees of bevel)

I have been trying to start making dovetails and went and bought a set of cheap Marples chisels from the local HD. The only chisel that had any kind of edge to it was the 1/4" so I have been using it a lot. I need to sharpen all of them.. and they look to have a double bevel. I have no experience with these tools. and want to try to do this correct the first time.

2. Any good literature or online explainations on good sharpening techniques?

3. As I tend to be overly purist and want to be a true neanderthal (read as cheap too) I intend to do all sharpening on stones and papers. However I do know that on occassion I am going to need a bench grinder or my sander to do some re-beveling. SO>. can I take a standard bench grinder ( Montgomery Wards circa 1960's 3400 rpm about) and put a dimmer switch on it to slow it down?

I will be back with more questions eventually, but think I shoud so a few more searches first.

Thank you all.

[Zahid Naqvi]

This should get you started.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13599

As for the grinder, many people use regular grinders without slowing it down. You just have to be careful not to burn/overheat the edge. OTOH you can use a low grit 50/70 sandpaper (scary sharp) for the primary bevel adjustments. It will be slower but safer for the edge.

Sharpening is a science in itself, look for sharpening books in your local library.

[Casey Gooding]

Be careful with that "cheap" comment. You should know, if you choose the Galoot route, you'll need good tools. Good tools cost money!!!!
If you use cheap tools, you won't get the same results as you would with quality tools. Even if you decide to go with older tools, you'll have to spend time, in some cases lots of time, tuning them up for use.
That being said, there is, I believe, a satisfaction from using quality hand tools that one can't get with the help of a "tailed apprentice".

[Anchor Sarslow]

OK, by the thread I know I phrased my question wrong..

In sharpening.. the end is beveled at least one and then a small edge bevel is added, is this correct? OR are chisels sharpened with just a single angle.. like 20-25 or 30 degrees.. Or are those numbers referring to the small bevel at the very tip? That is what I am asking, are there 2 bevels at the sharpened tip or just one?



I think I am going to try the dimmer switch.. will let you all know if it works for me.. right now I have no idea when I am going to burn the end of the chisel so it may be better for me to try to slow it down..

Any suggestions for a good holder for stone sharpening?

By cheap.. well I have long ago found out about buying "cheap" tools.. and I know that buying a good set of chisels, saws, stones and planers will set me back about as much as buying an electrified shop.. However, I am dealing with some space constraints as well.. shop is about 12 x 30 or so.. is essaentially a single car stall with little side room in the back of my concrete flored pole barn.. Unheated and in Minnesota to boot.. gonna be tough in the winter. I am thinking that the mice will be the only ones working in my shop come January.

[Casey Gooding]

The main bevel on a chisel will typically be around 25 degrees. Maybe five degrees more or less, depending on what you are using them for. For the sake of easy, figure out what your chisels are ground at now, keep them at that angle until you figure out if you need a finer angle for paring, or a steeper angle for chopping.
As far as microbevels. If your main angle is 25 degrees, your secondary bevel will typically be 2-5 degrees higher than that. Keep in mind, that's if you grind the bevels flat, by hand. If you use a machine grinder, it will produce a hollow grind, which won't need a secondary bevel as you will only be honing a small are at the front and back of the chisel tip.

If you'll allow me to get on my high horse for a moment. Please don't call them planers. That's what the big, noisy machines are (or, the person actually doing the planing).

Hope this helps.

[Anchor Sarslow]

The main bevel on a chisel will typically be around 25 degrees. Maybe five degrees more or less, depending on what you are using them for. For the sake of easy, figure out what your chisels are ground at now, keep them at that angle until you figure out if you need a finer angle for paring, or a steeper angle for chopping.
As far as microbevels. If your main angle is 25 degrees, your secondary bevel will typically be 2-5 degrees higher than that. Keep in mind, that's if you grind the bevels flat, by hand. If you use a machine grinder, it will produce a hollow grind, which won't need a secondary bevel as you will only be honing a small are at the front and back of the chisel tip.

If you'll allow me to get on my high horse for a moment. Please don't call them planers. That's what the big, noisy machines are (or, the person actually doing the planing).

Hope this helps.

Thank you for clarifying that for me...

LOL.. ok.. Hand Plane then?

[Zahid Naqvi]

Anchor, from your second post it seems you are referring to the microbevel, something that is created as a result of the honing process. The rule of thumb I follow is: handplane blades primary bevel 30-secondary 35, chisels 25-30. I am sure there are more refinements done to edges depending on their use (mortising chisels, paring chisels, scrub planes blades etc.). But I have a very limited set of hand planes and chisels and these angles work for them.

[Glenn Madsen]

The other folks have answered well. Let me say something about the grinder.

I don't think your dimmer will do what you want. It might, but I don't think so. What I would recommend is getting to a Woodcraft or similar supplier, and replacing the wheel with a white or pink, more friable material. You'll be better able to control the grind, and less likely to burn the edge of your chisels, etc., when you do the rough shaping, nick removal, etc. Budget no more than $30, IIRC. And don't worry too much about the speed. You can quench your blade in water periodically, to keep it cool, if you're worried.

Those Marples are a good, basic chisel. A set still hangs around in my shop, and gets the job done on stuff that doesn't need the high dollar spread made elsewhere.

I will make a comment on the 'cheap' notion. Stuff builds up over time. It's not like dropping most of $2k on a cabinet saw, but when you start looking at what has accumulated in the tool shrine, the numbers for handplanes, or chisels, or fancy saws, or layout tools, or other bling really adds up. It doesn't have to. Not if you have any self control. I wish I had some of that.:o

[Mike Henderson]

Unless the motor on your grinder is something quite unusual, a dimmer won't work to slow it down and could fry the motor.

The reason is that your motor is likely an induction motor. Induction motors run at a speed related to the number of poles and the frequency of the line (like 60 hz). 60 hz is equal to 3,600 RPM but an induction motor works by having the rotor run at an RPM that is slightly less than the line frequency (plus an allowance for the number of poles). That's why most single phase induction motors run at something like 3,450 RPM (for a two pole motor) or 1,725 RPM (for a four pole motor).

The only way to slow down an induction motor is to change the line frequency - and there's even problems there because of the centrifugal switch and heating because the fan is running too slow.

If you need to slow down a single phase induction motor, the only safe way to do it is by using different size pulleys - as is done on many drill presses.

Mike

[Anchor Sarslow]

Glenn and Mike, thank you much for that information. Of all the things I am not .. electrician is one of them. My father was a master and al lI picked up from him was not to touch both leads at the same time.

Zahid,

I appreciate that answer, that IS what I was looking for. Last questioin, is the micro-bevel required? I know it will improve the sharpness some. but I dont know how much.

Thanks again all.

[Scott Rollins]

I use the "scary sharp" (sandpaper from Rockler) method on my chisels. I also use a Veritas MKII honing gauge (about $50-60). The whole set-up is available for less than $75. THe paper wears quickly, but a chisel or iron for a plane can be sharpened so well that if you choose to test the sharpening by shaving your arm hair--you will be bald.
The Veritas MKII allows you to set the angle very precisely and in a single clamping you can hone the back and micro bevel.

[Marcus Ward]

Anchor -

If you want a way to grind primary bevels without burning the blade go to Harbor Freight and get one of their cheap 29.95 belt sanders (on sale right now - I just got one) and flip it over and use that to grind the bevel. You'll have to rig some way to keep your angle right or invest in a jig (8$ at grizzly) to hold it at the right angle.

OR

You can heed Smalser's advice and learn to sharpen the bevel by hand, thus developing a kinesthetic sense of what the proper angle feels like and allowing you to eyeball (handball?) angles without the aid of any modern gimcrackery.

I split the difference and practice with some but use the belt sander for the stuff I'm working with until I'm good enough at doing it by hand.

Enjoy, whatever it is you do.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Anchor, the primary purpose of the micro bevel is to create a mirror sharp edge only at the very end of the chisel or blade. This way when you have to re-hone the edge you only work on the last 1/64" or so. That's the only part that matters any way. The rest of the bevel, no matter how smooth and shiny, will have no impact on the cutting ability of the chisel. Slowly and gradually as you repeatedly hone the edge this micro bevel will get wider, when it gets around 1/4th of the whole bevel it's time to reestablish the primary bevel.

It doesn't really improve the sharpness, just that it significantly reduces the amount of work needed to hone the edge as you are only working on an area 1/64" wide vs the complete bevel around 1/2" or so (depending on the thickness of the chisel)

[Robert Rozaieski]

Anchor, the primary purpose of the micro bevel is to create a mirror sharp edge only at the very end of the chisel or blade. This way when you have to re-hone the edge you only work on the last 1/64" or so. That's the only part that matters any way. The rest of the bevel, no matter how smooth and shiny, will have no impact on the cutting ability of the chisel. Slowly and gradually as you repeatedly hone the edge this micro bevel will get wider, when it gets around 1/4th of the whole bevel it's time to reestablish the primary bevel.

It doesn't really improve the sharpness, just that it significantly reduces the amount of work needed to hone the edge as you are only working on an area 1/64" wide vs the complete bevel around 1/2" or so (depending on the thickness of the chisel)

Anchor, what Zahid said ;) ! Just to propose another point of view, however, hollow grinding also acomplishes the same thing. After grinding, you only hone the very edges (let's call them arris and heel) of the bevel. I like this method because you still only hone a small area each time you hone (until the arris and heel converge), and, having two points of the bevel resting on the stone (as opposed to a single point with the microbevel method) helps to register and steady the blade at a consistent angle when honing freehand (i.e. without a honing guide to hold the angle for you). When the arris and heel of the bevel converge in the middle, it's time to regrind.

Check out the Tools for Working Wood web site for a great tutorial on freehand sharpening. The tutorial still uses a micro bevel, however, I've found the use of the microbevel un-necessary when hollow grinding and I think it only complicates freehand honing since it's hard to maintain a consistent bevel angle on the very arris of the bevel without a second registration point (i.e. heel).

[Anchor Sarslow]

OK, I have managed to clean up and polish one of my fathers old 1" (looks like an old plastic handled Buck) chisels.

I can about see myself in the reflection and can shave arm hair. Thank you all.

I used my 21" sander to fix the main bevel and did the rest on a single stone and several grades of wet o dry. and last on a very old smooth stone of my dads for polishing the micro.. Took me about an hour.

Now to find something made of wood to try it out on.

[Marcus Ward]

Dining room table? :D

[Anchor Sarslow]

Thanks all. I have successfully sharpened an old 1" chisel. I can almost see myself on the back and can shave arm hiar with it.. Now to find a chunk of wood to make something out of it with. I am thinking Walnut. I have lots of litle pieces of that.

[Jim Koepke]

Anchor, the primary purpose of the micro bevel is to create a mirror sharp edge only at the very end of the chisel or blade. This way when you have to re-hone the edge you only work on the last 1/64" or so. That's the only part that matters any way. The rest of the bevel, no matter how smooth and shiny, will have no impact on the cutting ability of the chisel. Slowly and gradually as you repeatedly hone the edge this micro bevel will get wider, when it gets around 1/4th of the whole bevel it's time to reestablish the primary bevel.

It doesn't really improve the sharpness, just that it significantly reduces the amount of work needed to hone the edge as you are only working on an area 1/64" wide vs the complete bevel around 1/2" or so (depending on the thickness of the chisel)

I see others have given good answers to your questions.

New plane and chisel blades almost always need a few minutes of work to get them sharp.

As far as a micro bevel goes, I do not use them. I have seen lots of articles on them and the only thoughts to using them is from an article in Fine Woodworking about putting a back bevel on plane blades to give a steeper angle for working in figured wood.

A micro beveled blade will remain sharp some what longer than a blade without one just because of physics and geometry. I just give a blade a quick rub on a water stone and am back in business.

Almost all of my chisels were bought through auctions on line or have come from estate and yard sales.

I broke down and spent the money (about $600 with all the extras) for a Veritas Mk.II sharpening System. When I bought it, there was a lot of sharpening to be done.

Fine Woodworking did a revue on sharpening systems and this one looked best to me. The final sharpening gets the blade sharp enough to shave my arms. I can get them a little sharper with a 4000 water stone. I am thinking of getting an 8000 water stone in the future.

My advice is to buy at least five tool holders. Also get some extra platters so you do not have to put a micro bevel on everything. If you do not have a lot of blades to sharpen, then I would get an 800 and a 4000 water stone of good size instead. I have both and if there is only one or two blades to sharpen or touch up, then I will use the stones. If there is a lot of sharpening and lapping to do, then the machine comes out.

A blade can go from dismal to sharp very fast once you learn to use the water stones. I do it free hand, but a rolling guide works great for many folks.

Get a rubber car floor mat or something to support the stones and keep water off of your bench.

On motors, a DC motor can work with a simple dimmer. Most common AC motors do not have speed variability unless they are some of the newer multi-phase and frequency motors. We have these where I work, but they are too big for a grinder, about 100 HP for traction motors on an electric commuter rail road.

Have fun,

Jim

--My dog is worried about the economy. Alpo is about $3 a can, thats almost fourty bucks in dog money!

[Jim Koepke]

Hello All,

I am very new to this forum and over the last several days of waiting to get approved for posting, I have done a lot of reading and learned more than I could have hoped for in such a short time. I want to thank all of you for being good enough to share your experiences so people like myself do not have to spend all of our time learing through trial and error..

My questions.. and they are noobish.

1. Do bench chisels typically have a double beveled edge? (one sided with 2 different degrees of bevel)

I have been trying to start making dovetails and went and bought a set of cheap Marples chisels from the local HD. The only chisel that had any kind of edge to it was the 1/4" so I have been using it a lot. I need to sharpen all of them.. and they look to have a double bevel. I have no experience with these tools. and want to try to do this correct the first time.

2. Any good literature or online explainations on good sharpening techniques?

3. As I tend to be overly purist and want to be a true neanderthal (read as cheap too) I intend to do all sharpening on stones and papers. However I do know that on occassion I am going to need a bench grinder or my sander to do some re-beveling. SO>. can I take a standard bench grinder ( Montgomery Wards circa 1960's 3400 rpm about) and put a dimmer switch on it to slow it down?

I will be back with more questions eventually, but think I shoud so a few more searches first.

Thank you all.

I was a little pressed for time with my last answer being on break at work.

There are a few different types of chisels as far as the edges. Some are beveled and are called such or sometimes they are called paring chisels. The bevel helps to get into the tight corners when trimming dove tails.

Next is what is often called a firmer or straight edge chisel. I have heard they are called firmer chisels because it can be hit firmer with a mallet.

Mortice chisels also have square edges like a firmer, but they are much thicker in profile than others.

A rare find is what is often called a barrel back chisel. Some consider these framing chisels or timber framing chisels. Also, chisels wider than 2 inches are often like this and are often called slicks or barking chisels. It may just be a style of making them at one time. These seem to be common among laminated chisels. These are usually mid 19th century or earlier when good hard cutting steel was expensive so the cutting steel would be laminated to a less expensive piece of steel.

Then there are socket chisels (my favorite) and tang chisels. This describes how they are mounted to their handle.

gouges have a curve to them and crank neck or pattern makers chisels have the chisel offset from the handle for special purpose work.

As far as articles on sharpening, do a search on 'scary sharp' and you will find an interesting story. I have learned a lot by searching different sites and reading catalogs. Lee Valley has lots of good information in their catalog and web site.

I think rexmill or one of the sites he links to has built a sharpener similar to the one I bought out of some spare parts. So cheap is possible.

I am new here also and have not quite figured out the restrictions on posting links to sites. I think this one is OK because I can not find anything for sale there:

http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/index.htm

The first three links are about chisel makers; Buck Brothers, Charles Buck and T.H. Witherby.

I have learned a lot about tools and their history from the links on that page.

One real problem, the more you learn, the more you will realise there is to learn.

One thing I just learned recently about dovetails is to just cut a little bit of the tail out. At the bottom of the waste, set the chisel on the line and tap it with the mallet. Take the chisel out, turn it around and set it on the waste just a little from the scribed line and tap it in and take out the sliver. Keep doing this until about half way through. Turn the wood over and repeat the procedure. This leaves a lot of the waste intact for support when cutting from the second side so it does not break out and leave a rough edge.

Have fun,

Jim

The finest fruit are borne of the seeds planted in one's mind.

[Randy Klein]

One real problem, the more you learn, the more you will realise there is to learn.


That's a true statement.