Dovetails - Woodrat or by hand?

[Ted Christiansen]

I own a Keller jig and am happy with it for making through dovetails. I am planning to make some 1800's period reproductions, and want more of a handcut look from irregular spacing.

To make dovetails will require some investment. I don't own a vise suitable for holding the work, so I included that in the cost:

$ 367.50 $ 729.00 HandcutWoodrat2 Dovetail markers (1:6, 1:8) $ 21.50 1/4" Dovetail chisel $ 48.50 Veritas 1:8 guide with saw $ 57.00 Veritas 1:6 guide $ 41.50 Veritas Twin Screw Vise $ 199.00 Woodrat Package $ 729.00

Handcut comes to about 1/2 the cost, but with some skill development. Which way would you go? Are there pieces the Woodrat can't put dovetails on, that would require handcut anyways?

Regards,

Ted Christiansen

[Jim Becker]

I believe it's a good idea to learn how to cut dovetails by hand, even if you machine things a lot of the time. Oh, and you don't need a vice to cut dovetails by hand. Just clamp the workpiece to your bench top with a hold-fast or, well....clamp...kneel down and cut away! And for repro work, hand-cut is likely to get you closer to the look you'll want. It's rare for machined dovetails to not be obviously machined, even with a jig like the Leigh I own.

[Gary Curtis]

Not to dispute what Jim says about using the hand method, consider this if you want to keep the cost low. I own a WoodRat. But you don't need to buy the whole machine. Since you already have the Keller jig, you could improve on it by simply buying a few of the WoodRat HSS dovetail bits. That is where the 'hand-made' look derives.

Some of the smallest ones have 1:9 slope, which works out to 6 degrees. Keep in mind that these bits won't work in abrasive materials such as MDF or in plywood. But if you are working with traditional styles, you would be ok.
The small ones are somewhat delicate, so proceed with caution. Low speed, small cuts at a time, slow feed rate.

Gary Curtis

[Brian Kent]

Check out Frank Klaus' "Dovetail a Drawer" DVD ($16 at Amazon). It really is amazing how many things you do NOT need.

I recently set up a demo at a hobby show at church, using a sturdy table (not even a workbench), and clamping a 12" wooden clamp ($4.99 at Harbor Freight) to the table with a couble of bar clamps (2 x 4.99 - same place). I used a Dozuki saw from Rockler (Top rated - $42.99), a mallet ($19), a wheel marking gauge ($13 at Rockler) and some Two Cherries bench chisels ($127 for 6 at Craftsman Studio).

That's under $250 for everything, assuming you were starting with nothing.:rolleyes:

[Ed Beers]

Low speed, small cuts at a time, slow feed rate.


I always understood that the best way to break a bit is too slow a speed.
I'm not sure a router can over speed a small bit in wood.

Too fast a feed will break them. To slow a feed will burn them.

[Gary Keedwell]

I always understood that the best way to break a bit is too slow a speed.
I'm not sure a router can over speed a small bit in wood.

Too fast a feed will break them. To slow a feed will burn them.
They are HSS bits and NOT carbide, so slowing down speed might be advisable.:)
Gary

[Gary Curtis]

In the WoodRat manual and from forums, the advice with the ultra-thin bits is to make shallow cuts, slow down the speed moderately, and slow down the feed to a crawl.

They make both Dovetail and Straight Bits (for Box joints) in very slender widths. An additional step I take with these small guys is to plow a groove to remove most of the waste using a carbide bit.

The HSS is pretty tough stuff, I must say. I have the second largest Dovetail bit. It is 15/16ths. I cut over 30 sliding dovetails with it in Douglas Fir. When I finished and took it to a local saw sharpening shop, the owner returned them to me a week later without touching them. He said they didn't need sharpening, and that I should use lightly hone them it a diamond stone on the flat faces.

I'm new to all of this, so take what I say lightly. But my understanding is that HSS itself isn't easy to burn. You can burn the wood, but the steel will take it. And, it is structurally stronger that carbide.

WoodRat sells a Dovetail bit that is 28mm. That is nearly 1 1/8 inches. Again, with the relatively narrow profile. I believe that one is a little less than 8 degrees.

Gary Curtis

[Gary Keedwell]

Agree HSS is structurally strong. If you were putting those sliding dovetails in an exotic hardwood instead of the relatively soft douglas fir, I don't think you would get 30 of them done without it burning up. On the other hand carbide would probably finish the job. :)
Gary

[Tim Sproul]

I am planning to make some 1800's period reproductions, and want more of a handcut look from irregular spacing.

Are your grandparents still around? Or better yet, great-grandparents? If so, go visit them and 'study' their any really antique furniture they've got. I guarantee you will find the dovetails have gaps and other 'features' and irregularities that are difficult to reproduce by machine.

One advantage of using softer woods like tulip poplar or basswood or pine for the drawer sides when hand dovetailing is that the woods are compressible. Cut the tails ever so slightly fat and you'll have gap free dovetails at the expensive of being able to dry fit. If you're worried about drawer life, rip the drawer side stock slightly narrow to final drawer height and glue on a strip of well-wearing wood like oak or maple such.

[Andy Pratt]

I just had the same dilemma and decided that I would try doing it by hand. I bought a high quality dovetail saw and layout saddle-type marker and made a marking knife from an old file. Total cost was about $150 (just using stanley chisels right now) Decided I would cut one full connecting joint every night (on scrap) until I got it figured out, planned on this taking a month or more. To my great surprise and happiness, I had it down to a functional level after about 10 tries, and it was a really rewarding thing to learn. Learning to cut dovetails by hand is one of the most rewarding things I've done in my short time woodworking, so for what it's worth I'd say this is definitely the way to go. It would be nice to have a solid vise in the shop too, which would be an added benefit of the "by hand" package you have listed.

[Grant Lasson]

Ted,

I wouldn't discourage anyone from cutting their first DT's by hand. I did the same. On the other hand, if you're trying to make the most of your shop time and you've got a lot of other demands on your time, you also need to think about speed.

I've had a woodrat for quite awhile. I like it a lot. It's fun. It's fast. It does a lot more than just dovetails. I've made 5-6 dovetailed cases as mobile bases for shop tools. I'd have never made them cutting the DT's by hand.

For "technique-authentic" 18th century reproductions, there can be no question: cut them by hand. In any other case, take a good look at the WR. The DT sockets and pins more closely resemble 18th century than anyone can currently achieve on a D4.

[Wilbur Pan]

I would learn how to do them by hand. But your shopping list for hand cut dovetails could be cut down a little.

You don't need a saw guide. If you get a Japanese pull style dovetail saw (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32935&cat=1,42884), you'll be able to learn how to saw straight very quickly.

You could use a regular bevel gauge (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32595&cat=1,42936,50298) instead of the dovetail markers. The 1:6 and 1:8 ratios are not set in stone, and there's a lot of room to move. The bevel gauge will allow you to cut any bevel you want.

You don't need a special dovetail chisel. I used blue handled Marples chisels from the borg when I was first learning. To be honest, I eventually got some nice Japanese chisels for paring, but these are not special dovetail chisels either.

Any vise will do for dovetail cutting. There are cheaper options than the twin screw vise, like a regular quick release vise (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=49980&cat=1,41659).

What I would add to your list, if you don't have these already, are a good marking gauge (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=49133&cat=1,42936) and a small square (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=44836&cat=1,42936,50298&ap=1). This will help you out with the marking, which is most of the battle when cutting dovetails by hand.

But the best thing to do is to take a lesson, if there is one close by to where you live (http://www.woodcraft.com/stores/store.aspx?id=321&nav=classes).

As far as speed of hand vs. power cut dovetails, I once asked a power tool guru how long it takes to cut a drawer's worth of dovetails using a router and jig. He said 45 minutes, most of which was the setup and test cut making.

I also asked a hand tool guru how long it took him to cut a drawer's worth of dovetails. He also said 45 minutes. Again, most of the time was spent in layout, but what time was lost in cutting the tails and pins by hand was gained by the fact that he didn't spend time making test cuts.

My bet is that machines beat hand tools in time savings when cutting dovetails at some X number of dovetails, but the actual value of X is probably higher than what most people think.

[Gary Curtis]

Among the old collection of FWW magazine and a few other out-of-print wood magazines I bought was an article title "How to Price Your Work". It was written by some guy from England. He was young, as I recall.

Anyway, in there is said to bill out a dovetail drawer at 8 hours. I was stunned. I've seen the Frank Klausz DVD and his speed makes a person want to dial 911. I mean it was positively intimidating. But 8 hours billing time to a customer per drawer is really something to ponder. Unless the sole objective is fun. If anyone cares, I can shuffle through my pile of magazines and give you a name, date and page to read this. It covered every imaginable furniture component to be priced.

Gary Curtis

[Mark Singer]

If dovetails are not cut by hand there are other types of drawers that can be made quickly that are strong and look fine. Dovetails are an expression of handcrafted woodworking and if that is done with a machine there is an false impression of the craft in my opinion. Once a few finer joints such as dovetails are mastered , all of your hand tool skills will progress and you will gain the confidence to make furniture in a variety of ways without working around what you may feel are limitations due to experience. I make plenty of drawers that are not dovetailed.....but if I want to make a dovetailed drawer I do it by hand and enjoy the craft....with time you will get faster. Then if you chose to make an exposed dovetail on an arm, or other piece of furniture you have the confidence and experience to do it. These hand made joints really make a piece special and raise it to another level...IMHO