Byrd Shelix jointer question.

[Dan Forman]

Those of you with Byrd cutter heads on your jointer, since the nature of the cut leaves a very slight longetudinal groove, do you true the edge after jointing but before gluing up a panel, or is the groove to little to make a difference? It would seem that depending on where the cutters meet the board, it could make the edges unstable for gluing. It would also seem that using a handplane could be dicey, as it could tilt one way or the other depending on how the groove is oriented on the edge of the board, throwing the edge out of square.

Dan

[glenn bradley]

I'm no help to you but I'll be anxious to hear the responses. I'm still on the fence over using something that leaves ripples on a tool that is supposed to make things flat.

I'm not trying to be a smarty-pants; I have just read so many variations on the degree of the problem (smooth as silk through definite ripples that "sand out easily") I am finding it hard to decide.

I'm currently in the straight-knife camp but have been swayed back and forth over time. At one point I was convinced that a spiral of some sort would be best for face jointing and I'd just use a glue-line-rip or the RT for edges. I guess I may end up buying the head that I've convinced myself is best at that moment in time(?) -or- convince myself that I just have too much time to think about this ;-)

[Gary Herrmann]

Dan, I haven't done an edge glue up with my shelixed boards, but on mine I don't think the scallops are prominent enough to interfere with the strength of the joint. I can see lines, but when I lay a straight edge across it, I don't see any light.

Maybe try a glueup on some scrap as an experiment. With my dinged up wing, its gonna be awhile before I get back down there to try.

[Jim Becker]

Any form of jointer cutter is going to leave scalloping to some degree...it's just the nature of a spinning cutter head. It really shouldn't affect edge gluing in the least, IMHO, as long as you make your final pass slow and smooth. And that's just good jointer technique.

[Jeff Raymond]

Wa'll guess it's worth putting some 2 cents words in here. I was cautioned by a couple of machinery suppliers not to jump into the spiral head game when I recently outfitted my tinker-toy shop. I think they were right.

A fellow woodworker just retrofitted his planer with a spiral cutter and the result was quite a bit of across-the-grain shears and bumps. My old fashioned straight-blade planer gives a much flatter surface; and if the blades are kept sharp, expect it will stay that way.

One of the sales guys said to me, "Spiral heads are just another way of getting more money from customers." Seemed pretty radical at the time, but it would appear he was right.

[Richard M. Wolfe]

Not on a jointer, but we have a Byrd head on a 20" planer. About three months ago I ordered a Grizzly and a Byrd head for it at the same time. We were going to be planing a lot of aromatic cedar and with all the grain changes around knots it is impossible not to get some tearout with a regular knife planer head. Prior to using the planer with the head that came with it we put the Byrd on it.

Couldn't be happier with it. I have read (and seen pictures) of the "grooves" left by the Byrd. But I have looked with strong light at all angles on all kinds of wood and can see no evidence of the grooves. From all I've read and heard some do and some don't.....maybe I got lucky.:) Yes, planer knives make a slicker cut, but I sand all surfaces anyway prior to whatever use I put it to. And I can understand the concern about an edge jointed board with grooves because you can't sand it.

But the cut is smoother than I thought it might be and think for most use it would finish fine. I just know I'll take a little less slick cut over patching eighth inch tearout any day. The guy I bought my sawmill from has a Grizzly jointer with their spiral cutterhead and makes furniture for the public using it and praises it (he says just the noise reduction is worth it)

[Ken Garlock]

I bought the Shellx head for my Sunhill jointer from Sunhill.

The first test cut after installing it was miserable and totally unacceptable. Then I did some careful measuring and found the head to be out of parallel to the tables. I bought some washer shims from McMaster & Carr. After putting them in I was only off by .001 or .002 from one end the cutter head to the other end. The cuts I now get are as smooth as the hair on a she mouses belly. No, I don't get strange edges or grooves.

I also found that I got better results when I took only 1/64" off on a single pass. I also set the fence so that I am sure that the fence covers part of the first cutter head.

[Steve knight]

the head can leave the same marks as you see with hand planing. but thats more with a face cut. for the most part the cut is the best out there. I have the head on my 6" jointer and it is a great improvement. I used to get 1 month or so out of a set of knives now I get 1.5 years between rotating the cutters.
now I need a planer with a bryd head but I need 1500.00 to do it.

[Craig Thompson]

I agree with Richard on this one... I have a Shelix head on my jointer, use it for door panels(glueups) almost every day... never had an issue at time of glueup.

[Gary Keedwell]

I don't have one but have done alot of research and read a ton of posts. 95 percent of what I have read has been positive. But your going to get negative no matter the product. When I get my retirement planer and jointer...it will consist of carbide inserts. I never want to ever change a blade again.:)
Gary

[glenn bradley]

I never want to ever change a blade again.

This is the feature that keeps me on the fence. Not that they're quieter ( I wear hearing protection anyway) I would just love to have those indexed inserts if the cut is good. Decisions, decisions.

[John Hedges]

I have heard so much about the longitudinal ridge on left by these heads and it cracks me up. I have a 15HH planer, and I really have to work to get the light at the correct angle to be able to see the ridge. I think ridge is a bad description as it is more of a line which is a bit shinier than the rest of the wood, but there is no discernable difference in height (at least on mine), if that makes any sense.

[John Stevens]

I own a Bridgewood jointer with a Shelix head. Edge jointing is as close to perfectly smooth as the eye can see. Boards go together with no visible gaps.

Regards,

John

[J.R. Rutter]

I remember posting similar questions on online forums about edge jointing with the shelix. I've had shelix heads on 3 different tools now. The first was a 20" 4-post planer with small (3") diameter head. This machine had the most prominent ridges, but the positives more than made up for them. They were very slight. Then I got a head custom made for a 12" jointer (4" diameter). The cut quality was even better on this machine, but I use it for facing only, so no data for edges. My latest shelix head is on an RC-63 planer. Large diameter (4-3/4" at least?) and very good quality. We routinely run frame stock on edge and don't notice ridges. If you are fixated on the ultimate joint, then you need to become proficient with a hand plane or go for a super surfacer. If you want fast, quiet feed with very low risk of tear out and minimal upkeep, then the Byrd head is the best bet, IMHO.

[Dan Forman]

Thanks for the responses. Just to clarify, the ridges or furrows I mentioed are not the same as on a traditional cutter head, which will run the with of the board. On a Byrd head, there are very shallow furrows that run the length of the board, rather than the width. My understanding is that the larger diameter the cutterhead, the less noticeable the ridges are. My head is about 3 1/2" diameter, so the ridges left are more noticable than some, board faces will have to be hanplaned or sanded, but the same was true with the Tersa head.

So for edge jointing with a standard head, one would expect any scallops to mate with those on the other board, to cancel out the effect. With the Byrd head, I thought perhaps the lengthwise ridges left might possibly interfere with the mating of the boards. That is what inspired my original post.

I recently installed a Byrd on my Mini-Max 14" jointer planer, mainly to reduce tearout on figured woods, but also to be able to go through knots, which are hard on the Tersa knives, and reduce blade changes due to dulling with tropical woods. The knives for the Tersa are easy to change, but are expensive, and the edges seem relatively fragile, and seem to chip easily on knots. Tersa owners will probably think I'm nuts, and maybe they are right, but I have been wanting to make the change for a long time, and got a great deal on the Byrd when Brian at Holbren had his sale offer.

With mine, I need a pretty dramatic raking light to be able to see furrows or ridges, but they are easily felt with the fingers. They are more easily visible after a piece comes out of the planer, where the rows are burnished by the planer table, and show up pretty clearly to the eye, as little stripes about 1/4" apart. These are the high spots which get burnished.

Upon further examination, when mating two boards that have been edge jointed, it is very difficult if not impossible to see any gaps, and if
there were any, it would appear they would be filled by glue. So that appears to be a moot point, as noted by some of your comments.

As to effectiveness, I have run some pretty gnarly maple, and only found tearout in only one little section with wild grain reversal. I ran some lacewood with no tearout at all, which didn't fare as well with the Tersa head. I wouldn't expect to have to replace all of the cutters due to wear for at least 10 years or so, based on projected use and comments from other owners. I'm pretty happy with the head so far.

Dan

[Ron Williams]

The Grizzly Spiral indexable heads do not leave ridges. While at the AWFS Byrd had a booth and was demonstrating their head which did leave visible ridges, Grizzly was joining curly maple with no tear out or ridges. I bought a Grizzly jointer and love it. I think they sell heads for other jointers

[J.R. Rutter]

Dan - I'm glad to hear your direct comparison between Shelix and Tersa. I've heard about the fragile Tersa steel, but understand the carbide is more robust.

I run a lot of tropicals and knotty alder, and have been wondering which way to go on a new S4S moulder. Every flat face will go through a wide belt anyway, so I'm thinking that Byrd heads would be the way to go, since they work well in my individual machines already. Quiet, very low tearout, easy to maintain. I've been on the fence about the side (edge) heads, but am leaning towards the Shelix there as well... A lot of moulder operators seem to diss them, but I think they have a different set of criteria. High feed rates might make a difference.

[Steve knight]

I get a huge difference in edge holding on tropicals. I pretty much only use tropical woods purpleheart, ipe, padouk, cocobolo, jatoba and more. I get about 15 times the life out of the cutters. well if you really figure it out for the whole for sides you get a huge amount more.

[Dick Strauss]

I think I remember someone complaining that the scalloping was something like .001-0.003" deep worst case scenario. Isn't this dimension smaller than most glue joints? If so, isn't this concern really a non-issue?

Maybe I'm missing something here...???

[Dan Forman]

I think I remember someone complaining that the scalloping was something like .001-0.003" deep worst case scenario. Isn't this dimension smaller than most glue joints? If so, isn't this concern really a non-issue?

Maybe I'm missing something here...???

That was the original question, would it influence the strenght of the joint"? I didn't know, so I started this thread. It seems as though the consensus is that it wouldn't, so I think we can put this one to bed.

Dan