Asian vs. Italian Bandsaws

[Michael Lutz]

I am not trying to be confrontational, but why would you pay almost twice as much for an Italian bandsaw vs. an asian bandsaw?

I currently do not own a bandsaw, but will probably get one in the future to do some resawing and for cutting turning blanks. I would like to skip the 14" saws and go to a 16" or 18" saw. I would like to be satisfied enough in my purchase to not have to upgrade for a long time.

What are the major differences between the asian bandsaws and the italian bandsaws?

If you purchased an asian bandsaw was it mainly because it cost less than an Italian bandsaw or were there other factors in your decision?

If you purchased an Italian bandsaw what made you spend the extra money for the saw over an asian bandsaw?

Thanks,

Mike

[Tom Cowie]

Hi Mike

I won't get into the price aspect of your question because it wasn't the deciding factor when I bought my Laguna LT-20 which is Italian made.
I was totally undecided for almost a year. I went around to some very helpful woodworking friends and a few stores and got to try some really nice machines. The Laguna won out for many reasons at the time of my purchase; Blador motor, ceramic guides, heavy and very balanced wheels, and extremely good re saw height. In my mind it's kind of like buying a car ,shop around a see what's out there and then narrow it down.

Good luck

Tom

[Tony Ward]

criteria to differentiate ~ size of motor; sturdiness of build; ease of use, e.g. set up - how difficult to - change the blade, - to adjust the above and below guides; size of table; versatility - range of blade sizes; type of side and thrust bearing supports; dust management on table and in enclosed areas; operating noise level; machine warranty provisions and your budget.

[Jim Becker]

Where something is manufactured isn't all that material...the quality of the specific machine, itself, it's features, the reputation of the vendor/company selling it, etc., and your feelings about all of them go into this decision. I bought Italian because I was very happy with the company after a previous machine purchase; a feeling that continues today after my third purchase from them earlier this year.

[Mike Wilkins]

Shop around is the best advice I can give anyone. I went from a benchtop machine of Far East origin, to a US made Delta 14", to my current 18" machine of Italian origin. This machine has been great, with lots of power and capacity, and has exceeded my initial expectations.
Try to find some locals with a machine you may be considering. I recently had a gentleman come to my shop to view my machine in person. Personally I think this is the best way to 'kick the tires', just like you were car shopping.
Good luck and watch those fingers.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike.........this is just like anything else in life. Do your research.....make your decision based on your information and budget. Some of the most beautiful woodworking projects in the world come from the crudest of tools.......Make a decison on what's right for you......What's right for you might not be right for me. I"ll respoct your decision and I'll insist you respect mine.

[Warren Clemans]

I think the question is one of price (and therefore, one hopes, quality), not country of origin. My 18" grizzly bandsaw has critical parts that are made out of pot metal, not cast iron or other durable metal. They include the bracket that the upper wheel mounts on (it broke), the guide holders (one broke), pulley (it's not well balanced, but hasn't broken yet), and other odds and ends. The bracket that the motor mounts to is flimsy sheet metal that flexes, making it hard to keep the motor shaft square to the plane of the pulleys. As a result, it vibrates.

My machine is about 8 years old; I'm told Grizzly machines are better nowadays, probably as a result of copying the European designs. It looks, however, like some parts on modern grizzly machines continue to be cheap metal. See the attached picture of a mounting block for blade guides on the modern 19" "extreme" saw (also at http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0514X/images/3) for an example. I could be wrong (and if so, I apologize to the grizz faithful), but that looks exactly like the grey metal that I had on my machine, and it's just not durable in my experience. Those screws will strip eventually, or worse, the metal surrounding them will crack (that's what happened to mine). Now look at the MM16 guide block (pic attached) or comparable Laguna machine. They're in another league.

So, the Grizzly machine costs $1250 and the MM16 costs $2400. You can buy a lot of replacement wheel brackets and guide blocks for $1150. It's not just about money. Every time I make a cut, I have to pull the table off my saw so that I can adjust the lower guides extremely precisely. If I don't, the cut wanders and I ruin good wood. I would never consider cutting veneer with my saw--I consider 1/4" of blade wander pretty good accuracy on this beast. As a result, I hate my saw every time I look at it. It's worth an extra $1000 to me to have a saw that I can trust, that doesn't break down routinely, that is well designed, and that lets me spend more time sawing than fiddling with the guides.

Now if the Minimax guy would just return my call so I can place an order... (and yes, I've been reading the recent discussions about certain shortcomings with the MM16, particularly in using a 1/4" blade, but I didn't see anything that gave me too much concern).

Please note--this is an honest answer to the original poster's question, based on my personal experience with a Grizzly saw and my opinions. I don't own an Italian saw (yet). I don't mean to offend people who have had good experiences with the green machines. I confirm that they generally have good customer service (though they never responded to my last email). Many people get perfectly good use out of them; my experience has unfortunately been bad. I'm not overly picky. I have a middle-of-the-line Jet table saw that I'm perfectly happy with and an ancient (well, 1986) Rockwell planer that I love. My Grizzly tools (bandsaw and jointer) have been disasters. If I had spent more money up front, I would have tools that I could keep for years. Instead, I'm looking to spend still more money, and endure the hassle of unloading the grizz tools. Buy a cheap saw now, and you'll use it until you can't stand it any more and then will replace it with a more expensive saw (unless you're lucky). Buy the expensive saw now and your total lifetime expense will be less.

I hope this helps. Obviously if you can only spend $1k, get the Taiwanese saw and get to work cutting wood. It's better than not doing woodworking. If, however, you can get the better saw without making your kids go without shoes, then do it. You might still get a lemon, but your odds are much better.

One final point--as I said, I don't have an Italian saw yet. Maybe I'll hate the Minimax just as much as I hate the Grizzly. Maybe I'll find out that the problem all along has been poor technique. I doubt it. If I'm wrong, I'll revise this post.

Cheers,
Warren

[John Karam]

What Warren said above is exactly what I'm worried about when considering grizzly tools. They are great today, but what about in 5 years? It's why I think I will by a laguna bandsaw over the grizzly bandsaw I've been looking into.

[nic obie]

I bought a MM16 when they first came out, and now that all of the flaws have been fixed I really, really like it. I can't ever see my self selling it.

However, to be honest, If the high end euro knock-offs that Grizzly now offers were available then, I would have bought one instead.

[Rod Sheridan]

Where something is manufactured isn't all that material...the quality of the specific machine, itself, it's features, the reputation of the vendor/company selling it, etc., and your feelings about all of them go into this decision. I bought Italian because I was very happy with the company after a previous machine purchase; a feeling that continues today after my third purchase from them earlier this year.

I agree with Jim, not everything about a piece of equipment directly relates to a dollar value.

I have a General 650 saw, do I need that kind of saw in the basement of a townhouse to make furniture at the hobbiest level? Of course not.

Do I regret buying it, of course not. Every time I hit the start button, and it comes up to speed so smoothly and quietly it makes me smile. Ditto for the fit and surface quality of the table grinding, paint etc, not to mention the feel of the handwheels and the extremely accurate and smooth cuts it makes.

General, like many of the Italian machinery manufacturers are renowned for their quality, servicability and availability of spare parts. These are things that remain long after the price savings on a less expensive, and less servicable machine are forgotten.


Regards, Rod.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Warren, I checked the models of the machines that you purchased 8 years ago and must say that I tend to agree with your assesment of those particular machines, both of which have been discontinued by us for obvious reasons. The bandsaw, G1012, was discontinued from our line almost 5 years ago and we have moved on and up since then.
Many of the bandsaws, jointers and other machines are a far cry from the machines that we offered in yesteryear. In fact we just came out with a 17" bandsaw http://www.grizzly.com/products/g0636x that was designed to compete directly with the European saws in that size. There are many, many (thousands) of happy owners of our "modern" bandsaws. Granted, that does not help you because you have one of the older machines that you are unhappy with.

Regarding, the comment by John K - If you have followed the history of our company and the progress we have made in quality improvement in the last few years, you will understand that it would not be in our interest to regress. Simply put, there isn't a chance in hell that we will go back to having low to medium quality control. Here's an excerpt from an old posting of mine about the same subject. Might give you a better understanding about us.

"Many of the people that view Grizzly products in a negative light, relate it to some experience they had many years ago. A brief explanation is in order here. First of all, we are a relatively young company – only 23 years in business. Businesses evolve and as such, our processes were continuously being refined. Then about 7 years ago we made the decision to open a branch office in Taiwan and hire engineers on our payroll to do our quality control, in order to bring up the overall quality of our machines.

We hired real engineers with engineering degrees, as well as practical inspection experience (we have 9 of them in Taiwan and 4 in China where we also have an office). One of these engineers was actually a supervisor of a CNC machining center facility and was, and still is, anal about quality control. It was like going from one extreme to the other. The factories hated our inspectors at first because it meant a huge change in procedures, rejection rate, etc…. All of which would cost the factories more to produce our equipment. Simultaneously to this we upgraded our motors to the best motor factory in Taiwan and paid an additional 15% to 25% for each motor. We also paid extra to get all sheet metal parts, stands, etc… powder coated – a process that puts a more chip resistant finish on the painted surfaces. If we were going to produce quality equipment, we needed to go all the way.

While some people had comments about past experiences with Grizzly, others jump in and make negative comments about "I have heard…", without ever having used a Grizzly machine. This then gets repeated with a little salt and pepper added and before you know it – it’s a Grizzly bashing party. I also take exception to a comment made by Tom Jones III that Grizzly is "not known for high end woodworking tools". Not known to whom? Why is it that we sell more wide belt sanders and other large machines to the industry than just about any other company selling similar products? Almost all guitar building companies in the USA use Grizzly equipment – Gibson, Fender, Taylor, Larrivee, Suhr. In fact, Suhr Guitars has over $50K worth of our equipment that is used daily for production of high end guitars. John Suhr’s guitars retail from $2,500.00 to $6,000.00 each. And, contrary to what is required of most woodworking, guitar builders work in thousandths of an inch. I know, I build guitars as a hobby (you can see my work at the Grizzly web site www.grizzly.com (http://www.grizzly.com/) The Fender custom shop uses our 16" jointer ($5K) with the spiral cutterhead to flatten highly figured woods. This is only one of numerous machines they have. I could go on and on!

My background stems from metalworking. I have a complete machine shop at home and one here at work (for my use only), where I also have CNC machines. I always tease my wife that I have a mistress. Her name is "Millie" (my milling machine). I have two Bridgeport type mills in my shop at home. I started off in the tool business by rebuilding metal lathes. I know what it takes to achieve .0001" accuracy (one ten thousandths of an inch) and what instruments are required to measure such tolerances. I routinely use such measurements in some of my other hobby work. It would, indeed, be impractical for the average magazine writer to measure in one ten thousandths. All the tolerances we specify for our machines are in thousandths of an inch and the FWW article also used .001" increments.

While magazine tests may not be the most complete and as elaborate as some would like, they do serve a purpose. They give the readers a flavor for what’s out there and a side by side comparison of numerous brands. I can tell you that even when we have disagreed with writers in the past, we have always learned something from them. Why did such and such machine get top honors? What features did the writer like, dislike? If we thought a certain feature was worth adding, we would then change our machines accordingly. This is good for the buying public.

In closing, I am not at all surprised that our 8" jointer won "Best Overall". After all, the company that makes that jointer for us also makes the SawStop and Powermatic machines. Plus, the owner is a personal friend of mine, so we get more tender, loving care during production. I am also proud that we have come a long way in quality and can go head to head with just about anyone. Our prices are lower because, unlike other brand names, we sell direct to the user. We sell more 8" Jointers than any other company in the world. Period! Further, I am personally against tests where lesser priced machines are tested against money no object machines. If that is the case, we should be allowed to enter one of our industrial $5K plus machines in, say, an "unlimited jointer test". This is really not practical for the average person who has budget and space limitations."

[Warren Clemans]

Shiraz, thanks for the reply. Am I wrong in pointing out that the assembly that holds the guides on the GO514X (shown in the photo that I attached to my original post) is cast metal similar to the assembly on my saw, rather than the machined assembly that Minimax uses? I'm not implying that there's anything wrong if it is. Your machine costs over $1,000 less than its Italian counterparts, and you have to achieve those cost savings somehow. However, the original poster asked why one might consider buying the more expensive machine. Despite QC improvements that Grizzly and others have made in the last 10 years, I still think there are good reasons to spend the extra money. Certainly not everyone will reach the same conclusion.

Like many others here, I'm extremely impressed that you take the time to participate in these discussions. If you're ever in the market for a used bandsaw, let me know...

Regards,
Warren

[Shiraz Balolia]

Shiraz, thanks for the reply. Am I wrong in pointing out that the assembly that holds the guides on the GO514X (shown in the photo that I attached to my original post) is cast metal
Warren

Yes, you are wrong! Two different manufacturers, two different metal components, two different castings, two vastly different failure rates. In other words completely different.

It would not be in our interest to talk about high quality of these saws and then turn around and use cheap "pot-metal" castings that you are assuming the new saws to have, based on what you encountered in an old, discontinued model. I can put two pieces of aluminum in front of you and you probably would say they are the same, because they look the same. Yet, one could be substantially stronger. For example 1060 aluminum versus T7075, the later being 8 times stronger!

[Warren Clemans]

Point taken. I believe you that your casting today is better than it was 10 years ago. Is it better than the really beefy machined part that Minimax uses? Maybe, but I'm not convinced. Again, I'm not trying to knock your tools (except on the basis of my experience, with full disclosure that I'm talking about an older machine)--just helping to explain why someone might prefer one over another.

[SCOTT ANDREWS]

Point taken. I believe you that your casting today is better than it was 10 years ago. Is it better than the really beefy machined part that Minimax uses? Maybe, but I'm not convinced. Again, I'm not trying to knock your tools (except on the basis of my experience, with full disclosure that I'm talking about an older machine)--just helping to explain why someone might prefer one over another.


Without actually comparing the two pieces side by side,doing a stress test on both pieces,how do you convince yourself?The right person can tear up an Army tank.I have 4 Grizzly machines and will put them up against any other brand out there.Read the post today about the PM 2000 cabinet saw.My 1023SLX was,and still is,dead on at 0 degrees and at 45 degrees.It came off the pallet this way.Every degree in between 0-45 is spot on.My bandsaw and jointer have the same rating.I think it's more of a personal choice as to what make you really desire.That personal choice doesn't make the other brand a POS.A $250,000 Porsche sitting in traffic on the freeway goes no faster than a $25,000 Mustang.You might look better,but your not going any faster.

[Dave MacArthur]

I am extremely impressed by this thread. Warren's post was well-reasoned and seemed objective. The fact that Mr. Balolia takes the time to respond, and that such issues clearly are of serious concern to him, and the obvious pride he has in the continued quality improvement of his company... wow. It seems obvious to me that somewhere down the road, in some design/cost meeting at Grizzly, this sort of conversation will have a positive impact--and just as obvious this receptive quality mindset already exists and has resulted in a great company.

I feel a bit like a cheerleader here, but honestly... after 15 years of listening to speeches on "total quality" and "quality mindset" in the Air Force, I have never seen such a good example of the process being lived by leadership. Very impressed.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Interesting thread. I'm thinking about going to the Woodworks Show here next month, partly so I can see Laguna and MiniMax stuff in person. I see so much about them and I want to see if all the superlatives are borne out.

I don't have any Grizz stuff, but I do have a couple ShopFox machines including their 19" bandsaw. I have been pretty satisfied, and for the money I'll be surprised if a saw that is 2x+ as much is worth that (to me and my needs).

I think the refined, CNC'ed pieces and more finely manufactured items account for much of the difference. The euro guides on my SF work fine, though they use thumbscrews and aren't as nice as the MM. But I'm guessing they work as well, albeit taking longer to set up. The 2hp motor isn't nearly as powerful, but I've never bogged it down so it works for me. And I'll tell ya, if I had bought one of the MMs that people have been discussing latley that required fiddling and modification to get a 1/4" blade to work I'd be PO'ed. My SF has run 1/4-3/4 blades just fine.

As for the "pot metal"; my cast aluminum block that holds the guides is fine. No cracking, stripping, etc. And the notion that CNC'ed parts are stronger is a fallacy. Shiraz being a metal machinist can probably corroborate this. Cast al pieces are often stronger than milled because the milling removes material and impacts the grain structure (or something to that effect), whereas casting helps optimize grain structure and alignment, but it doesn't look as pretty. Function over form.

Someone mentioned the car analogy, and I think it is accurate. The Corvette out-performs many supercars in some respects at a fraction of the price. But the styling and refinement just isn't there, nor is the cachet. But it works and at a much lower price point.

JH

[Chris McDowell]

Good thread. As I have said before, it says a lot about a company when the President takes time to answer questions and face criticism on a forum.

I visited the Grizzly showroom in Springfield,Missouri a few months back. I was looking at sliders and while I was there I naturally looked over the other offerings. Let me just say this is my very humble opinion, but Grizzly is producing some very nice offerings in cabinet saws, wide belt sanders, and band saws.

Is it better than MiniMax? That is for each individual to decide. I'm not buying any of their sliders because they still have some shortcomings which Todd Solomon and others have talked about in other threads. But I bet I could go back in a couple of years and those problems would be resolved.

Companies prosper or die due to leadership. There are reasons Grizzly is growing and Home Depot is struggling. Just my.02 cents.

Chris

[Greg Pavlov]

Warren, I checked the models of the machines that you purchased 8 years ago and must say that I tend to agree with your assesment of those particular machines, both of which have been discontinued by us for obvious reasons. ......
Sounds like you folks should offer Warren a hefty gift certificate towards his next Grizzly purchase, for obvious reasons.:cool:

[John Karam]

First off I'd like to say Mr. Balolia, I really respect that you visit and communicate with the people on this forum.

I feel that the idea of "Getting what you paid for" is deeply ingrained in our society. I know I feel that way often though I wish to believe otherwise. It's odd that I'm convinced that grizzlys 8'' jointer is a great tool but I questioned the quality of their bandsaw based on price.

When I was saying I'd probably buy the laguna over the grizzly bandsaw, I should have made it more of a general statement. I meant more along the lines of in any case I would rather grab the "Expensive Companys" tool over the "Low Cost Companys" tool because of how long I should be able to expect it to last.

From the research that I have been doing, I definitely agree that the quality of Grizzly tools have greatly improved. Most horror stories that I hear are from the past. I think the reason I get nervous about it now is because I'm looking to purchase a jointer, bandsaw, and planer...all potentially grizzly.

I do have one question for Mr. Balolia however. Why is it that your company has a short warranty (1 year I believe) policy on their tools compared to other companies such as Powermatic (5 years I've seen, don't know if thats for all tools)?

Thanks for the thoughts and comments :-)

[Steve Rybicki]

I feel that the idea of "Getting what you paid for" is deeply ingrained in our society.

Having owned a business for the past 20 years has taught me that this is only a vague generalization that falls apart in many situations. There is a premium that some companies charge for their "name". Buying the best will sometimes cost substantially more, even if the actual difference in performance is very small. Surprisingly, the best product is quite often the cheaper one.

Distribution networks can greatly affect costs. As Shiraz pointed out, and most everyone knows, Grizzly sells direct. This is how I prefer to buy products. Others prefer the extra cog in the network and appreciate local service, but that will cost you. In my situation, service from any company is long distance when it comes to woodworking, so that affects my choice.

There are many other areas in which a company can save substantial money and still put out a quality product that competes with the best. Some companies are simply more efficient. To evaluate quality, I prefer to not go by price. I don't like paying for "names". I don't like paying for extra cogs in distribution and I don't like paying for inefficiency. Therefore, I evaluate my tools from user comments, features and any actual experience I can get from using it before purchase.

At this point, I've purchased two Grizzly tools and I'm sure they are not the best money can buy, but they may be the best in their class, and they are certainly a great value for what they'll do.

[Chris Barnett]

Would be nice if the detailed design/manufacturing drawings including bills of materials and any test results, were available for review before purchasing tools. Don't mind paying top, middle or bottom dollar for any tool; my only concern is not knowing what I am getting for that hard earned dollar. If I can see a tool, I can often determine if it will meet my needs, and if the component material spec is known, little can be hidden. Would rather see a tool steel listed as a bearing carrier though instead of aluminum, but at least one of the very best aluminum alloys is apparently being used.

My first Griz delivered this week is the G1023SLW and am now looking at the Griz 513X bandsaw and one other manufacturer, with a planer and lathe to follow shortly, and maybe a few other items later. Trying to make up for lost time with not that many left. I would be quite happy if it worked out that the entire shop was green; it's restful to the eyes.

Above all else, if a manufacturer is truthful, so that a customer can make an informed decision, seems that the manufacturer should more likely stay in business during rough times as well as the fat years. Will say though that personal involvement, i.e. direct discussion via SMC, to the point that customers' needs are met, means a lot, and to the extent that the clientele wishes the very best [continued] success for that manufacturer.

Will hush now....have probably said too much already, being an unknown.

[Ron Williams]

At the AWFS I purchased my first Grizzly machines. To say that I am pleased would be a huge understatement. I went to that show looking for a new jointer, Planer and table saw. It never crossed my mind that I would purchase grizzly machines. I purchased an Extreme series 12" jointer and the Extreme series 15" Planer. I spent all day looking at machines from all over the world and bought what I considered to be the Best in Class. I did not purchase a table saw because I am considering a slider and have not made my mind up yet. On top of being pleased I stayed under budget.
Ron

[Greg Pavlov]

Having owned a business for the past 20 years has taught me that this is only a vague generalization that falls apart in many situations. There is a premium that some companies charge for their "name". Buying the best will sometimes cost substantially more, even if the actual difference in performance is very small. Surprisingly, the best product is quite often the cheaper one. ......
My view of it is that you *always* get what you pay for, but you don't always know *what* you are paying for (and it is often different from what you think you are paying for...)

[Mike Spanbauer]

I think that several here, and Shiraz included, have highlighted the differences really. Any modern manufacturing facility attempts to build the products to the specification of the vendor every time. Accuracy and quality control is where there is a difference in *some* cases. To produce a seriously high quality machine AND have flawless tolerances on every unit, would drive a products cost up 25-30% in terms of real margin... this would equate to a 50-75% premium in product price (additional training required, staff retention, etc... there is a heck of a lot that goes into supporting that caliber of quality).

I own an MM16, it's built like a tank and frankly, there is little it can't handle in my current shop needs. The things that it can't are why I am considering an MM20 or more likely an MM24. I did not receive a pristine MM16, but the few issues I did have were readily addressed in a professional manner, no questions asked by the company. In short, I was highly satisifed with their handling.

Grizzly is one of (perhaps the) only vendor who is specifying a modern bandsaw style with the same duty rating as the Italian machines now.

I've not had my hands on one so I can't compare them side by side though. The bottom line is you'll have to be comfortable with your own choice or you'll have buyer's remorse every time you turn the machine on. I have none with my MM16.

mike

[Allen Bookout]

The bottom line is you'll have to be comfortable with your own choice or you'll have buyer's remorse every time you turn the machine on.

mike

Truer words were never spoken!!!!!!!

[Luciano Burtini]

I am not trying to be confrontational, but why would you pay almost twice as much for an Italian bandsaw vs. an asian bandsaw?



Mama Mia!

Why would you pay more for a Ferrari than a Hyundai?

:eek:

[Bruce Benjamin]

I am extremely impressed by this thread. Warren's post was well-reasoned and seemed objective. The fact that Mr. Balolia takes the time to respond, and that such issues clearly are of serious concern to him, and the obvious pride he has in the continued quality improvement of his company... wow. It seems obvious to me that somewhere down the road, in some design/cost meeting at Grizzly, this sort of conversation will have a positive impact--and just as obvious this receptive quality mindset already exists and has resulted in a great company.

I feel a bit like a cheerleader here, but honestly... after 15 years of listening to speeches on "total quality" and "quality mindset" in the Air Force, I have never seen such a good example of the process being lived by leadership. Very impressed.

I wonder, if the owners of Steel City, Delta, MM, Laguna, General, etc., came onto this forum, how many of you would be impressed when they all say that their company produces machines that are as good as anyone else's? I'm not saying that what Papa Grizz is saying isn't true, (or what he believes to be true, at least) but why are you guys so impressed by this? It sounds like very inexpensive advertising to me. Read a thread that puts your company in a bad light, submit a post that tells everyone how great your company is. Make sure you include Bold print and exclamation points! (That means that he meant what he said, I guess.) He didn't even have to spend too much time doing it. This time he quoted what he wrote last time. There's little doubt that there are at least a few people who may have been on the fence about Grizzly versus another brand and these speeches by Papa Grizz just pulled them onto his side. If I owned a company like this I'd do exactly the same thing. It's money in the bank with very little time spent.

He has the right to come and defend his company for sure but how would everyone feel about this forum if every company owner did this? I know that when Dino from EZ Smart answers questions or defends his company some people get really bent out of shape. He builds first rate products and they're built in the USA. How many machines has Papa Grizz donated to the Freedom Pen cause? Are any of the Grizz machines built in the USA? I realize that the two companies build entirely different products. But both companies' products and owners have a presence here on SMC.

I really wonder how the cheerleaders would feel about the owners of the competing companies having a little head to head debate about the quality of their machines versus the competition. It's easy to look good when you're the only one tooting their own horn. Would Papa Grizz still look as good if MM or Laguna came onto this forum to question the assertion that the Grizz machines are as good as theirs? Maybe, maybe not.

Why don't more company owners toot their own horn on these forums? I don't know.:confused: They are missing out on a great opportunity. People seem to appreciate it for the most part and it's certainly an inexpensive way to get people thinking about your company. It shows that Papa Grizz has some very good business sense compared to some of the other WW tool companies out there. I don't know how much of an impact it would have for the larger companies but why don't the owners of Sunhill or Steel City or one of the other smaller companies do this? I'm sure they would argue the same points that Papa Grizz has and say that their tools are just as good as the more expensive ones too. They are definitely missing out on some good, (and inexpensive) publicity.

Bruce

[Joe Mioux]

I chose my MM16 based on several factors.

The weight of the fly wheels is pretty impressive when compared to other 16 inch band saw wheels.

Cast Iron Fence,

Foot Brake.... This is a really nice feature once you have the bands saw wheels turning and you want them to slow down quickly.

Large motor,

the guides are nice

Since i haven't place a 1/4 inch blade on this saw, I haven't had any problems that are associated with it and the saw.

16 inch resaw height is nice, but has yet to be used.

If you never owned any Bandsaws in the past, and you buy a mm16, you may feel or say "what is the big deal about this saw". However, once you start comparing the components, i.e. weight, size gauge, etc you soon appreciate the differences.

Joe

[Steve Rybicki]

Would Papa Grizz still look as good if MM or Laguna came onto this forum to question the assertion that the Grizz machines are as good as theirs?

Why do you call him "Papa Grizz"? It sounds disrespectful to me. Then again, your whole post sounded a bit disparaging towards Grizzly. Maybe I'm missing something and that is what he prefers being called.

[Jim O'Dell]

Pappa Griz is Shiraz Balolia's user name at Woodnet. He is the Pappa of Grizzly. I'm sure there was no disrespect intended in calling him that.
I'll not comment on the remainder of the post. Jim.

[Guy Belleman]

Lots of discussion about various machines. I have seen them all, and most of the ones mentioned are great. This last summer I purchased a new Grizzly 17" and it is a fantastic machine.

The roller guides, smooth table adjust, beautiful fence, and minimal set up time made it a pleasure to begin to use. The price was great, the conversion to 110V (until I get 220V wired in) took seconds.

I found the window to see how the blade is tracking and another to see the tension gauge much more handy than I thought, and features that the others I was looking at didn't have.

Even on 110V, it sliced through all the 5 and 8 inch timbers I put to it. I am very impressed with this machine. In the picture is the sled that I used for crosscutting, specifically making tenons on pieces for my new workbench.

Guy

[Bruce Benjamin]

Why do you call him "Papa Grizz"? It sounds disrespectful to me. Then again, your whole post sounded a bit disparaging towards Grizzly. Maybe I'm missing something and that is what he prefers being called.


Steve, Papa Grizz(ly) is the name that HE gave himself. That good enough for you? Good. And as to the rest of my post, I'm not really a fan of Papa Grizzly for a couple of reasons but if you read carefully you'll see that my post was really addressed not to him but more to the people who were drooling all over themselves and marveling at how he has chosen to grace us with his presence. Not just in this thread but many others on two different forums. He's just a guy who makes a ton of money off you people selling you Chaiwanese tools. I don't believe he comes to these forums out of the goodness of his heart so much as he comes here to keep the discussions about his tools on a positive note. As long as the moderators allow that I have no problem with that. But come on guys, look at his motives for his posts in this thread. It wasn't for our benefit. It was for his benefit.

Bruce

[Zahid Naqvi]

I am locking this thread as it has transformed from a discussion of Asian VS Italian to a commentary on Grizzly and Shiraz. This criticism on Shiraz is completely uncalled for and certainly off topic.