Hand cut dovetails: getting worse not better

[Brian Knodel]

This is my first attempt using the Rob Cosman’s method by cutting the tails first and then scribing a line from the tails to mark the pins. The first attempt was acceptable, barely. The wood was Birch to Birch.
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The instructional DVD says to cut the pins on the waste side of the line but split the line with the saw. So now on the third and this is the fourth attempt all with the same results, if I cut any where’s near the line I get huge gaps, so I’m now cutting well away of the line and pare down to a fit (a lot of work). In the photos you can still see the scribe marks (I started planing them off and then realized I needed them for the photos.) I shouldn’t have to pare this much so all I can think of is that my marking or scribing is to fault, I tried small a jackknife, an exacto knife, a striking knife, all with the same result. Kind of getting frustrated as I not sure how to fix this so I can cut to the line as per the instruction.

Hope someone can put me on the right track.
Thanks

Fourth attempt with 7/16 thick willow
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[Robert Goodwin]

Those are better than anything I have produced.

[Jason Beam]

Brian,

The marking knives your using, are any of them single-bevel? I've had far better results using a single-bevel knife, resting the flat side against the reference surface. Those lines look far enough off that the thickness of the blade may be at fault. I had lots of trouble (still do) with getting the knife up close enough to the surface being referenced.

[Brian Knodel]

Excellent point Jason …none of the knives I tried were single bevel but I did buy a small kitchen knife with a bevel on the left hand side and found it would work well for marking on the left but for right hand marking the bevel would be further away from the reference point so I didn’t use it. They are cheap knives so now you have me thinking that maybe I should grind the bevel off of one of the knives and place the bevel on the other side, in essence one knife for left and one for right.

Brian

[Brian Knodel]

Those are better than anything I have produced.

If you could see them for real I don’t think you’d be that impressed, I think the camera hides lots of mistakes. But thanks just the same.

Brian

[Jason Beam]

I've seen folks use the two knife approach with great success.

I've found for my larger dovetails that a spade-point knife is easier to keep track of instead of two knives. It doesn't help on them ultra fine ones with 1/8" pins, but for my "less than uber" drawers it gets in there well enough.

I'm almost certain that lee valley sells one, but can't find it on their site anywhere. I could have sworn i'd seen it in their catalog. Maybe in their "new products" type thing. I'm still digging for it and will keep you posted...

AHA! like this:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=72609&d=1190931509

A friend of mine rounds his tip so it's sharp, just curved instead of pointy. More of a delicate slicing action. I've found the sharper tip lets me bear down and get a deeper cut with less effort. Differ'nt Strokes :)

[Wallis Hampson]

Bluesprucetoolworks.com has the best marking knives in my opinion. Until you hold one, you wont believe me. And I too would be happy with the dovetails as I would post those as a "look how good I did"

[mike holden]

try this to cut to the line.
use a single bevel knife, and make the line fairly deep.
Then, from the waste side, use a chisel to take a small wedge off the surface of the waste. Difficult to describe really, but you are left with a small vertical wall along the line with a bevel in the waste.
Your saw will much more easily align along the wall and the saw cut will be "to the line"
The english author Charles Hayward calls this a "class three sawcut", I call it amazing.
It is a small wedge, no wider or deeper than the saw kerf.
It takes little time, certainly MUCH less than paring!
Mike

btw, class one is just a line, class two is a line with a wedge at the corner, class three is a wedge all along the line(s)

[Brian Knodel]

I've seen folks use the two knife approach with great success.

I've found for my larger dovetails that a spade-point knife is easier to keep track of instead of two knives. It doesn't help on them ultra fine ones with 1/8" pins, but for my "less than uber" drawers it gets in there well enough.

I'm almost certain that lee valley sells one, but can't find it on their site anywhere. I could have sworn i'd seen it in their catalog. Maybe in their "new products" type thing. I'm still digging for it and will keep you posted...

AHA! like this:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=72609&d=1190931509

A friend of mine rounds his tip so it's sharp, just curved instead of pointy. More of a delicate slicing action. I've found the sharper tip lets me bear down and get a deeper cut with less effort. Differ'nt Strokes :)
Jason your link came up with an error message but I think I know the knife you’re talking about … I found an old LV catalog and punched in the part number at the LV site and the knife is no longer available. But that’s ok as I purchased this knife some time ago and for dovetail it is not suitable as the blade is too wide and won’t fit between the narrow tails.

Brian

[lowell holmes]

I use a carving knife (Flexcut?). Just tilt the handle of the knife until the bevel closest to the tail or pin you are marking against touches it and you will not have a problem. I learned using a utility knife and I stilll use it occaisionally. I have a double bevel marking knife that I don't like.

Having said all of that, I think that Lee Valley does not ship their marking knife out of Canada. Japan Woodworker has one that is similar and is priced less than %20.

There was a string on this subject elsewhere.

[Brian Knodel]

Bluesprucetoolworks.com has the best marking knives in my opinion. Until you hold one, you wont believe me. And I too would be happy with the dovetails as I would post those as a "look how good I did"

So you think I’m my own worse critic? Thanks … and thanks for the link.

Brian

[Brian Knodel]

try this to cut to the line.
use a single bevel knife, and make the line fairly deep.
Then, from the waste side, use a chisel to take a small wedge off the surface of the waste. Difficult to describe really, but you are left with a small vertical wall along the line with a bevel in the waste.
Your saw will much more easily align along the wall and the saw cut will be "to the line"
The english author Charles Hayward calls this a "class three sawcut", I call it amazing.
It is a small wedge, no wider or deeper than the saw kerf.
It takes little time, certainly MUCH less than paring!
Mike

btw, class one is just a line, class two is a line with a wedge at the corner, class three is a wedge all along the line(s)

Excellent tip, I understand completely and will certainly give that a try along with all the other fine tips I’m receiving.

Brian

[harry strasil]

I started many years ago on my Neander Woodworking and no decent knives were available commercially. I therefore made 3 of my own, two from the blade of a two man saw, the two on the outside in the picture, the left one being an old design I came across in an old WW book. They were both a little thick for marking pins so I made the middle one from a piece of old handsaw blade and sharpened it from only one side, I call it my Swallow Tail Dovetail Marking Knife, it works just perfect for me for marking dovetails.

Oh yes, I don't care for the itty bitty pins, so I have never cut them, they just don't look strong enough to me. LOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/markingknives.jpg

[Jim Newman]

Ron Hock sells the steel for a very nice marking knife. All you have to do is add the wood of your choosing! Pretty affordable to! I believe his site is hocktools.com. No I am not affiliated at all. Please for those of us just starting, continue with your thread so we can learn some of those hard won secrets!!!

[Martin Shupe]

Rob Cosman has cut thousands of dovetails.

Yours will get better with practice.

I highly recommend you search for a FWW article that CH Becksvoort wrote on cutting dovetails. It gives excellent tips.

The Cosman video is great, but the more videos and articles you read, the more tips you pick up.

The only way to get better at dovetails is to practice, practice, practice.

[Brian Knodel]

Thank you kindly gentlemen for your advice, if its one thing I have learned is that practice makes perfect so I’ll try some different methods and keep practicing. One thing though, with all this practicing, I’ve gone through my meager scrap wood pile and now have to cut up good lumber to practice on …. Oh well.

Brian

[lowell holmes]

I've found that the women in my family and their circle of friends love the Shaker candle boxes I've made for practice. You can drive little wedges in open joints that occur and they will never show after being finished and aged a bit. The boxes can be made from pine, oak, or a favorite mine, soft maple. The maple can be stained with a die stain and a couple of coats of a wipe on finish, and you have a box they will cherish.
I made a box of red oak for my LN 140 plane and my wife took it for her sewing sissors and I didn't think the box was that good. My plane is till in the box it came in.

[James Mittlefehldt]

One thing you might want to try is a method I read about in one of LEE Valley's historic reprints, originally published years ago, not sure how many years, but lots.

In this book they advise saw the lines for the tails first, no big deal there, then BEFORE you chop out the waste, carefully align the tail board with the pin board oriented the way it would be when put together. Then saw down through the established kerfs with your saw and establish the lines for your pin board that way.

I tried it on some scrap and it seemed promising, then I tried again only instead of using the dovetail saw I used a very fine kerfed saw and they did not line up so well. If your experimenting anyway try that.

[Don Bullock]

I think that they look great, especially for someone who hasn't cut very many. Rob Cosman makes it look easy in his video. He's been cutting dovetails for a long time.


So you think I’m my own worse critic?

Yes!!!:D

[Brian Knodel]

I started many years ago on my Neander Woodworking and no decent knives were available commercially. I therefore made 3 of my own, two from the blade of a two man saw, the two on the outside in the picture, the left one being an old design I came across in an old WW book. They were both a little thick for marking pins so I made the middle one from a piece of old handsaw blade and sharpened it from only one side, I call it my Swallow Tail Dovetail Marking Knife, it works just perfect for me for marking dovetails.

Oh yes, I don't care for the itty bitty pins, so I have never cut them, they just don't look strong enough to me. LOL



I respect what you are telling me Harry about the thin pins, but for me being rather new to this had cut dovetail thing I thought it might be something to strive for as in trying to make sure your dovetail are distinguishable from machine made. I always thought thin pins more desirable but that’s just me and my opinion only. Just like some folks think that the scribe line should be left on as a signature of a hand cut dovetail, I think they are fine in drawers but in small boxes they should be taken off, but again that’s just me. I mostly build small boxes so strength I’m hoping is not a big issue.

By the way … today I ground down an old kitchen knife (at least I hope it was an old one … we will soon find out) and sharpened it and made it look like the middle one you posted. I haven’t had a chance to try it yet but thanks for the great idea.


Brian

[Derek Cohen]

Brian

Your practice dovetails are truly excellent. A sharp knifed line will make life easier, but not necessarily improve on what you've done.

I use a knifed line when cutting the Tails (which I do first), just knifing across the top of the board - because the vital part of a dovetail is this straight, square line. The angles are less important. Marking the Pins from the Tails it is helpful to use a thin-bladded, flat-backed knife, especially if the pins are skinny (particularly if they are just a kerf thick).

Chisel a fence against the line so as to remove the Pin waste cleanly. This is also vital for a tight fit. Without this there is the danger that you will cut too far into the line and the joint will be sloppy.

Here is my tutorial to make your own dovetail knife:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMaking/art/markingKnife/markingKnife.asp

It could look like this ... Jarrah and Olive wood ....

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Markingknife-OliveandJarrah3.jpg

.... and one of my 1:7 markers .... in Tasmanian Blackwood and brass ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/dovetailsaddle.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Knodel]

Clearly your hand tools are in a league of their own, really impressive. Thanks for the links … some rather interesting information from all over. Nice to learn a little bit more about some recognized names such Mark Singer.

Brian

[Jim Becker]

Brian, your dovetails look great. And if I may, I'll suggest that in the odd chance that you haven't picked up on it yet, you can make dovetails with slight gaps appear completely perfect with a little bit of finagling with slivers of wood from the same stock you are working with. I really mean that any gaps will completely disappear. This even works with bigger boo-boos...re-cut the line with the two pieces assembled together and glue in a small (and I do mean small--the thickness of the saw kerf) piece of stock at a 45 degree angle to the joint to fill it up. I used this technique on my first "visible" hand-cut dovetails a couple years ago when I did a mantle cap for our large, walk-in fireplace. The reason I mention this is that most mere humans will have extreme difficulty in making a "perfect" joint every time. Something I've learned is that true craftspeople are not perfect, either...but they know how to fix things efficiently so that "perfection" is possible to achieve.

[Mark Singer]

Most issues are related to scribing or sawing. A good light source is eally helpful. It should be adjusted to show the scribe clearly. Scribing should be done only once and carefully. Sawing acurately in both planes is hard for many people and improves with time. They relly look pretty decent especially considering you are learning