Another 220v 20a Breaker Question

[glenn bradley]

I have found double space and single space 20a breakers. Other than taking half the room, the specs seem identical. Both allow each half to be used as a single pole 20a or a double pole 20a via a clip that latches the two "switches" together. Any thoughts?

http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/783643/783643256477sm.jpg (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12377-1318-Q230&lpage=none) http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/783164/783164085730sm.jpg (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=71984-76863-THQP230&lpage=none) For example only.

[Von Bickley]

Glenn,

That thin breaker will not give you 220 volts. It only hooks on to one side of your hot bus bar.

[Art Mann]

Von, you might want to verify your information there. I used two single width 240V, 20A breakers in my shop subpanel and they work fine. They are especially useful if you have a small box and need all the positions you can get.

[Jim Becker]

What Von said. The second one is for two 120v circuits in one panel space. There is a "double" version of that that gives you two 240v circuits in the space of one standard 240v breaker. Most folks advise against using these "compact" breakers if you can avoid it, however, as it's very easy to "over stuff" the panel. (I did use them temporarily in my original shop panel so I could get all my circuits installed, but reverted to standard breakers as soon as the large panel went in)

[Jim Becker]

Von, you might want to verify your information there. I used two single width 240V, 20A breakers in my shop subpanel and they work fine. They are especially useful if you have a small box and need all the positions you can get.

Art, if you look at the picture, you'll note that the smaller unit in the OP's post only contacts a single lug in the box. 240v requires the breaker to engage two adjoining lugs...one for each "hot".

[Von Bickley]

When I did electrical work, we would only use the thin-line breakers if we had to. Remodeling jobs or working with older panels.

[Dennis Ford]

I have some of both types in my panel. The small ones can do 240v if your panel is built to fit them. Beware that these require the two lugs to be connected to different hot legs and you might have to move a single pole breaker up or down one space in order to get the two pole unit to fit.

[Roy Wall]

When I did electrical work, we would only use the thin-line breakers if we had to. Remodeling jobs or working with older panels.


Art (and Jiim) -

I have a 200 amp GE Breaker Box for my house built new in 1994. It uses ALL of these thin line breakers.

I used the last two remaining spots to put in a 55amp twin breaker that runs to my subpanel in the garage using 6/3 wire. I even had an electrician hook it up and the only comment he had was the GE box was and Excellent box..........

I run all 220 out of this subpanel for my machines : 2-20 amp and 1-30 amp......... so are you saying my machines aren't getting 220v? How do they run then......?

I'm Confused?

[Lewis Cobb]

I'm a big fan of these dual breakers - my panels are loaded with them - the main one for the house and the sub one for the shop. There's no downside technically to using these - they work the same as the full slot ones - but there is an economic downside - they cost twice as much as a single breaker - :eek: - makes sense I suppose - I was somehow fooilishly thinking unconciously that I would get twice the capacity for the same money......I'm stund like that at times......

[Jim Kountz]

Art (and Jiim) -so are you saying my machines aren't getting 220v? How do they run then......?

I'm Confused?
They are getting 220v. The difference is that they pull it from the same "lug" instead of two and if used in this manner they should have the small pin installed that insures that they operate simultaneously. If not you could have one in the on and one in the off position at the same time which would not be a good thing at all!

Jim

[Jim Kountz]

Art, if you look at the picture, you'll note that the smaller unit in the OP's post only contacts a single lug in the box. 240v requires the breaker to engage two adjoining lugs...one for each "hot".

Not entirely true there Jim. Although its only connected to one lug the 110 is passed to BOTH of the terminals on the breaker thus if you connect both your hots (white and black) to the two terminals on these breakers you will then provide the machine with 220v. I have two in my box right now and running 220v machines. If the opposite were true my machines wouldnt work. Your reasoning for not doing this however is spot on, as people do tend to overload a box using the single space breakers. Overall your advice is good in that if you can avoid doing it dont.

[Rick Christopherson]

I have some of both types in my panel. The small ones can do 240v if your panel is built to fit them. Beware that these require the two lugs to be connected to different hot legs and you might have to move a single pole breaker up or down one space in order to get the two pole unit to fit.Batting .500 is great if you are a baseball player, but if you are giving electrical advice, it is not so good. Half the postings in this thread are incorrect. Dennis, on the other hand, has stated the information accurately and correctly. ;)

To add to Dennis' information, there are some panels where compact breakers can be used in only some positions while still spanning both phases in the panel. In other panels, all positions are available. In either case, as Dennis already pointed out, you may need to shift a single-pole breaker in order for the 2-pole breaker to span both bus bars.

[Jim Becker]

Ok...now I'm really confused. My understanding is that the two "hots" of US 240v are at oppositional phase...push/pull if you were. How can you get that off of only one lug? Something just isn't connecting here for me... :confused: Am I completely whacked in my thinking?????

{edit...posted at the same relative time to Rick's...and it seems my understanding is correct. It's interesting that there are some panels that handle things a little differently than mine. But not surprising. Variety is the spice of life}

[Rick Christopherson]

Actually Jim, in your last posting you are correct, but in your previous postings you were incorrect. (same for the other Jim too.)

Yes, in order to get 240 volts, the breaker must span both bus bars. You cannot get 240 volts with a compact breaker that has both terminals connected to the same bus (contrary to what Jim said). (I'm kinda having some fun with this whole Jim vs Jim thing.):D

I think what might be confusing some people here is that if you took out a single full-width, 2-pole breaker, and replaced it with two, compact, 2-pole breakers, then the compact breakers would not give you 240 volts. They would each be using a separate bus, but neither one would span both buses. This is where it is important to note the shifting of a single breaker position to get the correct connection.

[glenn bradley]

Glenn,

That thin breaker will not give you 220 volts. It only hooks on to one side of your hot bus bar.

Thanks Von and others. I should have made the 'For example only" text by the pics bigger. I do however, appreciate everyone looking out for me ;-)

Sounds like we have a mixed bag on opinions but I think I have the drift. Just to make it interesting there is also a quad breaker available for my box that employs 4 single pole 20a breakers in 2 slots of width to support 2 double pole 220v 20a circuits. This is accomplished through using the center two positions (standing on opposite bus bars) and the two outer positions (also standing on opposite bus bars) The center pair have a common trip and the outer pair have a common trip. I think I've got it(?).

[glenn bradley]

It's interesting that there are some panels that handle things a little differently than mine. But not surprising. Variety is the spice of life}

I have been fortunate enough to find that there is a WIDE array of box layouts and breakers to go with them. Sheesh, the things I take for granted until I have to work on them ;-).

[Rick Christopherson]

...there is also a quad breaker...The center pair have a common trip and the outer pair have a common trip.
... if you took out a single full-width, 2-pole breaker, and replaced it with two, compact, 2-pole breakers,...The quad breaker that you are describing is used to overcome the situation I was alluding to in my last posting. By having the outer breakers single pole and the center pair being 2-pole, it effectively offsets the 2-pole breaker to make it span the two bus bars.

[Art Mann]

The original question was whether or not you can get narrow breakers that will attach to both hot legs and give you 240V. The answer is "yes". I know that because that is what I use. I know a guy who solved a big problem with not having enough breaker positions in his subpanel by using these devices. These breakers are designed to contact both hot legs. Otherwise, you would only have no voltage difference between the two feed lines goingto the 240V devices and they wouldn't work. I don't understand the controversy.

Jim says that someone should refrain from using these breakers because it encourages overstuffing the panel. What is the problem with that? You will not overload the panel as a result because that is what the main breaker is for. If you have a 100A panel, you had better have a 100A or smaller main breaker in it or you are inviting trouble. You can overload a 100A panel with just two 50A breakers. The number of breakers is irrelevant. It is the nmber of devices drawing current at the same time that matters.

[Jim Kountz]

Well beind the stand up guy I am I can admit when I am wrong and so here goes. (patting himself on the shoulder) I do have the single space thin breakers and it is providing me 220 to my tools however when I moved it one space down from where it was.....Didnt work!! I guess when I installed it I just happen to have got it on the right spot the first time. Think of how frustrated I would have been trying to figure that out had I gotten it in the wrong one first.
And to the poster who referred to the Jim vs Jim thing, Im not in any kind of contest with Jim B at all, I just though we were both talking here. Jim B is one of the more knowledgeable people on this forum and always gives good solid advice I think. Heck take a look at the number of posts he has here trying to help others out. I respect the man myself.

Jim

[Jim Becker]

Actually Jim, in your last posting you are correct, but in your previous postings you were incorrect. (same for the other Jim too.)

I'm missing the mistake when I revisit them--please clarify just so I understand and learn from it...:o

In the first post I referenced the "double 240v" breakers I physically still have in a cardboard box somewhere in the shop. They fit in the same space as a regular 240v breaker, grab two bus poles and have two sets of tied switches so both sides of each circuit get killed at the same time. (your own post in #17 references these) In my second post, I called attention to the need for both buses to be engaged for a 240v breaker and that the picture of the second in the OP's post appears to only have one "slot" for bus connection...a single pole, if you will. (But of course Glenn does point out that there is a variety of methods used by different panel manufacturers and I'm only familiar with Siemens and compatible panels)

[Chris Friesen]

That thin breaker will not give you 220 volts. It only hooks on to one side of your hot bus bar.

You sure about that? If you click on the link it takes you to the Lowes site. The item in question is a `1/2" 30A double pole breaker", listed for 120/240V, of type "Compact THQP".

I live in Canada and have a Federal Pioneer panel. My 240V double-pole breakers are 1" wide.

[Rick Christopherson]

And to the poster who referred to the Jim vs Jim thing..... Sorry Jim (and Jim), that is not what I intended that to sound like. As I was typing my reply I had several references to "Jim" and others to "Jim" without properly identifying which one. It was just a joke, a play on names, but the meaning got edited out by the time I finished typing. I was only referring to the confusion with names that my posting originally had before it landed on the cutting room floor. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm missing the mistake when I revisit them--please clarify just so I understand and learn from it...:oIn your original posting you wrote:
What Von said. The second one is for two 120v circuits in one panel space....................

Art, if you look at the picture, you'll note that the smaller unit in the OP's post only contacts a single lug in the box.
Both allow each half to be used as a single pole 20a or a double pole 20a via a clip that latches the two "switches" together.Given what Von said and that you agreed with it, and also what the original poster said; it sounded like you were indicating that these breakers were incapable of providing 240 V service. They are GE breakers, and are rated for either 120 or 240 volt operation. If I am not mistaken, it is the GE panels (I have two of their models) where there is no limitation on where you can insert compact breakers so long as it is straddling the buses. All of my GE breakers in both panels are the compact type, including the single-pole breakers. Oh wait, I did retain the original 50-amp full size breaker for my range because it was the only type available when I installed the main load center during construction. Otherwise, everything else is compact.

[keith ouellette]

I know this is a couple of days old but I still wanted to chime in. When you have 4 motors pulling an average of 120v each are they not pulling a total of 480v or are they still only pulling a combined total of 120v. One bus must be able to supply more than 120v or you would not be able to use more than one 120v appliance at a time. It is the combined amp. that would trip the breaker or am I missing some fundamental electrical theory.

[Lewis Cobb]

I know this is a couple of days old but I still wanted to chime in. When you have 4 motors pulling an average of 120v each are they not pulling a total of 480v or are they still only pulling a combined total of 120v. One bus must be able to supply more than 120v or you would not be able to use more than one 120v appliance at a time. It is the combined amp. that would trip the breaker or am I missing some fundamental electrical theory.


Applicances draw current - not voltage.
All the appliances are in parallel on the same voltage - in this case 120V. The appliances each draw a certain amount of current (amps) and you total the amps to find out the total draw of all the appliances if they were to be on at the same time for example.

[keith ouellette]

Applicances draw current - not voltage.
All the appliances are in parallel on the same voltage - in this case 120V. The appliances each draw a certain amount of current (amps) and you total the amps to find out the total draw of all the appliances if they were to be on at the same time for example.

So by being in paralel only the current is multiplied and not the voltage. Is that what your saying. But each appliance being seperate doesn't each one need its own 120v macking the total amount of voltage being pulled from the source higher?

[Dave MacArthur]

Kieth, think of the electricity as water--the voltage is the "pressure" of the water coming out of the hose, the amperage is the amount. If your motors all had water wheels driving them, and a hose to spin them, your max pressure (voltage) would be from the height of the water tower at the end of your street (240v). No matter how many hoses you ran off your main line, you could never get higher pressure. What you do get, is a higher combined FLOW (amperage). And the amount of drag the water has going through the hose system, the friction, would be resistance (ohms). So, the total flow out the end of your hose can intuitively be seen the be related to the pressure(voltage) and the frictin (resistance).

You might think of the two hot busses as being one from a water tower with 10 psi push, and one from a SUCTION with 10 psi suction. In electricity, this is "phase". The neutral could be though of as just a large hose that would take the water from your motors and spill it out into your back yard. If you hooked either pressurized hose up with the neutral, yoiu'd get 10psi pressure (voltage) hey? (120volts). But if you hooked the high pressure hose and the suction hose to a waterwheel motor, then it would see a total of 20psi across it (240v).

The analogy doesn't hold up in all cases, but it is a good way to think of electricity while you're staring at the panel going "ok... now wait a second...".

[keith ouellette]

Kieth, think of the electricity as water--the voltage is the "pressure" of the water coming out of the hose, the amperage is the amount. If your motors all had water wheels driving them, and a hose to spin them, your max pressure (voltage) would be from the height of the water tower at the end of your street (240v). No matter how many hoses you ran off your main line, you could never get higher pressure. What you do get, is a higher combined FLOW (amperage). And the amount of drag the water has going through the hose system, the friction, would be resistance (ohms). So, the total flow out the end of your hose can intuitively be seen the be related to the pressure(voltage) and the frictin (resistance).

You might think of the two hot busses as being one from a water tower with 10 psi push, and one from a SUCTION with 10 psi suction. In electricity, this is "phase". The neutral could be though of as just a large hose that would take the water from your motors and spill it out into your back yard. If you hooked either pressurized hose up with the neutral, yoiu'd get 10psi pressure (voltage) hey? (120volts). But if you hooked the high pressure hose and the suction hose to a waterwheel motor, then it would see a total of 20psi across it (240v).

The analogy doesn't hold up in all cases, but it is a good way to think of electricity while you're staring at the panel going "ok... now wait a second...".

Now I understand. Your a good teacher. Thanx

[Randall Davis]

I have found double space and single space 20a breakers. Other than taking half the room, the specs seem identical. Both allow each half to be used as a single pole 20a or a double pole 20a via a clip that latches the two "switches" together. Any thoughts?

http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/783643/783643256477sm.jpg (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12377-1318-Q230&lpage=none) http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/783164/783164085730sm.jpg (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=71984-76863-THQP230&lpage=none) For example only.


the OPs pictured thin breaker will not provide 240 volts in any panel.

[Rob Russell]

the OPs pictured thin breaker will not provide 240 volts in any panel.

That's funny - it sure seems to provide 240v in my panel.

Imagine putting a single slimline breaker on each side of that, giving you a total of 4 slimline breakers. The middle pair and outer pair can each provide 240v. In fact, there are breakers sold like that (Murray makes some that fit the GE panels), where the inner pair are handle-tied and the outer pair are handle-tied.

[David G Baker]

The photo that Glenn posted stated that it was "for example only". The Slimline shown may not be a 240v breaker but it is very similar to the Murray and Siemens 240v breakers that I have in different panels in my buildings. The breaker shown looks like the combination 120/240v breaker that has a removable tab on the handle portion that allows the breaker to be used as two 120v breakers that are on different legs of the breaker box hot bars or 240v breaker with the tab in place. I also have double and quad Slimline 120/240v breakers in several locations as well.

[Randall Davis]

That's funny - it sure seems to provide 240v in my panel.

Imagine putting a single slimline breaker on each side of that, giving you a total of 4 slimline breakers. The middle pair and outer pair can each provide 240v. In fact, there are breakers sold like that (Murray makes some that fit the GE panels), where the inner pair are handle-tied and the outer pair are handle-tied.

I am well aware of the slim 240 volt breakers, but the one pictured in the OP is not one of them.
I did'nt know Murray breakers were approved for use in GE load centers. Better check your NEC!

[Rob Russell]

I did'nt know Murray breakers were approved for use in GE load centers. Better check your NEC!

Why do you say that?

[Chris Friesen]

the OPs pictured thin breaker will not provide 240 volts in any panel.

Click on the image, and it will take you to the Lowes site. Click on the "click to enlarge" and it's fairly obvious the breaker handles are tied together. Given that the description of the breaker is a "double pole breaker", I'd say it's fairly likely that it provides 240V.

[Tom Veatch]

Click on the image, and it will take you to the Lowes site. Click on the "click to enlarge" and it's fairly obvious the breaker handles are tied together. Given that the description of the breaker is a "double pole breaker", I'd say it's fairly likely that it provides 240V.

I think I agree. Description of the pictured breaker:

COMMON TRIP, THERMAL MAGNETIC
2 POLE
120/240 VAC
30 AMPERE

But isn't the controversy somewhat pointless? Compact breakers for 240v circuits certainly do exist. Can't we all just agree the picture represents one of that type whether the item pictured is actually one or not?

[Randall Davis]

Why do you say that?


I believe the NEC 110-3(b) reads something like this. "Listed or labeled equipment shall be used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling"

[Bill Brady]

This breaker will still need to connect to both phases of the incoming voltage, it will have to stradle the normal space two full size breakers took. This will leave a half space above and below this breaker. The need for this type of breaker came with the manufactured housing industry. Normally there is a breaker the size of a double pole breaker that allows you to get two 240v loades out, usually different amps ie 15/20 amp or 20/30 amp. These are available at Lowes.

[Dave MacArthur]

This thread needs some levity...

doesn't using this wee breaker violate some rule of electrical manliness?

[Rob Russell]

I believe the NEC 110-3(b) reads something like this. "Listed or labeled equipment shall be used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling"

But that doesn't preclude using breakers that are listed for use in a GE panelboard.

[Randall Davis]

But that doesn't preclude using breakers that are listed for use in a GE panelboard.


i dont know if it does or not you need to read the labeling on your GE panel board.

[Ed Beers]

If you only have one dual you aren't going to get 220V because both outputs are tied to the same bus bar in the panel. However, if you put two of them side by side, you can get 220V from the adjacent halfs. If you do this, you should install a bar or peg that locks both handles together so both sides trip together. The bars to tie the handles together should be available where you buy your breakers but maybe not if you are shopping at the borg.

You can also buy a quad (really two duals tied together) with the two center handles tied together at the factory. These will be marked something like 20A-30A-20A and will give you 20A @120V, 30A @240V, and 20A @120V.