New Shop Advice

[Ed Brady]

Luckily I stumbled on this forum and am really enjoying the great posts. Thanks!

For years I have used a Shopsmith Mark V and in spite of its limitations (and mine) I have made some pretty useful and nice stuff. I have just retired and also finally have a shop space of my own -- about 16x14 feet. Now that I have the dedicated space I want to buy a real table saw. In reading comments from you all it seems like I have some really good choices, but I'd still appreciate some advice. Options I am considering:

Steel City cabinet saw (not sure what model)
Older used saw such as Unisaw or Darra James
SawStop (if I can afford the huge cost -- plus they are big)
Other good quality saw like a Grizzly G1023SL

Tons of things to decide. What to buy. Where to buy. Fence. Accessories. Plus there may be options I haven't thought of. So I have an empty room (my current collection of tools is still in a corner of the garage) that I can arrange however I want. 230V is available. A clean slate.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts you more experienced folks would like to share.

Ed Brady

[Pat Germain]

Hi Ed.

First, it would be really cool if you do us all a favor and buy one of Steel City's new table saws with the optional granite top. We're all dying to hear firsthand about this granite top! ;) Steel City also makes a good saw.

FYI, I had a very good experience buying an 8" Shop Fox jointer from Bibb Tool. They offered free shipping. Between saving money on shipping, taxes and a very low price, I saved a bundle. Be sure to check out bibbtool.com and peruse their table saw selection. Give them a call if you have any questions. They are very nice folks.

FYI, Shop Fox and Grizzly are the same machines with different paint and logos. Shop Fox is supposed to be the brick-and-mortar store machine for Grizzly, but a few online stores sell them.

[Bert Johansen]

Ed, this is like buying a vehicle--each person will have his or her own needs and preferences, so your question is very difficult to really answer with any degree of appropriateness. Here's a suggestion: get a book on workshops. Several good ones are available--check out Taunton Press, for example. Read them from cover to cover--several times. Make some assumptions about your preferences. Are you going to use a lot of hand tools like chisels & planes, saws, and the like? Many of us have opted to go with a room full of machinery, and that's because there is so much in the way of powered equipment that makes life (and quality woodworking) easier and less tedious.

Next, lay out your shop on paper. Your garage is relatively small, so consider using mobile bases so you can stow machines (jointer, bandsaw, planer, belt sander, router table, lathe, scroll saw, grinder, drill press) when they aren't in use. And yes, you will most likely want to own each of the above, in addition to your table saw, if you want to do serious work. And this doesn't count your workbench and perhaps an assembly table, storage cabinets, lumber storage, etc.

Where will you keep your lumber? It is good practice to bring lumber into the shop for a few months before beginning a project to allow the wood to acclimatize to the shop. You will need lots of light, mucho power outlets, and heat and A/C for comfort.

I also suggest you subscribe to a few woodworking magazines. They can be a great resource for a newbie as well as professionals. And, of course, the wonderful folks on "the Creek" are always available to share their thoughts if and when you have a thorny issue to solve. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. We love pictures!

[John Ricci]

I hear you Ed, I have a heated 20'x30'x10' shop and I am still using my Shopsmith (I have pretty much the whole 9 yards of their stuff) for a lot of its functions but I am waiting for the friend my late father sold his Unisaw to, to decide he needs to hang it up. He has already done himself a nasty tablesaw injury in the past, he's getting older and he knows I want that saw back someday! Even with the space I have, I still worry about having room for it. My biggest problem is that I have two of almost everything in my shop since my dad passed away.

Bert seems to have covered a lot of bases in his post and I couldn't agree more with his opinions on light, electrical outlets and heat...especially the outlets. Most of us do the "one man band" in our shops but could always use more power outlets. Good luck and have fun building the shop.

J.R.

[Phillip Sisson]

Hi Ed

Like you I'm really glad I found this forum, I have two Shopsmiths and use them both but this summer I went on a saw quest and it was either a Delta or a Powermatic. I settled on the Powermatic 2000, and its been my workhorse since. It lets me use the Shopsmiths for dado;sanding;bandsaw and all the other setups their made for.
For safety; quality; and features the 2000 is a choice to consider.

Phillip

[keith ouellette]

I have seen some of the older uni saws and they are great. When I was shopping for a saw I looked at the delta at woodcraft and looked it over very well and copared it to a jet exacta. I could not see where the extra money went for the delta (please no one get mad) and in some repects the jet was better. The manager practically begged me to take the delta and lowered the price on it twice. My jet 3hp cabinet saw is the only tool I have bought that worked right out of the box with no problems. My Grizzly paralel table jointer is working well now after a lot of adjustments. If your looking for a jointer try to go paralel.

[Carroll Courtney]

Ed,welcome to this forum.I too found this place about a yr ago and have learn lots from others.Each person here has their own opinions on what table saw they would want,have,buy.To me, each person is correct.I think that most are good saws,some are better than others.With my budget in mine,I would have to go with a used saw.Sure,its fun to open a big box and be the very first one to use a new saw.But,I just don't think that a new saw can hold a candle to the older Delta's or older PM66.I just can't see these new saws being a collectors tool,where as the Unisaw's and the PM66 are.Buying one of these older saws will save money and resale will only go up.You can check the local paper or CL or your local woodworking place for a hookup.Part of the fun is looking! Good Luck and hope to see some pics.

[Darren Ford]

Ed, I'm going to offer a suggestion that might seem sacrilegious. But considering your size constraints, I wonder if you might like a Festool or equivalent guide system instead of a table saw. I guess it comes down to what you will be doing, but cutting down 4x8 sheet goods is going to be tough in that space, I think you will probably be rough cutting them with a circular saw anyway. I think I remember Frank Pellow saying he wasn't going to have a table saw in that nice big shop he built a couple of years ago.

I guess my thinking is that with a circular saw guide system, and some of the other stationary tools that you will probably want anyway, you might be able to get by without the table saw hogging all of your space. It sounds like you have got along well without so far anyway. It all depends on the type of projects you plan to tackle I suppose.

Good luck whatever direction you take.

[Ed Brady]

Thanks very much for the responses. You've given me some good things to think about. The Festool table deserves a closer look and I'll get some books to help planning. I'll post an update.

EDB

[jason lambert]

I primarly use the festool system, it is just safer and actually faster in most cases not to mention saves alot of room in my gurage. However a good table saw is nice I like the SawStop the best and the steel city.

[Dick Sylvan]

My shop is only 16x18 and I was space constrained. Since I knew the space wasn't going to get any bigger I decided to consolidate my power tools and purchased a Hammer combination machine, selling off my TS, jointer, and planer. This is one option to consider if it is within your budget.

[Daryl Holtrop]

I have a 12' x 20' with a utility room 5' x 5' and heater and hot water tank on one side. I had a full size jet contractor ts and jet band saw and grizzly drill press. I sold them and bought a shopsmith with bandsaw, jointer and a shopsmith joint-matic. I have made more furniture since changing to shopsmith than ever before. I have room to assemble my projects inside rather moving outside. I have not come up with any limitations as of yet. Sure I wouldn't mind having a small ts like a dewalt or bosch but it would only help for bevel cuts. I made a router table that goes in the accessory end. Here are some of my most recent projects.

Also I have to tell you this story. One time mabey 20 years ago or so I was in woodcraft looking or I should say drooling over tools when I one of the workers there where talking about shopsmiths, soon others came over and where putting the shopsmith down (even though they sold them at woodcraft at the time). Well the worker who owned the shopsmith told about the projects he had done and was doing and asked others what they had done and there was silence. There were a lot of fancy tools in there shops that were just collecting dust (not sawdust). I learned then that its not the tool its the craftsman.

[John Browne]

Welcome to the forum! I'm pretty new myself, and have found this and other WW forums and resources on the web invaluable as I contemplated and researched new tool purchases. Maybe you can benefit a bit from my work. Here's a brief summary of the state of modern machinery :)

Virtually all WW machines are made in Asia today--the ones made in Taiwan as opposed to PRC seem to be the premium brands/models. Delta may still make the Unisaw in the US; I'm sure someone will pipe up and set me straight on that one...

Powermatic moved their manufacturing offshore in 2000 (I have a 1999 PM66--great saw).

Jet is the value brand for Powermatic; SHop Fox is the same as Grizzly, except they are sold through dealers so there is a markup compared to the same unit from Grizzly. Steel City is a new company started by people who used to work at WMH (powermatic) and elsewhere. I think they are trying to be the inovators in the industry.

General is another good brand "General" is made in Canada; "General International" is made in China. Guess which costs more?

Grizzly makes some great equipment and typically can offer it at a significant discount compared to other brands that have some dealer markup; downside is there are only three showrooms where you can see the merch, but supposedly if you call they'll find you an owner near where you live that you can contact. They have excellent customer service. (I have three pieces of Griz gear).

Festool seems to be trying to re-invent woodworking: they have a interesting focus on systemized tools that inter-work as well as providing much of the capability of a cabinet shop in a mobile set of hand-held tools. When I learned that people routinely use their FEstool circular saw to rip boards and then edge glue them without further milling I was blown away. Festool also excels in providing outstanding dust collection with their tools. Everybody sells Festool for the same price (sounds illegal, doesn't it?)

SawStop makes what appears to be an excellent TS with the blade-brake feature. However, the cost is draw-dropping and it's a really big saw--so's the PM 2000. The Grizzly 1023 appears to be an excellent saw with a significant price advantage over similar saws. The mobile bases that Grizzly sells (Shop Fox) are garbage. I regret buying two of them. In a small shop you might want to make everything mobile and keep it tucked out of the way. HTC makes really good mobile bases.

HTH.

John

[Norman Hitt]

Ed, I think I remember Frank Pellow saying he wasn't going to have a table saw in that nice big shop he built a couple of years ago.
Good luck whatever direction you take.

Just to keep the record straight, :D Darren, you're correct, Frank did say that, Buuuuuuuuut.........as much as he loves his FesTools, he put a General, (650 IIRC) in his shop after all.:D

Ps: Ed, if you happen across an older PM 66, (especially, with a Biesemeyer fence), I sure wouldn't pass it up. (this from a very satisfied PM 66 owner for the last 17 years)

[Ed Blough]

Luckily I stumbled on this forum and am really enjoying the great posts. Thanks!

For years I have used a Shopsmith Mark V and in spite of its limitations (and mine) I have made some pretty useful and nice stuff. I have just retired and also finally have a shop space of my own -- about 16x14 feet. Now that I have the dedicated space I want to buy a real table saw. In reading comments from you all it seems like I have some really good choices, but I'd still appreciate some advice. Options I am considering:

Steel City cabinet saw (not sure what model)
Older used saw such as Unisaw or Darra James
SawStop (if I can afford the huge cost -- plus they are big)
Other good quality saw like a Grizzly G1023SL

Tons of things to decide. What to buy. Where to buy. Fence. Accessories. Plus there may be options I haven't thought of. So I have an empty room (my current collection of tools is still in a corner of the garage) that I can arrange however I want. 230V is available. A clean slate.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts you more experienced folks would like to share.

Ed Brady


Ed I second the advice to check out Festool. I too have a Shopsmith that I'm very happy with but I have consided buying Festools to supplement the Shopsmith. I think the two machines complement each other and both allow you to have room enough in your shop to construct projects.

The more I see the capabilities of the Festool and the more people I hear getting rid of their tablesaw in favor of the guided saw systems I get more and more convinced this is the way of the future.

Big tools manufactures are in a real financial crisis and many aren't going to come out and I think this is going to force the major changes in how we do woodworking. The time is coming when people simply will not commit to the huge financial outlays to build and stock a traditional shops.

Go into any Lowes Home Depot, Sears or other large retailer of woodworking tools and see what saws are selling and which aren't. The jobsite and small portable saws are going out like hot cakes while the bigger shop and cabinet saws are not moving at all. I think as the guided saw systems catch on this will even change the equation more.

Locally I see production shops and even wholesalers converting to guided saw systems which are ideal for sheet stock and solid counter top materials. Plus when I asked about this they always say they got a huge reduction in their liability insurance getting rid of the tablesaw and/or radial arm saws. Now I hear OSHA is giving the nod to the excellent dust collection included in most of these systems.

If I was you I would strongly consider check Festool out.

[Stan Smith]

I just moved from a 20x24 shop to a 1 car garage. I couldn't bear to give up my Jet TS with a 52" extension. Had I not already had it, I would have bought a contractor's saw. Truth be told, I use my scms Makita about as much as my ts. I am adding a router to the extension on the ts though. I just built a fliptop tool cart (plan on Wood Online) for my portable jointer and planer. It is hard to downsize and it has taken me quite a bit of planning and re-arranging things a few times which I know will be an ongoing process. Try not to rush things if you can. FWIW

Stan

[Kent E. Matthew]

I will have a small shop as well. I planned to position the table saw right in front of double doors. That way I can run sheet and long 1x material right out the open doors.

[Paul Hendrickson]

The '05 Fine Woodworking shop issue had a fabulous article on a shop built by a retired engineer. He built all his tools into a central island, so that each tool shared the same worksurface. It was an incredibly efficient design, and one that would allow you to have a workbench and your shopsmith on an outside wall, and all your stationary tools in the island. I have just moved and have a 25 x 35 barn and yet I am considering his design just from the efficiency standpoint. MUCH shorter dust collection runs, and it will give me lots of neander space. It is issue # 181 if you are interested.

[Darren Ford]

What a neat concept Paul. I found a video that shows the system in operation

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopArticle.aspx?id=23974

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ed, I have exactly the same size shop as yours, and have a General 650 cabinet saw with Excalibur overarm guard, on a mobile base.

The saw has a 32 inch rip capacity, which is plenty for me as I work almost exclusively in solid wood.

I added a folding outfeed table to the saw to improve safety when working with sheet goods or longer pieces.

If I were to do it again, I'd buy a Saw stop cabinet saw. The Saw stop safety improvement would be the deciding factor for me, as I cannot fit a format saw in my shop.

I went to the cabinet saw from a contractor saw, the cabinet saw takes up less space, and works so much better. I know that many use a contractor saw, I wasn't satisfied with it, and many use a guided saw system, which I didn't think was as convenient for my type of work.

I primarilly build Arts and Crafts stuff, which involves a lot of thick hardwood, and a lot of tenons, both of which the cabinet saw does well.

Good hunting..................Regards, Rod.